In regards to something involving the main cast

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I've often wondered if we played the same game and maybe this is my answer. Even reading the same quest text we arrive at different conclusions.

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The whole premise of this thread is based on OP coming to a different conclusion reading the text of the MSQ. I still don’t know how he took our reaction from that scene as “adamant and shocked”.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I haven't done that quest yet so it's my first time reading through the dialog. Am I missing something? The only thing I see the WoL added were flowers. They already had rites they performed and said that the WoL's addition 'elevated' it.

I've often wondered if we played the same game and maybe this is my answer. Even reading the same quest text we arrive at different conclusions.

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what i got was the added aspect was openly mourning their passing whereas before it was a ritual made in elpis to return the dead back to the star quicker.

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Alkaios: Vessels within which life once flowed; cheated of purpose, stilled and cold. Unto the land you now return, the fuel 'pon which new life shall burn.

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There's no reason to hold a eulogy if the only purpose is to "expedite aetherial dissipation".

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Maira: That was a beautiful service. I like to think it brought some joy to their departed souls, much as one feels when receiving a thoughtful gift.
Charmion: Yes, the flowers were the perfect addition. How fortunate we are to have this knowledgeable familiar in our midst!
Sokles: We must return and commit this event to parchment while it remains fresh in our minds─a potential shift in our traditions is a historical moment worth recording.

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They're merely modifying an already existing tradition with the addition of flowers the WoL suggested.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The whole premise of this thread is based on OP coming to a different conclusion reading the text of the MSQ. I still don’t know how he took our reaction from that scene as “adamant and shocked”.

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Interpreting tone of dialog is one thing. Claiming quest text doesn't say what it says is entirely another.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Interpreting tone of dialog is one thing. Claiming quest text doesn't say what it says is entirely another.

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The quest text doesn't say eulogy, funeral, or rites though.

They also end the quest by acting like it's a brand new thing they've just done, which leaves me wondering if Alkaios always says an incantation like that, or if he gussied it up a bit because of the extra effort everyone else was putting in.
The flowers are a nice touch and all, but calling them 'a historical moment worth recording' seems a bit much.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So if taking care and being kind to them makes it okay…then what makes the ancients wrong for what they do? They have literal funeral rites for them. Also….then can you try and explain the colosseum where people rip animals apart for sport and entertainment? Not even just for survival? Or what about the Eden primals. They were very much alive and had emotions and we created them just to kill them.

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No I also said that they are bascially magical constructs. They are NOT alive. They probably dont even have any sort of emotions and just say what the casters wanted them to say. Yet still Ysthola showed care for them. The creations the ancient in Elpis create are living beings. They are meant to breed and be released onto the earth. Yet even though they are alive, they are unmade in a blink of an eye because someone did not like their design. Heck even we, who we have souls and emotions (and seemingly are sentient enough) are sent out in fates against horrible beasts, with the risks of us dieing. The ancients of these specifics fates were more than fine with that though, since it would save them from risking their own lives.

This is the difference.

Primals are also not quite clear. We know from Titan that they are deeply influenced by the casters and we have no idea if they really can emote on their own or if its just what the casters wanted them to be. (Just like how Garuda and the others are much more different when they are summoned to help us)

The other example makes no sense to use in this topic because this is about the Main cast. The rest of the world can be a horrible place which is already quite established by everyone. So not really sure why you need to bring that up? Bascially what it ends up though is that the Ancients are not better than us in many regards (unlike the picture that Emet wanted to paint them). So just like we are able to point out any flaws that the sundered have, we should also be allowed to point out the flaws the ancient have without the need to make it a competition.

None of the characters are perfect (thankfully), but overall the Scions are just simply good people.

(And the funeral rites was something WE introduced to them. Before us they bascially just went there and returned their aether to the star. It was through all the quests with us that these side npcs started to think about their actions. We bascially can tell them about our feelings and how we see those things and the do say that their thought process has gone stale and that our ideas brought fresh wind there. Which included our tradition to give flowers to deceased beings. Using that as an example for the Ancient is thus imo wrong.)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

They do. This was pointed out both in ShB side quests and in Elpis. The whole reason we have to kill the butterflies is because Emet refuses to conjure a robe for us and we can't make one ourselves. Otherwise, no butterflies would've been harmed.

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I know which is why we maybe were able to point that out. (Since we knew that someone like Emet was able to create a whole city with his power) It was completely unnecessary to kill these butterflies and yet we had to do that and Hythlo bascially did not bat an eye for that. Which is the difference to us: We cant just create stuff out of thin air so we have to kill or harvest goods from animals. We are not doing it because we find it fun or because its less tedious, we simply have to do it. But at the same time the normal people are in turn also part of the hunt and can die by the same claws of the animals they tried to hunt. We are in the Circle of Life, unlike the Ancient who are above it.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I haven't done that quest yet so it's my first time reading through the dialog. Am I missing something? The only thing I see the WoL added were flowers. They already had rites they performed and said that the WoL's addition 'elevated' it.

I've often wondered if we played the same game and maybe this is my answer. Even reading the same quest text we arrive at different conclusions.

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What they bascially did before we came was going to the creatures and using spells to make them "disappear" faster so that 1. the bodies are not left there to rot and 2. the aether can go back to the star faster. They bascially have a way to dispose their failed experiments in a fast and clean way. We told them about our customs thus they now might do more when a creation was killed before it could reach its design goals.

They also only do this when there is an unexpected turn of mass death.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

reading through the quest it reads like the wol introduced the mourning aspect to the ritual while before it was simply a way to return dead creations back to the world faster.
for example



im not calling them heartless, the quest proves otherwise, im just saying i don't think its a mourning ritual.

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Nope, it reads like a physical reminder is being added, and that is exactly what that text is alluding to, and that is exactly what you suggest during the dialogue options - as Kizuya pointed out, it is an addition. Hopefully the poster who tried to correct him on this will save the source so he remembers where to find it next time.

Don't forget that the "funeral" wasn't done for disposed creations, it was meant for promising experiments acidentally killed for no fault of their own, like in that specific case where they "mourned" a group of beings killed by a failed, over-agressive species, one that was to be put down with no fanfarre at all.
Rather than mourning the lives lost, it's more like they were bothered by their efforts spent being wasted

The Elpis example isn't so strong, but your main question is one that pops up for me now and then.

I had hoped to see it due to the Shadowbringer's opening cutscene..and I felt it was addressed somewhat in the Garlemald arch and had hoped we would explore more of it: To some people in the world (maybe even ourselves), we are a mass murdering avatar of death.

I mean, sure, it's a conflict between nations and all..but our character specifically has killed over a hundred thousand individuals (including everything). Even get a Butcher's crown for it.

A huge chunk of that is people, or at least beastfolk.

I've had friends/family in the military, and while I haven't asked and most would rather not talk about it, I've yet to meet someone who'd admit to killing more than, say, 10 people in the line of duty. I can't imagine the mental state of a soldier with a kill count of a hundred, let alone a thousand.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I've had friends/family in the military, and while I haven't asked and most would rather not talk about it, I've yet to meet someone who'd admit to killing more than, say, 10 people in the line of duty. I can't imagine the mental state of a soldier with a kill count of a hundred, let alone a thousand.

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We do kill alot of people but I am not sure if we should take ingame achivements into account. After all the gathering I have done according to the achievements there should be no tree or rock left in the world.

We also dont know if we always kill or if some are knocked out.

But yes overall we have killed quite a few (a topic which does in a way come up in the Dark Knight quest), yet in a lot of conflicts we are also at war, where killing is sadly something that will happen.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

The Elpis example isn't so strong, but your main question is one that pops up for me now and then.

I had hoped to see it due to the Shadowbringer's opening cutscene..and I felt it was addressed somewhat in the Garlemald arch and had hoped we would explore more of it: To some people in the world (maybe even ourselves), we are a mass murdering avatar of death.

I mean, sure, it's a conflict between nations and all..but our character specifically has killed over a hundred thousand individuals (including everything). Even get a Butcher's crown for it.

A huge chunk of that is people, or at least beastfolk.

I've had friends/family in the military, and while I haven't asked and most would rather not talk about it, I've yet to meet someone who'd admit to killing more than, say, 10 people in the line of duty. I can't imagine the mental state of a soldier with a kill count of a hundred, let alone a thousand.

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Think another example in relation to ShB is the whole time travel aspect. ShB literally has graha saying if history is to be unwritten let it be unwritten. Meanwhile, in EW, nope not allowed to help the ancients or change history. Not allowed to create a branching timeline or anything.

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Originally Posted by Luizgazen

Don't forget that the "funeral" wasn't done for disposed creations, it was meant for promising experiments acidentally killed for no fault of their own, like in that specific case where they "mourned" a group of beings killed by a failed, over-agressive species, one that was to be put down with no fanfarre at all.
Rather than mourning the lives lost, it's more like they were bothered by their efforts spent being wasted

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I think that's rather disingenuous framing given the numerous side quests showing that many of the Ancients throughout Elpis cared for their creations. Even in cases where Ancients believed the player character was little more than a familiar there's multiple examples of Ancients expressing concern about the player character's aether and even offering to fortify it.

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Rather than mourning the lives lost, it's more like they were bothered by their efforts spent being wasted

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That was a beautiful service. I like to think it brought some joy to their departed souls, much as one feels when receiving a thoughtful gift.

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Yeah, sure.

We’re cutting out important dialogue again I see.

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Sokles: This is them─the okyupetes which fell victim to the lykaones.

Maira: They were still being evaluated, yes? The poor things, they barely had a chance to fulfill their design...

Alkaios: Their flesh and bones will return to the land. We will ensure that their existence was not in vain.

Charmion: Seeing life taken mid-purpose can be distressing. Have you witnessed such events before, Forename?

Tell me: how do you express yourself at these times?

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It’s that the lives were “mid-purpose” that upsets them, not the fact they were gone. If they died because they were failures, or died of natural causes no one would care. Except for Hermes.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

If they died because they were failures, or died of natural causes no one would care.

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You can’t say this though because there are specific things that refute this. From some of the people being concerned about our well-being as a familiar to the way a lot of them speak about creations in their dialogue. It seems like a lot of people in here are reading things with their ancient hate glasses on. Smell the roses people.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You can’t say this though because there are specific things that refute this. From some of the people being concerned about our well-being as a familiar to the way a lot of them speak about creations in their dialogue. It seems like a lot of people in here are reading things with their ancient hate glasses on. Smell the roses people.

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Oh man, I’ll should go tell that researcher who said if we die it’s ok so long as we don’t fuck up his creation that he actually does care about us!

And they quite literally say that in that quest dialogue I quoted. You’re arguing that it’s not true with the dialogue showing it is right above part you quoted!

Some quests show the Ancients is a good caring light, and some show them in a bad uncaring light.

I don't know what the takeaway was meant to be, but I got the impression that they're basically just the Sundered but with better magic and longer lives, which makes perfect sense because that's exactly what they are.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Oh man, I’ll should go tell that researcher who said if we die it’s ok so long as we don’t fuck up his creation that he actually does care about us!

And they quite literally say that in that quest dialogue I quoted. You’re arguing that it’s not true with the dialogue showing it is right above part you quoted!

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One person out of how many? Please lol. The bias is immeasurable here.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

One person out of how many? Please lol. The bias is immeasurable here.

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Smash cut to Hyth talking about how returning to the star after fulfilling one’s duty is “always beautiful” and how they seem aghast that Meteion uses the word die. Or the researchers who repeatedly asked Venat when she’s going to return. But sure I’m biased against them.

Truthfully, I think you fundamentally don’t understand the Ancients and their thinking.

Look I don’t think they have to be cruel or evil to believe that one’s purpose is all that matters, and that it’s awesome that people achieve that. My issue however, is that does give rise to certain problems.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Smash cut to Hyth talking about how returning to the star after fulfilling one’s duty is “always beautiful” and how they seem aghast that Meteion uses the word die. Or the researchers who repeatedly asked Venat when she’s going to return. But sure I’m biased against them.

Truthfully, I think you fundamentally don’t understand the Ancients and their thinking.

Look I don’t think they have to be cruel or evil to believe that one’s purpose is all that matters, and that it’s awesome that people achieve that. My issue however, is that does give rise to certain problems.

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Oh i don’t understand but you do right? In your various posts trying to dig deep and bash them for the same things the sundered do but far worse. What does returning to the star being seen as beautiful have to do with their view on creations? You’re literally trying to argue they had no funeral rites when it’s explicitly stated with supporting dialogue that they did, and the only thing the WoL contributed was the flowers. You and others are specifically ignoring this proof when given and still trying to dig into every nook and cranny looking for something to prove that they’re “wrong.” In the end though, either conclusion doesn’t matter in the long run because i don’t see the ancients tearing apart and spilling blood for sport and entertainment for rich folk. We can see that happening in Uldah though, and i don’t see anyone there offering prayer.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Some quests show the Ancients is a good caring light, and some show them in a bad uncaring light.

I don't know what the takeaway was meant to be, but I got the impression that they're basically just the Sundered but with better magic and longer lives, which makes perfect sense because that's exactly what they are.

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Yeah, which has always been my point. There inherently stronger in magic but that's it. In every other way there just like the Sundered. There are people in Elpis who really are very kind, there are people there bordering on cruel. It literally varies by side quest.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Oh i don’t understand but you do right? In your various posts trying to dig deep and bash them for the same things the sundered do but far worse. What does returning to the star being seen as beautiful have to do with their view on creations?

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Because if the reason why you exist is tied to a specific goal, and you fulfill that, then what reason do you have for living? When you view everything as having an explicit purpose how does that impact your view of others? When the Okyupetes completed testing do you think they’d care about whether they lived or died? If they were failures no they wouldn’t because we’ve seen how they treat failures, if they were successes they’d care right up until the moment they reproduced.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re literally trying to argue they had no funeral rites when it’s explicitly stated with supporting dialogue that they did, and the only thing the WoL contributed was the flowers.

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I don’t view throwing bodies in the compost heap as funeral rites. You got me there.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You and others are specifically ignoring this proof when given and still trying to dig into every nook and cranny looking for something to prove that they’re “wrong.”

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Isn’t it a good thing to think about these things? Isn’t that what you’ve argued in the past, that we should look at the game deeply? Why is it that suddenly a problem here?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

In the end though, either conclusion doesn’t matter in the long run because i don’t see the ancients tearing apart and spilling blood for sport and entertainment for rich folk. We can see that happening in Uldah though, and i don’t see anyone there offering prayer.

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Whataboutism.

This isn’t about whether one side is morally right or wrong, but about whether one is capable of change or not. The Ancients built a god to prevent change. It’d be like after Bahamut was defeated Ul’Dah kept Nald’thal around to protect their monarchy.

Wow. Some of these replies are so disingenuous. At least the masks are off now for all to see.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Wow. Some of these replies are so disingenuous. At least the masks are off now for all to see.

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there havent been masks for a while. for both sides.

edit: i mean the thread itself was made to say theres a double standard going on because of yshtolas nixies.

The original topic was "why is it fine for the Sundered to do similar things?"

I don't really fully buy the 'power level' thing personally... a chihuahua biting you does less damage than a pitbull, but I don't find either acceptable. Even if the dog can somehow end the universe by mauling my face and the other can't.

The sundered are also not totally weak and helpless, more than capable of impressive feats like building (and then dropping down) an artificial moon... among other things. The whole Ultima Thule thing, and the Sharlayans looking to explore space where Dynamis is at its strongest also makes me wonder. Creation magics were pretty volatile... but literal feely magic that goes by the rule of cool in space? Being overwhelmed by emotion and transforming into a beast (which I believe is still possible as of 6.1 unless I'm wrong)?

Could be pretty bad if the wrong person gets the wrong idea and decides to master this... though I doubt we're ever going to do anything in the Sea of Stars again so it's just speculation. Could make for a cool story.

There is, however, a tear into a hell-dimension... thankfully, we have the WoL to go full Doomguy, so surely, nothing will go wrong, right?

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

there havent been masks for a while. for both sides.

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Respectfully disagree. This is how the last few pages have gone:

NPC: "And then I partook of the most delicious peach!"
Lore poster #1: There was no mention of peaches anywhere in that dialog.
Lore poster #2: It doesn't say NPC ate the peach.
Lore poster #3: I don't respect anyone who trashes fruit like that.
Me: WTF?!

I've known good faith arguments weren't happening here for months, but this is whole other level.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Truthfully, I think you fundamentally don’t understand the Ancients and their thinking.

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At least we understand them better than you do uwu

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

My issue however, is that does give rise to certain problems.

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A problem that only arise because you use your standard to judge a race that have different custom and life compared to us mortal?

And you accused us for being bias. What a joke.

I wouldn't consider Kozh's post to be obnoxious. Calling someone out for saying 'yOu DoN't UnDeRsTaNd ThE aNcIeNtS' strikes me as far more fitting for such a term to be used.

As has been pointed out many times, it's perfectly acceptable for people to agree to disagree when it comes to the more nuanced aspects of the game's setting. Certainly, I wouldn't consider anyone posting in this thread to be the supreme authority on something as complicated and open ended as the subject of morality.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I wouldn't consider Kozh's post to be obnoxious. Calling someone out for saying 'yOu DoN't UnDeRsTaNd ThE aNcIeNtS' strikes me as far more fitting for such a term to be used.

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I will firmly stand beside my position that not incorporating Hermes statements/feelings on Ancient society, as well as ignoring the dialogue about how they view lives that succeed in their “purpose” vs. lives that don’t, will lead you to fundamentally misunderstanding what the narrative is trying to say about the Ancients. The story focuses on that for a reason and many people in this thread are rightfully bringing it up.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Certainly, I wouldn't consider anyone posting in this thread to be the supreme authority on something as complicated and open ended as the subject of morality.

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I’m really glad I didn’t do that and said explicitly

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This isn’t about whether one side is morally right or wrong

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Yeah, which has always been my point. There inherently stronger in magic but that's it. In every other way there just like the Sundered. There are people in Elpis who really are very kind, there are people there bordering on cruel. It literally varies by side quest.

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People are people, and that can be statement full of optimism or pessimism.

I daresay some of us simply don't believe that a society necessarily needs to make sweeping changes each and every time some spiteful saboteur decides to have a breakdown. As has been pointed out many times already, the Ancients weren't incapable of change or taking new ideas into account. It's simply a case where both Hermes and Venat decided to write them off and set off the equivalent of a nuke instead of making any real effort to be open and honest.

My own stance has always consistently been that I believe that the Unsundered had every right to do whatever possible in order to preserve and continue their society and species, though so too did the Sundered. As such, as was the case in Shadowbringers it was nothing more than a clash of like-wills and was even presented as such in the narrative.

Neither side would back down and roll over - for obvious reasons - and so it was inevitable that one side would be wiped out. Then Endwalker swung around and resorted to deceptive caricatures that reduced the complexities of character motives and stripped agency from pretty much everyone (Venat included) in order to try and frame Venat as being responsible for absolutely everything that happened. Right down to being the one who allowed Emet to escape the Sundering.

Though this has been discussed at length many times already and I think it's fine for people to have different takes on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think that's rather disingenuous framing given the numerous side quests showing that many of the Ancients throughout Elpis cared for their creations. Even in cases where Ancients believed the player character was little more than a familiar there's multiple examples of Ancients expressing concern about the player character's aether and even offering to fortify it.

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And as I've said repeatedly, there's others who don't care like the Ancient who pits us against his concepts over and over to test them and says nothing of their deaths except "interesting" and cheers against us, expecting us to die against his latest monster.

Despite how much they all try to be the same and hide their differences behind masks and robes, the Ancients are not cut from the same cloth and are not a monolith. Just because some of them have a funeral for dead concepts doesn't mean their society as a whole is absolved of anything bad they've done and it's not like it matters either. The Ancients as a whole are interesting, but they don't need to be "pure" in order for you to like them. The Ancients are not the perfect people others pretend they are and they were not written to be that way either. The fact the writers named their city and a character from a 500 year old book about a falsely idyllic paradise says as much.

I think the thing that's the most telling in all of this is that no one here cared about familiars either until Y'shtola created 2 of them and sent them to the Void. The nixies are no different from carbuncles. Both are familiars, both are made out of nothing but aether, both can be dismissed and turn into nothingness. I wonder if you guys would still be upset if she sent carbuncles into the void since they're familiars that we're more familiar with and used to seeing being sent into combat.

The argument isn't that the Ancients were perfect so much as they didn't deserve to have some deluded nutter waltz in, inflict genocide upon them, declare herself to be a 'supreme deity' and then try to stifle all memory of their existence.

I don't care about the 'moral' stuff, it's a video game at the end of the day. Not the real world. I just like and desire consistency. If a game's story is going to fill my screen with lengthy sophistry fuelled rants from characters that are given every possible advantage in order to succeed then I'd rather not see the game apply its supposed 'rules' across the board and not hide the actual consequences of the likes of the Sundering behind feel good, fluffy language.

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despite how much they all try to be the same and hide their differences behind masks and robes, the Ancients are not cut from the same cloth and are not a monolith. Just because some of them have a funeral for dead concepts doesn't mean their society as a whole is absolved of anything bad they've done and it's not like it matters either.

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and this is why i love the ancients. despite having a society that's hyper focused on hiding individualism and embracing the journey to perfection they are ultimately flawed and human individuals.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

We do kill alot of people but I am not sure if we should take ingame achivements into account. After all the gathering I have done according to the achievements there should be no tree or rock left in the world.

We also dont know if we always kill or if some are knocked out.

But yes overall we have killed quite a few (a topic which does in a way come up in the Dark Knight quest), yet in a lot of conflicts we are also at war, where killing is sadly something that will happen.

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I mean, we all started the game with "go murder some wildlife, like 5 of each, just to get a feel for how to kill things"

Hot Take:

what if all this disagreement/misunderstanding is down to a difference in their character's emote in that cutscene.

Like I have an emote that is more of a "thinking something" while my wife is "looks nervous/uncomfortable..maybe needs a toilet".

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The argument isn't that the Ancients were perfect so much as they didn't deserve to have some deluded nutter waltz in, inflict genocide upon them, declare herself to be a 'supreme deity' and then try to stifle all memory of their existence.

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https://i.imgur.com/zIOeuPv.jpg

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I think the thing that's the most telling in all of this is that no one here cared about familiars either until Y'shtola created 2 of them and sent them to the Void. The nixies are no different from carbuncles. Both are familiars, both are made out of nothing but aether, both can be dismissed and turn into nothingness. I wonder if you guys would still be upset if she sent carbuncles into the void since they're familiars that we're more familiar with and used to seeing being sent into combat.

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I never cared about the nixies, I cared about the hypocrisy. What you just described is every Ancient creation, so I'm glad we can finally agree. I don't understand why this was ever a debate.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The argument isn't that the Ancients were perfect so much as they didn't deserve to have some deluded nutter waltz in, inflict genocide upon them, declare herself to be a 'supreme deity' and then try to stifle all memory of their existence.

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The Ancients didn't deserve it, but it's not as though Venat and Hermes were outside forces either. They didn't just "waltz in". They were both Ancients and products of the society in different ways. Venat's adventuring gave her a different point of view from the rest of her society and it's likely Azem was the same, even if she did not reach the same conclusions. But they both chaffed at the norms and questioned the heart of their culture. Hermes cared too much in an apathetic world and then went crazy after his creations that he programmed poorly gave him news he didn't want to hear and decided that he should test the world and end it all. Hopefully we get some sort of Tales from the Dawn or something that will go deeper into their reasons why they did what they did. There's no doubt that we'll have one from Venat's point of view.

I don't recall Hydaelyn referring to herself as a "supreme deity" but the Ascians sure had things to say about their own Dark Lord and Savior, Zodiark and about how great He is and how he will plunge the world into Darkness.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I never cared about the nixies, I cared about the hypocrisy. What you just described is every Ancient creation, so I'm glad we can finally agree. I don't understand why this was ever a debate.

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You haven't been paying attention to anything at all then.

Ancient Concepts/Creation magic - Can be anything from clothing, to cities, to creatures.

Concepts at Elpis - Flesh and blood creatures designed to become part of the ecosystem and even perhaps gain souls and become an integral part of the Lifestream and the circle of life. When these die in Elpis, they still remain as corpses as normal animals would.

Familiars - Both in the Ancient and modern days, beings created of pure aether and can be dismissed into aether. They are created for a specific task.


The heart at the debate is whether Y'shtola sending nixies into the Void is comparable to the Ancients' treatment of their concepts at Elpis and I say "no" because they're two different things. Familiars are not alive in the same way. They have a task embedded into their existence that shapes their entire reason for being. They do not have real bodies either. Nixies are water, porxies are clay (as one amaro found out when attempting to eat one), and carbuncles are a matrix of aether around a stone. A sidequest in Elpis even mentions that they're usually "fed" aether, not real food. Y'shtola's nixies don't even die, she dismisses them as one would dismiss a carbuncle.

Venat declared herself as having a different point of view to her brethren, though as others - particularly Lauront - have pointed out on numerous occasions that doesn't really line up with Hythlodaeus revealing that Emet-Selch is himself well travelled. Simply being part of a society doesn't give someone the right to utterly destroy it, either. Especially when there's ways to change a society without eradicating it from existence entirely - as we've seen from everywhere from Limsa Lominsa to Garlemald and Ala Mhigo to Doma.

As for the difference between Zodiark and Hydaelyn, the former actually actively defended the Unsundered and Sundered versions of Etheirys whereas the latter declared herself to be a 'supreme deity', failed to explain pretty much anything in a way that wasn't an outright lie or misdirection for most of the game's existence, declared that mankind must walk (whilst bestowing herself with wings, of course) and spent most of her time sitting in the aetherial sea encouraging other people to do the heavy lifting. So, yeah, I can see why Zodiark was considered to be a saviour figure by comparison. Especially when Hydaelyn didn't save her people, or her civilisation.

As for the usual 'yOu HaVeN't BeEn PaYiNg AtTeNtiOn' accusation, all I'll say is that sort of phrasing is incredibly disingenuous. It's precisely because some here are paying attention that they're even having this discussion in the first place as well as the reason behind Endwalker itself receiving mixed reactions.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The argument isn't that the Ancients were perfect so much as they didn't deserve to have some deluded nutter waltz in, inflict genocide upon them, declare herself to be a 'supreme deity' and then try to stifle all memory of their existence.

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Yeah, Nym, Mhach, Meracydia and Bozja didn't deserve what happened to them.

Wait, what was your point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, Nym, Mhach, Meracydia and Bozja didn't deserve what happened to them.

Wait, what was your point?

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Well, perhaps it's something you can make one of your next videos about! After all, as per the recent clarification Live Letter in relation to Endwalker's story Venat is the one ultimately responsible for everything that the Ascians went on to do. She's the one who chose to leave room for Emet to escape the Sundering and actively leaned on the Ascian plans as part of her own agenda. Nor were either the Sundered or the Unsundered ever obligated to just roll over and die for the sake of the other. Rather than blame the Ancients for doing everything possible in order to preserve their loved ones and civilisation I'm much more inclined to lay the blame at the feet of the very unbalanced and deluded woman who decided to stand by and allow an apocalypse to strike without warning only to throw a fit and resort to genocide because the survivors didn't react the way she wanted them to.

As for my point? Well, perhaps if certain posters hadn't spent a considerable amount of their time around these parts insisting that there was never a 'good reason' for acts of genocide only to turn around and proclaim that it's fully justified so long as 'mOmMy WiTh A sOfT vOiCe' does it then these debates wouldn't be so circular.

I'd say at this point, the question can be turned back right at you. What's your point? All of this has been pointed out many times already. Lore snippets have been provided by numerous posters backing up their arguments (such as Lauront's very detailed summaries of the events leading up to the Sundering) and yet the goalposts are always moved when instead this isn't a case of debating the lore at all - it's just an attempt at spin to erode away any and all blame from those who simply don't buy into the idea that Venat did everything she could in order to protect her people.

By all means, feel free to disagree but I can safely suggest that nobody in this thread is in any position to declare that their moral stance reigns supreme and there aren't any other stances allowed. Some of us are more interested in figuring out how and why something happened, rather than trying to claim that X, Y or Z is 'perfect' and 'always justified'.

Oh, no, I'm afraid you misunderstand. I'm not pro-Hydaelyn at all; she had her reasons, and we can't ever dismiss that every single character we interact with is either a benefactor of her actions or at this point extremely, absurdly dead. At this point being anti-Hydaelyn is like being anti-Julius Caesar; you can write all the arguments you want, but it's not going to have any influence on anybody because Julius Caesar has not directly influenced society in a very long time.

But what I am is anti-'very recent crimes with still-extant victims'. And... yeah, it turns out the Ascians have committed a lot of them. I would hope you agree, over in-universe history they haven't just committed many more acts of mass destruction than Hydaelyn, but did so with considerably less remorse, and with survivors and effects that echo into the present day. Just in the four I brought up (because I specifically avoided the 'puppeted into doing the horrible thing' civilizations), there are surviving Nymians and Bozjans that are still in great turmoil because of them; depending on where you are in certain other questlines, there might be some Mhachi souls with something to say as well. Hell, your favorite civilization in the game probably has the most objections of all among those still with large populations, as not only did one of the Ascians turn their peaceful society into a militarized empire as a pawn, but then another Ascian basically turned their entire empire to dust for fun. They ain't good people, and I don't see enough people around here call them out for that!

This is technically entirely unrelated to the points the OP brings up, but it's true to the spirit of the initial question, because... well, why is it that when two sides have ostensibly committed the same acts of violence, why does this subforum only pull the knives out against one of them?

(Incidentally, my next video is related to the Ascians quite directly, but I suspect you won't be the biggest fan of what I have to say about them. Largely unrelated to this, though.)