Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

I see people say that sometimes, where utility is everything that is not dam related but here is the thing do we know for sure the dev balance around that definition of utility? Shoot I personally don't think they use rdps since that is technically a form of measurement that site that should not be named used. I might be wrong but didn't rdps start there in the first place? Just because you believe utility is not related to dam buffs doesn't mean the devs do, if so why is nin always near the bottom of the melee? What utility other than TA does it bring to a party that makes it have the lowest rdps among the melee. The point is if the utility doesn't include buffs like TA, AC, SL, Embolden, and ect then why is nin being taxed so hard compared to other melees who have more healing/mitigation utility like mnk and rpr?

Also on the smn healing utility show me an example everlasting flight or rekindle come useful in current fights that don't just lead to overhealing because they land during times the healing isn't necessarily? SMN so call utility is too depends on its rotation. You as the smn have no say in when or where to use it. Do you know what I can do as a rdm right now? Ask my healers when they want magick barrier, I can't do that for either everlasting flight or rekindle. So I wouldn't call smn's utility good XD

---

You're nit-picking the use of the word utility. My point is having a raid buff shouldn't result in a tax on your total damage output because it is part of your damage output - it will definitely lower personal dps though. I don't play Ninja nor do I know why SE balances the way they do. Going by fflogs it looks like Ninja was top in ShB and even in EW it's not far from the top at all, what's the problem? All the melee look very close right now, Ninja isn't being taxed hard.

As for SMN's healing: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/f3PbV...aling&source=7 is one example - 26% overhealing on Everlasting Flight, not bad at all for a hot. Just pick a boss select Summoner and sort by healing for more examples. I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

Magick Barrier doesn't actually heal, its reliant on healers to make use of its utility while SMN is not - Magick Barrier should actually buff SMN's healing.

Quote:

---

I think that smn heals are really situational: most of the time they're useless overheal, and single target heal it's not exactly free since you lose an attack.

---

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dinnertime

To be honest I didn't remember Raise being made an issue at all back then..

---

Summoners were, at the time, trying to justify having higher damage than Black Mage by claiming the Rez wasn't actually utility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rika007

I just don't view the ability to save a run IF things go wrong as that massive of an ability.

If the devs are balancing with that in mind then I'd rather they just axe the rez entirely from the caster role and only allow healers to be in charge of it. Heck they removed mana shift and refresh from the Casters and Ranged DPS to give healers some level of agency, just do it with this too.

---

I didn't see you answer the question, which dps job has better non-damage utility than a raise?

I'd be fine with the raise being completely gone, or alternatively just give it to all jobs. If it's not that useful then surely it wouldn't matter if I could raise as a RPR too... That would still leave SMN with other utility such as party heals and good ranged mobility, and no good justification for doing as much damage as jobs such as BLM, MCH, SAM, NIN and DRG who don't have that luxury.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tulzscha

You're nit-picking the use of the word utility. My point is having a raid buff shouldn't result in a tax on your total damage output because it is part of your damage output - it will definitely lower personal dps though. I don't play Ninja nor do I know why SE balances the way they do. Going by fflogs it looks like Ninja was top in ShB and even in EW it's not far from the top at all, what's the problem? All the melee look very close right now, Ninja isn't being taxed hard.

As for SMN's healing: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/f3PbV...aling&source=7 is one example - 26% overhealing on Everlasting Flight, not bad at all for a hot. Just pick a boss select Summoner and sort by healing for more examples. I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

Magick Barrier doesn't actually heal, its reliant on healers to make use of its utility while SMN is not - Magick Barrier should actually buff SMN's healing.



SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

---

I just say I disagree and I still think buffs are just as much utility as anything else. I also think the devs think this also but who really knows.

As for smn I still think 26% overhealing for a utility is too much. You're right magick barrier does rely on healers that is why you HAVE to talk to your healers and ask them where they want it. Plus it is also free so doesn't cost anything and you get to choose when to use it. So what it relies on healers, still boosts healers heal and that is their job after all to heal and also it reduces magic dam. Healing imo shouldn't be part of a dps job anyway. That is why I think they should delete the casters rezz also since I think that should only be a healers responsibility, not a dps'. At most I think the rez should have a long cooldown for casters. Also, ask any smn about everlasting flight or rekindle they all basically tell you the same, They want the choice to use it and not be part of their rotation. Utility that allows the user to decide when or where to use it is always much better than any utility that is locked behind part of their rotation and they have no say when to use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

As for smn I still think 26% overhealing for a utility is too much. You're right magick barrier does rely on healers that is why you HAVE to talk to your healers and ask them where they want it. Plus it is also free so doesn't cost anything and you get to choose when to use it. So what it relies on healers, still boosts healers heal and that is their job after all to heal and also it reduces magic dam. Healing imo shouldn't be part of a dps job anyway. That is why I think they should delete the casters rezz also since I think that should only be a healers responsibility, not a dps'. At most I think the rez should have a long cooldown for casters. Also, ask any smn about everlasting flight or rekindle they all basically tell you the same, They want the choice to use it and not be part of their rotation. Utility that allows the user to decide when or where to use it is always much better than any utility that is locked behind part of their rotation and they have no say when to use it.

---

26% overhealing for a 21s raid wide heal over time that you have no control over. That's actually really good, hots always overheal. Probably the healers in that group were working around it.

Non-damage utility for dps in general I think is good, healing and rezzing specifically should be limited but isn't bad. It's nice to have if the healers go down or are struggling, that's the main point since there's only a couple of them. Too much healing and you're stepping on their toes, yeah. So RDM has to sac dps to heal and SMN can't control when they heal; it's not perfect design but it's not useless either. SMN's heals may be uncontrollable but they last so long they're bound to do something lol unless healers ignore it and force it to overheal but that's on them.

I agree that SMN would be better with more agency over its actions, there's a lot wrong with SMN's design imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gruntler

Summoners were, at the time, trying to justify having higher damage than Black Mage by claiming the Rez wasn't actually utility.

---

Which was crazy talk for sure.

Pretty sure the reasonable people were saying that yes, BLM should be doing more than SMN because SMN was the utility job out of the two.

Why not just have summoning phoenix give a “rekindle ready buff”, similar to red mage “ver ready buff”. Summoning phoenix would give you the ability to use rekindle sometime in the next 2 minutes.

As far as I can tell, rekindle originates from the summoner anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sequora

Why not just have summoning phoenix give a “rekindle ready buff”, similar to red mage “ver ready buff”. Summoning phoenix would give you the ability to use rekindle sometime in the next 2 minutes.

As far as I can tell, rekindle originates from the summoner anyways.

---

That's smart to think of. It probably qwould require a few line of codings to implement but that'd work.

About the raise argument, it's utility that reduces your DPS. It's good to have in progression yeah but on clear runs and optimized runs, I'd never use raise on SMN or RDM. SMN pretty much can't use swift on raise anyways because its a significant damage loss so at this point, BLM is just better in any scenario vbecause 8 second raise cast is a major loss in damage. Yeah, you'll get to progress a bit further but you lose too much.

Raise should honestly but a big instant cast CD (3 minutes). If not given to BLM as a role action then they should be about 3% ahead. Not 7%.

Oh, I just looked at the top 50 breakdown

https://i.imgur.com/HBYumBA.png

Machinist still none existent. RDM has about triple more exposure than SMN and BLM has more than both SMN and BLM combined. Granted it isn't as bad as the 4% + 6% on PLD + WAR and the 0% on MCH.

The problem is that even if those are optimized and top meta players picks. SMN still sucks in progression. Went ahead to help some random p2s group, group went it, I went on my RDM; never pugged the fight and never did it on RDM. I can tell that RDM is straight up better than SMN. Because I can log purple with a 580 weapon with multiple mistakes. Embolden > Searing Light. If you ever wondering and say no I'm wrong;

https://i.imgur.com/py5cAdS.png

https://i.imgur.com/kBTvzRf.png

Both from my clears. Mind you, all my experience is on SMN so I should be doing better on SMN. 458 > 269 in term of DPS taxes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tulzscha

I haven't been raiding with SMN so I can't speak on boss dmg timings with Phoenix but it's definitely not as useless as people make it out to be.

---

sorry, but I disagree. If I had the ability to decide when to cast the heal it would be useful, but if I am forced even when it is not useful, it means that it is just one more stuff that no one needs. The phoenix problem is this, being forced to use it even when it is not needed (and it is most of the time for the timing, because I certainly do not wait to cast phoenix, except in very rare cases, and I certainly do not wait to cure)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tulzscha

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

---

they contained the problem increasing mathematically phoenix damage, but the problem is precisely that all wet laundry, hypothetically there could be an attack instead of a heal that you hardly ever use.

it is right that smn doesn't have the dps of a pure dps, but he should decide when to cast his heals, otherwise they are situational and he is only penalized.
I repeat, this class has a serious problem with situational heals and with the lack of ogcd, not pure dps: if these problems are fixed, the dps and utility goes up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tulzscha

SMN's heals are absolutely free, you don't choose between an attack or a heal you do both and Phoenix's potencies were buffed so it's overall stronger than Bahamut despite having 1 less attack.

---

"free"

https://i.imgur.com/OC4jV96.png

The problem is when you have no control on it, it'd be nice on P1S if I could use it on warden's wrath during intemperence but Phoenix never comes at that time. Problem is where everybody has so much support that its not even needed.

Sorry but, what heal?

Phoenix heals is almost always cast as a part of our rotation and never used when needed, i will not delay summon phoenix for certain mechanic at the cost of dps loss.

What i see is that there are a lot of utilities that are stuck behind bad mechanics:

- Everlasting flight requires phoenix.
- Rekindle requires Phoenix.
- Radiant Aegis depends on Carbuncle.
- Searing Light depends on Carbuncle.

Why these skills should have these requeriments? i can easily replace physick for rekindle, adding a cd to it and problem is solved.
its the same for Everlasting flight, it can be a healing cd to be casted when needed and changes into a Bahamuth version which gives a barrier.
Same with Carbuncle, i would just get rid of it and cast the skills myself.

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bacillus

Sorry but, what heal?

Phoenix heals is almost always cast as a part of our rotation and never used when needed, i will not delay summon phoenix for certain mechanic at the cost of dps loss.

What i see is that there are a lot of utilities that are stuck behind bad mechanics:

- Everlasting flight requires phoenix.
- Rekindle requires Phoenix.
- Radiant Aegis depends on Carbuncle.
- Searing Light depends on Carbuncle.

Why these skills should have these requeriments? i can easily replace physick for rekindle, adding a cd to it and problem is solved.
its the same for Everlasting flight, it can be a healing cd to be casted when needed and changes into a Bahamuth version which gives a barrier.
Same with Carbuncle, i would just get rid of it and cast the skills myself.

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

---

I think I agree with you? Specific abilities relying on specific summons is cool, it's a mainstay of summoning even beyond Final Fantasy. The problem is how brutally inflexible the rotation is in regards to these abilities, and how DPS works in FFXIV. These factors combined make Phoenix heals, while strong, not even worthy of an after thought because there are only 15s in 2 mins where either can happen. It's a design failure in implementation, not in ideation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bacillus

Sorry but, what heal?

Phoenix heals is almost always cast as a part of our rotation and never used when needed, i will not delay summon phoenix for certain mechanic at the cost of dps loss.

What i see is that there are a lot of utilities that are stuck behind bad mechanics:

- Everlasting flight requires phoenix.
- Rekindle requires Phoenix.
- Radiant Aegis depends on Carbuncle.
- Searing Light depends on Carbuncle.

Why these skills should have these requeriments? i can easily replace physick for rekindle, adding a cd to it and problem is solved.
its the same for Everlasting flight, it can be a healing cd to be casted when needed and changes into a Bahamuth version which gives a barrier.
Same with Carbuncle, i would just get rid of it and cast the skills myself.

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

---

Slipstream requires Garuda, Crimson Cyclone requires Ifrit, damn I guess those abilities don't exist either, why are there even summons? All they do is restrict abilities. Oh yeah, the job's called Summoner. :rolleyes:

Imo they need to give SMN way more freedom for when to use summons. Separate all of them, have a different requirement for the little guys like Energy Drain instead of Bahamut, give the big summons - at least ones with utility like Phoenix - a more flexible cost (a cd with charges would work fine), sprinkle in some more options and bam the job's 50% better at least.

Having unique abilities attached to unique summons is what the job's all about but if there's no actual choice in what can be summoned when there isn't much point. Phoenix's heal is there and healers can work around it so it doesn't go to waste but it doesn't feel good or rewarding for the person playing the Summoner because there's no choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tulzscha

Slipstream requires Garuda, Crimson Cyclone requires Ifrit, damn I guess those abilities don't exist either, why are there even summons? All they do is restrict abilities. Oh yeah, the job's called Summoner. :rolleyes:

Imo they need to give SMN way more freedom for when to use summons. Separate all of them, have a different requirement for the little guys like Energy Drain instead of Bahamut, give the big summons - at least ones with utility like Phoenix - a more flexible cost (a cd with charges would work fine), sprinkle in some more options and bam the job's 50% better at least.

Having unique abilities attached to unique summons is what the job's all about but if there's no actual choice in what can be summoned when there isn't much point. Phoenix's heal is there and healers can work around it so it doesn't go to waste but it doesn't feel good or rewarding for the person playing the Summoner because there's no choice.

---

Love the fact you listed damage-dealing abilities XD Those are fine being locked behind summons since most of the other jobs have that also. Do you know what isn't locked behind a phase on other jobs? Utilities! Utilities should never be dependent on part of your rotations or be locked behind a phase in your job. They should be able to be freely used when the time calls for them. That is why no matter what you say, things like M. Barrier, A. Cest, and other utilities always be stronger and better choices because those jobs have the freedom to use them when the time calls for them. Just because you think everlasting flight and rekindle are good doesn't make them good, they are flawed utilities. Some people may like them because it requires no thinking on their part on using them since they are hard-baked into the rotation, personally, I rather think and talk to my healers on when they need the help instead of just letting the game use the abilities automatically with no input from me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Love the fact you listed damage-dealing abilities XD Those are fine being locked behind summons since most of the other jobs have that also. Do you know what isn't locked behind a phase on other jobs? Utilities! Utilities should never be dependent on part of your rotations or be locked behind a phase in your job. They should be able to be freely used when the time calls for them. That is why no matter what you say, things like M. Barrier, A. Cest, and other utilities always be stronger and better choices because those jobs have the freedom to use them when the time calls for them. Just because you think everlasting flight and rekindle are good doesn't make them good, they are flawed utilities. Some people may like them because it requires no thinking on their part on using them since they are hard-baked into the rotation, personally, I rather think and talk to my healers on when they need the help instead of just letting the game use the abilities automatically with no input from me.

---

Heh. They're what would normally be niche or situational abilities but due to SMN's design they simply get spammed along with everything else. I don't think that's a good thing nor do I think the uncontrollable nature of Everlasting Flight is good design but I also think it's silly for people to call it useless because it's uncontrollable.

Just have rekindle be a separate button and have phoenix give you “rekindle ready” easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tulzscha

Heh. They're what would normally be niche or situational abilities but due to SMN's design they simply get spammed along with everything else. I don't think that's a good thing nor do I think the uncontrollable nature of Everlasting Flight is good design but I also think it's silly for people to call it useless because it's uncontrollable.

---

I thank first to MrJPtheAssassin to have answered your post, as i said if im not clear enough because it seems that you ignored that part in mi post, i quote myself.

Quote:

---

These kind of skills must not depend on a rotation.

---

And what im refering to this is to utility skills, which again i mentioned: Everlasting flight, Radiant Aegis, Searing Light and Rekindle.

Did i mentioned Slipstream, Crimson Cyclone, etc...?

Now with your own words, you say the job is called Summoner, so by your standpoint, should we restrict Resurrection into phoenix phase because Phoenix flavor is about rebirth and healing?

And now, if the utility is uncontrolable then is no utility at all, there should be no debate about this, if im going to get damage because a boss mechanic, but carbuncle isnt there because i have bahamuth out, then whats the use of radiant aegis?

If im summoning Phoenix and everyone is healed at full, what is the use of everlasting flight? what is the use of rekindle?

So, what i want? I want to cast these four utility skills whenever i want, which also will be when needed, regardless of my damage rotation.

Quote:

---

And now, if the utility is uncontrolable then is no utility at all, there should be no debate about this, if im going to get damage because a boss mechanic, but carbuncle isnt there because i have bahamuth out, then whats the use of radiant aegis?

---

That's as ridiculous a statement as saying abilities like Crimson Cyclone don't exist because they're locked behind summons. Which is why I said it, to point out the ridiculousness of your statement. Radiant Aegis lasts 30s, Bahamut lasts 15s. Think about it. Hell I'll do it for you: You're about to use Bahamut, are you going to take damage in the next 15s? If yes use Aegis, if not then don't, if you don't know then pay attention because Bahamut should be coming out around the same time for each raid/trial encounter.

And if you need Searing Light while a demi is out you're playing the job wrong - is it overly punishing to forget? Yes but with how little the job has going on there's no excuse to keep forgetting, you can even use it early because it lasts so long. If you can't do that you can always make a macro.

Quote:

---

If im summoning Phoenix and everyone is healed at full, what is the use of everlasting flight? what is the use of rekindle?

---

It'll still heal if people take damage after summoning Phoenix, it's a 21s hot. Rekindle can stay on a person for up to 30s before being triggered, if you add Phoenix's 15s duration to figure out which tank has aggro or find someone who's damaged that's 45s to make use of the ability, every 2 mins. That's a long time.

Again as I keep saying I don't think these heals are good design, they absolutely could be a lot better but they're not useless. Not everything needs to exist in one extreme or another.

Quote:

---

Now with your own words, you say the job is called Summoner, so by your standpoint, should we restrict Resurrection into phoenix phase because Phoenix flavor is about rebirth and healing?

---

If it was reworked to do so, sure. Not as it exists now. The big difference between Resurrection and the Phoenix heals is duration. If Rez was a buff you put on someone while alive that brought them back when they die it could work though it's not as easy to see who's about to die vs who's about to take damage for Rekindle so if this were to be a thing I'd make it at minimum a minute long buff, probably longer. (And if this change meant SMN's dps goes up a bit due to having a far less reliable rez I'm sure some people would be happy, while others scream and flail like it's the Final Days.)

Quote:

---

I want to cast these four utility skills whenever i want, which also will be when needed, regardless of my damage rotation

---

Alright, that's a fair desire. And if that means SMN's dps gets taxed further? (Not that we know anything about how Squeenix deals with such matters, purely hypothetical.)

I just miss my dot synergy and having some priority and actually having use for ruin outside of one cast every minute

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

---

Not all jobs need to be difficult, but that's not the question of easy or not, there the job no longer has any depth and flexibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

---

Hot take: It never was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

---

Of course not. They're not asking for overly complex job.
They're just asking for a job with a bit of complexity, depth and flexibility that cannot be macro'd in a way you only need to press 1.

I mean, it's crazy when someone asks for a bit of complexity, a lot are picturing rocket science.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

Of course not. They're not asking for overly complex job.
They're just asking for a job with a bit of complexity, depth and flexibility that cannot be macro'd in a way you only need to press 1.

I mean, it's crazy when someone asks for a bit of complexity, a lot are picturing rocket science.

---

People are especially salty about this one because they took a job that had complexity and made it one of the simplest in the game. No one complains about, say, RDM simplicity because it's always been like that.

Edit: Furthermore, in SHB we had a nice range of options on Caster. RDM for simple, SMN for moderate complexity, BLM for high complexity. Now we don't have an option for middle of the road any more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolder50

People are especially salty about this one because they took a job that had complexity and made it one of the simplest in the game. No one complains about, say, RDM simplicity because it's always been like that.

---

Indeed they took a top dps fairly complex class (at least to me) and made it low dps class without any complexity. 800 hours spend with my smn and they completely removed it from game I think this warrants some salty. Especially as it was very poorly communicated by se.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

---

There's nothing that needs to "click", you press 1 button for 30 seconds and the second button for the other 30 seconds. You could give the job to someone with the level hidden and say it's a lvl 50 job, no one would realize.

People have the same syndrom as mch or healers, as soon as people talk about the idea of having a bit of ceiling or depth put into the job, casuals that only wants to press one button and have always refused to learn comes with their forks.

Old smn wasnt hard: Pop bahamut -> hardcast dot -> tridaster when they come down -> summon phoenix the gcd after -> tridisaster when dots go down after phoenix -> tri disaster after using transe -> deathflare + bahamut -> hard cast dot -> loop. The rest of the time? ruin 3 and egi assault.

Worst part Ivven: They take a job that people played for 8 years for a specific reason: they like pets, dots, complexity; and made a totally different job with a middle finger to all the old players and the year of feedbacks they provided for years, basically booting them out of the job, same as mch in shb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiscence

Old smn wasnt hard: Pop bahamut -> hardcast dot -> tridaster when they come down -> summon phoenix the gcd after -> tridisaster when dots go down after phoenix -> tri disaster after using transe -> deathflare + bahamut -> hard cast dot -> loop. The rest of the time? ruin 3 and egi assault.

Worst part Ivven: They take a job that people played for 8 years for a specific reason: they like pets, dots, complexity; and made a totally different job with a middle finger to all the old players and the year of feedbacks they provided for years, basically booting them out of the job, same as mch in shb.

---

When you describe it like that old SMN sounds far more boring than new SMN. The gameplay loop you've just described doesn't resemble anything similar to a Final Fantasy summoner, and was considered by most to be unworthy of its namesake. I like my chain-summoning and rite/catastrophe spells far more by comparison, and I love how the job no longer physically hurts to play.

Again, jobs change in MMOs. Old SMN was a relic of the past when every other job had already been streamlined-it was an active turn off when compared to how natural most other jobs feel to play, and now new SMN is a relatively smooth experience for most. The only advice that I could give when it comes to that situation is to try out multiple jobs-Summoner was co-opted by Warlock/poison mage aesthetics and gameplay for 8 years too long.

The players who feel so strongly about this topic have been encouraged multiple time to organize their ideas for new caster job additions, seeing as how new Summoner is no longer beholden exclusively to them anymore. New Summoner will see additions and refinements over time but they will follow suit with the current design philosophy-there is no going back to past mechanics that have been universally rejected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivven

I like it. The new rework actually FINALLY (after nearly 10 years of trying) allowed the game to "click" with me. Not every job has to be massively complicated :)

---

As others said old smn wasn't really that hard. After you get basic down to old smn the flow was pretty easy to get hold of. The hard thing about old smn was learning its opener since the game really didn't do a good job pointing you in the right direction and you most like had to use outside sources to learn the job. After you did that and practice on a dummy some the job got easier and played just any other job in the game. At least that was my experience with SB and ShB smn. The problem most of us have with new smn is that they took all its complexly and flexibility out and made it on the rails experience where you only press one or two buttons and you can't really never able to adjust for downtime or adds in the savage fights.

I have been on the threads saying the same thing: I don't want to them go back to old smn, I like new smn but I want them to add more and finish the job. Since new smn does feel unfinished and feels it need more added to it. I want this to happen sooner than later also, I want them to continue to work on smn thought out 6.0 instead of leaving us with this unfinished version of the job for 2 years. I'm a die-hard smn lover and hurts me I had to switch to rdm this tier because it is just more fun to play in savage fights than smn. I still do roulette's as smn to get my fill but on raid nights I rather play rdm just because I know that job is more engaging to play.

Loving SMN myself, though I would prefer it if they swapped the order around. Allow the primal summons any time with individual cooldowns (so the same one can't be spammed consecutively) with those summons providing a charge to a gauge that summoning bahamut or phoenix would consume (similarly separated with individual cooldowns). That would also give them the design freedom to add more primal summons (leviathan, shiva, etc.) that function differently or have different effects to nudge SMNs a little more toward support, if the developers wanted to do so (it would be consistent with summoners throughout the series). Even if all they do is damage, some summons may provide more mobility capabilities than others and other limitations. They would also have the design space to add in more elder summons alongside bahamut and phoenix to function in a similar manner with varying abilities (shinryuu perhaps). Players would then have flexibility to determine which summons to use in which situations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tulzscha

That's as ridiculous a statement as saying abilities like Crimson Cyclone don't exist because they're locked behind summons. Which is why I said it, to point out the ridiculousness of your statement. Radiant Aegis lasts 30s, Bahamut lasts 15s. Think about it. Hell I'll do it for you: You're about to use Bahamut, are you going to take damage in the next 15s? If yes use Aegis, if not then don't, if you don't know then pay attention because Bahamut should be coming out around the same time for each raid/trial encounter.

Snip

Why are you mentioning again DPS skills? Crimson cyclone has nothing to do with the discussion, im talking about utility skills, there is no problem if crimson cyclone is behind a summon, that is part of the rotation.

Duration of the skills is irrelevant, when you see like, per example, the boss casting big aoe and you need the shield and you have bahamuth out (bahamuth lasts like 15 seconds), what you do? so well, so now we have to memorize every encounter and the exact moment when shield is going to be needed.

It'll still heal if people take damage after summoning Phoenix, it's a 21s hot. Rekindle can stay on a person for up to 30s before being triggered, if you add Phoenix's 15s duration to figure out which tank has aggro or find someone who's damaged that's 45s to make use of the ability, every 2 mins. That's a long time.

While also there are times where the whole heal gets wasted because there is no incoming damage for their duration, ok.

Again as I keep saying I don't think these heals are good design, they absolutely could be a lot better but they're not useless. Not everything needs to exist in one extreme or another.

It is not about extremes, it is about getting the best from a skill, if sometimes you can heal and sometimes dont, then there is not way you can trust in that skill

Snip

Alright, that's a fair desire. And if that means SMN's dps gets taxed further? (Not that we know anything about how Squeenix deals with such matters, purely hypothetical.)

why? SMN dps is already low, everyone thinks like they must give something for exchange for something that is supossed to be

---

I dont know if you know the class enough, or maybe there is an idealism to never improve the job or give it the qol that deserves, thats all i have to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

As others said old smn wasn't really that hard. After you get basic down to old smn the flow was pretty easy to get hold of. The hard thing about old smn was learning its opener since the game really didn't do a good job pointing you in the right direction and you most like had to use outside sources to learn the job. After you did that and practice on a dummy some the job got easier and played just any other job in the game. At least that was my experience with SB and ShB smn. The problem most of us have with new smn is that they took all its complexly and flexibility out and made it on the rails experience where you only press one or two buttons and you can't really never able to adjust for downtime or adds in the savage fights.

I have been on the threads saying the same thing: I don't want to them go back to old smn, I like new smn but I want them to add more and finish the job. Since new smn does feel unfinished and feels it need more added to it. I want this to happen sooner than later also, I want them to continue to work on smn thought out 6.0 instead of leaving us with this unfinished version of the job for 2 years. I'm a die-hard smn lover and hurts me I had to switch to rdm this tier because it is just more fun to play in savage fights than smn. I still do roulette's as smn to get my fill but on raid nights I rather play rdm just because I know that job is more engaging to play.

---

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Summoner feels very unfinished. I also wish we had more flexibility and more summons. We have so many primals yet we only get 3? I think they dedicated only a set amount of times to each job and when summoner’s time was up they just said “well okay that’s all we can do for now” I truly hope this isn’t all we get for the next 2 years because that will be completely disappointing. I like new summoner but I want more flexibility and more and more summons please. Don’t make us wait 2 years devs please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPete

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Summoner feels very unfinished. I also wish we had more flexibility and more summons. We have so many primals yet we only get 3? I think they dedicated only a set amount of times to each job and when summoner’s time was up they just said “well okay that’s all we can do for now” I truly hope this isn’t all we get for the next 2 years because that will be completely disappointing. I like new summoner but I want more flexibility and more and more summons please. Don’t make us wait 2 years devs please.

---

Yeah I feel the same. I also think they have the design backward with how you summon everything. Instead of the demis giving us the elements summons, we should be summoning the elements summons to get to the demis. The way I thought they could fix smn within a expac is to switch things around. Each primal is on a cooldown(kinda like brds songs) and you have to summon each to get a gem. When you all three gems you then can summon a demi. I think that is a simple fix to add some flexibility to the job as it now. Also so you can open up with a demi for your opener add a button that is on a 120s cooldown that just gives you three gems for free, like what jobs have now of days. That is just one idea I had that I hope the devs may see and think about doing. I know they are kinda limited in what they can do in the middle of a expac but I like to see small meaningful changes like this that make the job fun to play as we wait to 7.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Yeah I feel the same. I also think they have the design backward with how you summon everything. Instead of the demis giving us the elements summons, we should be summoning the elements summons to get to the demis. The way I thought they could fix smn within a expac is to switch things around. Each primal is on a cooldown(kinda like brds songs) and you have to summon each to get a gem. When you all three gems you then can summon a demi. I think that is a simple fix to add some flexibility to the job as it now. Also so you can open up with a demi for your opener add a button that is on a 120s cooldown that just gives you three gems for free, like what jobs have now of days. That is just one idea I had that I hope the devs may see and think about doing. I know they are kinda limited in what they can do in the middle of a expac but I like to see small meaningful changes like this that make the job fun to play as we wait to 7.0.

---

Personally I think completely differently. Keep Demi and the Avatars functionally independent, with Demis and Aetherflow being a clearly defined burst phase you choose when to use, while Carby and the Avatars are the filler. Instead of needing to get the avatars to access the elemental spells you should need to use a system of elemental spells (which I believe should be tied to Carbuncle, not the player) to unlock the avatars. This is what the older iterations all did well. They were priority/resource management focused and had multiple elemental actions tied to their associated pet allowed for that integration without sacrificing the core heartbeat of casting spells, which kept Arcanist well integrated with the Summoner lore. This is why I said Shadowbringers was the best version of the job. That endgoal was much easier to insert into that version than this one, and even gave the individual avatars (back when they were Egi, something I can agree wasn't aesthetically pleasing as I only ever used the Carbies afterward) individually assigned roles. DoTs or no DoTs that is the core I wanted to be fleshed out to begin with. This iteration completely misses the point, on top of making it functionally impossible to implement because of how the avatars work (meaning the current version has to go to make this idea possible).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Personally I think completely differently. Keep Demi and the Avatars functionally independent, with Demis and Aetherflow being a clearly defined burst phase you choose when to use, while Carby and the Avatars are the filler. Instead of needing to get the avatars to access the elemental spells you should need to use a system of elemental spells (which I believe should be tied to Carbuncle, not the player) to unlock the avatars. This is what the older iterations all did well. They were priority/resource management focused and had multiple elemental actions tied to their associated pet allowed for that integration without sacrificing the core heartbeat of casting spells, which kept Arcanist well integrated with the Summoner lore. This is why I said Shadowbringers was the best version of the job. That endgoal was much easier to insert into that version than this one, and even gave the individual avatars (back when they were Egi, something I can agree wasn't aesthetically pleasing as I only ever used the Carbies afterward) individually assigned roles. DoTs or no DoTs that is the core I wanted to be fleshed out to begin with. This iteration completely misses the point, on top of making it functionally impossible to implement because of how the avatars work (meaning the current version has to go to make this idea possible).

---

And personally, I really don't like your ideas and the way you want to take smn sorry. You and I have butt heads before about pet ai and stuff so I'm not going to get into it with you again. Honestly, I don't know why you reply to my post since you already know my feelings about some of your ideas. I don't think we should go back to the old ways of smn and use pet ai at all. So let's just agree to disagree and move on. I like the new smn system and I think the devs can make improvements on it since I believe they also like the new system they made. So let's not take a step back just to make you happy...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Yeah I feel the same. I also think they have the design backward with how you summon everything. Instead of the demis giving us the elements summons, we should be summoning the elements summons to get to the demis. The way I thought they could fix smn within a expac is to switch things around. Each primal is on a cooldown(kinda like brds songs) and you have to summon each to get a gem. When you all three gems you then can summon a demi. I think that is a simple fix to add some flexibility to the job as it now. Also so you can open up with a demi for your opener add a button that is on a 120s cooldown that just gives you three gems for free, like what jobs have now of days. That is just one idea I had that I hope the devs may see and think about doing. I know they are kinda limited in what they can do in the middle of a expac but I like to see small meaningful changes like this that make the job fun to play as we wait to 7.0.

---

I think that's a nice idea honestly, you could even make it connected to aetherflow, making it a relevant part of the kit again. Bring back the actual aetherflow action, make it 3 again, and spend 1 each on summoning. That, or they could bring back dreadwyrm aether required for summoning bahamut which could be accumulated by using fester or painflare during elemental summon trances. Then, you could get ruin 4 stacks by using the elemental rites. I would ideally also throw in more cast times for gcds and make ruin 4 the weaving option for bahamut phase again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anhaato

I think that's a nice idea honestly, you could even make it connected to aetherflow, making it a relevant part of the kit again. Bring back the actual aetherflow action, make it 3 again, and spend 1 each on summoning. That, or they could bring back dreadwyrm aether required for summoning bahamut which could be accumulated by using fester or painflare during elemental summon trances. Then, you could get ruin 4 stacks by using the elemental rites. I would ideally also throw in more cast times for gcds and make ruin 4 the weaving option for bahamut phase again.

---

Oh yeah, that be nice also. I would love to have my aetherflow button back from SB and have three aetherstacks again tbh. All you suggest are really good ideas for smn. My idea is mostly a quick or temp fix to the current smn as we wait for 7.0 since I know there is so much the devs can do in the middle of expac. Honestly, I really don't know how much they could change a job in the middle of expac, I know we saw a mini rework to mnk during ShB that set it up for its compete rework in EW. I'm hoping the EW smn is kinda like that. Part one of a rework that they will finish sometime in EW down the line.

I finally set up hot bars and and gave the rework a shot, it looks great but it’s sucks. After enjoying it a lot in shb (I didn’t ever play it current, just in echo savage farms) I was pretty worried over this rework and I was right, it’s on the “do not open till 7.0” shelf along with monk. It’s not even a casting job anymore, you just run around pressing the glowing buttons and there’s no fail states to separate good players from bad.

I'd like to share this video I happened across on youtube. Feel like it perfectly captures people's issues with new SMN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwMUfh8VrQ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolder50

I'd like to share this video I happened across on youtube. Feel like it perfectly captures people's issues with new SMN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwMUfh8VrQ

---

I'll watch when I have time.

But for me, underperforming is one thing. Underperforming and playing an unfun job in savage because its too simple and too rigid is mind blowing. SMN is fun casually because those caveats don't matter to people that don't raid. It's really bad in raids. The current SMN will most likely not work in 6.1 Ultimate because you're gonna have really bad time break sequences that will just hinder SMN more than fights like P2S and P4S.

When I play current Summoner the only time I feel great is when Aetherflow and Titan is up for quad weave shenanigans. Other then that you pretty much just press Ruin 3 the whole time. Boring as shit.

I'd much rather that instead of Energy Drain that each summon gave you aetherflow stacks to use. And make Ruin 4 oGCD. Breaks up the flow so much.

The job is just like MCH. Once the aesthetic wears off you begin to see all the problems and just think wow this class is shit. What were they thinking?

Edit: I just tried this one button macro shenanigans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjjUkRsV9GI

Some examples from the macro creator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r3T1X0OXIU (Dark Inside Extreme)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BId-R_GKsNc (P2N)

It actually performs well as a one button mashfest. Would I use it outside of funsies? No. Especially since I play differently from this macro rotation.

But it does illustrate a point that the rework is essentially a one button job. All you do is push Ruin 3 forever with fancy fireworks.