DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Tanks pulling has been an MMO staple since...well, forever, in games that utilize tanks, healers and dps. We don't need Yoshi P to tell us anything on this. Seriously. This is just unnecessary. How things have worked from the start is our answer.

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DPS or even healer classes pulled in EverQuest. Rangers and druids had skills like snare to slow the mobs down as they brought them back to the tank. Monks could bring the mobs back to the tank's feet and then feign death to drop all aggro. Most tanks just wouldn't survive that many mobs hitting on them away from healers (because things hit like Mack trucks), so that's why DPS did it. Later on shadowknights, a tank class, got the feign death ability so they were added to the pulling roster but usually still bringing things back to another tank. The big difference in that era of MMOs was that everyone waited back at camp while someone went out and pulled mobs to it. Though it was so ingrained in us that even when we got instanced dungeons, we still kept to the same camp and run back mentality. Though to be fair, the design also pretty much required that, even if it changed to progressively making our way through different pull spots in the dungeon.

Whenever these threads come up and people go on about being a team based game, I wonder why we don't condemn *both* mentalities. If we're a team, we should move together, no? If a member of the team is paused for a moment, why aren't we encouraging staying with them and making sure we move as a unit? Why don't we trust other members to know what they're capable of, and support each other in our roles? Why do we allow any lone wolf actions in a team based game?

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

The answer is within the tos around Lethargic Play and Nescience Behavior. You are prohibited from pk'ing others by manipulating Enmity generating actions or failing to perform your role when could have.

Those who think it is acceptable can and perhaps should spend some time waiting for the GM in Goal.

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You're focusing on the wrong thing. While I agree a tank should do their job the actual question is whether DPS and Healers should pull to being with. This pattern always emerges where non-tanks think its okay, and then it turns into a personal crusade against tanks that try to retaliate towards that behavior by refusing to tank.

It's very clear to me DPS would like to coerce the tanks into putting up with them and wield the report card if they dare refuse. This is rather toxic imo. But I'm interested in looking at whether the initial behavior is acceptable or not. That of the DPS pulling. It would change the conversation from (A) the tanks having to put up with whatever the DPS feel like doing or (B) the Tanks being considerate and making up for the mistakes that the DPS are doing by pulling.

Personally I side with B.

1. DPS is doing wrong by pulling
2. Tanks need to adjust and save the day by compensating

I say this as a non tank main too. So I'm not trying to boost my ego here.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Personally I side with B.

1. DPS is doing wrong by pulling
2. Tanks need to adjust and save the day by compensating

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Save the day by... Not AFKing? Because that's what you have to do in order to establish aggro. Thanks, I guess?

If getting aggro was a rather complex and annoying process, then yes, I would side with you, but this is not the game we are playing.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Save the day by... Not AFKing? Because that's what you have to do in order to establish aggro. Thanks, I guess?

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Pretty much. If waiting for the tank to pull was a rather complex and annoying process then I would side with the DPS, but all they have to do is get over themselves and wait. I guess thats not the game we're playing either though.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

It's very clear to me DPS would like to coerce the tanks into putting up with them and wield the report card if they dare refuse. This is rather toxic imo. But I'm interested in looking at whether the initial behavior is acceptable or not. That of the DPS pulling. It would change the conversation from (A) the tanks having to put up with whatever the DPS feel like doing or (B) the Tanks being considerate and making up for the mistakes that the DPS are doing by pulling.

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In this scenario, the tank should type in chat asking that the DPS/Healer not pull ahead of them. And to do so without snippy remarks implying how they'll let them die or whatever. A simple, "Pls don't pull ahead. I'm still getting used to tanking" would suffice. If they continuously do so, then the tank has a better argument. Granted, in most cases, GMs will advise you to simply leave the dungeon. Now you could argue the DPS/Healer should ask beforehand, and we can certainly debate that.

Nevertheless, when the DPS/Healer pull, they aren't intending to cause a wipe even if one occurs. A tank refusing to take aggro is deliberately griefing another player. The intent is what separates the two.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

In this scenario, the tank should type in chat asking that the DPS/Healer not pull ahead of them. And to do so without snippy remarks implying how they'll let them die or whatever. A simple, "Pls don't pull ahead. I'm still getting used to tanking" would suffice. If they continuously do so, then the tank has a better argument. Granted, in most cases, GMs will advise you to simply leave the dungeon. Now you could argue the DPS/Healer should ask beforehand, and we can certainly debate that.

Nevertheless, when the DPS/Healer pull, they aren't intending to cause a wipe even if one occurs. A tank refusing to take aggro is deliberately griefing another player. The intent is what separates the two.

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I think you're skipping over the question again. The question is should they pull? Its obvious we all want a tank that is the bigger person and fixes problems instead of creating more. Or are you arguing its correct form and gameplay for the DPS and Healers to start pulling for the tank because they couldn't bother write in chat asking him to go faster?

You seem to imply the tank should definitely ask in party chat. That seems like a double standard.

While the intent is different, it is still wrong, so this is a case of two wrongs don't make a right.

If I'm a healer pulling for a tank, it's because I'm bored out of my mind doing 1 button dps and no healing because there's no need if the tank is pulling so small there's no damage being done. I'm sure that goes for any healer pulling for tanks for the most part. There needs to be more trust with your party; if they are pulling for you, you have every means to grab the aggro if they bring it to you.
I'd rather a run be fun than pressing 1 button, y'know?
I typically don't pull as a healer, but I do understand why it happens and I have trust in the tank to be able to handle it. If the healer is already hardly healing in the first place, you can trust they will have the ability to heal you if you start taking more damage because we have massive kits we don't touch.
I feel the same about dps; if they pull, I'm sure it's because they believe the party can handle it. As a tank, just do your aoe and you've established aggro with that particular mob they pulled (granted, if they bring it to the tank).

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

And people suggest FFXIV doesn't have a toxic casual problem.

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Funny since it is the very opposite of that in this very topic. Toxic "speed runners" wanting to control how someone is playing.

I pull sometimes too, depends if I'm on a bad mood. If I die for that I'm not blaming the tank.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Pretty much. If waiting for the tank to pull was a rather complex and annoying process then I would side with the DPS, but all they have to do is get over themselves and wait. I guess thats not the game we're playing either though.

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Dodging a question and false equivalence, a classic.
What does waiting for a tank mean? Pulling when a tank said "brb"? Pulling one second before a tank because you are a BRD? One does not feel like the other, although I believe this doesn't matter when arguing in bad faith.

Even though I fear you will probably skip these questions and say something unrelated again: what tells you clearly, unmistakably and unequivocally that a tank, and only a tank, should always pull?

Is it in the name? "Tank" does not quite carry that meaning, I'm afraid.

Is it in the gameplay? Maybe in another game. Enmity is a non-mechanic that requires you to not AFK.

What else? Is it determined by an unspoken rule - which we could describe as one of the most common symptoms of the anime main character syndrome - that somehow takes precedence over actually written rules that state quite clearly one should not manipulate enmity-related actions, engage in lethargic behaviour and aid the enemy?

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Originally Posted by Ath192

You're focusing on the wrong thing. While I agree a tank should do their job the actual question is whether DPS and Healers should pull to being with. This pattern always emerges where non-tanks think its okay, and then it turns into a personal crusade against tanks that try to retaliate towards that behavior by refusing to tank.

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There is no personal crusade anything. The job of the deeps is to do damage. The job of the healer is to heal. The job of the tank is to hold Enmity.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

It's very clear to me DPS would like to coerce the tanks into putting up with them and wield the report card if they dare refuse. This is rather toxic imo. But I'm interested in looking at whether the initial behavior is acceptable or not. That of the DPS pulling. It would change the conversation from (A) the tanks having to put up with whatever the DPS feel like doing or (B) the Tanks being considerate and making up for the mistakes that the DPS are doing by pulling.

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See the above stuffs. The tank does not set the pace nor do they get to dictate pull size and speed. The party does this collectively because this is team game. The tos is non specific on dps pulling because it is so commonly not issue at'all. Playing dps allows for understanding things I did not in past times. They have procs that can expire, mitigation tools, self buffs to apply, etc. You are looking at this wrong and letting emotions govern your thinking processes. Not every pulling dps is being rude unless you delude yourself into believing that then of course it will always seem this way.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Personally I side with B.

1. DPS is doing wrong by pulling
2. Tanks need to adjust and save the day by compensating

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This right here is some savior complex nonsense. You are playing a video game as a beefy boy that makes enemies hate them by spamming the aoe. Tanks and healers are not special just because they selected one of the three major roles in a mmorpg. You are not saving the day by aggroing mobs you are doing the job you queued as. Likewise for healing someone who stood in the bad. People need to stop and just play the game.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I say this as a non tank main too. So I'm not trying to boost my ego here.

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You say this however the passion for this topic tells me you may have dabbled in tanking or perhaps have partner/friend who does. Likely single pull Sallying when the dps pulled. I have had friends or been executed by tanks before hence why I am passionately making replies here. It is mildly obnoxious on good day to be killed because someone other then you pulled. YPYT catches innocent players all the fricken time. Ever stop to think about that? Square did which is why the TOS is highly specific about Enmity generating actions and not dps pulling.

It does not require Yoshi P himself speaking on the matter.

You have a chat function so use it. Dps pulling? Ask them to stop doing that.
Tank not pulling enough? Ask them to pull more.

No one has the right to pk each other over mild play style disagreements and that is all the tos need specify. Square expects players to utilize the tools available to them for the resolving of issues. Kick or talk, this is what you do.

If you are a tank that single baby pulls just stop doing that or queue with trusts where available. Waiting in one twenty minute queue to spend twenty five minutes in a dungeon that could be completed in eight minutes is mildly infuriating. Naturally there are exceptions because of course there are. Deeps running away with the mobs or over pulling extra enemies and killing the party but this is covered under monster player kill and resolvable by talking.

Other exceptions would be upon inspecting a tank and seeing all level 90 tanks but they are single pulling. It is obvious that discussion with that player is unlikely to go anywhere so deeps/healers may pull and opt for silence or being kicked. I cannot blame them, especially the healer. You can do single pulls without a healer. Heck! You can wall pull without a healer.

The day Square augments the TOS to make kicking lethargic tanks or for play style differences a violation will be the day I cease using the roulette system. It will not and never should be normalized that one of four people has right to hold the other three hostage in a fricken video game because walking forward and pressing the aoe buttons is stressful.

I just don't care when people do it, I just take the mobs back and move on, why get upset over a quick run with people you will likely never see again? its just not worth the hazzle imo. Only time it irks me a bit, is when people are watching cutscenes, and the tank is waiting on them before pulling, but the dps decides to pull anyway. Its very rare that happens in my experience tho.

When I was learning to tank, I always made sure to tell the group first when I entered the dungeon. Never had a single issue with this.
Of course easiest solution is to be in front of the group. Impossible for dps to pull then. Cheers

The most satisfying thing about tanks attempting to let other players die to teach them a lesson is using all my healing tools on whoever pulled, neglecting the tank if I have to.

The only lesson being taught is some humility.

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Originally Posted by Theox

I confess as a healer I sometimes go ahead of tank because I want to be done quickly and my tank is not pressing sprint or they're just slacking behind. I get that it's not a good habit but I've never had problems with it/died because if it so is it really a big deal?

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Depends on the skill level of others in the group, and any latency problems the tank is having.

A tank with bad latency is going to one heck of a hard time collecting scattered mobs, and that's going to make it more difficult for an inexperienced healer who's now got to be trying to heal everyone in the party instead of focusing primarily on the tank. I don't have particularly bad latency myself but frequently I"ll be standing in the middle of a group of monsters to hit them with my AoE to gain enmity - and watch it miss ones that had been closest to me because a healer cast a heal or a DPS hit the mobs before my AoE went off so the mobs took off after them. The mobs farther away were still within range of my AoE when the server picks it up as going off but I'm stuck chasing down the ones it missed.

Instead of speeding things up, you've slowed them down because the mobs are no longer in a tidy pile to get hit by every AoE.

Even if the tank managed to gain aggro on everything, if DPS is using single targets attacks instead of AoEing the tank will be taking a beating for a much longer period of time. The group would have been better off pulling small so the healer could focus more on DPS instead of trying to keep the tank up.

The dumbest thing anyone can do in a party is assume everyone there has a high end PC with optimal internet connection and capable of performing at optimum skill level. Good tanks are going to go a bit slow at first to gauge how well the group is doing. If the group is on the ball, they'll usually pick up the pace.

You're getting away with it because you're confident in your skills as a healer. Would a party have the same result if it was an inexperienced healer?

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

The most satisfying thing about tanks attempting to let other players die to teach them a lesson is using all my healing tools on whoever pulled, neglecting the tank if I have to.

The only lesson being taught is some humility.

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Sounds like your god complex is worse than some of the tanks I've run into.

But I'll happily switch off my stance and step aside for you to tank as healer if that's going to be your attitude.

That might actually solve some MMO issues - merge tank and healer roles into one since healing enmity is a powerful tool that affects all mobs in range instead of requiring a damaging attack to land to generate enmity. I always wish the other tank jobs had something like GMB's Aurora because works wonderfully for trash pulls. I never have to worry about trash chasing after my healer or DPS when I'm on GNB.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Dodging a question and false equivalence, a classic.
What does waiting for a tank mean? Pulling when a tank said "brb"? Pulling one second before a tank because you are a BRD? One does not feel like the other, although I believe this doesn't matter when arguing in bad faith.

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No sir. I don’t dodge questions. So don’t misinterpret. I’m all about the truth. And was merely pointing that your statement can be applied to both sides of the argument. Making it redundant. In fact I could be wrong if some sort of conclusive evidence proves DPS have always been the intended pullers in this game. It’s about establishing norms.

Now onto your direct questions with direct answers.

1. Waiting for a tank to pull means… well waiting for the tank to hit the mob first. If the tank AFKs it is customary to wait for them unless they say go ahead without me. Same with other party members really. Both do feel like the same imo, since you can delay your GCD by 1 second. But if the tank was already pulling that won’t likely raise any eyebrows.
2. Why a tank should always pull on FFXIV - I don’t know if they should, hence I proposed to ask. However, using logic and math tanks have ranged attacks, enmity generation AOEs and high defense making them statistically speaking the most resilient and well equipped class to pull.
3. It is in the gameplay, several dungeons have very hard hitting mobs that can take out DPS in three to five hits. The first one that comes to mind is bardams mettle. Having a dps pull with an inexperienced healer could easily divide his attention and a wipe could ensue since tanks lose their health rapidly in that dungeon.
4. It may be an unspoken rule. But I don’t think it should be. Hence an official statement or guide would be helpful.
5. This can apply to the dps as well, aiding the enemy could easily encompass a DPS pulling and splitting the healers attention thereby causing a wipe. Not everyone has max ilvl gear and knows how to weave Ogcd heals in properly and you’d be surprised how many new tanks don’t mitigate well.

So now I have questions for you.
1. Why do you think I argue in bad faith? Do my questions not stem from logic?
2. What mathematical/statistical merits do you think make DPS the better pullers? -I’m bored and impatient aren’t statistics.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I think you're skipping over the question again. The question is should they pull? Its obvious we all want a tank that is the bigger person and fixes problems instead of creating more. Or are you arguing its correct form and gameplay for the DPS and Healers to start pulling for the tank because they couldn't bother write in chat asking him to go faster?

You seem to imply the tank should definitely ask in party chat. That seems like a double standard.

While the intent is different, it is still wrong, so this is a case of two wrongs don't make a right.

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It ultimately doesn't really matter who pulls is what I'm saying. The whole idea of Tanks should pull derives from old MMOs where mobs were legitimately threatening enough that a DPS running ahead to grab extra was essentially suicide. At best, you'd have Range players grab something and kite but otherwise it simply didn't make sense for DPS or Healers to pull back then. Nowadays, especially in FFXIV, dungeon mobs hit like wet tissue paper. A Melee DPS with Bloodbath can tank an entire three pack pull themselves. Hell, they can even do a big pull with the occasional spot healing. Mobs are entirely non-threatening, thus who pulls is largely irrelevant. Hence why the standard is to pull everything. This puts the onus on the tank if they want to deviate from said expectation.

If I'm tanking and a DPS or Healer pulls more stuff intentionally I just take that as confirmation I can go a little harder (not that this happens often now anyway since I largely go w2w with a few exceptions). I'm not spiteful enough to waste everybody's time by chancing a healer losing valuable resources (so that they less effectively do their job) to heal a DPS or themselves when we can all just finish the duty faster if I swallow my pride, do my own job that I queued for, and just pick up the mob. It's not like generating aggro is difficult anymore.

The only instance in which I think it's a problem is when it happens and the party clearly can't handle it because of less capable healing or damage, and the offending individual continues that behavior after more than one wipe.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Sounds like your god complex is worse than some of the tanks I've run into.

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Is making a choice on who to heal in a situation in which I'm unable to keep two people alive having a god complex?

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Is making a choice on who to heal in a situation in which I'm unable to keep two people alive having a god complex?

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Especially when one of those people is intentionally sandbagging. At that point it's just cooperating with the player who is actually playing the game too.

Popping sprint and doing big pulls is the meta. If you’re not popping sprint, people are gonna pull for you. Atleast that’s what I noticed. I always sprint and pull multiple groups and nobody pulls for me. So there’s that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

A simple, "Pls don't pull ahead. I'm still getting used to tanking" would suffice.

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Does a sprout with no job, viewing cutscene and their level not being sync with the pop up "a member is new to this duty" need to tell he is new or it's obvious enough?

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

Does a sprout with no job, viewing cutscene and their level not being sync with the pop up "a member is new to this duty" need to tell he is new or it's obvious enough?

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Considering that we do have players that level up alt characters, which appear as sprouts, who know how to play these jobs to great effect, yes, it's a good idea to get used to typing words at people. And even if they're not an alt, some players are more adept at playing games, even this one, than others. We can't assume either way, but if the pace ramps up and no one says anything then it's no one's fault if someone feels too much pressure except for the person who didn't speak up.

YPYT will never not be pathetic behavior, regardless of how you view the DPS pulling issue.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

YPYT will never not be pathetic behavior, regardless of how you view the DPS pulling issue.

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Yep. It's just petty. I used to be THAT guy once upon a time but eventually I realized the error of my ways. It accomplishes nothing but slowing everyone down and making oneself look like a complete tool.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

In this scenario, the tank should type in chat asking that the DPS/Healer not pull ahead of them. And to do so without snippy remarks implying how they'll let them die or whatever. A simple, "Pls don't pull ahead. I'm still getting used to tanking" would suffice. If they continuously do so, then the tank has a better argument. Granted, in most cases, GMs will advise you to simply leave the dungeon. Now you could argue the DPS/Healer should ask beforehand, and we can certainly debate that.

Nevertheless, when the DPS/Healer pull, they aren't intending to cause a wipe even if one occurs. A tank refusing to take aggro is deliberately griefing another player. The intent is what separates the two.

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They don't listen. I've seen it as the tank and healer and one of the dps. And I've seen a couple of the reasons why in this thread. The dps or healer are bored or have the "You gon' learn" type mentality that they get to decide where the tank's limits are, even if the tank has directly stated them. And people just think this is okay. They don't have to think about anyone else in their party, just themselves.

Best thing a tank can do is just try to AoE so nobody can try to claim they were griefing and if there's a wipe, well, they did try to warn them.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

Does a sprout with no job, viewing cutscene and their level not being sync with the pop up "a member is new to this duty" need to tell he is new or it's obvious enough?

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Hate to be that person but in a situation where you're not needed(I.E. everyone is pulling without you just fine) that's the best place to learn.
Your personal failures have no weight on the party and you can take your time adjusting to how things are going to be.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

So now I have questions for you.
1. Why do you think I argue in bad faith? Do my questions not stem from logic?
2. What mathematical/statistical merits do you think make DPS the better pullers? -I’m bored and impatient aren’t statistics.

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"If the tank AFKs it is customary to wait for them unless they say go ahead without me". No, if someone AFKs, it is customary to wait for them. The role they play is completely irrelevant, which is why you should be more precise on what "waiting for the tank" actually entails.

1. Because you dodged my question and came up with a false equivalence. You are still arguing in bad faith because there is no way you could read the previous replies and deduce "Yep, these guys are saying that DPS/healers should actually always pull and that they are objectivelly better equipped to do so". What we are saying is that who pulls ultimately doesn't matter.
2. Wrong question aside (see my previous reply), we do have reasons as to why a DPS pulling is not the end of the world/optimal. Some DPS have Arm's Lenght, which is (also) a mitigation tool. Pulling a group of enemies, letting AL pop and letting the tank take over is optimal. DPS also have cooldowns and buffs to keep up. Should a BRD lose a fully charged Pitch Perfect because they can't pull? Should a DNC lose a Standard (or worse, Technical) Step because they can't pull? Dualcast? Summon charges? And so on? For no good reason at all?

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4. It may be an unspoken rule. But I don’t think it should be. Hence an official statement or guide would be helpful.

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This doesn't make sense. You think a tank should always pull - valid, it's your opinion. We are debating. There's is no official statement nor guide that speaks against a non-tank pulling. We have, however, an official statement that clearly says that behaviour you are condoning in this very topic is forbidden/reportable. So what gives?

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

As someone who likes tanking dungeons I've noticed a trend, at least on Materia, of DPS and Healers deciding to pull.

This can be in the form of using a ranged attack on an enemy I haven't reached yet (waiting to get into melee range for an AoE). Or if I pause for 3 seconds after a boss to take a drink of water, by the time I put the bottle back down the DPS has run off

I am not talking about the case where the tank only pulls one or two packs and the healer is encouraging to pull more by bringing a few friends. This isn't a small packs vs wall to wall issue.

I don't remember really ever seeing this on NA/JP DCs but maybe that's changed too?
Is this something players on other DCs are seeing?

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This is something people do to me when I tank and I don't actually care. Do you know why that is? You usually have to do a single attack or perhaps... TWO!? to get your aggro back. It's not that big of a deal.

I will admit that I do it too and usually it isn't a big deal, but then you'll get a cry baby every once in a while who can't be bothered to press buttons they were already pressing because i tOoK CoNtRoL FrOm ThEm. I just take the penalty once they freak out.

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Originally Posted by rewd

"If the tank AFKs it is customary to wait for them unless they say go ahead without me". No, if someone AFKs, it is customary to wait for them. The role they play is completely irrelevant

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Did you read the rest of the sentence? I'd say this was selectively clipped in bad faith...

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Originally Posted by rewd

We have, however, an official statement that clearly says that behaviour you are condoning in this very topic is forbidden/reportable.

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I gave you examples of how a DPS pulling could be perceived as aiding the enemy. So the rule isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. Are you also choosing to ignore that?

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Originally Posted by rewd

Some DPS have Arm's Lenght, which is (also) a mitigation tool. Pulling a group of enemies, letting AL pop and letting the tank take over is optimal.

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No.... Its not lol. in an optimal scenario a tank hits sprint lands an AOE on each pack until they reach a natural wall. Getting the DPS to pull off arms length on 2 packs of mobs and then having the tank get aggro off him before the dps dies would be a bit of a nightmare. Especially because that ability sometimes has a weird delay and doesn't go off on the first hit. Not to mention tanks also have them and you would be burning some of the healers OGCDs on the DPS unless they choose to leave him with 30-40% HP

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Originally Posted by Nubrication

Popping sprint and doing big pulls is the meta. If you’re not popping sprint, people are gonna pull for you. Atleast that’s what I noticed. I always sprint and pull multiple groups and nobody pulls for me. So there’s that.

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This is it, just keep normal pull pace and no one will pull for you, that someone is pulling for you is just indicating that you're not going fast enough for normal players and you need to speed up.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

So now I have questions for you.
1. Why do you think I argue in bad faith? Do my questions not stem from logic?
2. What mathematical/statistical merits do you think make DPS the better pullers? -I’m bored and impatient aren’t statistics.

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I mean, the logic is sort of already here in this thread, is it not?
Sure, tanks have higher enmity skills and higher defense, but that doesn't mean that when dps or healers pull, they can't just grab that aggro if it's brought to them. It's...really not that deep my friend. This isn't algebra.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

I mean, the logic is sort of already here in this thread, is it not?
Sure, tanks have higher enmity skills and higher defense, but that doesn't mean that when dps or healers pull, they can't just grab that aggro if it's brought to them. It's...really not that deep my friend. This isn't algebra.

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Edit... *I'm* not arguing that though. You just said something almost everyone universally agrees with. Its the DPS pulling and thinking they are in right for it that I don't buy. Granted high ilvl players and vets can trivialize things but imo its a bad take when the game combines high and low skill players by design. People only like seeing the perspective that best suits them..

YPYT advocates displaying more maidenless behavior yet again

https://images.nintendolife.com/2e72...read.large.jpg

If a healer/DPS pulls, just use your AoE rotation and you're golden (use mitigations for trash. They're not really needed for the wet noodle bosses). They're not making your job harder, tanking is the easiest job to play in this game (thanks to Shadowbringers), tanks do not control the pace, every single dungeon plays out mostly exactly the same (♫trash pack, boss, trash pack, boss, trash pack, final boss♫) etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Did you read the rest of the sentence? I'd say this was selectively clipped in bad faith...

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More like "Posts have a character limit and I don't have to post a comment and then edit it to circumvent the issue because people with good arguments don't need to nitpick and deviate attention". Clearly I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I gave you examples of how a DPS pulling could be perceived as aiding the enemy. So the rule isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. Are you also choosing to ignore that?

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"Imagine you are in Bardam. Imagine there is a DPS pulling. Also imagine that the tank is apparently in Narnia, busy on the toilet because they can't take aggro. Also imagine an inexperienced healer that have their attention this divided [between what?]. Checkmate, undeniable proof that the ToS is unclear because reasons.

I appreciate the creativity, though. Also, you either aid or don't aid an enemy. There is no such thing as "perceived aid".

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Originally Posted by Ath192

No.... Its not lol. in an optimal scenario a tank hits sprint lands an AOE on each pack until they reach a natural wall. Getting the DPS to pull off arms length on 2 packs of mobs and then having the tank get aggro off him before the dps dies would be a bit of a nightmare. Especially because that ability sometimes has a weird delay and doesn't go off on the first hit. Not to mention tanks also have them and you would be burning some of the healers OGCDs on the DPS unless they choose to leave him with 30-40% HP

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It is optimal, you are arguing that it is hard to pull off (which is... funny), not that it isn't a benefit. Not only DPS have ways to heal themselves (especially melee), but:

a) unless you play with comatose monkeys, a non-tank sitting at 30-40% HP during a pull (assuming they even get that low...) should hardly concern you as they are not meant to take damage
b) they will be healed by incidental AoE healing (Assize, Earthly Star, Whispering Dawn, Physis, just to name a few)
c) you can commit the cardinal sin of getting good™ and put regen/shield on them before the pull starts

PS: you are dodging questions again. We are way past the point where I think you might just be missing them in good faith.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

People only like seeing the perspective that best suits them..

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This is ironic.

Huh morbid curiosity overtook a Mia and oh lookie! Level 90 Warrior and golds and purples everywhere. Am now thinking troll and I wasted the time but at the least I hopes my posts help someone..

Bowing out of this here thread, twas fun.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

This is ironic.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4bIXVTsJck

I don't know why but as I read this I thought of this song and picturing someone singing this song poorly in abject horror of the entire conversation unfolding. Similar to the beauty that can be found in my heart will go on played poorly on the recorder.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

D'aw. I feel like I'm the only person on the planet who likes the original a lot more than the Disturbed version. They're different in feel and the original feels a bit chilling to me.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEppFUWLfc

This is my favorite version. I love Disturbed's version as well because David Draiman is just amazing, but I was always most fond of Simon and Garfunkel though the studio version is always missing that small amount of atmosphere the live versions have the boxer as well is one of my favorites too though Mumford and Sons does a gosh darn good job with their cover of the song.

This thread was never meant to be about:
Big pulls: tanks typically all learn this anyway. Its rude beyond belief to try to force this on a sprout in a 1-50 dungeon, but generally beyond that its easy enough to coach someone into it
YPYT: As long as you bring the mobs to me, Ill grab the aggro. No issue here.
Popping sprint: The funny thing is, when I DPS I find its still more common to NOT pop sprint in the lower level dungeons. I have *never* once seen someone suggest it in a party. that said, if I have my invuln skill Ill typically use sprint healer dependent.

This is more about those times where I am waiting for everyone to zone into next area (healer in particular). Or when I want to take a drink. Or maybe someone didn't know a mechanic on the boss we just killed and I'm pointing it out for next time

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

Does a sprout with no job, viewing cutscene and their level not being sync with the pop up "a member is new to this duty" need to tell he is new or it's obvious enough?

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Yes, actually. For exactly the reason MintnHoney said. Half the time I don't even pay attention to the new player bonus because I'm either alt-tabbing while the cut scene plays or doing something else. I doubt I'm the only one. It's better for new players to announce they're new to tanking. Granted, in my experience, sprouts are often far more willing to try going outside their comfort zones than the "veteran" players who can't be bothered to learn how to tank properly.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They don't listen. I've seen it as the tank and healer and one of the dps. And I've seen a couple of the reasons why in this thread. The dps or healer are bored or have the "You gon' learn" type mentality that they get to decide where the tank's limits are, even if the tank has directly stated them. And people just think this is okay. They don't have to think about anyone else in their party, just themselves.

Best thing a tank can do is just try to AoE so nobody can try to claim they were griefing and if there's a wipe, well, they did try to warn them.

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They don't have to. The point is protecting yourself by essentially intent. If the tank says something beforehand and the DPS still run ahead, then a GM is far more likely to wave it off because an attempt was made. Contrast this to immediately throwing a fit the Bard grabbed some friends and turning off your tank stance. Only one looks like intentional griefing, which is all the GMs are about. As for DPS or Healers being bored. It really boils down to majority rules. If three people wanna go fast, why should the tank be allowed to dictate otherwise. At least give it a chance and see how things go. Most people are fine with a tank who tries and fails compared to a tank refusing to even put their foot forward. It also depends on the dungeon you're doing. I'm sorry but you're no longer new at Holminster Switch. If you still don't know how to rotate CDs for big pulls, go back to the ARR and learn. Don't queue into DF and demand everyone else adjust. We have Trusts for that.

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Originally Posted by rewd

More like "Posts have a character limit and I don't have to post a comment and then edit it to circumvent the issue because people with good arguments don't need to nitpick and deviate attention". Clearly I was wrong.


"Imagine you are in Bardam. Imagine there is a DPS pulling. Also imagine that the tank is apparently in Narnia, busy on the toilet because they can't take aggro. Also imagine an inexperienced healer that have their attention this divided [between what?]. Checkmate, undeniable proof that the ToS is unclear because reasons.

I appreciate the creativity, though. Also, you either aid or don't aid an enemy. There is no such thing as "perceived aid".


It is optimal, you are arguing that it is hard to pull off (which is... funny), not that it isn't a benefit. Not only DPS have ways to heal themselves (especially melee), but:

a) unless you play with comatose monkeys, a non-tank sitting at 30-40% HP during a pull (assuming they even get that low...) should hardly concern you as they are not meant to take damage
b) they will be healed by incidental AoE healing (Assize, Earthly Star, Whispering Dawn, Physis, just to name a few)
c) you can commit the cardinal sin of getting good™ and put regen/shield on them before the pull starts

PS: you are dodging questions again. We are way past the point where I think you might just be missing them in good faith.

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I think the person arguing in bad faith is you. But at the end of the day you are a person that thinks it’s optimal for the dps to pull so they can land arms length on the mobs lol. So. Enough said.