Eden Savage Coffers

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Your jealousy is showing again.
In this example, the problem is 100% YOU. For assuming the worst of people.
This is everything that’s wrong with society today. People would rather spend more to stop other people getting something, than less to give everyone a better chance. Vindictive jealousy.

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Sound like you got super jealous at people who get good drop from the previous loot system... or you get super good loot for the new system?

I never say the current one is bad, i only say it feel worst which is a fact because its my feeling (i didnt speak for you guys)

you need to admit that none of the loot system is one above the other, as long as theres RNG involve nothing is fair, instead of blindly praising and accuse people of jealousy

If you just want fairness just abort loot system and make everything token based, so there no way a week3 clearer get a better gear than week1 clearer... i seriously doubt people will be happy though...

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Originally Posted by EaMett

It was an odd choice. Honestly I can see this being a pain in pugs since you're now competing with 8 people who can roll on everything. In statics it's also awkward depending on your role. For example as a healer I know I will never get my gloves. I will need to save pages for those.

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Depending on the static. I joint a new static this raid tier, as a healer I was, too, worried about the new system since healers is always at the bottom of the loot priority. But this static has no such priority. The rule is simple, everyone can freely role on any coffer they haven't got, once you get a coffer for a slot, you pass on it until everyone got one. As a group we were confident we neither need the "tank need more amour to take less damage or DPS need gear to beat enrage" line of thinking. We are now working on titan and that has been the case.

this is ridiculous its obvious this new system is terrible. PERIOD, just like Greed Only was bad for 24 man, the difference is they did it again where the small amount people with common sense will cry out say this is really dumb change it back or just change it back with 2 coffers with the old system. we can all agree that killing the 4th fight where it drops coffer+Random Weapon where you can hit need on is a better system. that's why it was left alone. if they did that for 1-2-3 it would be better. ( first fight = 2 coffers 2 accs. you can N/G - 4 items. instead) but majority of ppl on here think savage is normal where u can go back to roll on stuff ITS NOT. its once a week. you get "1" and ONLY 1 chance to see A coffer. so yeah its pretty terrible. Most of small Raiding community knows its bad.

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Originally Posted by Nielk

this is ridiculous its obvious this new system is terrible.

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No, lots of people liked it, at least it's 50/50, but it seems to be more in favor over the old.

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but majority of ppl on here think savage is normal where u can go back to roll on stuff ITS NOT

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So far the "majority" you mentioned are 2 people who were misinformed and has since been corrected.

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so yeah its pretty terrible. Most of small Raiding community knows its bad.

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Citation needed.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

I'm a tank. Why would I want to loot for myself when it's more beneficial to have DPS get the loot first?


Again, raiding is a team effort.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This is a pretty big misconception that keeps getting put out there. I can't stress enough how wrong it is for the overwhelming majority of cases

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

As others have said, Savage is a team effort. Prioritizing the DPS means you can potentially skip things like Quietus or Titan's final Tumult spam. Both are [i]hugep/i] healer checks, thus making their job significantly easier while also being a straight parse advantage since you're clearing faster. Most groups also shift focus onto BiS unless they're still progging.

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As I said it deincentivizes doing savage for some. Not everyone will care. Other statics are more egalitarian so Tanks can see themselves getting BiS. A fair number of players are static focused so any reward the static can use is a good reward.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

As I said it deincentivizes doing savage for some. Not everyone will care. Other statics are more egalitarian so Tanks can see themselves getting BiS. A fair number of players are static focused so any reward the static can use is a good reward.

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You misunderstand my point.

I'll requote:

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It more that gearing up tanks and healers later down the line deincentivizes doing the content as a healer/tank as part of a static. Not having the chance of getting any coffers before week 5 puts a serious damper on the desire of some to do savage content.

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Stating that a healer or tank isn't getting any coffers before week 5 isn't true in any static I'm aware of, and I'd like to think I'm aware of some of the more hardcore teams out there ;)

There are those that will throw a week or two's worth at the DPS regardless of BiS, but for groups that are that motivated to gear up ASAP. They will likely be running half half splits with alts to double the coffers per week anyway.

This new coffer system will have statics geared up faster than ever before regardless of your role. Even if you pass up loot for the DPS in the first week or two, the rate you gear up after that more than makes up for it. Again, I'm actually inclined to think that the carrot is too easy to catch this time out.

old system:
1/7 chance for a piece relevant to your class to drop. Within that, if you're playing healer or tank, you have a further 1/2 chance of winning it, putting healers and tanks at an abysmal 1/14. In addition, since there are 5 dps types and only 4 dps slots per party, there is at least 1/7 chance for each piece of loot to be completely useless to the current party.

new system:
1/8 chance to win loot. 100% chance for the loot to be useful. Only dps players are *slightly* inconvenienced, and it's by a difference of 1.78%. Healers and tanks, meanwhile, find the system much more fair by far, and parties are getting 14% more relevant loot.

And that's only counting the first week. Subsequent weeks see even better returns for everyone, as no gear piece is wasted until very late when literally everyone has everything.

I think the current system is better by orders of magnitude. People just see low rolls and forget that getting their gear has always been gated by rng in the first place.

Rng on items is one thing, rng on you shitty rolls is another.
The new system is overall better, but a lock on need after the first coffer you drop will make everything better.
Even for statics, you equip 2 or 3 jobs a week instead of one. Doesn't really make a difference for them.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

Rng on items is one thing, rng on you shitty rolls is another.
The new system is overall better, but a lock on need after the first coffer you drop will make everything better.
Even for statics, you equip 2 or 3 jobs a week instead of one. Doesn't really make a difference for them.

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needing multiple coffers is the same as having a chance of getting your item multiple drops in the first place.

It's all been rolled into a single instance of RNG, and equalized among all classes.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

needing multiple coffers is the same as having a chance of getting your item multiple drops in the first place.

It's all been rolled into a single instance of RNG, and equalized among all classes.

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Multiple rolls of the same items/class had always a pretty low chance
Getting more then 1 reward is 1/8 chances on every item.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

Multiple rolls of the same items/class had always a pretty low chance
Getting more then 1 reward is 1/8 chances on every item.

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I'm not seeing the difference. 3 items drop, 1/7 to get 1 in your class, 1/49 to get 2 in your class, 1/343 for all 3 of them to be in your class.

for current system, 1/8 to win 1 coffer, 1/64 to win 2 coffers, 1/512 to win 3 coffers.

Being able to need all 3 coffers is nil, because there has always been a chance to win all the loot by default of the server just handing them to you. The only difference is that now we get to pick what piece we get after we win the coffer. I don't know how anyone can argue that the old system is in any way better.

The new system isn't the problem people have. The problem is the fact that it severely punishes people who pug, in that one person can get all the loot. The bigger issue is one person can get unlucky and get no loot for weeks, maybe even none at all. Even if people don't need that loot, they can go in on their off job and, rightfully so, need and get it over someone who hasn't even geared their main job.

And the last issue is that, if you're unlucky in a fight while pugging in e3s, it takes EIGHT WEEKS. What good are the pants from e3s in helping me kill, say, e4s, which is much more difficult, 8 weeks later? This is even worse when you consider it takes 4 pages for 1 accessory, so 20 weeks total if you're really unlucky. It's also ignoring the items required, which take 4 pages, to upgrade to deepshadow from tome gear. It's like intentionally making it obnoxious in an already somewhat unpleasant pug experience to obtain gear, just so people keep playing the game. I'll have all my gear... right in time for the newest Eden raid :)

You could consider lowering the amount of pages it takes, you could give 1 additional page to anyone who doesn't receive loot that ISN'T a piece of wearable gear, and you most certainly can limit loot to 1 item, regardless of what it is, per person. It's still far better than the complete RNG of the old system, it's far better if you're in a static. It's better in a pug in the former, and absolutely miserable in the latter.

There's one big problem with the math getting thrown around suggesting this is better for pugs.

With the old system, the worse off your gear was and the later you tackled the content, the more likely you were to only need to worry about gear type RNG with less chance of actually needing to roll against anyone else for the drop.

If I take a healer friend into a pug and I'm fully geared whilst they have nothing, between us we can guarantee that they will get any healer gear that drops.

With the current system, they could literally be losing rolls to people who are just going to throw the coffers on their retainer. A large chunk of people will just habitually roll need on everything regardless or not of if they are going to ever actually use it.

Basically, this system is going to make it considerably harder to gear up for people in random PF pugs who are trying catch up late in the tier. I'm not a fan of that.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

There's one big problem with the math getting thrown around suggesting this is better for pugs.

With the old system, the worse off your gear was and the later you tackled the content, the more likely you were to only need to worry about gear type RNG with less chance of actually needing to roll against anyone else for the drop.

If I take a healer friend into a pug and I'm fully geared whilst they have nothing, between us we can guarantee that they will get any healer gear that drops.

With the current system, they could literally be losing rolls to people who are just going to throw the coffers on their retainer. A large chunk of people will just habitually roll need on everything regardless or not of if they are going to ever actually use it.

Basically, this system is going to make it considerably harder to gear up for people in random PF pugs who are trying catch up late in the tier. I'm not a fan of that.

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This is what definitely needs some adjustments. I just hope they tweak the current system instead of going back because it was extremely annoying to go week after week getting gear that was literally hitting the floor.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is what definitely needs some adjustments. I just hope they tweak the current system instead of going back because it was extremely annoying to go week after week getting gear that was literally hitting the floor.

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We are more likely to end with personal loot were everyone has a flat chance to win whatever item. After all, some are also complaining that statics are "discriminating" against certain roles and it's "not fair".

IMO we already have the tools to set a group that use whatever loot rules we want (could be using master loot or find/create a static), but it seems that most people in this topic don't want to deal with the extra hassle. I get why but I don't think SE has to do anything in particular outside what they have already done. In my personal experience, no matter the loot distribution, you will have people unhappy about it. (Oh, the good old drama around DKP systems!)

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Originally Posted by Driavna

We are more likely to end with personal loot were everyone has a flat chance to win whatever item. After all, some are also complaining that statics are "discriminating" against certain roles and it's "not fair".

IMO we already have the tools to set a group that use whatever loot rules we want (could be using master loot or find/create a static), but it seems that most people in this topic don't want to deal with the extra hassle. I get why but I don't think SE has to do anything in particular outside what they have already done. In my personal experience, no matter the loot distribution, you will have people unhappy about it. (Oh, the good old drama around DKP systems!)

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I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to personal loot drops, though they would have to reduce it to a single drop per week otherwise we would be gearing up way too fast. That being said, people complaining about loot distribution need to either speak up in their static or find another one. It makes far more sense to gear DPS first, but plenty of groups don't do that.

Someone already mentioned a great suggestion,


Everyone can need everything but once a roll is won the rest of needs are automatically changed to greed.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

...Im well aware about the books and the exchange but this doesnt help at all, if i want to get all 5 accessories i need to clear e1s for 20 weeks, and this is for a single class, making gearing multiple classes impossible if you are just UNLUCKY...

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Get friends or a static for this content, is really not an option for you? Given all the advantages you get, it is worth trying.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

There's one big problem with the math getting thrown around suggesting this is better for pugs.

With the old system, the worse off your gear was and the later you tackled the content, the more likely you were to only need to worry about gear type RNG with less chance of actually needing to roll against anyone else for the drop.

If I take a healer friend into a pug and I'm fully geared whilst they have nothing, between us we can guarantee that they will get any healer gear that drops.

With the current system, they could literally be losing rolls to people who are just going to throw the coffers on their retainer. A large chunk of people will just habitually roll need on everything regardless or not of if they are going to ever actually use it.

Basically, this system is going to make it considerably harder to gear up for people in random PF pugs who are trying catch up late in the tier. I'm not a fan of that.

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And why should the less geared player that decided to tackle the content later have a higher chance to get the loot exactly?

Not to mention the fact that previous raids dropped only 2 gear pieces and around half of them were useless either because of suboptimal secondary stats (no BIS) or because nobody wanted them (i.e. that n-th fending accessory)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

There's one big problem with the math getting thrown around suggesting this is better for pugs.

With the old system, the worse off your gear was and the later you tackled the content, the more likely you were to only need to worry about gear type RNG with less chance of actually needing to roll against anyone else for the drop.

If I take a healer friend into a pug and I'm fully geared whilst they have nothing, between us we can guarantee that they will get any healer gear that drops.

With the current system, they could literally be losing rolls to people who are just going to throw the coffers on their retainer. A large chunk of people will just habitually roll need on everything regardless or not of if they are going to ever actually use it.

Basically, this system is going to make it considerably harder to gear up for people in random PF pugs who are trying catch up late in the tier. I'm not a fan of that.

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That doesn't change the fact that it used to be 1/14 for healers and gaming it so that he's the only healer who still needs gear still kept it at 1/7 chance for a healer item to drop in the first place.

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Originally Posted by EchuKayu

The new system isn't the problem people have. The problem is the fact that it severely punishes people who pug, in that one person can get all the loot. The bigger issue is one person can get unlucky and get no loot for weeks, maybe even none at all. Even if people don't need that loot, they can go in on their off job and, rightfully so, need and get it over someone who hasn't even geared their main job.

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I can guarantee Square doesn't view this as a "problem". Anyone who joins party, PUG or Sub or Static, and clears a fight, deserves a fair shake at the rewards that drops. Even if they were carried or died a lot, they contributed the fight in someway that lead to the clear and deserve the chance at the loot.

Anecdotally, my 7/8 static has had to pick up a random healer every week since week 1 and every single week so far, the random healer has walked away with at least 1 item. As a team, this is a loss as that gear no longer contributes to our team's DPS the following week, but it helps that random person and w/e party they join next week. Even though we WANT to vilify these "PUG thieves", we all know we wouldnt have cleared w/o them and they deserve a fair shot at the loot like all of us.

They could change the system that if you need on an item, it becomes the item for the job your playing at that moment. If you greed, you can use it for an alt.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

They could change the system that if you need on an item, it becomes the item for the job your playing at that moment. If you greed, you can use it for an alt.

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that's not how coffers work. they can't pre-program them.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

And why should the less geared player that decided to tackle the content later have a higher chance to get the loot exactly?

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I'd argue that they deserve the gear more than my retainer.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

that's not how coffers work. they can't pre-program them.

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That'd be a decent idea for pugs though. Effectively having the coffer auto open in your inventory there and then. If you can't use the item, you probably shouldn't be rolling Need on it.