As for the popular opinion on dots. They have potential, add in things like thundercloud style procs, mismatched durations or range/aoe considerations. Easy busywork to keep track of that breaks up the 1111 monotony with a dash of unpredictability. There’s more to than just slapping a second dot on and leaving it at that FYI.
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03-20-2023, 09:49 PMSebazy
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03-20-2023, 09:55 PMRilifane
Barbie Ex, hands down.
I think this "casuals can't have more incoming damage, too difficult" falls apart the moment you stop thinking that what was done in Abyssos is the only way to do it.
Not to mention that casuals are not stupid. What mainly separates them from highend raiders is that they panic more easily, have a tendency to play reactively and to forget strong cooldowns/ holding them for emergency.
Abyssos increased incoming damage by channelling all the extra damage into massive hits with huge gaps between them.
This caused several problems:- it is now more a mitigation check than a heal check because your priority is surviving the initial hit, not healing through it. The gaps are big enough that it doesn't matter how you heal it and how much time you take
- this in turn pushed the responsibility for surviving them AWAY from healers and on tanks/ dps because a single mitigation was never enough to survive e.g. Ruby Glow, Hemitheos Dark, Light of Life etc.
- it also enforced bringing a SGE and/ or SCH as both WHM and AST don't have enough mitigation to reliably cover the hits
- which in turn gave the rest of the party an easy way out by saying "y no gcd shield? :c" for failing the hard requirement
- hard hits are far more restricting in how you initially deal with them as they require higher HP thresholds in AND stacking mitigation/ shields to survive
- which in turn also causes them to cause panic from healers more easily
- gear alleviates the reliance on the rest of the party, removing the sense of danger and turning them into regular, random "moves HP to left" hits - but the long gaps remain, making dealing with them incredibly boring and leaving long downtimes
- it pushes for a very strict spreadsheet and timetable approach as surviving is the only concern here
- it has almost no room for error since the hits are designed to kill you; any heal spam will not help you pass a binary mitigation check
What people criticized about the Abyssos approach was disguising "more healing" as hard, binary mitigation checks that enforced a reliance on people who until now had no reason to put Feint, Addle or Heart of Light etc. on their hotbars let alone use it. If the party wiped because they didn't stack enough mitigation (and I want to stress that you needed to stack mitigation, a single Reprisal was not enough), the focus turned on the barrier healer and "y no gcd shields?".
Naturally, many people were displeased with the result of "moar damage". If you implement something poorly than it's not the system itself that is bad, it's the execution.
So interpreting the Abyssos-approach getting a lot of criticism as more incoming damage not being a viable and casual-friendly solution is flawed because it was poorly executed.
Consistent but lower damage has several advantages:- it's a true heal check as healing can be used as the only solution to it
- the responsibility largely remains with healers while tanks and dps can play a supporting role but they are not a hard requirement to solve it
- it makes all comps equally viable, full stop. WHM/ AST no longer has a signifcant weakness over regen/ barrier or even double barrier
- consistent but lower damage offers multiple solutions: mitigation, shielding, regen and burst healing. All are equally viable and contribute equally as opposed to creating a "mitigation/ shield > raw healing" divide
- it is less prone to causing panic as there's no wild HP bar ping-ponging
- gear makes healing itself easier but keeps the consistent engagement for that part of your role
- it allows more flexibility for when you use skills and more dynamic gameplay overall
- it has more room for error because GCD heal spam is a viable solution to make up for mistakes
Increasing damage in all content is viable for both highend raiders and casuals.
But channelling it all into unforgiving mitigation checks isn't. -
03-20-2023, 11:58 PMForsakenRoeTrue and real, big real and big true, couldn't have said it better myself. I even at one point did have a situation in P8S where we died to DogJumps, when I put out Shield and Kerachole. First line in chat after the wipe? 'Did you use shields SGE' Yes, thank you, I did, and a Kerachole to make sure. What wasn't used, however, was a Feint or a Reprisal, you might wanna double check who's using those and at what times. It's sad that the 'mit > everything' format of Abyssos meant that the first assumption from everyone when a wipe happened was that the barrier healer didn't do their job, and it's doubly sad that because of how recent it was, people assume that 'more healing required' immediately just means 'Abyssos everything'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
Look back at any final tier Savage fight's enrage. Ion Efflux, Tumult/Earthen Fury, double Akh Morn (3 sets), Quietus detonations/Shockwave Pulsars, Curtain Call. It wasn't just 'mit this hit or eat shit', it also had smaller, faster hits in between that had the dual effect of forcing you to reapply shields, and pump HPS to counter the steady HP drain they were causing, before the next 'big hit' came in. Guarantee, if E12S had no Quietus hits, and just Shockwave Pulsar once every 15 seconds with nothing in between, it'd have been considered an absolute joke to deal with even at min ilvl. But that's kinda what Abyssos HAD, just with a bleed attached to some of the hits. Aionagonia is just Pulsar with a bleed, and Dominion is, admittedly slightly interesting in that it is Physical and therefore means we had to think about when to use Heart/Missionary/Fey Illum.
People didn't find Barb EX hard on release because the damage is overwhelming per se. They were surprised by the speed it came out at, because FFXIV doesn't usually DO that kind of speed. And I'd say it's telling that so many players reacted positively to it (the speed). Also, as Ril says, lower, more frequent hits, allow for 'pure healing' to be a solution, whereas 'this deals 130% of your HP' only allows for 'mitigate or die'. And I have to say, I'm kinda onboard with anything that breaks down the disastrous 'pure/barrier' split we have. Imagine a world where it's equally possible that WHM AST takes world first as SCH SGE, or WHM SGE, or AST SCH, or whatever comp. -
03-21-2023, 12:14 AMIedarusIt does boggle the mind; if Barbie Ex was so well received, why did SE do what they did with Rubi Ex? How did we go from high paced chaotic damage where the healers are ACTUALLY HEALING to the boss sitting there with his thumb up his arse for 45 seconds while we mash 1? I've yet to try Barbie Ex but man I was flabbergasted when I watched a video on it. "Wait...was that...an AOE auto attack!?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
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03-21-2023, 05:09 AMRenathrasThere are two problems with this scenario:Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
1) In the more DPS scenario, now the party wipes because they didn't meet the enrage check when the casual player dropped their DoTs and DPS rotation.
2) In the "more healing" universe, the casual player shifts to spamming more GCD heals while the hardcore player would be using their oGCD toolkit more fully and sprinkling a some GCD heals into the mix. The whole reason we have the GCD heals right now (in theory) is as backups in case you run out of oGCD resources. Take P5S, for example. You can deal with the bleeds by using Regen (a GCD) and some oGCD. If you burned all your oGCDs and Lilies, you can fall back on Cure 2. This system works because the hardcore player can be efficient while the casual player isn't outright punished, they just are quicker to fall back on the "easy to use" tools. MP is so free that it's not an actual limiting factor.
The only way the more DPS buttons isn't unfriendly to casuals is if the amount of increased damage is negligible. "Yeah, you have a second DoT! It does...10 more potency than Glare! Woo!" Where it's so negligible dropping it isn't going to make or break any clears.
As for old Ultimates: That's already true. WHM doesn't get its first semi-spamable on the move heal until Afflatus Solace. While Ultimates require more care than "use on CD", Assize and Asylum are still not up all the time, and Tetra is single target. Moreover, many of those GCD heals have 1.5 sec cast times, allowing for ample slidecasting, a skill Ultimate raiders can't get by with not having. But if that was REALLY an issue, we could just make it where casting heals does not break on movement and the problem's solved. Or conversely, make all GCD heals instant cast like Lilies. I'm sure you'll reject all of those, but those would settle the issue.
And as you note, this is ALREADY a problem with old Ultimates, and hasn't been this huge issue garnering national attention or Dev changes. So it seems unreasonable to suggest that a change would force it to when it already is a problem that is already unaddressed.
Probably Abyssos. I haven't seen anyone in the replies mention Barbaricca. I know a lot of hardcore players like Barbaricca, but it was murder in PF after week 1. Though part of that might have been the pretty punishing body check with the stack + 2 meteors bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Are you at all familiar with the concept of the "day crowd" and "night crowd" relating to the Jesus story? Not a religious thing, but the concept? The idea is that Jesus seemed to be beloved by the people, then all the sudden, they were demanding his execution. The theory goes "well, they were two different groups of people". Basically, the normal people out in the daytime loved him, but the aristocrats and elites out at night and their hangers-on hated him.
I think there's a similar concept here where the hardcore and high end raiding community likes certain things but the playerbase as a whole isn't in agreement.
But we all play the same game. So the way to handle the problem is to make the differences in the kinds of content we clear (something not shared) not in the Jobs (something shared). That is, if they add a DPS rotation to WHM, that DOES affect everyone. Remember Cleric stance? Remember casual Healers getting witched at for not using it (and hardcores getting witched at FOR using it)?
On the other hand, if the change is to CONTENT, that's far less of a problem. For example, if P9S is made like Barbaricca and Ex6 is made like Ex2 (granted, Hyd was a bit harder than the normal launch Ex) and normal/MSQ is made like it always is, then everyone wins, since the content doesn't bleed over. Savage isn't MSQ pushover easy and midcore Extremes aren't Savage hard, and people aren't witching at each other for using or not using their full DPS toolkit.
We are (I think...?) in agreement that damage should be more consistent and not 10 second of huge spike then 60 seconds of downtime. -
03-21-2023, 05:15 AMRenathrasI'm not sure if BarbEx was as well received by the general playerbase as it was by the hardcore playerbase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iedarus
Extremes are the closest thing the game has to a step between Normal and Savage at this point, and something that mid-core players tend to treat as most of their endgame. I didn't do any Savages (at level) until EW, but Extremes have been my endgame since SB, and I'd probably be classified as a mid-core player. BarbEx was really too rough for most PF groups. RubEx may be a bit TOO soft, but Barb was definitely more than a lot of people at that skill/content level could consistently handle.
EW Extremes have been REALLY hit and miss this entire expansion. ZodEx was rather easy as long as you had a good danger dorito, though the stupid snakes still get most people (something about that specific type of pattern recognition and projection with the camera angle of the game makes it difficult for a lot of people). HydEx was roughly P1S level of difficulty. While P1S was easy for a Savage, HydEx was more or less near-Savage or low-end-Savage level of difficulty at current gear levels. Bluebird was kind of in a weird place, then Barbie was again at Savage level (which is why Savage raiders liked it so much - it was a Savage fight that was a bit more random than most Savage fights), and then we get RubEx which is at or below ZodEx level and once again has a strong danger dorito showing.
Extreme difficulties have been all over the place. -
03-21-2023, 07:19 AMSebazyI'm not really sure how you can actually put that down as a valid point TBH. Name one piece of casual player friendly content in recent years where an otherwise entirely average but competent group wouldn't be able to clear if they had a healer that wasn't DPSing at all. The only one I can think of is E8S, and that's most certainly not casual player content even if it wasn't exactly the most difficult Savage turn either. If someone can do Lights Rampant in PF, I suspect they can maintain dots too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
To further expand on this point - Having more of a healer's DPS come from dots vs nukes actually makes things more forging and less impactful. Reapplying your dot a GCD late is much less impactful than missing a Glare GCD. I did a fairly in depth breakdown on this in another thread some time ago. Let me see if I can find it.
BarbEX is actually a more interesting case study than many seem to realise.Quote:
I'm not sure if BarbEx was as well received by the general playerbase as it was by the hardcore playerbase.
The big kicker is that if you look at the numbers, RubiEX is actually a bigger heal check on the 2 occasions where it genuinely requires healing. It also spaces the group out around the arena at this point making it difficult to reach people. If SE just cut out the portal puzzles it would actually be a pretty respectable healer check IMO, but as is, it just allows you to dump all your big cooldowns and lolstomp the aoe output without really thinking about it.
Meanwhile, BarbEX gets the thumbs up from me not because it hits especially hard because frankly it doesn't. Where it wins out however is the pace of the fight. It feels hectic, it doesn't have huge long sections of downtime with big nothing burger animations and sequences. Instead it's just relentlessly chipping away at you and it feels great for it.
It's the same secret sauce that makes fights like TitanEX so beloved IMO. -
03-21-2023, 08:56 AMRenathrasAre we talking about casual players or casual content? Because no one's going to be worried about healing OR damage in normal modes or MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I'm talking about "casual player in the content where the extra healing would matter".
The big problem with BarbEx isn't the damage, which is pretty consistent. It's that the damage spikes themselves are a bit too high (it's really frustrating when you get paired with THAT healer - the one who you say "You use your big CD on 1/2 Knuckledrumb and I'll use mine on the other" and they reply with "No, I'm using mine when I want to!!"), but it's more that the damage comes in while also not allowing any stationary time. This means you can't actually hardcast (GCD) heals. You can ONLY heal by oGCDs. Which makes it fantastic for people that love oGCD healing and miserable for everyone else.
Hell, I like some oGCD healing, but it really sucked a lot because I'd often get a PF hero Healer who did not and just wasn't pulling their weight, and since the fight was so mobile, I couldn't make up the difference with my GCD heals because I couldn't use them. And THEN the body checks become a problem.
Though it is kind of amusing the color sections later aren't body checks, so if you have just a Tank and Healer up, you can potentially get a Healer LB3 in and only the two of you are actually having to deal with any mechanic during the "quiet" phase.
BarbEx was a fight that works great if you have a Static/coordinated team (e.g. like Savages/Ultimates), but works poorly until you way over gear it if you're trying to PF it with randoms. Which is why it was murder after Week 1 since all the Raiders had cleared it and weren't running clear parties, so you got all the people who...........aren't that...in your PF groups until you could edge out your clear.
There's a part of me that thinks Ex5 should have an "Ultra" version where he keeps doing mechanics during the maze section, since that would be a pretty crazy fight if you were having to deal with other things at the same time as the maze game.
I'll also note:
One of the big pushback answers I've seen some of in the survey (often from WHM players, go figure) are people complaining about "busywork for the sake of busywork". People saying they don't like "busywork", and don't understand people that want it, and don't want it themselves. People want meaningful buttons to press, but not buttons "so they can feel busy". This is also the number one complaint about AST that I've seen overall, that it has too much busywork/feels too busy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I'll also had thundercloud style procs aren't bad, though I'll reiterate for the 100th time that the native client - for all of us who don't use add-ons - does NOT have a good way of telling when something has proced, especially if you have a HD monitor with high res, even with the buttons at 200% size on the bottom of your screen, where hotbars are normally kept. Play WoW and when something procs, even in the native client, you have flashing graphics all over your screen. Frost Mage will have some big ice formation somewhere around the center of their screen, Holy Priests will have white-gold slashes, etc. In FFXIV, when something procs, you get a tiny buff that forms at your character and drifts down (easy to miss if you're paying attention to literally ANYTHING else on your screen) and a tiny lit up border around a button that is also tiny on the bottom of your screen, which is also easy to miss, and USUALLY a tiny little icon that appears in your relatively small Party frame by your character's health bar. I'd like procs better if the HUD displayed them more prominently without you having to sumo wrestle it into vague submission.
On the other hand, mismatched duration DoTs is one of the worst things to do. They're one of the hardest things to keep track of - DoTs in general are because of how you can't get the native HUD to show them off by themselves somewhere to make them easy to track or see when they've fallen off (a tiny icon with even tinier green number that's only a shade off from being the same white as all the other tiny icons with tiny numbers) under a boss health bar doesn't really help. Having multiples and with different durations would not be "Easy busywork to keep track of". I would argue DoTs are the hardest thing possible to keep track of. Even self-buffs are easier to track since you at least always know right where those are and can see them in both your Party list and on the top of your own screen (which you CAN easily move to somewhere it's highly visible without trading off important information - you can't do this with DoTs because if you enable "show only my buffs/debuffs on the target", you lose important information like when party debuffs from other players are on the boss that you need to know about, like Addle or Chain Strategem). In fact, the number one source of damage lost by casual players is their DoTs falling off.
DoTs are probably the most un-casual friendly form of DPS, and it's really weird to me how hardcore players don't understand that... Not saying you specifically, but I've seen a lot of hardcore players VERY MUCH overestimate how easy DoT tracking and reapplication is, but when you look at low parsing players, outside of "Not ABC", DoT falloff seems to be the biggest lost damage output source, indicating it's hard for lower skilled players to do. It's probably the big reason in the damage variance of Old SMN being so wide (massive gap between the 1% and 99% player moreso than any other Job) since it was so heavily DoT focused.
Multiple DoTs with different durations are VERY exciting for players that want to juggle a lot of plates and be extremely busy.
But those aren't casual players, generally speaking. -
03-21-2023, 09:26 AMAravell
I'm genuinely curious what piece of content that a casual player would engage in also has a check so strict that the healers can barely drop GCDs on.
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03-21-2023, 10:34 AMSebazyI assume you're referring to casual players yeah. When is said casual player ever going to see an enrage where the healer fumbling their DPS rotation will make the difference between enrage and a clear? Rather than viewing it in a negative light, consider tweaks that would make more sense. Why would anyone add a 10 potency dot? Do you genuinely think that's what people want or that Yoshida will impliment? (Mind you, never say never with SE!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The solution is to chuck more potency on the extra kit and then quietly nerf MND scaling so overall DPS stays about the same but people don't get outraged over something else taking a nerf. Endwalker has already demonstrated this with how severely healer single target DPS regressed relative to other roles despite potency going up but very few people cared.
Re BarbEX, Knuckledrum does about 700k raid wide over 15 seconds, RubiEX's Inferno does about 1.2 mill over 30 seconds, however people spend a lot of that at max range and out of reach for Indom etc. RubiEX is actually spikier with fewer but bigger hits vs Knuckle being more akin to rapid smaller AOEs with one big hit. The key reason why Inferno is a snore and Knuckledrum is great is the pace, both in how little time it gives you to setup but also exactly as you mention, you can't just bank all your CDs for it.
Agreed on an EX5 ultra, stopping the puzzle phases from being a target dummy once you learnt the pattern would have transformed the fight into something much better.
As things are I use a jumbo scale vertical pair of unbound hotbars that place important cooldowns and procs right next to where my character is on screen. As you say, hotbars off in Narnia aren't great for tracking things, but icons next to your character? That's the good stuff. However the ideal solution would be for SE to integrate key procs into a visual effect on the job gauge.Quote:
I'll also had thundercloud style procs aren't bad, though I'll reiterate for the 100th time that the native client - for all of us who don't use add-ons - does NOT have a good way of telling when something has procced
Perhaps this is something that will improve now that Yoshida has accepted that they need to take better inspiration from various plugin tweaks such as enlarged dot and debuff icons and clearer timers. Good use of focus target also really helps in this regard.Quote:
On the other hand, mismatched duration DoTs is one of the worst things to do. They're one of the hardest things to keep track of - DoTs in general are because of how you can't get the native HUD to show them off by themselves somewhere to make them easy to track or see when they've fallen off (a tiny icon with even tinier green number that's only a shade off from being the same white as all the other tiny icons with tiny numbers) under a boss health bar doesn't really help.
I'm glad you said this as I managed to dig up some math I did a few years ago on this exact topic. Having a larger portion of your damage come from Dots relative to your nukes actually raises the skill floor and lowers the skill ceiling when it comes to overall DPS. The TLDR is that dropping GCDs or simply spending more GCDs healing vs DPSing hurts a more dot centric job less than it does a more nuke centric job. It's much easier to do a reasonable job of maintaining dots than it is to min max GCDs on Glare. Have a closer look at those bottom percentiles of SMN back in the day, I'd assume they were just players that were mashing ruin2 because they didn't care and weren't interested in doing any more than that. You can't really balance anything around that sort of player.Quote:
DoTs are probably the most un-casual friendly form of DPS, and it's really weird to me how hardcore players don't understand that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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03-21-2023, 03:42 PMRenathrasYou misunderstand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
My point is that if there's a significant DPS difference between "barely doing the rotation" and "doing the rotation optimally", that's going to cause problems for Jobs that don't have red icons. The only way to have "more damage buttons" and "a more interesting damage rotation" THAT IS FRIENDLY TO CASUALS - the supposed reason we should add more damage buttons instead of upping the healing requirement - is if the DPS gap for dropping those extra buttons is negligible. Otherwise, you aren't doing it for the casuals, you're doing it for the hardcores to chad on the casuals.
Which is fine, if that's the argument you'd want to have. My issue is more people being...less than honest...about their intents.
Or, maybe, they genuinely do believe that it would be easier for casuals to juggle 3 DoTs with different timers and keep near 100% upkeep on them than to have fights where they have to press Medica 2 four times a minute and a Cure 2 or Regen in there to taste. I can't imagine HOW anyone would believe that, but maybe some people do...
EDIT:
Oh yeah, totally agreed. There needs to be something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Unfortunately, that ONLY works for procs. DoTs are still something impossible to make easy to track unless they completely redo the way enemy bars are displayed, especially for multi-target fights. Maybe have that "SCH shield breaking" sound effect or something when one falls off...something like that would at least alert to "Oh yeah, check your DoTs." -
03-21-2023, 05:01 PMSebazySo wait hang on a second....Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
We have 2 casual fights for mr casual Timmy:
Fight A) Timmy is maintaining 3 dots. Timmy fails. He gets some grey logs. The boss takes a few seconds longer to die. Nobody cares.
Fight B) Timmy has to maintain Medica II uptime (aka 4 times a minute) as well as some single target healing ala Cure 2 or Regen. Timmy fails to do it. People die. The boss takes significantly longer to die and everyone's angry.
Do you not see how awful your example is? Are you seriously trying to tell me that example B is better for a casual player that's going to struggle to press ~6 buttons a minute than option A? Or are you trying to suggest that there's a way to make us have to press medica II 4 times without the damage killing us when we don't?
I legitimately mean it. You keep saying repeatedly that it's a bad thing if this casual player has the potential to fail at dealing damage, yet that's exactly what we have now and you almost never see people complaining about it until it gets to extremes which have such lenient DPS checks that Healer DPS still isn't a requirement whatsoever unless the rest of the group is pretty damn bad. Why is a non issue suddenly going to become a problem? Are you assuming that SE are going to suddenly allow parser toxicity in random content with this? Are you assuming that they will add in enrages to casual content along side revamped healer dps kits? What angle are you coming from here as I just can't get my head round it, sorry.
To clarify I do think that throwing more damage out in mainstream fights would be a good thing for sure, but enough that we genuinely need to maintain Medica II uptime round the clock or assumedly someone dies?
Do you genuinely feel that that's going to be less problematic than more dps complexity? -
03-21-2023, 05:13 PMASkellingtonYeah I can, because I asked the question that way on purpose: I won't accept it because the devs themselves refuse it. So unless YOU can fix that then yes, your answer is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
They aren't trying to see if it can be done elsewhere. Abyssos isn't unique to this "more healing/mitigation" BS. We had this in Shb. And guess what? They reverted all extra healing in the next tier afterwards and the start of this expansion. I don't doubt they'll do the same thing here. SE has a track record of this and unless the devs come and outright say that yes they're going to improve healing across all levels of content, MSQ included and actually have the gall to do so in 7.0, which has been proven for 2 expansions that they don't, your examples mean nothing.
Further, more healing isn't even a good fix. Good healers are ALWAYS going to have down time. Do answer why my down time has to be boring?
Also that is false that more damage buttons "isn't casual friendly". Casuals are people who don't want to do harder content. I would argue that more healing required is more casual unfriendly. The extra dps buttons are for the more expirienced healers who need something to do when they've met the healing requirements. This is why I keep asking you to answer the question, because you aren't giving an alternative fix to us having down time that we are guarenteed to have.
There is no way you are going to give enough healing in all forms of content to remove down time for a mid and especially hard core player. So again, what is your perposed fix? -
03-21-2023, 05:31 PMRenathrasWell, I wasn't talking about keeping full Medica 2 uptime, but that's aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I mean that casting GCD heals is far more straightforward than maintaining DoT uptimes are with multiple DoTs with different durations and cast times/applications.
Pressing Medica four times is, in no way, harder than making sure to keep checking the boss for your DoT falloffs and reapplying them. FFXIV, WoW, whatever game it is, I have way easier time keeping my party alive by picking applicable heals than I do keeping DoTs up. It may be partly how people's brains work, where some people are amazing on DoT timings, but others who aren't? DoT upkeep is ridiculously harder. I have no trouble seeing when party bars start dropping and picking between an AOE or single target heal or from my oGCD heals to address the problem. But I have to watch my DoT like a hawk (to the point I miss health bars going critical or mechanics) to never have my DoT fall off at any time during a fight. I think it's because health bars are always there and in the same spot, so they aren't something I have to "search" for, they also don't disappear when they need to be addressed (imagine if the way you could tell the Tank needed heals/was below 50% health was his name just vanished from your party bar and all the other party members slid up instantly so you don't even notice the name/healthbar vanishing, you just have to see out of the corner of your eye the bottom party member move up a touch in your peripheral vision), and it's far worse for multi-target situations.
There are probably some add-ons that make it easier to track - I remember in WoW an add-on called something-Auras (Weak Auras, maybe?) where you could have it give you an alert when your DoT dropped or was within so many seconds of dropping, and that made it super easy to keep up with. "RUN AWAY, little girl! Run away..." or whatnot. But the native FFXIV client has nothing of the sort as far as I'm aware of.
Conversely, I can see a big light-blue bar with a chunk missing, and in super heavy combat, I can see it up and to my right, a place my eyes frequent from 20 years now of playing MMOs as a healer. It's second nature to glance at the party bars every few seconds or after a big mechanic or before specific mechanics (like tankbusters), and I've been playing FFXIV healers long enough, I know what my abilities do and where all my GCDs and oGCDs are on my bars by feel. If I need Divine Benison, I know where it is without having to take a second thought. Cure 2 is just a target (easy with controller using the D-Pad) and button push away. And when it's needed, it's obvious, unlike the DoT which just slips away into the night with no fanfare or notice.
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And yes, I feel DPS complexity will be more problematic. I lived through HW. The reason Cleric was removed was because it was causing massive fights in the community - from both sides - where you had both people complaining about Healers not using it AND people complaining that Healers DID use it (if people died due to someone being in Cleric, which happened frequently enough to generate the ire). The high end players weren't like "Oh, this is a 4 player dungeon, who cares if the Healer isn't using Cleric at all?", they would actively harass and kick people. And likewise, a high end or midcore player messing up their Cleric timing causing wipes generated a lot of toxicity as well.
SE didn't remove Cleric for fun. They did it because it was actually causing a major schism in the community.
It's like the fabled Cure 1 spammer now (almost no one does that, but there ARE a lot of people that don't maintain ABC uptime or sit around doing nothing if there's not needed healing, etc); those generate considerable hate. While it'd be nice to live in a world where "Oh, the Healer let all their DoTs fall off or maybe doesn't have this new DPS ability on their bar/doesn't want to use it - that's cool" is the standard way people behave, that's not the world that we live in. Even in content where it literally doesn't matter.
Wanna test that? Go into a Savage raid as a healer, don't tell anyone you are planning to do this, but don't use any DPS abilities. Watch and see if anyone comments on it. Or go in as SCH and only use Ruin 2 and no other damage ability. I was in a 24 man the other day where someone wanted to kick someone because they were doing something weird, and saw someone complaining about a NIN only using Throwing Knife. People absolutely do notice those things. Right now, things are generally benign because there's really not much difference, but I'm not sure that would hold up if we had Cleric 2.0.
So yes, I absolutely believe the more dps complexity ends up more problematic, because we had that happen before in HW, and it got really toxic, which is why it was removed in the first place. It's yet another case of "this is why we can't have nice things". Though it DOES depend on what said complexity is.
Maybe everyone has suddenly mellowed and is totally chill about it now, but after the 4.3 launch insanity...I kind of have my "Press X to doubt" on that.
Let's flip that on you:Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
The Devs have said they want Healers to have super simple DPS rotations, which is why they got rid of Cleric and gutted Healer DPS abilities. So the devs themselves refuse to add more DPS complexity. It's the very reason we don't have complex dps rotations RIGHT NOW on Healers.
So what's your proposed fix to the downtime?
Remember, you can't say "more dps complexity", because the devs themselves refuse it. -
03-21-2023, 05:39 PMASkellingtonQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
- Then give us buffs and debuffs to manage. That isn't a cop out of Feint and Addle. They don't add a single thing to healers other than shutting up other players who think they know our job, but can't even do theirs (actually use said abilities).
- Man up and give actual MP management. All oGCDs should have a cost.
- Screw off with this 60s, 120s BS. My strong oGCDs should not properly line up with tank busters or raid wides.
All of which they refused to do over the course of 2 expansions by the way. Now answer your question. - Then give us buffs and debuffs to manage. That isn't a cop out of Feint and Addle. They don't add a single thing to healers other than shutting up other players who think they know our job, but can't even do theirs (actually use said abilities).
-
03-21-2023, 06:07 PMSebazyMedica II has a duration of 15 seconds, 4 casts is full uptime. This is basic healer stuff man =(Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You're completely glossing over the fact that the price of failing to maintain your dots is somewhere between negligible and non existent. IT DOESN'T MATTER. And seriously, what on earth does going into a Savage raid and doing literally nothing for the majority of your GCDs have to do with casual Timmy struggling to maintain his dots?
Are you honestly sitting there with a straight face trying to compare 3 dots to ARR/HW Cleric Stance? Again, flubbing Cleric Stance was a pretty common cause for a wipe at all levels of play, even in dungeons. Failing to maintain 3 dots isn't going to cause a wipe in any casual relevant content. If a player is in Savage or higher where DPS really starts to matter, I'd argue that they should be capable of maintaining dots.
These contrived points really aren't helping. So no, I won't test it by going into a Savage raider and standing there doing nothing for 70%+ of my GCDs. That has nothing to do with this discussion so stop trying to pretend that it does. You're just making yourself look bad.
Failing to keep up with healing that's significant enough to warrant the sort of healing you're suggesting is going to be an actual calamity when casual Timmy struggles to keep up. Is it easier to roll Medica II? Sure why not. Will casual duty finder players still manage to fail at it? Absolutely. It's routine to see players in 24 man with a sub 40% uptime on their GCD.
Again, in case A, failure doesn't really matter even if someone did start getting toxic over it, a quick report takes care of that. In case B, failure potentially means wipes. There is no glossing over this point.
There isn't one that's truly sensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
One change has the potential to greatly increase the rate of full party wipes at all levels of content.
One change isn't going to change much of anything given how little damage actually matters below Savage.
Of course the 3rd and 'correct' option is to simply do nothing and ignore the problem. -
03-21-2023, 06:12 PMASkellingtonWell the devs are doing that already so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Honestly I wasn't going to call out cleric stance but, wasn't the problem of cleric stance being the switching? If the stance was removed and the dps remained... wouldn't that have ALSO fixed the problem? Because if what I read about cleric stance was correct, when you switched it locked you out of switching back for a duration?
They... quite literally could have made it like current tank stance and still kept all the dps actions yeah? -
03-21-2023, 06:21 PMIcecyleeI feel like it is important to note that using or not using Cleric's stance could *easily* quadruple the amount of damage you were doing. It also came with the draw back of making inexperienced (be it in general, or just with any given encounter specifically) feel *very* unsafe because it also completely neutered your ability to fill up HP bars (which also used to drop faster more frequently!) while having a timer before you could turn it back off. And there is absolutely no way in hell any amount of added dps buttons are going to increase your maximum potential dps that much. So the toxicity potential is VASTLY lower than that memory/comparison would make it out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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03-21-2023, 06:27 PMSebazyPretty much that, accidentally hitting cleric or worse, double tapping cleric stance so that you dropped it and then immediately activated it again locked you out of your GCD healing for 5 seconds and I'm 99% sure you couldn't click it off. Bene, Lustrate and fairy heals ignored it but it was still pretty damn nerve-racking for less confident healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
I have it in my head that it originally had no cooldown lockout at all, perhaps pre release in beta? But I'm fairly sure that was changed very early on. I suspect it's an ability that could be implemented in a much neater manner now but eh. Personally I don't think it's worth the inevitable fallout from the large number of players that hated it back then and wouldn't be willing to give a less clunky implementation a chance. -
03-21-2023, 06:50 PMASkellingtonTypical SE taking a BSM tool to a GSM job. One fix I could have seen (other than removing the stance all together, adjusting healing potencies as needed) would have been that when you exited out of Cleric stance it could have had a lasting buff placed upon you so that your healing wouldn't immediately suffered. Say... 15s? Longer than the lockout period but would make it less brutal having that buffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Oh well. Its moot. I don't want cleric stance back. I WOULD like a stance dancing class *eyes AST*. Doesn't need to be healer either. It sounds fun if a pita to make. -
03-21-2023, 08:28 PMForsakenRoe
Cleric swapped your INT and MND stats, and also iirc had 'increases damage dealt by X%', something low like 10% maybe. So the main issues with it were that A: it removes your MND when you use it, making your heals really weak, and B: it locked you in with a 5s CD. But who says it has to be exactly the same as before? Why do we need it to also swap INT and MND, now that our damage spells scale from MND? If it were just a toggle of 'increases damage by 5%, decreases healing by 5%', the 'punishment' for being in the wrong stance is that your Medica goes from 400 potency to 380. Damn. We can also adjust the 'lockout' period to something more fitting of the modern era like, idk, the 1 second recast of 'most of the DPS's gauge spenders', like how you can back-to-back Hellfrogs or Bloodstalks or god forbid, weave Bloodletter-Empyreal-Bloodletter for whatever reason.
That was as weak as 'I know you are but what am I'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As for what we should get if they're not gonna give us damage, start putting esuna-able debuffs to cleanse, start having adds to CC with repose, start having boss buffs to Dispel with a new role action, start having less reliance on the melee taking their finger out of their backside and pressing Feint (or casters with addle) and make healers more in control of mitigation, start having more mini-burn phases where the incoming damage is constant but lower (Barb EX, any enrage from final fights in most previous tiers EG Tumults), start making moves to remove the stupid pure/barrier split that means that 'mitigation > everything' because it doesnt matter if you heal 500 or 50000000, you cannot save a party from a raidwide that deals 130% of their HP without mit, start having actual MP management so that Piety vs not is an actual gearing choice instead of 'idiot insurance' as it is right now...
and all of that starts with: start having overall HPS requirements be higher throughout the whole game including story. Because if you want to have 'more healing' as the change that will 'make healer more interesting', you'll have to make sure people are used to it from earlier on. If you do it just out of the blue, you get the Abyssos whiplash reaction of 'wait what this hits so hard I cant keep up fk this I'm going back to maining DRG'. But that'd mean making it more likely casual players cause wipes because 'its harder now' and we cant have that
Again, if SE's trying to do things, Abyssos can be considered a 'test run'. It didn't seem to go well. If SE wants to try plowing ahead with it, fine by me, the extra HPS didn't stop me. If they want to try a different tack, that's fine too, maybe they'll find one that works. If they want to just throw their hands up and say 'well we tried boys pack it up' and go back to Asphodelos because 'thats where people complained a little bit less' then that will be very disappointing for many players.
I'd nominate AST too, for obvious reasons, but if not, then SCH (call them Tactics) or WHM (cycle elements or seasons akin to BRD songs) could work tooQuote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
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03-22-2023, 08:10 AMRenathrasHonestly, we have 1, the problem is they keep making them oGCDs (because if you use a GCD for something that isn't damage, you're a bad player). Think about it, say they give you a 30 sec Addle oGCD. Has that fixed the problem? Probably not. What if they give you a 15 sec duration, 15 sec CD Addle oGCD that you're trying to keep 100% uptime on. Does that fix your boredom? Probably not. The only way to get that to work would be to do something like FF13's Sabateur where the debuff spells do a set amount of baseline damage. Then you could turn it into a GCD, which is what it needs to be to break up your boring 111 spam. But if it does less damage than Glare, it's again a DPS loss and we get the SB "How much can you avoid Tank stance" situation where optimal party play is for players to be good enough (and geared enough) that you don't need to upkeep it, and the Healer is good enough at using their oGCDs that they don't need to upkeep it, so it would be the thing you remove until you're just spamming Glare again, same as now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Now, if it's something that isn't a mitigation debuff, say something like a boss takes additional damage debuff you upkeep, then it's still just one button every X seconds, which is pretty boring, would still probably need to be an oGCD or damage neutral (or nearly so) GCD like how Storm's Eye and Armor Crush aren't crippling damage losses vs their competitors, and it would probably need to be a role action so that it doesn't screw with Healer balance, which would again make all the Healers feel the same. And if they each had a distinct one, it would suffer from complaints of homogenization AND from "well, SCH has +1% damage, and that's better than WHM's +1% direct hit, SGE's +1% crit, or AST's +1% haste which just makes people angry". So they would need to be basically the same, and you still likely have the risk of "It's boring, it's just second-Dia. BORING!"
Would it really be engaging to you to have a second basically Dia GCD that you simply press every 15 or 30 seconds (it can't be TOO often otherwise it could get in the way of healing for casual Timmy, remember), and how to balance that to prevent it either being dropped from the rotation as your party gets better (mainly debuffs versions) or people get kicked from the party for not using it (damage buff versions)? It would likely HAVE to be a different duration than your DoT, but would just having one extra button you press at a similar cadence be "engaging"? Really?
This goes to having a second 15 sec DoT. Right now you might say "That would be worlds better!", but if you got it, how long would it be, really before it felt just like you view Dia refreshes now? I think this is the reason there are a high number of the Survey results saying they want SITUATIONAL DPS buttons, not part of a rotation but things you use occasionally.
2 is an interesting case and mainly a problem because of how oGCDs work. But if oGCDs have MP costs, you may as well just make them GCDs at that point. In fact, if we made all oGCDs into GCDs, that would already solve the problem of the 111 spam.
Not sure 3 even makes sense. You want your oGCDs to never be available when needed?
"All of which they refused to do over the course of 2 expansions by the way", so, in other words the devs themselves refuse it? So by your definition, that means none of those three are answers, right?
Not trying to be snarky, but if we're in a case of the devs themselves refuse it, at this point, they've refused every solution that either of us have proposed.
If you back off of the hyperbole and appeal to ridicule, we can have a decent conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Medica 2 has a 15 sec duration. That doesn't mean you'd have to have it up all the time, hence you wouldn't always need 4 in a minute. And even if you DID, it's one button vs several (for different DoTs with different durations), missing a tick would no more lead to a wipe than missing a DoT tick, and you can easily tell if it's still up or not and it's easy to get a feel for, unlike multiple DoTs with multiple durations.
Do you seriously thin using 3 abilities that have different 15, 18, and 21 sec durations is no harder than using a single ability with a consisting 15 sec duration would be?
These contrived points really aren't helping. You know as well as I do if you did that you'd get complaints. People notice, and people complain and harass because of it. That was my point, and why they won't do it. It's why I brought up Cleric. And no, Cleric didn't lead to wipes in dungeons unless people were incompetent. I even went part way through a dungeon in HW not realizing it was on (since I had been soloing stuff) and I got by (albeit sweating bullets) by using Divine Seal, Presence of Mind, Cure 2s, etc. And that was like a quarter of a dungeon, lol. Ah, the halcyon days...
I don't think I'm suggesting the level of healing you are, and that may be the sticking point.
.
"There isn't one that's truly sensible" - agreed, and that's my point. There is no change that the devs have not said they will accept that does what you guys want. I disagree on the "how little damage actually matters below Savage". You know as well as I it doesn't matter, but PFs blacklist Jobs all the time because they aren't optimal in world first races. People are stupid about these things for some reason.
5 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
The lockout was 5 seconds, I believe. While that COULD be pivotal in Savage content, it generally wasn't elsewhere. Just if people were stupid about it or fat fingered it (when you hit it to cancel it, it didn't put the ability on CD, so you could accidentally double tap it which would drop the buff then instantly reapply it), it could cause problems. A bigger issue was Healers that thought they were better than they were playing too close to the line and getting people killed.
One can hope. I'm just cautious about saying "It wouldn't happen now" when it happens literally all the time now. People will complain if Healers aren't casting their nuke consistently and people blacklist Jobs because of World First race issues. So I'm not really sure that it wouldn't happen again. FFXIV discussion forums are filled with people complaining about these things all the time, so it still happens even now when it should be completely irrelevant. People are just...well, it's the whole "this is why we can't have nice things" stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecylee
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03-22-2023, 08:52 AMASkellingtonWhen have I ever ASKED for a ROTATION? Get that out your vocabulary. Extra dps buttons do not equal a rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And yes, actually having another DoT up to manage more often would be more engaging to me than one every 30s.
I'm not worried about casual Timmy. The game already caters to him since they've made healers so fool proof with the BS amounts of healing we have you can pretty much clear the entire game using nothing but your GCD (which I have done in the previous expansion btw). What I'm trying to address are the problems at a higher skill level, things you get once you master a job.
The whole argument of "well people will start removing people from PF" they do that already. It is expected of you EX and above to play your job at a certain skill level. We aren't talking about MSQ content at that point, we're talking about optional hardcore content. People are ALWAYS going to chase what "the best class" is. The problem is again, on the devs for saying "well, people are complaining about a mere X% damage that doesn't matter, lets fix it".
If harassment is your major concern there is a report button. People can use it. Conversely, people can grow a spine and get sticks out their arses. Is a healer really stopping your progress by never pressing a dps button? No. Its just making the dungeon slower. Is a healer stopping your progress by not using their tool kit? Then I'm pretty sure it isn't just the healer that's a problem, they're just the more noticeable problem. If you're that worried about others "harassing you" for not being S+++ tier, then just open up at the start of the instance that you're new. Majority of the people are more willing to help you/give the benefit of the doubt and will even go out of their way to help you. It becomes a problem when you say nothing because they expect you to know what you're doing.
It shouldn't be a reason to halt adding in extra dps and it isn't even a good one. -
03-22-2023, 09:52 AMSebazy
Oh my god I've just looked at the length of this post and I'm becoming you =( Aaannnyway!
You have absolutely no right to call any of my points contrived after trying to suggest that queuing to Savage and doing ZERO DPS has any relevance whatsoever to a casual player struggling to maintain multiple dots in relevant content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You make some interesting points, and then you nuke them from orbit by wildly overreaching when people try to counter you. Stop it. It pisses people off and lo and behold, you get chewed out for it. By all means cite any comment in this discussion where I've tried to use hyperbole to make a point. I've either used my opinion which is clearly labeled as such (IMO = In my opinion if you're not aware). When I've actually called you out on something, I'm pretty sure I've consistently explained why I'm calling you out with reasoning to back it up (eg: The dot timeline example).
Now anyway, if you've not blocked me after that, as promised. Here's a POV of me running Althyk and Nymeia and I don't think you're going to like it....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6usab1LjtYE
My target bar is at the upper middle of the screen, I've got self debuffs toggled on. My focus bar with all debuffs/dots etc is to the right of that. No plugins or simple tweaks here. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's rather easy to keep a track of my dot there. It's big enough despite my ultra wide and it's not buried under a mountain of other dots like the focus window is because I went into the settings and fixed that. For reference, I managed a 98% uptime and you can see a few occasions where I had to let my dots drop to cast a raise or top someone. It's no big deal.
If you don't want to click through to the video, here's a cropped snip from the upper middle leftish of my screen:
https://i.imgur.com/QfDc2nw.jpg
My guess is either your UI setup is perhaps more subpar than it needs to be (Not trying to suggest that mine is perfect, look to someone like Minori or Elia for that), or you're spending too much time with party members targeted unnecessarily? Do you use mouse over macros to DPS or something like that? Regardless, my hope at least is that you'll understand why I'm at a loss as to why you feel that rolling multiple dots is difficult. My dot icon is plenty big enough and central to keep a tabs on, if yours isn't, that's on you for not making more out of the admittedly limited tools SE give us. Could SE do better on this front? Absolutely! But it's not rocket science to work with what we have either.
I've included the Ice trash before Halone at 5:30 as well. Note that this alliance overall was perhaps the worst I've ever seen, Menphina actually did some mechanic combinations I've genuinely never seen before I guess due to taking 7:30ish to kill. As you said, the trash wasn't gathered in the slightest and I ended up with 2 vuln stacks. The first @5:55 was entirely my fault with inactivity rust and sloppy movement and should have been avoided. The second at 6:30 wasn't really worth avoiding so I just Benison'd myself to be safe and ate it rather than running to Narnia.
I did 9.8k DPS on that trash pack despite it being perhaps one of the messiest pulls I've ever seen. The best DPS was 11.3k. Make of that what you will.
Ok so here's precisely what you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I'll focus specifically on: Fights where they *have* to press Medica 2 four times a minute and a Cure 2 or Regen in there to taste.Quote:
Or, maybe, they genuinely do believe that it would be easier for casuals to juggle 3 DoTs with different timers and keep near 100% upkeep on them than to have fights where they have to press Medica 2 four times a minute and a Cure 2 or Regen in there to taste. I can't imagine HOW anyone would believe that, but maybe some people do...
Now by definition, *having* to press medica II four times a minute implies that you have to do exactly that or bad things will happen. Now there's only really one bad thing that happens when you don't heal enough, and that's people dieing. Fair so far? I'll be generous and ignore the Cure 2 or Regen since Yoshida seems to be allergic to tank damage now anyway ;)
Now, to put this into perspective, lets use P5S as an example, specifically 2 minutes into the fight with the AoE sequence of Ruby Glow (~48k) > Double Rush (~50k) > Sonic Howl (26k) > Ruby Glow (~48k). Note all those damage amounts are after mitigation and are on me specifically as a healer with a little over 60k HP and comes to a total of just over 170k damage taken on myself only over roughly a 1 minute period. To give some context, BarbEX's knuckle drum phase is around 135k damage taken and RubiEX's fire explosion mechanic thing is in the region of 150k over similar time frames.
Why have I picked this as an example? Because I dealt with it via 2 Medica IIs, 2 Afflatus Raptures, Assize and an Asylum right at the end of the sequence to top us up. I think it's a fair opinion to say that that's somewhat comparable to 4 Medica IIs no? (And for transparency, Assize's CD landed at a good point and got full value, the second Rapture was 65% overheal).
And no I absolutely wasn't chadding, my co healer used 2 Soils, 1 Indom, 1 Whispering Dawn and a fey blessing. I did a total of just over 12k HPS in this window, my co healer did ~9.5k. Both of us were sitting at around 30% overheal.
So yeah, that's an example of a sequence where I *have* to cast 4 Medica IIs or some equivalent or bad things will happen and as such, that's what I'm working off. And yeah, it's pretty apparent that we are talking about different levels of content with this. Could you clarify what sort of level of content you feel requires a healer to cast 4 Medica IIs a minute? If you think this whole explanation is hyperbole, by all means please clarify that too.
Lastly:
That's not my point. Please read what I'm trying to say here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If little Timmy fails to DPS well in content that is appropriate for little Timmy, nothing bad will happen and the overwhelming majority simply won't care.
If little Timmy fails to keep up with *Having* to use 4 significant AoE heals a minute (Which as I've demonstrated and backed up with math, is comparable to P5S and beyond what we see in Extremes), people will likely die and yes, then people will likely get salty over it and unlike the DPS example, they will actually have grounds to do as such.
I don't know how I can make it clearer. The only time healer DPS becomes so important that failing your DoT uptime is a genuine and real issue is early Savage/Ultimate prog. That's not content that little Timmy has any place doing if they can't handle something as simple as maintaining dots.
Regarding Cleric Stance, I've seen CS cause wipes on trash pulls in dungeons, but from memory it's generally been a leveling dungeon thing rather than Expert and yeah, it's usually been the healer double tapping Cleric Stance and reapplying it whilst trying to drop it. -
03-22-2023, 06:49 PMRilifane
Dot tracking is definitely an issue with your UI setup, Ren.
You can split the target frame into 3 seperate elements: HP bar, cast bar and debuffs. Each of these elements can be scaled and dragged to your liking.
Since you can also filter the debuff bar to only show your own debuffs, you can easily scale it to all the way up to 200% and put it wherever your eyes naturally go without it affecting the size/ placement of the HP bar/ cast bar. There you go, no plugins necessary (although I'd personaly like to see UI addons or at the very least way more customization options). I also highly recommend putting it not somewhere near the middle and instead more to the side or lower end of the screen (maybe near your party frames where you oftne look anyway?) because there tend to be less effects that could lead to visual clutter.
And if you want to track all debuff, set focus target to the boss, now you can also see TA, Chain etc. The only downside is that the focus target bar has a limit for debuffs so during burst and heavy incoming damage, a mitigation debuff could get pushed out of the frame if you have multiple debuffing classes.
I can't take a screenshot of my UI anymore since my sub already ran out but I'm sure you'll find the options, should be somewhere in the target tab iirc. But someone else could clarify on that. -
03-22-2023, 06:49 PMTheDustyOneI'd nominate Scholar personally, although AST certainly has the history for it to work. The main reason I'd pick Scholar though is that it actually was a stance-changing job in FFXI, where it would pick between light and dark grimoires to change what spells it had access to, not to mention Eos and Selene having different abilities was also a sort of stance system we had access to in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
We could change Summon Eos and Summon Selene to White Grimoire and Black Grimoire respectively, where White Grimoire gives us our shields and access to Eos' healing abilities, while Black Grimoire could give us the DoTs back and Selene's utility.
I don't think Square would want to go through with that kind of idea though, it'd have similar problems to old Cleric where you could lock yourself out of White Grimoire for however long the cooldown would be and end up stuck with weaker heals for that period. It wouldn't be as bad though since we'd still have Aetherflow heals and Physick would still scale properly unlike old Cleric INT/MND shenanigans.