Let's all brace ourselves for no healer mention in any capacity for the upcoming LL

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

"The healer role isn't intended to be played through the MSQ. Go play a dps instead."

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Okay Yoshi P, give each healer that SMN/SCH split then.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Okay Yoshi P, give each healer that SMN/SCH split then.

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Geomancer for WHM
Time Mage for AST

Not sure on SGE.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Okay Yoshi P, give each healer that SMN/SCH split then.

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Sign me up. I will happily take AST as a dps than a healer right now. Give me Damage Over Time abilities with Time Dilation to extend them.

And seven hells! If you want to give back an interesting card system on top, by all means!

Edit: Or y'know some kind of time based debuff/buff system. I'm not picky.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

This is why I initially said the question had to be reworded. He gave the EXACT answer I was expecting him to give from that wording. Let's take this as a lesson and next time focus on the fact that the skill ceiling is too low and that in EVERY piece of content be it leveling or ultimate, we're still pressing 1-1-1 80% of the time.
We should really focus on gameplay changes for the role. NOT content.

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And I can predict exactly how he will answer that "low skill ceiling question"

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We want healing to be as accessible as possible while providing the least amount of stress

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Because he has said those exact words before, despite that stance not applying to a single other role.

If I could go back in time and post a healer question much earlier, this is how I would phrase it:

There continues to be a significant amount of healer player frustration regarding the lack of damage we need to heal and the lack of offensive abilities we can use when no healing is needed. Many of us veteran healers understand and sympathize with your team's desire to make healing more forgiving and accessible, but it shouldn't come at the expense of our enjoyment as well. We want to find a middle ground where healing can be forgiving, but also fun for players at high skill levels all the time-NOT just in savage and ultimate. If we cannot have higher healing requirements in casual content like dungeons and MSQ instances, can we please expand on each healer's offensive rotation to reach a similar level of depth that tanks have so that we have something fun to do when no healing is needed?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

If I could go back in time and post a healer question much earlier, this is how I would phrase it:

There continues to be a significant amount of healer player frustration regarding the lack of damage we need to heal and the lack of offensive abilities we can use when no healing is needed. Many of us veteran healers understand and sympathize with your team's desire to make healing more forgiving and accessible, but it shouldn't come at the expense of our enjoyment as well. We want to find a middle ground where healing can be forgiving, but also fun for players at high skill levels all the time-NOT just in savage and ultimate. If we cannot have higher healing requirements in casual content like dungeons and MSQ instances, can we please expand on each healer's offensive rotation to reach a similar level of depth that tanks have so that we have something fun to do when no healing is needed?

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And the answer to that will be either in as following order;

"No."
"Why?"
"What was this question asking? Can we move on please?"

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

oh at this point i'm not touching healer anymore, barring some serious fundamental changes (which as shown will likely never come). the frustrating thing is that my account (and SE's metrics) will keep showing SCH get higher from here since i actually enjoy SMN.

it's fucking shameful.

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I saw something awhile back that pointed out how if you take your job stone and put it on a retainer or your chocobo saddlebag, it stops updating your search info. Reckon it'd stop updating SE's metrics as well, if that's the case.

It's wild how half of the tank rotations have only gotten more intricate and involved every expansion (ShB-EW WAR and HW-StB-ShB DRK being the big exceptions) and we've gotten cool self sustain tools to at least make casual content more palatable, but healers have gotten nothing of the sort. Every cool new tool they get only serves to somehow make the jobs less involved, because all of them are only designed for the highest levels of play and nothing else. The only way forward without them making content too difficult for casual players (which is not a good thing lmao) is to give them better DPS rotations, something which they adamantly refuse to do. I don't even play this fucking role and I still get frustrated at watching it; it's literally the only role the dev team adamantly refuses to improve.

I honestly would have preferred it if they didn't say anything at all.

Square believes that the overwhelming majority of healer players are nosepicking Sylphies with healthbar-related anxiety disorders. Every question about skill ceilings is batted away because they think only 5% of the healer playerbase is making a mountain out of a molehill; that the healing role is for nosepicking Sylphies. That's what healers do. Pick their noses and squeal about not wanting to do anything else. What is this tiny minority of weirdoes doing talking about healing feeling bad to play? That's how healers play! That's why we all play DPS guys, because healers being stupid and terribly designed is how healers work. If we wanted to play stupid, badly designed jobs we'd play healers.

This is not a mindset one changes with carefully worded questions, or even cartoonishly strapping someone to a chair and making them play a healer for a week. It's because they have a circlejerk in the dev room where none of them are interested in the role in the slightest. They think healers are SUPPOSED to play like this.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Square believes that the overwhelming majority of healer players are nosepicking Sylphies with healthbar-related anxiety disorders.

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That's because they are, lmao

As much as the forums would lead you to believe otherwise, most healer (and tank, and dps) mains care more about the fantasy then the gameplay. They chronically overheal without putting much thought into it and sometimes do reasonably competent damage.

Even if you look at the forums, you get so many contradictory ideas on what healer mains want that it's impossible to actually listen to them.

To be perfectly honest, no other role in the game is less unified on what they want it to be.

It's frustrating that they don't make healers any better, but it makes sense that they don't listen to the forums when they clearly have no idea what they want.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

This is why I initially said the question had to be reworded. He gave the EXACT answer I was expecting him to give from that wording. Let's take this as a lesson and next time focus on the fact that the skill ceiling is too low and that in EVERY piece of content be it leveling or ultimate, we're still pressing 1-1-1 80% of the time.
We should really focus on gameplay changes for the role. NOT content.

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They give the exact same freaking answer since around 5 years, like even people that are not that smart would realize that maybe the question is a bit bad translated or very important for a lot of player in general. Like if I see the main healer player base go apeshit for over 4 years and then tell them “lol just go ultimates if you wanna heal some more”. As the director none the, less after telling “well ofc we play our own game what did you think ? “ When I see this response I have the scene from the naked guy in my head we’re the entire theater facepalms after they swap the gun and the bomb. And I could go on and on and on about how they took the healer role and ripped it into shreds and how they think they know so much better what too do you with the healer in general. The irony is that I’m a meele dps now so I don’t even have too care anymore, but I’m want because healer is as my main role for a long time and I still want people too be happy and have fun.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

That's because they are, lmao

As much as the forums would lead you to believe otherwise, most healer (and tank, and dps) mains care more about the fantasy then the gameplay. They chronically overheal without putting much thought into it and sometimes do reasonably competent damage.

Even if you look at the forums, you get so many contradictory ideas on what healer mains want that it's impossible to actually listen to them.

To be perfectly honest, no other role in the game is less unified on what they want it to be.

It's frustrating that they don't make healers any better, but it makes sense that they don't listen to the forums when they clearly have no idea what they want.

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And yet somehow they manage to design a few DPS jobs with both accessibility and a decent skill ceiling. But they don't do that for healers, because they don't care about designing healers well.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

That's because they are, lmao

As much as the forums would lead you to believe otherwise, most healer (and tank, and dps) mains care more about the fantasy then the gameplay. They chronically overheal without putting much thought into it and sometimes do reasonably competent damage.

Even if you look at the forums, you get so many contradictory ideas on what healer mains want that it's impossible to actually listen to them.

To be perfectly honest, no other role in the game is less unified on what they want it to be.

It's frustrating that they don't make healers any better, but it makes sense that they don't listen to the forums when they clearly have no idea what they want.

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And we have went over this time and time again. Adding more interesting gameplay / dps options literally affect the zero dps crowd in zero ways. They're still going to be heal bots who don't push damage buttons.

Meanwhile, the other healers who find enjoyment in other ways can.

There can and should be a middle ground because no other job is subjected to the playstyle that we are. If they were, they would riot.

Thinking about that dismissive answer again honestly has me more annoyed now… I wish that the director would put out a clarifying statement or something, because that was one of the rudest responses that I’ve seen to a really sincere and highly voted question.

Also, I want to reminder healers who don’t like attacking that damage is the name of the game in Final Fantasy XIV, that taking down enemies faster also means less player damage to heal, and most importantly that healer jobs are not intended to be an easy mode that magically gives you dramatically less responsibility toward the collective goal than other players. Yes, you’ll be damaging less often for parts of some instances by the nature of healing, but if you’re never doing the former at all and would rather just stand around, then I have to question why you’re expecting others in Duty Finder or Party Finder to not want to kick you out in the first place.

Enrage and DPS check mechanics also still exist, plus you have to frequently attack throughout the main story quests; how else have you been clearing almost any story content while playing as a healer job? Just auto-attacking everything and having each quest take a ludicrous amount of time to finish? You should attack a fair amount, especially during downtime; this isn’t World of Warcraft.

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Originally Posted by Darnath

Wish I was in the runs you folks were complaining about being bored in.

Dungeons, constantly healing outside boss fights. Tanks not using mitigation. DPS get hitting by random trash due to unwilling to move (BLM), unable to move (DRG animation lock), or the worse offender WANTING to get hit (SAM for Kenki).

Alliance Raids outside CT or Void Ark? Always some folks either first timers or "lagging" (usually in Nier raids) and having to keep them up along with the tank, but still at least have a bit of time to DPS.

Trials? Hit and miss. Later trials, especially Titania and Hydaelyn? Healing my ass off with people taking splash damage.

Normal Raids? Usually OK, except P3. I ask for a 10 second wait to get a drink because I know even as AST I'm going to go ballastic healing people from all the 'avoidable' damage they just ignore and tanks going down harder than DRK's in high end dungeons once they're OOM and no more TBN's.

I guess I just got crap luck compared to the rest of the forum

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Nah forum is just biased I have same experiences buddy. It's why I love healing is less complex.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

That's because they are, lmao

As much as the forums would lead you to believe otherwise, most healer (and tank, and dps) mains care more about the fantasy then the gameplay. They chronically overheal without putting much thought into it and sometimes do reasonably competent damage.

Even if you look at the forums, you get so many contradictory ideas on what healer mains want that it's impossible to actually listen to them.

To be perfectly honest, no other role in the game is less unified on what they want it to be.

It's frustrating that they don't make healers any better, but it makes sense that they don't listen to the forums when they clearly have no idea what they want.

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Okay, so what if I only cared about the fantasy of tanks?
I don't want any of those combos, too complicated. No dps buffs either, too complicated and I'm only here for the tank fantasy. Tanks should tank!
So what I want now is that we only have lots of the mitigation tools we have now and one spammable melee attack and..hmm.. how about it has a combo step 2 but with a 25s cooldown?
But I'm a tank so I don't really want to use that, instead I also want a spammable block that blocks 5% incoming damage on the GCD.
Because I only care about the fantasy, I want to be a tanky tank that tanks. And I want the entire role to be designed that it enforces this playstyle on everyone. No, people who want to be more engaged on tank don't get their 123 combo and damageing oGCDs and burst windows back. They can't have their fun while I have my fun, I want everyone to have my fun.

This is what "don't give healers more deeps buttons because that Sylphie over there might get offeneded" boils down to.
Tanks would grab their torches, pitchforks and riot and rightfully so and as someone who has listed WAR as their main, I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate getting treated that way.
You can satisfy both crowds at the same time but they don't want to. Sylphies get their fun 99% of the time, the rest just has to do Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And we have went over this time and time again. Adding more interesting gameplay / dps options literally affect the zero dps crowd in zero ways. They're still going to be heal bots who don't push damage buttons.

Meanwhile, the other healers who find enjoyment in other ways can.

There can and should be a middle ground because no other job is subjected to the playstyle that we are. If they were, they would riot.

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*stares at SMN* point proven

Can we all please just push that one thread w sarixis videos highlighting clear concrete and economical changes the team could make today? I could live w those changes happily even if they aren’t all perfect l. I need better not perfect.

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Originally Posted by glamazon

Can we all please just push that one thread w sarixis videos highlighting clear concrete and economical changes the team could make today? I could live w those changes happily even if they aren’t all perfect l. I need better not perfect.

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We tried pushing a similar thread before that one and it's feedback was ignored.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

That's because they are, lmao

As much as the forums would lead you to believe otherwise, most healer (and tank, and dps) mains care more about the fantasy then the gameplay. They chronically overheal without putting much thought into it and sometimes do reasonably competent damage.

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That's because they made it that way.

Instead of making healing for the players who genuinely enjoy healer gameplay and want to invest in it, master it and have fun, they made healers for the players that don't actually like healer, to try and lure them in with an effort free class and bolster participation.

Naturally the result is that many of the competent veteran healers left and all that remains are Sylphies and players who want an easy ticket through EX and Savage.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Okay, so what if I only cared about the fantasy of tanks?
I don't want any of those combos, too complicated. No dps buffs either, too complicated and I'm only here for the tank fantasy. Tanks should tank!
So what I want now is that we only have lots of the mitigation tools we have now and one spammable melee attack and..hmm.. how about it has a combo step 2 but with a 25s cooldown?
But I'm a tank so I don't really want to use that, instead I also want a spammable block that blocks 5% incoming damage on the GCD.
Because I only care about the fantasy, I want to be a tanky tank that tanks. And I want the entire role to be designed that it enforces this playstyle on everyone. No, people who want to be more engaged on tank don't get their 123 combo and damageing oGCDs and burst windows back. They can't have their fun while I have my fun, I want everyone to have my fun.

This is what "don't give healers more deeps buttons because that Sylphie over there might get offeneded" boils down to.
Tanks would grab their torches, pitchforks and riot and rightfully so and as someone who has listed WAR as their main, I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate getting treated that way.
You can satisfy both crowds at the same time but they don't want to. Sylphies get their fun 99% of the time, the rest just has to do Ultimate.

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If tanks were to become something like that, it could be interesting.

Lower tanks defense to where enemies would actually deal damage. Add a bunch of -dmt actions. Creating an aggro survival feast. Only objective is to stay alive.

Still thinking about the casual player. I would imagine playing that said tank would be difficult.
Reason why healer is the way it is now. The majority can not optimize.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

That's because they made it that way.

Instead of making healing for the players who genuinely enjoy healer gameplay and want to invest in it, master it and have fun, they made healers for the players that don't actually like healer, to try and lure them in with an effort free class and bolster participation.

Naturally the result is that many of the competent veteran healers left and all that remains are Sylphies and players who want an easy ticket through EX and Savage.

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I think one of, if not the main reasons tanks don't get the same.... side effect, is because tanks are the de facto leaders - being the ones front and center in fights, and directly responsible for who and where the boss is facing, rather than staying in the back doing essentially nothing when nobody's looking, or spamming unnecessary healing to seem like they're doing something.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

We tried pushing a similar thread before that one and it's feedback was ignored.

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Didn't I say they were going to ignore it?

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Didn't I say they were going to ignore it?

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I mean they ignore the healer player base since over 5 years now. And we all saw what they tell you if they talk finally about them aka “lol go play ultimates if you find healing too easy”. Like we had a talk about sandwiches and 2b butt stuff in shadowbringer before we had a talk about healer.

second part LL for the patch tomorrow, let's see how we're told to fuck off this time :/

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

second part LL for the patch tomorrow, let's see how we're told to fuck off this time :/

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"If you want more DPS, play SGE"
"If you want challenge, play Ultimates"

I guess the next one will be
"If you want more a more support focused experience, play DNC".

Might as well just tell us to quit healing at this point

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

second part LL for the patch tomorrow, let's see how we're told to fuck off this time :/

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They already did talk about healer once in this expansion so we gonna talk about themes that are actually way more important then healers like maybe sandwiches again……. Or maybe this time we get the most critical information that the player need and that is how they made Grahas burger look so good ( if that happens I would be set for the rest of my life)

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

second part LL for the patch tomorrow, let's see how we're told to fuck off this time :/

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"We evaluated WHM concerns and decided not to do anything about them"

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

"We evaluated WHM concerns and decided not to do anything about them"

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"We've noticed a lack of healers in low level content, so rather than make the design and leveling progression of healers fun at lower levels, we've decided to replace the playerbase with NPCs."

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

"We've noticed a lack of healers in low level content, so rather than make the design and leveling progression of healers fun at lower levels, we've decided to replace the playerbase with NPCs."

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May as well just remove healers at this point.


....Oh wait

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

May as well just remove healers at this point.


....Oh wait

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Lack of incentive to play healers at the start of the game means less healers at endgame and with how frustrated veteran healers are with our lackluster toolkits, we have no incentive to do endgame content either. It's a lose lose situation at the end of the day.
I can just spam Dead Ends with Trusts for my tombstones. The 1st 2 extremes and savage raids can be cleared without healers so there's some level of endgame available without bothering with healers. If healers are only needed for 2 fights in the entire game, there's a problem

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Lack of incentive to play healers at the start of the game means less healers at endgame and with how frustrated veteran healers are with our lackluster toolkits, we have no incentive to do endgame content either. It's a lose lose situation at the end of the day.
I can just spam Dead Ends with Trusts for my tombstones. The 1st 2 extremes and savage raids can be cleared without healers so there's some level of endgame available without bothering with healers. If healers are only needed for 2 fights in the entire game, there's a problem

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I don't raid savage/ex so I'm bound to play devil's advocate just out of curiosity: is running with 1/no healer the new norm because healing is that trivial, or is a healer-less comp something that *can* be done with great group coordination, but most still stick to the status quo (2 healers)? I mean, I still think that spamming a single dps skill ad nauseum and catering to the lowest common denominator are ...questionable decisions, but I guess unless healers become objectively redundant even in the most casual of content, the devs will keep insisting they're "ok"

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I don't raid savage/ex so I'm bound to play devil's advocate just out of curiosity: is running with 1/no healer the new norm because healing is that trivial, or is a healer-less comp something that *can* be done with great group coordination, but most still stick to the status quo (2 healers)? I mean, I still think that spamming a single dps skill ad nauseum and catering to the lowest common denominator are ...questionable decisions, but I guess unless healers become objectively redundant even in the most casual of content, the devs will keep insisting they're "ok"

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It is something that can be done. Several times where I've died to mechanics in a dungeon in EW while I was still learning the fight w/o a RDM or SMN the tank and dps have gone on with out me at ~70% hp with 0 issues. Granted, none of the tanks were DRK... but DRK also has the lowest sustain of the tanks.

Edit: just saw the raid part.

Yeah its very likely. A good healer can solo most normal raids and trials. A good healer can do the same with EX. Savage... dunno if its common yet for the current Savage to be puggable by 1 healer.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I don't raid savage/ex so I'm bound to play devil's advocate just out of curiosity: is running with 1/no healer the new norm because healing is that trivial, or is a healer-less comp something that *can* be done with great group coordination, but most still stick to the status quo (2 healers)? I mean, I still think that spamming a single dps skill ad nauseum and catering to the lowest common denominator are ...questionable decisions, but I guess unless healers become objectively redundant even in the most casual of content, the devs will keep insisting they're "ok"

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It's not common practice, just something that can be done. However, since it can be done without them, if Healers become so scarce that people become frustrated enough to just try it the alternative way (with all tank groups or a healthy amount of SMN/RDM/DNC) then it could become more common practice. Solo healing is also possible if there isn't a mechanic that targets 2 healers specifically and the party is skilled enough.

It's just a hypothetical situation that could end up happening, and considering that WAR+3 DPS parties are popping it more often for dungeons at least, it's already starting.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I don't raid savage/ex so I'm bound to play devil's advocate just out of curiosity: is running with 1/no healer the new norm because healing is that trivial, or is a healer-less comp something that *can* be done with great group coordination, but most still stick to the status quo (2 healers)? I mean, I still think that spamming a single dps skill ad nauseum and catering to the lowest common denominator are ...questionable decisions, but I guess unless healers become objectively redundant even in the most casual of content, the devs will keep insisting they're "ok"

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There is a single reason why one-healer groups aren't more common in Savage - FFlogs only accepts parses for 2 tank/2 healers/4 DPS groups under "standard composition". If this were to change, we would see a lot more one-healer groups at all levels. And especially at the highest level of play like speeds.

It was already noticeable with older EXs like Titania and Innocence at the end of ShB. Since parsing those fights was a meme at that point they were very often done with just one healer.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I don't raid savage/ex so I'm bound to play devil's advocate just out of curiosity: is running with 1/no healer the new norm because healing is that trivial, or is a healer-less comp something that *can* be done with great group coordination, but most still stick to the status quo (2 healers)? I mean, I still think that spamming a single dps skill ad nauseum and catering to the lowest common denominator are ...questionable decisions, but I guess unless healers become objectively redundant even in the most casual of content, the devs will keep insisting they're "ok"

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Technically, yes. Every single fight, up to and including Ultimate, can and has been solo healed. Some are just incredibly annoying to do because of mechanics specifically targeting healers. This tier they were surprisingly lenient with that though as Fire Pinax is the only mechanic you'd have to get creative about. You can leave a three stack, so split the raid according (Range/Healer, Melee and Tanks) and you're golden.

Beyond Healer specific mechanics, the other major reason is what Azuri said above: FFlogs. Gear is another factor since it takes so long to gear multiple jobs.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I don't raid savage/ex so I'm bound to play devil's advocate just out of curiosity: is running with 1/no healer the new norm because healing is that trivial, or is a healer-less comp something that *can* be done with great group coordination, but most still stick to the status quo (2 healers)? I mean, I still think that spamming a single dps skill ad nauseum and catering to the lowest common denominator are ...questionable decisions, but I guess unless healers become objectively redundant even in the most casual of content, the devs will keep insisting they're "ok"

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Depends on mechanics of the fight first, if there are mechanics that target 2 healers (like 3-4 people stacks) is unlikely as it would potentially make the fight harder or even a rng fest, if there is no mechanics like that depends on the difficulty:

-Normal mode (max level dungeons): Super common, a lot of people cap the tomes by farming the latest dungeons with no healer, just 1 tank and 3 dps as their sustain tends to be more than enough for such low damage and the dps gain is huge.

-Extremes: In current content exs is not uncommon but not the norm, for example the 1st extreme of this expansion has been farmed with 1 healer consistently since it was released but it requires healers that are consistent and dont die to mechanics for obvious reasons (or jobs that can rez said healer), for outgeared fights on the other hand is rather common to see 1 healer parties as the group can kill stuff significantly faster and be able to clear even if the healer dies.

-Savages: very very very unlikely to find one simply because this is the difficulty in which most people try to get better logs and 1 healer parties dont fall under standard comp, as the tier gets older most people may try it as a way to get loot faster if they have a good healer or just for fun, we are already seeing examples of the latter with the p1s-p2s solo tank clear and p1s-p2s 1 healer clear.

-Ultimate: Same case as Savages but with the 1 healer comps and solo tank comps being way more hard to find however we've already seen a solo tank clear of ucob and 1 healer clears of TEA

Healers tend to be a safety net more than a necessity so the better the team is the more likely they are to drop 1 healer in favour of more dps

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

"We've noticed a lack of healers in low level content, so rather than make the design and leveling progression of healers fun at lower levels, we've decided to replace the playerbase with NPCs."

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I am very excited to re-experience the entire story with "Eager Conjurer" by my side.