Hissatsu: Kaiten

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by localareanetwork

Nerfing SAM's Kenki generation would just make it suck if you didn't buff it elsewhere, which I don't know how you'd buff it enough to make up for the massive damage nerf from having less gauge without making it overpowered.

---

I don't know what the exact numbers would be but I'd imagine they could buff Shinten relative to how much less you use it. I'm sure they could figure something out if they actually went that route.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by localareanetwork

The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

---

I mean that's a issue with the combination of direct hit and crit. Honestly the direct hit stat could be easily removed from the game and it would solve a lot of problems. Its really only there to give players a different stat to play with over det and crit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by localareanetwork

The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

---

This isn't a problem exclusive to Midare or SAM... Just ask how Ninjas feel about their Hyosho which is something upwards of 1600 potency just from NIN's own buffs alone that will always be there for it, and when it doesn't CDH in the opener it feels terrible, the problem is not that these high pot abilities don't CDH, the problem is that CDH just suck as stats, they're boring, they're too strong, it's out of operator's control whether your ability will decide to do more than double damage or not, crit increasing abilities like Chain are so weak they feel like placebo and so on, the devs are correct in recognizing the symptom but they're missing the forest for the trees...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by localareanetwork

@ Above poster; That's what I don't get. Why do people think the job has resource management? It straight up doesn't. It didn't even in Shadowbringers.

---

Alrighty, say I agree. Then why do I have this giant tumor on my hud? While Square is at race to the bottom why not remove the job gauge? The fact we are even discussing resource management being irrelevant is problem in and of self. If anything it shows exactly how poorly the developers have handled job complexity. Pointless systems giving the illusion of complexity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

Notice how before the perplexing announcement to remove Kaiten, not a single person out there was saying things like “wow kaiten should be removed it’s a useless skill” or “I don’t like doing kaiten they should just bake the damage in”. It was just an accepted part of the job. But now that the devs announced their intention people have come out of the woodwork to defend the choice.

---

During previous live letter Yoshi P stated that enochain was removed because variance between those who maintained proper uptime and those who did not was too great. Eventually you will be able to face roll keyboard and hit golden numbers on the forbidden website. The goal appears to be decrease variance between low skilled and high skilled players across all jobs.

They need to knock this off. Some are just not as good as others. This is fact across all walks of life. You either accept that reality or you do not. You cannot make everyone as good as everyone else at everything.

Will never be as good as friends and family at RTS. I do not ramble incoherently on Blizzard forums about Zerglings being underpowered when my opponent builds Marauders because I refuse to build Roach Warren or Spire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

I know and understand why players are upset. I'm among them, but have felt SAM has gone awry since 6.0. The downward spiral hit me in the gut with the decision to remove Seigan. I underestimated just how much this would impact how SAM feels in combat. Removing Kaiten will no doubt impact how SAM feels even further.

That's what leads me to my main issues with SAM. They are stripping the job of what wasn't even a problem, and have added what no one was even asking for. The removal of Kaiten by itself is not the issue, it's the decision to fix what wasn't even broken.

---

Come to think of it, I actually miss Seigan a lot. It didn't add much for damage but I liked the feeling of using it even if it was just a contest of how mad you can make your healers in raid. It's not the first time SE decided to randomly remove skills from Samurai, like Hagakure which got added back the patch immediately after. I doubt they'll add Kaiten back in if it's removed though unless JP continues their vocal outcry.

Either way, I misread the intent of your post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Also Im starting ot believe people are straight up jumping to defend no matter what this decision since a lot of people are just saying "it doesn't add complexity"... yet the post itself said its not about that. Just repeating the same thing over and over and pretending other people are idiots for not knowing this is insulting.

---

It will remove literally the only thing at level 60 that allows the job to have some thought within it. I really don't care how it feels at 90 right now for me personally. Right now it looks like from reading the skills you spend your gauge on 2 things which are each I think a 2 minute window and one other skill you just I guess spam now and movement. I could be off base I am only at level 60 and was really enjoying the job but this might kill it for me. I will have nothing but the movement skills to use the gauge on so no more buffing Higianbana, Meikyo Shisui, or Midare Setsugekka nadda. Even if they buff those skills with Hissatsu: Kaiten passively as an ability it kind of takes the thought of what to use the skill on at that level. It will be (1,2,3), (1,4,5), (1,6) Midare in single target when Meikyo Shisui is off cooldown.

Just remove meditate and the gauge until whatever level at this point it is useless and not worth it to have there anymore. It just makes me upset I finally get to 60 get a job mechanic I can think about and it just get it taken away so I am literally doing the same rotation now at level 60 I was doing at level 50. There will literally be nothing different. It makes me angry because I know the devs are not playing through the leveling experience or thinking about how people are learning the job. They just edit their level to 90 and go from there. If you want to change things at 90 go for it but don't just remove a skills. And no square I am not buying a jump potion if that was the intention for most of these changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

Misshapenchair hits the nail on the head with why the changes make Samurai and less interesting and well designed job:

https://youtu.be/XIHj-1_Yn1U

---

I really liked his video and he put the changes in to words better than I ever could. I wish I got sam up to 90 already but have not so I have no clue how it feels at 90. I know the devs just wont give a damn and do whatever they want and never read these forums it just makes me watch as every skill is altered without any thought put into it. They have a board with all the job skills and just close their eyes and whatever it lands on today is the skill removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by localareanetwork

1. Use meditate during downtime.
2. Party buffs come up naturally when you reapply your dot and use ogi, so you'll have Ikishoten
3. Dunno how AST cards have anything to do with SAM Kenki Management. AST Cards are RNG so you can't possibly plan for when you get a melee card. Unrelated but I play AST too and I hate when it gives me too much of melee or ranged.
4. You're talking about the dash, I assume? You primarily use it to cancel knockback effects that you don't arms length. Which doesn't happen at all in this raid tier. The only time you use the dash at all even is when Hesperos uses Kothornos Kick after you soak your tower during Act 3. And even then, it's only 10 gauge, that's just one Sen combo

---

1. Downtime for melee is referring to anytime you can’t be in melee range hitting the boss this can include things like AOE avoidance which means you aren’t generating kenki then

2. Party buffs are the optimal place to use kenki on shintens, so good Sam players might hold onto kenki for this, you know the resource that apparently is not managed. If you are too overzealous then you can definitely be in a situation where you didn’t leave enough for kaiten

3. I listed AST cards because it’s a party buff that you’ll get between the main party buffs. You can’t plan for it but getting one is a fantastic time to use shintens. Observant sams will take advantage of this to… manage their gauge and optimize their damage. Someone playing in a way to only use shinten in a set way to always have 20 for kaiten at all times won’t be doing as much damage and those who smartly take advantage of buffs and take risks

4. There’s also the escape button. Let’s say you use the back dash to get out of a huge point blank AOE and it’s shortly before your dot, it’s very possible to to dash back in and then realize you don’t have twenty for the higanbana that you’re about to do. Good players will have spent their kenki knowing about this ahead of time and maybe had done one less shinten.

All of these scenarios and decision making we are talking about, even if you think they are easy and you never mess up on this, will no longer be happening after the patch. Saving 20 kenki for kaiten may be easy, but that is because experienced Sam players do it so much it’s second nature, it’s rare to be in that situation where you didn’t use enough, but now that thing you were keeping track, adding engagement to the job, is gone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

1. Downtime for melee is referring to anytime you can’t be in melee range hitting the boss this can include things like AOE avoidance which means you aren’t generating kenki then

2. Party buffs are the optimal place to use kenki shintens, so good Sam players might hold onto kenki for this, you know the resource that apparently is not managed. If you are too overzealous then you can definitely be in a situation where you didn’t leave enough for kaiten

3. I listed AST cards because it’s a party buff that you’ll get between the main party buffs. You can’t plan for it but getting one is a fantastic time to use shintens. Observant sams will take advantage of this to… manage their gauge and optimize their damage. Someone playing in a way to only use shinten in a set way to always have 20 for kaiten at all times won’t be doing as much damage and those who smartly take advantage of buffs and take risks

4. There’s also the escape button. Let’s say you use the back dash to get out of a huge point blank AOE and it’s shortly before your dot, it’s very possible to to dash back in and then realize you don’t have twenty for the higanbana that you’re about to do. Good players will have spent their kenki knowing about this ahead of time and maybe had done one less shinten.

All of these scenarios and decision making we are talking about, even if you think they are easy and you never mess up on this, will no longer be happening after the patch. Saving 20 kenki for kaiten may be easy, but that is because experienced Sam players do it so much it’s second nature, it’s rare to be in that situation where you didn’t use enough, but now that thing you were keeping track, adding engagement to the job, is gone.

---

There are pretty much no scenarios in the raid tier where you straight up can't hit the boss for longer than a GCD, save Act 4 if you get the purple tether or during Hippo's (not) limit cut if you get screwed over and have to run across the arena (which you absolutely cannot use the backstep in) And in those scenarios you just use Enpi, which has an additional effect for generating a lot of Kenki

Your last point is a good one and something I do for Curtain Call but I feel like you barely ever actually use the backstep for that purpose all that often since complete downtime mechanics haven't really existed in any real fight since E8S.. and if you're going to bring up causal content, you can just use enpi a few times to have more than enough Kenki for movement

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by localareanetwork

There are pretty much no scenarios in the raid tier where you straight up can't hit the boss for longer than a GCD, save Act 4 if you get the purple tether or during Hippo's (not) limit cut if you get screwed over and have to run across the arena (which you absolutely cannot use the backstep in) And in those scenarios you just use Enpi, which has an additional effect for generating a lot of Kenki

Your last point is a good one and something I do for Curtain Call but I feel like you barely ever actually use the backstep for that purpose all that often since complete downtime mechanics haven't really existed in any real fight since E8S.. and if you're going to bring up causal content, you can just use enpi a few times to have more than enough Kenki for movement

---

You said earlier that managing kenki was so simple that it can’t even be called management and now you are saying “just have full melee uptime bro lol”. Like what? Is having enough kenki not a matter of skill then still? I’m not saying that fights force you to have downtime but doing the mechs correctly rewards you with uptime… so it’s a matter of skill.

Also the range of content in this game far exceeds just the current raid tier, it could very well be a different story in the next one.

As for movement, not every disengage will last long enough to do multiple enpis or even be worth doing a single enpi over spending 10 kenki to dash back in. Also there might not even be an AOE, there’s plenty of times where the boss can warp somewhere and you burn 10 kenki to gap close. If you greeded shintens before that you very well could not have the kenki needed for your burst phase

I think the most tragic thing about the Kaiten removal is that it makes Higanbana a lot less interesting. Reapplying that was the only time I ever felt like resource management was even a meaningful mechanic. But now it's just another DoT that's there to give the job more to do. Which is fine! It's not out of place on Samurai like it was a lot of other jobs that got their DoTs axed, and its 60 second duration along with its sen cost basically makes your entire rotation revolve around it. But spending two resources on it actually made it even more unique and now it doesn't have that anymore.

Sad times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget

There are games out there dedicated to steep learning curves and classes with difficulties. Let me just fast spam some skills to kill for fun.

---

Not all jobs need to be the same level of complexity. There can be complex jobs and simple jobs. Players can swap jobs freely, like to WAR.

If players want to play a job without learning it, they can play with Trusts or friends. They could even watch a clear video and push buttons on their controller. It would achieve the same sense of accomplishment without diminishing the experience for other paying subscribers.

you see having a shred of complexity to our jobs can be kinda fun and that not what they are going for with this game. sucks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luin

Not all jobs need to be the same level of complexity. There can be complex jobs and simple jobs. Players can swap jobs freely, like to WAR.

If players want to play a job without learning it, they can watch a clear video and push buttons on their controller. It would achieve the same sense of accomplishment without diminishing the experience for others.

---

Some people like certain aesthetics and want to enjoy the jobs that match said aesthetics.

I'm not asking for 5 buttons, but many jobs have close to 3 full hotbars now. Its a bit much. Personally 16-20 buttons is enough for me.

Its kinda sad people forget jobs can be deep, fit an aesthetic and have a lot of buttons these are not mutually exclusive... but for some reason we have to keep lowering the bar for SE everytime more because they want it easier to "balance" jobs or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Its kinda sad people forget jobs can be deep, fit an aesthetic and have a lot of buttons these are not mutually exclusive... but for some reason we have to keep lowering the bar for SE everytime more because they want it easier to "balance" jobs or something.

---

Having a lot of buttons is not necessarily deep.

Shoha and Shoha 2 being different buttons is not deep.

I feel like people don't understand what deep and complex are, and just think "but all these buttons I have to use and think about makes it deep!"

Its a static rotation. Nothing is deep. Complexity only comes from having to manage the hotbar placement to make sense and be usable. And I'd wager a lot of people complaining about skills going away use plugins to align the fight, CDs, and collapse combos into 1 button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Having a lot of buttons is not necessarily deep.

Shoha and Shoha 2 being different buttons is not deep.

I feel like people don't understand what deep and complex are, and just think "but all these buttons I have to use and think about makes it deep!"

Its a static rotation. Nothing is deep.

---

I said deep and have a lot of buttons, not deep because it has a lot of buttons. You might not recognize where im coming from but that's fine.

I have no issues with Kaiten going personally, but if they want to lower button bloat, they can go a lot further than this for SAM. Make Ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri upon use. Make Senei the level 70 skill, make level 72 a trait that gives it a line AoE cleave with a 50% damage falloff(meaning Guren). Change Shoha to Shoha 2 at Level 82, once again a cleave skill with a 50% damage falloff for all other enemies hit. Right there that's 3 less buttons. Not to say there aren't issues with that idea, since I know there are times and places where you'd rather not line AoE or AoE in general, but there is more they can do to drop the button bloat on SAM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Some people like certain aesthetics and want to enjoy the jobs that match said aesthetics.

I'm not asking for 5 buttons, but many jobs have close to 3 full hotbars now. Its a bit much. Personally 16-20 buttons is enough for me.

---

And some people like certain playstyles and want to enjoy those playstyles. These playstyles will never return. Something like HW MCH is just gone. It will never exist again. An entire job concept thrown away.

There are jobs with similar aesthetics. Play those instead. Like DRK's aesthetic? Don't like DRK? Play RPR. Like BRD's aesthetic but don't like BRD? Play MCH. Like Ninja's aesthetic but not the playstyle? Samurai.

I cannot glamour my actions and traits menu.

"Hissatsu: Kaiten" is an integral part of the samurai job fantasy and a highlight of the entire rotation, it has one of the best animations in the entire game that the team should be proud of. Removing it would hurt the experience for me and others by a significant amount, especially when there are numerous other ways of reducing bloat as mentioned in this thread. I really hope the dev team reconsider their decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Having a lot of buttons is not necessarily deep.

Shoha and Shoha 2 being different buttons is not deep.

I feel like people don't understand what deep and complex are, and just think "but all these buttons I have to use and think about makes it deep!"

Its a static rotation. Nothing is deep. Complexity only comes from having to manage the hotbar placement to make sense and be usable. And I'd wager a lot of people complaining about skills going away use plugins to align the fight, CDs, and collapse combos into 1 button.

---

People may use such plugins, but none of them touched Kaiten, which begs the question why the dev team would prioritize that over any other thing to solve the button bloat.

https://youtu.be/PMoUecr4zoI

:sobs:

Kaiten is literally one of the most fun parts about SAM... winding up for big hits... Seems really stupid to take this away and I'm sure the job will feel considerably more bland.

Unimpressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

https://youtu.be/PMoUecr4zoI

:sobs:

---

This is so icky to watch. I’m honestly gonna not be able to play this job anymore

ah hell naw they removed the dopamine button known as hissatsu kaiten

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphicet

Turn off BFX for a while and you'll figure out it's just spamming 1 then spamming 2. There's no depth to it at all and it's somehow even more shallow than healer gameplay. It just has a metric assload of particle effects strapped to it to try and hide how shallow the gameplay is.

---

Literally every job in the game can be dumped down to that if you go that route. SAM is just pushing a few different buttons in a random order in order to unlock another button. Granted, SMN is on the simpler side, but effects are a very important part of job flavour and adding impact to skills. Titan should be toned down a notch, though.

As for Kaiten, I don't want to see it go. It's a fun button to press and probably even the biggest singular reason I like the job. There's just something about it that hits me just right.

Then there's this Reddit comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...en_to/i32kcd4/
Supposedly it's getting removed because of busyness and not button bloat, which are two different things. As someone who only casually dabbles with SAM, I can kinda see where they're coming from, but I still don't want the button to be removed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyuinn

People may use such plugins, but none of them touched Kaiten, which begs the question why the dev team would prioritize that over any other thing to solve the button bloat.

---

My guess is Kaiten being exclusively tied to Iaitjustu skills, which already require Sen to execute. Plus, these skills also have a cast time, and trigger the GCD. So I just named three reasons to get rid of it, and button bloat is not one of them.

I honestly think SAM players will get used to Kaiten being removed. It will take an adjustment, but some will even likely look back and tell themselves it was a tacked on skill. That is not my view, just a conclusion that I predict some will arrive at. Again though, my issue with SAM began long before the decision to remove Kaiten.

I'm actually annoyed they removed it, it look really cool and if their goal was to reduce action bloat, they could have just change it to make a selection of single target skill become aoe when you use kaiten.

Or at least add the animation to midare setsugeka.

Quote:

---

https://youtu.be/PMoUecr4zoI

:sobs:

---

Thats it, SAM is dead to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhin1

Thats it, SAM is dead to me.

---

I only have SAM leveled to 90 for several months and continue to do roulette with it, so you can already imagine how i felt when I saw the Live Letter PPT. The first thing that I typed to my friends, and I typed this 2 times in a row, was 'They f???ing removed Kaiten'

Upon rational thinking one might take a guess that devs are trying to make the job less busy so they might want to take on raiding. But I can't support someone who's changing core mechanics on the fly. Theydon't even make a poll asking " Hey, just wanna know if you're satisfied with SAM right now? " No such thing.

I thought FF14 was a game that has everything for every type of player. On April 1st 2022, I know that's not true anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagicalChase

You saw how they removed all complexity from summoner? That's the cannary in the coal mine. Every job is getting that treatment. Every job will become so simple that newborns could play it. People will defend it by saying "but the damage is now added to the skill alwasy" yeah and it feels worse to play. This is the future of ffxiv.

---

The canary was MCH&DRK rework.
They will keep adding automated tools, press and forget and such to lower the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling.

They did a good job for most of the reworks but "press and forget" should already be a red flag.

Except BLM, somehow it's the only job that kept most of its flavor from the beginning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

https://youtu.be/PMoUecr4zoI

:sobs:

---

It's just so... hollow.

I won't profess that Kaiten is some amazingly active skill that radically changes or enhances Samurai's gameplay. It doesn't. It does, however, add some small flavor that the devs seem intend on removing lest the baby players struggle. Which is the actual reason for this change. They won't come out and say it as citing button bloat doesn't specifically highlight bad players but it's fairly obvious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Some people like certain aesthetics and want to enjoy the jobs that match said aesthetics.

I'm not asking for 5 buttons, but many jobs have close to 3 full hotbars now. Its a bit much. Personally 16-20 buttons is enough for me.

---

Too bad.

It's irksome how players who enjoyed several jobs as they were are essentially being told, "we don't care about your preferences. Casual Timmy over here likes how pretty <insert job> and we have to make it easier for him!" Instead of having a variety of jobs within a role based on different preferences. We're gradually moving towards everything being braindead simple just cause some players cry Stormblood Bard, Heavensward Dark Knight or Machinist were too hard. Screw the people who all liked those jobs. Casual Timmy wants to be an Edgelord.

I'd also rather not see all the jobs be reduced to the barren wasteland that is the Prange hotbar. Granted, stuff like Shoha II is just pointless bloat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

Notice how before the perplexing announcement to remove Kaiten, not a single person out there was saying things like “wow kaiten should be removed it’s a useless skill” or “I don’t like doing kaiten they should just bake the damage in”. way

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkdra

3. Kaiten - I realize this is the only reason there is any friction at all in the samurai kit up until Tsubame, but what does it really add? It's just a matter of being able to remember, "Don't spend kenki unless you have >30 of it" which is not complicated. I feel like it is an unintuitive ability to newbies and it also just makes everything from levels 52 to 62 feel terrible because you don't generate enough kenki to kaiten for higenbana and midare in your opener. I think they need to find a more interesting way to add friction to the kenki gauge than this.

---

Kaiten has always been a mediocre ability and I was hopeful they would cut it (along with Senei and Merciful Eyes) in the lead up to the combat live letter for EW. And now in a post EW world, I would add Shoha 2 as well. Although I was also hopeful they would replace kaiten with something else to make kenki use a little more interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HayaW

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but complexity can make something feel rewarding; like solving a puzzle.

---

Won't be long until we're just like Guild Wars 2 and all I need to do is press the 1 button and the game will play itself....

Man, some of the posts in this thread are absurd. There's so much "I don't like it because it's too hard".

Managing your Kenki gauge and not blowing your load on Shinten isn't hard. Pressing Kaiten before doing a Midare or a Higanbana, is again, not hard. The class is not hard to play. All they had to do was have Guren and Shoha be upgraded via traits, and you've already removed two buttons off your hotbar. Frankly, aoe/single target split abilities that share CDs are the laziest and most uncreative form of job design, and they need to walk it back already. It's not fun, and it's literally pointless, because half the time you're only gonna use one of the two options anyways, because the other one is so hilariously bad. Looking at you Abyssal Drain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

You said earlier that managing kenki was so simple that it can’t even be called management and now you are saying “just have full melee uptime bro lol”. Like what? Is having enough kenki not a matter of skill then still? I’m not saying that fights force you to have downtime but doing the mechs correctly rewards you with uptime… so it’s a matter of skill.

Also the range of content in this game far exceeds just the current raid tier, it could very well be a different story in the next one.

As for movement, not every disengage will last long enough to do multiple enpis or even be worth doing a single enpi over spending 10 kenki to dash back in. Also there might not even be an AOE, there’s plenty of times where the boss can warp somewhere and you burn 10 kenki to gap close. If you greeded shintens before that you very well could not have the kenki needed for your burst phase

---

But you don't need to have full uptime to have kenki - there's a reason Enpi has an effect that gives you additonal kenki. It's why the potency is so low.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apopopo

Man, some of the posts in this thread are absurd. There's so much "I don't like it because it's too hard".

Managing your Kenki gauge and not blowing your load on Shinten isn't hard. Pressing Kaiten before doing a Midare or a Higanbana, is again, not hard. The class is not hard to play. All they had to do was have Guren and Shoha be upgraded via traits, and you've already removed two buttons off your hotbar. Frankly, aoe/single target split abilities that share CDs are the laziest and most uncreative form of job design, and they need to walk it back already. It's not fun, and it's literally pointless, because half the time you're only gonna use one of the two options anyways, because the other one is so hilariously bad. Looking at you Abyssal Drain.

---

This I agree with. They already destroyed Guren by giving it fall off damage so it's not a gain anymore on 2 targets. They should just delete Guren and give Samurai Senei at level 70

i agree that samurai has a LOT of buttons, but kaiten is not the one causing the problem. It's something of a core to the rotation, and *for me* one of the things that makes this class fun to play.
If they really want to reduce action bloat they could make shoha and shoha ll one single button AOE with fall off damage. The same could be applied to Hissatsu: Guren and Hissatsu: Senei.
Ikishoten could change to Ogi: Namikiri instead of ogi having it's own button

kaiten shall be missed it was tied to samurai for so long it might be hard to adjust to the change, i think its unwise however to exchange guaranteed crit skills for lower potency this will hurt samurai mains greatly an lock them out of groups for a preference of monk or reaper instead. going back to what the devs have said though this feels like a step backward as they said previously they would not nerf or weaken jobs... but this feels like exactly that this is weakening samurai for the cost of spending big moves which mind you have cooldowns an will be crits every time. not spammed like every other ability in its arsenal.
as many have said if they were concerned about button space they shoulda just merged shoha and shoha 2, deleted third eye(its essentially useless now and procs a weaponskill no one ever uses ever) and consolidate other skills to trait upgrades.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It's just so... hollow.

I won't profess that Kaiten is some amazingly active skill that radically changes or enhances Samurai's gameplay. It doesn't. It does, however, add some small flavor that the devs seem intend on removing lest the baby players struggle. Which is the actual reason for this change. They won't come out and say it as citing button bloat doesn't specifically highlight bad players but it's fairly obvious.



Too bad.

It's irksome how players who enjoyed several jobs as they were are essentially being told, "we don't care about your preferences. Casual Timmy over here likes how pretty <insert job> and we have to make it easier for him!" Instead of having a variety of jobs within a role based on different preferences. We're gradually moving towards everything being braindead simple just cause some players cry Stormblood Bard, Heavensward Dark Knight or Machinist were too hard. Screw the people who all liked those jobs. Casual Timmy wants to be an Edgelord.

I'd also rather not see all the jobs be reduced to the barren wasteland that is the Prange hotbar. Granted, stuff like Shoha II is just pointless bloat.

---

I'm not casual, nor am I bad. I just hated what they did to SAM in the last expansion.

And people acting like kaiten is somehow the lynchpin to what SAM is.

The forums are full of people overreacting (as usual).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I'm not casual, nor am I bad. I just hated what they did to SAM in the last expansion.

And people acting like kaiten is somehow the lynchpin to what SAM is.

The forums are full of people overreacting (as usual).

---

I didn't care much for Kaiten since Stormblood because back then you seldom used it and it really felt like a "I'm going to buff my BIG attack!" moment when you did use it. Now you spam it.