New SMN is an entirely new job. It's barebones as hell and that's by design. 6.0 appears more fluid than 5.x (as everyone who attended media tour to try the job have said) and anyone that regularly plays SMN now will know that. In current SMN our rotation IS rigid, the variations you have are "do I use EA to move or do I use R4 to move?" which really isn't a variation. You're still building R4 stacks, blowing DWT as soon as possible, demibahamut + 3x ruin3 and 4x ruin4 before you FBT and 121212121212 until you're back to DWT. Sure, you have dots but those barely matter since you only hard cast them once a cycle unless you screw up.
New SMN is still going to follow a similar pattern: Demi - Primals - Demi. The difference really is in the choice of which primal and in which order, or if it'd be better to skip a primal if the phase doesn't work.
Basically, enjoy the job as it will be or don't but don't pretend that either one is flawless.
New Summoner looks really nice, but...
Printable View
-
10-22-2021, 10:29 AMMercuryD
-
10-22-2021, 10:38 AMRolder50I find this point here to be a little ironic when new SMN has even less interactions between abilities. It can be largely boiled down to “Do Summon, mash 1 and 2 until empty, repeat” The summons don’t interact at all other then the fact you need to do them to get the Demi summons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora
-
10-22-2021, 10:40 AMMrJPtheAssassinHis logic is mostly sound since he mostly talks about buttons you press more than 5 times in a min. Most of the time you only press egi assaults 4 pre min, you only press r4 to avoid over capping but most of your r4 uses are in Bahamut, fester I believe is maybe 2 per min and the other two is saved in your demi summons/trances. You see gem shine and brilliance as the same as ruin 3 but they really not, at least I dont see them the same. Depending on the primal you have they are slightly different from each other and completely different from r3. But hey if you don't want to look at it that way or just cant that fine. You have the right to disagree with me or larry.Quote:
Originally Posted by zcrash970
This is mostly to every doomsayers on this thread and to the balance discord but you don't have to like new smn but the way I see it complaining about it anywhere isn't really going to make much of a difference other than just venting into the void. The devs have made their decision and 6.0 smn is the smn we getting, like it or not. As it was said devs didn't have much choice in the matter either bc the job was on a breaking point so this rework was coming no matter what. Give it a try before judging the job is you dont trust in those who played it before us, and if you end up hating it or find it boring there are so many other jobs to pick from in this game. I know I have two backup jobs just in case I don't like the new smn and I think everyone should do the same tbh. -
10-22-2021, 10:44 AMrewdAnd people are allowed to criticize this design choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by MercuryD
Where there is a succession of choices, there is also an optimal way to take them. Especially with a rigid encounter design. The variety is a facade, but it looks like it's effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by MercuryD
Please take time to read or re-read posts in this thread with some attention and you will notice that no one was/is against a rework.Quote:
Originally Posted by MercuryD
-
10-22-2021, 11:02 AMMercuryDYes, generally, you will want to do a certain order if mobility/encounter permits but since the 13th the Balance has been theorycrafting this left, right and center and the only consensus is that it will depend on the individual fight. You may have time to sit there for a few 3s casts under fire or you may need to immediately Swift cast slipstream for Garuda's mobility. Either way, I'm sure it's still going to be just as fun and engaging as it is now and I look forward to early access.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
-
10-22-2021, 11:08 AMRolder50This part right here is why I heavily disagree with his “5 casts per minute” threshold. It feels tailor picked to make old SMN look bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin
-
10-22-2021, 11:10 AMMercuryDIn the video he specifically said separate buttons. You press each assault button twice per minute. You can't get more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolder50
-
10-22-2021, 11:20 AMMrJPtheAssassinHe not trying to make old smn look bad. That's not the point of his video. His point was to get across that the new smn doesn't feel dead brain or that you pressing the same button over and over. If you and other see it like that then Im sorry for you bc you cant look past this view you have put on the new smn in. Let's just wait and see how it feels before we pass judgment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolder50
-
10-22-2021, 11:51 AMSequoraThere’s no facade. There will be encounters where it will be primal to do titan ifrit Garuda and you might have to change the order.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
Current summoner is a really simple priority system.
I cannot wait to not have to track dot timers. -
10-22-2021, 12:11 PMMrJPtheAssassinWhat I love is some of these ppl who criticize the new smn act like today smn is so deep and complex when it can be boiled down to a simple priority system, dotting with tri-d resets or hardcasting and know when you use certain things to avoid ghosting. Avoiding ghosting doesn't make the job complex it's the result of a broken pet system that will never be fixed. If you really want a complex caster job in hard content play BLM. It has more going on with it even than todays smn. I get it thought ppl scared since their job is being changed there a chance they may not like it. I have been an smn main since SB and I love the job with all my heart, I even was worried about the rework leading up to the last LL but afterwards I sigh in relief bc I thought what they show was amazing. The media tour has only made me want to play it even more after hearing larry take on it. Even ppl like mr happy who never played smn wants to play this smn. I think it will be just fine. I just don't understand judging or criticizing a job when they haven't even played it yet. :-/Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora
-
10-22-2021, 12:11 PMSequora
And for all the SMN dot lovers out there, I bet in 7.0 one of the new jobs will be a DoT focused caster. Hopefully in a more interesting way than poison spells.
Time mage could be a cool concept. -
10-22-2021, 12:20 PMChazNatloTheming aside, Hopefully it has less shallow mechanics than "Keep your dots up. that is hard because people can't keep track of time." Like, there is an argument that Summoner needed DOTs to make it complex (The word I use is tedious, but whatever) but I'd argue that a DOT mage needed summoning to make it interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora
Edit: I'm sure they could build a class around DOTs if they tried, throw in some DOT cancel abilities, Some Banes, some Festers, etc. So many DOTS that keeping them all up is a rotation in and of it's self, what have you. I merely mean that just it'd need a gimmick besides just placing as many DOTs on the enemy as you can and then Spamming the core damage spell. -
10-22-2021, 01:14 PMCithaerias_pyropinaCouldn't agree more. The order you use them will change drastically depending on how movement heavy the encounter is, which, so far, Endwalker appears to have an extreme amount of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora
You'll lose dps if you interrupt any of the 2 Ifrit ruby spells. You'll lose dps if the boss/dungeon trash moves out of Garuda's Slipstream or if you have to interrupt Slipstream's long cast time. You only have 1 swiftcast per minute and that's liking going to be for Garuda's 3s cast time and 3.5 second recast Slipstream or one of Ifrit's 2 ruby spells. And if Slipstream's recast time remains 3.5 seconds then swiftcasting it will have the benefit of giving you 3.5 seconds of movement (which gods forbid you'll likely want for in Endwalker).
I don't need to move for the next 4.5 GCDs, Ifrit. You won't be able to use Ifrit (or Slipstream) optimally during high bouts of movement. Or if swiftcast is on CD.
I need mobility and Bahamut and Phoenix are on CD, Titan and/or swiftcast Slipstream Garuda.
Raids buffs are up, Titan. If potencies and cast times remain unchanged. -
10-22-2021, 03:53 PMwaifugenerator
The "class fantasy" argument against DoTs is sooooo lame, SMN in Final Fantasy XIV is an Arcanist that happens to also have a SMN soul crystal. Just like how in IV Rydia is a black mage....who can also summon eidolons. Like most jobs, HW really nailed SMN mechanically and aesthetically
-
10-22-2021, 04:31 PMaveyond-dreamsTell us you don't know what a summoner is without telling us you don't know what a summoner is.Quote:
Originally Posted by waifugenerator
Rydia like Yuna and Garnet are characters who are primarily defined by their ability to wield summon magic. After a certain point in FFIV her summon magic will outclass all her black magic spells. As for Heavensward gameplay? The expansion where instead of giving summoners a new pet they decided to implement a "trance" that visually has barely any payoff and mechanically was "a 1 button spam?" No thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by waifugenerator
-
10-22-2021, 08:35 PMrewdThere is a whole section of my other comment where I talk about there being an optimal way to take choices, resulting in you doing the same thing over and over again (which was a point in Larry's video). Why did you choose to ignore it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora
-
10-22-2021, 09:00 PMwaifugeneratorIt's the job that spent 70 levels being an Arcanist with primal themed pets...? Are you a cutscene skipper or something what's not clicking??? That is your class fantasy.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
-
10-22-2021, 09:21 PMaveyond-dreamsThank you for briefly summarizing the core issues of the class-in most other FF titles by the time you hit level 70 as a Summoner you usually have an entire pantheon of gods at your disposal. Not 3 mini summons that are visually unimpressive and mechanically dysfunctional. The allure of the class in other FF games is calling down summons to destroy waves of enemies with powerful attacks, not ticking away at them with dots.Quote:
Originally Posted by waifugenerator
-
10-22-2021, 10:33 PMMrJPtheAssassinAhh the old HW SMN was the best SMN statement. Man if I had a dime every time I saw this comment lol. Sorry, but whenever I see someone say this all I can think of is a grandparent sitting in their rocking chair saying "Back in my day..." and LMAO. Listen we get it you love HW job design and thought it was the best for most of the jobs but undoubtedly the dev team thought they could do better and IMO have done better with the jobs especially in ShB. That is the reason they decided to stay with the job designs and build on top of them, outside smn but as it was stated a bunch of times they were left with no choice since smn was at a breaking point and couldn't continue to build upon on a flawed outdated system. HW job design isn't coming back so ppl like you who bring up this every time should grow to accept that fact and move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by waifugenerator
-
10-22-2021, 10:59 PMrewdYeah, ShB did a great job. I heard healers especially have high levels of satisfaction when it comes to job design.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin
-
10-23-2021, 12:02 AMDyvidThat's what SE gave you for endwalker, except times 3. Now instead of pets and DoTs, you trance dance with a flashy animation for each. Might as well delete carbuncle and Demi's.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
HW wasn't my favorite version mainly because I felt they should have just added Demi Bahamut rather than DWT. I just don't understand why they didn't build on 4.0 version that was generally praised instead they screwed it up with 5.0 so bad they felt they had to just burn it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by waifugenerator
-
10-23-2021, 12:04 AMRolder50True that. Personally switched off healers because they dumbed them down so much they weren’t fun any more. Now they are coming for my Summoner as well! Sad times.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
-
10-23-2021, 01:45 AMAelin_Ashryver
Personally really happy with where they taking summoner, much less bloated hotbar and it actually feels like a summoner now with the summon rotation. And good riddance to the dots they were not fun at all, the only enjoyment to them came in dungeons for spreading em around. Seeing as we get few dungeons now and my smn is capped, no joy there for me.
I never played any other ff game besides some ffxv before I started ffxiv, so I don't know the history of summoner.. I see a lot of fighting over it. But I will say, if something is going to be labelled a summoner it should focus around summons not dots, this is an mmo and not every player coming here has history w the franchise. It was a big jebait for me as a new player who loves pet based classes that I had a hideous egi and dots to manage. I stuck with it because I LOVE bahamut so so much. I did enjoy it a lot in Stormblood, less so in ShB but I still love the jobs style with the big summons and my lil carby at my side. Hyped to come away from healing and back to SMN and MNK. Sadly my DRK is still shelved till it gets some attn.
Forgot to mention the jank! Good lord the ghosting and outright just ignoring of commands, glad to see the back of it. -
10-23-2021, 02:21 AMCithaerias_pyropinaI politely, yet vehemently, disagree. Playing HW Summoner was like trying to untangle a slinky while also juggling 3 other slinkys. I took SMN into PotD and could not stand the Aethertrail mechanic, which is by far one of the worst mechanics this game has ever seen until WHM's pre-hotfix Stormblood lilies and pre-rework Plenary Indulgence. I had more fun with Bard the Bowmage and MCH's garbage HW Wildfire than I did with Aethertrail Attunement. Stormblood managed to make Summoner slightly palatable, I managed to stomach leveling it to 70, but Shadowbringers brought it full circle to HW levels of annoying to the point I dropped it as soon as I got it to level 71. Why suffer when RDM exists and doesn't play like absolute crap like pre-rework SMN does. I don't think there is any job in this game, currently, that plays as badly as ShB SMN does, other than SCH which ironically is another pet job.Quote:
Originally Posted by waifugenerator
How is Endwalker SMN dumbed down exactly? Lmao, less buttons to press? It's not like you'll be able to fire off Ruby Rite, Ruby Catastrophe or Slipstream randomly at will without using swiftcast or knowing where you can stand in the fight beforehand like BLM requires. You'll want to get out of the gem phase as quickly as you can as lingering in the gem phase for too long can cause Bahamut and Phoenix to come off cooldown and those two staying on cooldown is a huge potency loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolder50
If cast times and recast times are unchanged With 0 spellspeed, and not using swiftcast on anything, it takes you, at minimum, 30.1 seconds to get through the gem phase while Bahamut and Phoenix both last 20 seconds. Bahamut and Phoenix both start going on cooldown as soon as you summon them and you cannot go back to gem phase until they disappear. By the time Bahamut and Phoenix disappear and your gem phase is over you only have at max 10 seconds of leeway before Bahamut/Phoenix are back up. If you fumble your rotation too many times you run the risk of losing potency. The two Ruby spells, Crimson Cyclone/Strike and Slipstream are going to be SMN's biggest hurdles to perfect play and optimization. The skill ceiling will still be there, it'll just be more like BLM where you need to know where you can stand instead of doing finger gymnastics like pre-rework SMN. And then the fact you can only weave Searing Light before or after your gem phase. -
10-23-2021, 03:19 AMRolder50I’ve been watching people theory craft Summoner rotations. They typically boil down to…Quote:
Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina
Precast a ruin and weave searing light
Summon Bahamut
Mash Astral Impulse until he leaves, weave in your energy drain stuff and death flare
Summon a Primal (I’ll use Garuda)
Use slipstream
Mash Emerald Rite until you run out
Summon another (I’ll use titan)
Mash topaz rite and mountain buster until he’s out
And so on.
The ONLY choice you have in any of this is which primal, but no matter which you pick, be ready to button mash 1 and 2! Fun! -
10-23-2021, 04:44 AMCithaerias_pyropinaIt will be fun. I play RDM, DNC and MCH after all and they're all on par of 121212. Allison, who is my current main, and all 3 of my other alts, one of which is a freshly created character just to experience SMN from lvl 1, are all standing at the flood gates ready for it to be opened and get on Endwalker SMN for a multitude of reasons. I care not for convoluted substance or an exciting rotation and value style, weight and execution significantly more and these SMN changes are exactly that; style, weight and execution. I just got done going on a grimoire collecting and SMN glamour plate creation spree. And I could not be more ecstatic for these SMN changes with Topaz Rite, Topaz Catastrophe, Mountain Buster, Earthen Fury, all being good looking earth magic which is so woefully rare to see in games, and Tri-Disaster all of which are vfx I yearn for in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolder50
I do not think I would have given this game a second glance, until EW was on sale next year, if this SMN rework did not happen. I was also not expecting to resub before Nov 12th but here I am. For every ShB Summoner main that quits there will be players like me that are content, or even excited, with the changes and will take your place.
As you can tell, it does not take much to please me. -
10-23-2021, 07:20 AMlulunamiThe original 4.0 SMN was very unpopular on launch so it always had a stigma. The 4.0 salvaged version had a lot of Aetherflow and DWT timer management (you had to DWT/Bahamut before 15s left on Aetherflow timer) which culminated in a 2 minute long rotation to summon Demi-Bahamut. Dying before summoning Bahamut was a large DPS loss. 3.0 SMN was not the best designed job, but it was better than 4.0 or 5.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
SMN has always been a pretty easy job to play in terms of cool down usage. Burst damage was mostly gated behind a 1 minute Aetherflow timer. DoT management was pretty easy. The most difficult part of SMN has always been controlling the laggy pet. -
10-23-2021, 07:30 AMChazNatloI mean, assuming you want to get all three Gem summons out, in a static environment (Say a training dummy) it really wouldn't matter which order you do them in, so long as you get them all out before the next phase. Good or bad, in a vacuum they are interchangeable as far as ordering goes. Optimal ordering only comes in based on a fight, where you'd want to pick and choose which Summon you're using based on what the boss is doing (Or in a "Know the fight" scenario, what they're going to be doing next.) the idea is that this can change.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
Course, that would rely on an attack being so long or a phase being so short (without the boss having invincibility windows) that it'll matter, but I'm a filthy casual, so I'm probably off the mark here.
Just a nitpick, but I usually beat my FFs at around level 60, if I'm not grinding for perfection to fight the super bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
-
10-24-2021, 02:18 AMMellowMink
I'm a Summoner main and I really love the new changes! I like Larryzaur's videos on it too.