Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

Survivability is also heavily dictated by cooldown management. If a fight (say a dungeon pull where you’re always taking a lot of damage rather than a raid boss where it’s discrete spikes) takes 20 seconds longer because of poor DPS, that 20 seconds runs the risk of being after you’ve run out of cooldowns. If you’re down 20 or 30% mitigation because of that, your healer is definitely going to notice. It’s better to just put the mobs down quickly before your resources are exhausted.

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A Tank with Tenacity melds don't even need cooldowns.

Take for example Titan on Eden Normal floor 4. He has a nasty Tankbuster that gives a debuff. Did it 5 times today. His Tankbuster did about 10k dmg on me, sometimes zero, all i used was Sheltron and Rampart/Sentinel. Then on one of the rounds, we had a Warrior with Direct Hit Melds on and he just instapulled, so i just supported him. Even with Intervention, his HP still dropped down to 20k. Oh here's the funny part, i voked it since he looks like he's struggling and 1 of the healers died. And he vokes Titan back to him. He died the next Tankbuster lol. Sounds like someone saw the forums and decided to put Direct Hit for his melds lol.

People keep pushing Direct Hit for Tanks when it clearly only makes sense to use it for Clearing DPS checks on Raids. People with Direct Hit Melds are just trying to justify their melds saying its BiS for everything when it's clearly not.

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His Tankbuster did about 10k dmg on me, sometimes zero, all i used was Sheltron and Rampart/Sentinel.

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so you had 48.8% DR from tank passive and cooldowns.

Your tenacity was 4% damage reduction.


4%.

That is 1.9% more mitigation than taking the "I want to do 4% more damage" option.

Totally worth it, that wasnt.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

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so you had 48.8% DR from tank passive and cooldowns.

Your tenacity was 4% damage reduction.


4%.

That is 1.9% more mitigation than taking the "I want to do 4% more damage" option.

Totally worth it, that wasnt.

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Sorry, i forgot, Direct Hit Melded Tanks don't know how to use cooldowns and die, just like that Warrior lol. All they care about is doing as much damage as they can to make those Direct Hit melds worth it. They don't care about the healer having to babysit them and dying because of it.

SquareEnix should change Direct Hit to only affect jobs that fulfill a DPS role lol to make it easier for these guys. Edit: I just submitted a suggestion to change Direct Hit to only affect DPS jobs. Hope SE Listens so ppl would stop wasting gil on materia not intended for that job role lol.

As someone that field tested tenacity just to make sure I'd say at this point I'd have more respect for a tank with empty slots than one with heavy tenacity melds
I want to like the stat but it may as well do nothing

As small a boost as dps melds are if it gets your group to a point where your pushing phases it's doing infinitely more damage reduction than tenacity ever could

Same with aoe, if your killing off the smaller mobs one or two gcd sooner. Immediately more damage reduction than tenacity will ever provide

keep in mind you all are talking about a game when actual tank stances were available they weren't even used for tank busters the damage was so much more valuable. If 20% didn't make a difference why would 4%?

Tenacity = 33 per 0.1% DPS, HPS, and Damage Reduction

Direct Hit = 6 per 0.1% chance / 24 per 0.1% DPS Gain

If a tank melded only Direct Hit on the ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 2780 Direct Hit meaning he would gain a 46.3% chance to deal 11.5% Damage increase.

The fact that Direct hit doesn't even give you a 50% chance to deal its 11.5% damage increase while Tenacity gives 9.7% damage increase/Dmg Mitiagation and HPS 100% of the time, makes Tenacity better.


46.3% chance of dealing 11.5% more damage vs 100% chance of dealing 9.7% damage increase / Damage Mitigation / Self healing + Crit/Skillspeed/Det.

Doesn't take a genius which one is better for a class that takes the most damage and is expected to survive hard hitting moves.

If i queue up as a Healer on Expert Roullete and i see a Tank with DH meld on i just get my finger on top of the Adlo button already. If its Tenacity/Det/Crit then my finger is going to be on the Art of War button. If its no melds at all i just unpause youtube on my 2nd screen.

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Originally Posted by RareItems

Still doesn't change the fact that Tenacity > Direct Hit for tanks unless for some reason you really need that extra dps to meet DPS checks.

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Let me chip in as a healer here for a moment:
I will NOT notice any single digit improvement to your mitigation in a savage raid. Tank damage is generally very spiky, enforcing cooldowns or you will eat dirt.
I will have to heal you back up after everyone. You taking 2K less damage won't change the # of heals I'll have to cast, not even over several minutes.

In order for me to notice single digit improvements to your mitigation, you need to take gradual/constant damage. That's where the "tank drops 5% slower" = "I get another GCD freed up" comes in. An example of that would be a wall-to-wall pull in a dungeon.

To be perfectly frank: tenacity is simply too weak to be interesting for raid tanks and since raids have rather nasty enrage timers, I can understand every tank opting for more DPS over survivability that, due to the nature of savage, won't help them or me.

BTW: I don't enjoy melding damage stats on my tank either. I'd wish there was a stat I could meld that makes me tankier AND be a community accepted choice. SE really did drop the ball AGAIN. My lil' Dork has the freedom to meld tenacity, because all he ever gets to see are dungeons anyway but other tanks have to conform or risk getting grief over it.

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Originally Posted by RareItems

46.3% chance of dealing 11.5% more damage vs 100% chance of dealing 9.7% damage increase / Damage Mitigation / Self healing + Crit/Skillspeed/Det.

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IIRC a direct hit is [normal hit * 1.25] a.k.a. 25% higher than a normal hit.

Napkin math puts DHit in front of tenacity by around 1.7%
https://i.imgur.com/5nF1rlZ.png
Calculated for a 10 minute fight, a hit every 1.5 seconds (400 hits) with an arbitrary damage of 1000 for ease of calculus.
Eh change the 11.5 to a 25 in that image, forgot to edit the title but didn't save the document. :D

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Originally Posted by RareItems

Tenacity is useful for improving your defensive capabilities while giving you some offensive boosts. Usually better when your doing content with Randoms.

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I'd argue that for content with randoms (a.k.a. non savage/ultimate), the stat choice matters very, very little. If at all. Even ex primals have super generous enrages, basically: everyone does the mechanics right and no one dies -> boss goes down.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Let me chip in as a healer here for a moment:
I will NOT notice any single digit improvement to your mitigation in a savage raid. Tank damage is generally very spiky, enforcing cooldowns or you will eat dirt.
I will have to heal you back up after everyone. You taking 2K less damage won't change the # of heals I'll have to cast, not even over several minutes.

In order for me to notice single digit improvements to your mitigation, you need to take gradual/constant damage. That's where the "tank drops 5% slower" = "I get another GCD freed up" comes in. An example of that would be a wall-to-wall pull in a dungeon.

To be perfectly frank: tenacity is simply too weak to be interesting for raid tanks and since raids have rather nasty enrage timers, I can understand every tank opting for more DPS over survivability that, due to the nature of savage, won't help them or me.

BTW: I don't enjoy melding damage stats on my tank either. I'd wish there was a stat I could meld that makes me tankier AND be a community accepted choice. SE really did drop the ball AGAIN. My lil' Dork has the freedom to meld tenacity, because all he ever gets to see are dungeons anyway but other tanks have to conform or risk getting grief over it.

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Direct Hit is only useful for clearing content faster and meeting DPS checks. Usually with a static or FC mates.

Tenacity is useful for improving your defensive capabilities while giving you some offensive boosts. Usually better when your doing Casual content with Randoms. You don't really need any melds for doing casual content, so Tenacity is best since its a better than nothing stat and is extremely cheap at the MB.


All these ppl stacking Direct Hit, most of them have statics, so their healers have a comparable Ilvl and skill when doing content. Of course your not going to want to meld Tenacity for that setup.

Dunning-Kruger operating in full force I see

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Originally Posted by Barraind

Yes. I said that.
Every 700000 to 850000 pre-mitigation damage taken will save you exactly 1 heal.
Post mitigation, this will save you one heal every 17 heals used. At 700 potency.
Thats 700 potency you dont have to bother with every 11200 potency you're healing.
Best case scenario (for tenacity), thats one less heal you have to cast every 42 seconds.

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And it does make difference, could affect the whole party performance with a healer being able to dish out one dps move. Its like a healer having additional extra 1400 spell speed reducing his gcd by 0.12 sec.
This is enough to make up for that 1-2% damage difference on a tank.
The thing becomes even more obvious in dungeons, where there is a constant source of high damage hitting a tank.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

I'm actually assuming you will never be overhealing. If you ARE overhealing, tenacity becomes EVEN WORSE, as any damage taken between the time you are at full health and full health that would not have killed you is mitigation that could have instead been outgoing damage. I'm giving you the absolute BEST case for tenacity to show you how bad tenacity really is.
I'm assuming a healer is going to use their healing spells for heals. I'm assuming any heal that also does damage is going to be used for damage.
I'm assuming a healer is not using cure1 or the like to heal.

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I think its a fair trade off.
DH is another RNG added to the equation, where tenacity is more of a team dependent stat which could be but dont have to be random.
Tenacity does bring some indirect (hehe) benefits to your tanking, comes with a little drawback and gives something else.

You may wonder why they havent changed this stat for 2 years and will probably not be changed in next 2. Devs clearly has some reasons for doing it.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

And it does make difference, could affect the whole party performance with a healer being able to dish out one dps move. Its like a healer having additional extra 1400 spell speed reducing his gcd by 0.12 sec.
This is enough to make up for that 1-2% damage difference on a tank.
The thing becomes even more obvious in dungeons, where there is a constant source of high damage hitting a tank.

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Please trust the healers when they say that whatever the tank has or hasn't melded won't affect their healing ability use in any content. What makes a difference is item level (defense and HP) and use of cooldowns. The healer will not be healing any more or less if their tank has full tenacity melds, full direct hit melds, or no melds at all, if the playstyle is otherwise the same.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Please trust the healers when they say that whatever the tank has or hasn't melded won't affect their healing ability use in any content. What makes a difference is item level (defense and HP) and use of cooldowns. The healer will not be healing any more or less if their tank has full tenacity melds, full direct hit melds, or no melds at all, if the playstyle is otherwise the same.

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So tenacity does not decrease damage at all, its a broken stat? :f

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

So tenacity does not decrease damage at all, its a broken stat? :f

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Read my post. I explained why a decrease of 5% does not matter to me as a healer.
This is more a matter of how healing classes are designed rather than what tanks do.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

So tenacity does not decrease damage at all, its a broken stat? :f

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As explained many times in this thread, while it does reduce the damage taken by a few % when compared to a gearset without tenacity melds, the difference is not significant enough to allow your healers to heal you any less, which is why it is not recommended. Your raid healers will want you to boost your damage instead, your dungeon healers don't care one way or another.

If you clear fights faster because of damage output, meaning less healing overall, it is logical what stat should be most desired.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If you clear fights faster because of damage output, meaning less healing overall, it is logical what stat should be most desired.

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Not really. The key factor is how significant the increase is. A 2.7% increase in a tank's damage when they are expected to provide 10% of the total damage done to the boss only shortens a 10 minute fight by about 17 seconds. On the other hand, increasing mitigation and self healing by 8% might mean that a tank feels significantly less squishy allowing a healer to comfortably dps more.

A good tank can pull as high as the average dancer or red mage.

Most healing is overheal, and in a boss encounter I am dpsing most of the time as a white mage; damage is an overall better stat. In dungeons, tanks are actively doing more damage than the dps. Not to mention, in burst windows tanks can do some serious damage, specifically gunbreaker.

You either want a useless stat, or a useful stat, no matter how minuscule the increase one benefits the party more than the other.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

A good tank can pull as high as the average dancer or red mage.

Most healing is overheal, and in a boss encounter I am dpsing most of the time as a white mage; damage is an overall better stat. In dungeons, tanks are actively doing more damage than the dps. Not to mention, in burst windows tanks can do some serious damage, specifically gunbreaker.

You either want a useless stat, or a useful stat, no matter how minuscule the increase one benefits the party more than the other.

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You been partying with some bad rdms if they are doing the same dmg as tanks.

ON the main topic:


With that said DMG > Everything in ffxiv due to enrage mechanics... so whatever gives them most dmg is king. So yea DH > Tenacity due to more defense not being needed to clear where dps will be required especially earlier on when ppl have less gear and the fight is not perfected.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

You been partying with some bad rdms if they are doing the same dmg as tanks.

ON the main topic:


With that said DMG > Everything in ffxiv due to enrage mechanics... so whatever gives them most dmg is king. So yea DH > Tenacity due to more defense not being needed to clear where dps will be required especially earlier on when ppl have less gear and the fight is not perfected.

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Heck, I would add samurai to that too. Most players in this game do not know how to optimize their kit, to put it nicely.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

A good tank can pull as high as the average dancer or red mage.

Most healing is overheal, and in a boss encounter I am dpsing most of the time as a white mage; damage is an overall better stat. In dungeons, tanks are actively doing more damage than the dps. Not to mention, in burst windows tanks can do some serious damage, specifically gunbreaker.

You either want a useless stat, or a useful stat, no matter how minuscule the increase one benefits the party more than the other.

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If we are talking about melds, the difference between tenacity and other melds in pure damage is just 1.6-1.8%.
As a tank you should always focus on getting highest ilvl gear, so there is not really too much of a choice if it comes to secondary stats in equipment. So you are left with melds as your choice.
A tank in raid will on average do about 60% of the damage a DPS job is able to dish out.
And average dps could do about 10k, multiply it by 4, add two times 6k, and effectively you are sitting at around 10-11% of contribution to the overall team dps in raid.
How much will a 1.6% affect the raid team dps? Wel basically 0.16%
Killing it 0.16% will virtually have zero effect on the amount of healing done to a tank, if 4% does not, then 0.16% will not be even noteciable by a parser.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If we are talking about melds, the difference between tenacity and other melds in pure damage is just 1.6-1.8%.
As a tank you should always focus on getting highest ilvl gear, so there is not really too much of a choice if it comes to secondary stats in equipment. So you are left with melds as your choice.
A tank in raid will on average do about 60% of the damage a DPS job is able to dish out.
And average dps could do about 10k, multiply it by 4, add two times 6k, and effectively you are sitting at around 10-11% of contribution to the overall team dps in raid.
How much will a 1.6% affect the raid team dps? Wel basically 0.16%
Killing it 0.16% will virtually have zero effect on the amount of healing done to a tank, if 4% does not, then 0.16% will not be even noteciable by a parser.

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Again, even if the damage increase is miniscule, it is a damage increase and benefits the party more. In a trial environment, with half decent healers, a miniscule % of increased mitigation will not help at all. A crit on a heal will make the difference, and the way heals and fights are designed in general make it even more useless. A tanks skill, and knowledge of the fight combined with smart burst, and good damage output is a better tank. All a tank needs are it's dcd's used at correct periods.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Again, even if the damage increase is miniscule, it is a damage increase and benefits the party more. In a trial environment, with half decent healers, a miniscule % of increased mitigation will not help at all. A crit on a heal will make the difference, and the way heals and fights are designed in general make it even more useless.

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This miniscule mitigation adds up in time, and will give a healer 4% relief during the run, the damage maybe not high, but its still there.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Read my post. I explained why a decrease of 5% does not matter to me as a healer.
This is more a matter of how healing classes are designed rather than what tanks do.

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Tanks still takes sustained damage, its not all spiked bursts.
You wont notice the 4% mitigation, because its below the human perception of 10% change where something is noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Taika

As explained many times in this thread, while it does reduce the damage taken by a few % when compared to a gearset without tenacity melds, the difference is not significant enough to allow your healers to heal you any less, which is why it is not recommended. Your raid healers will want you to boost your damage instead, your dungeon healers don't care one way or another.

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Its not has been proven, the prove is that healer has to use X spell to heal a tank and so because of it mitigation does not matter.
You dont count a time in these analysis, a tank with mitigation will require healing less often by a parts of seconds, which is going to turn into significant amount of time the longer fight is going.
A tank getting multiple hits to 50% will take X amount of time for this to happen, and if you give one of the tanks 4% mitigation it will hit this point 4% later in time.
This game still has sustained damage, it still needs to be healed out.
Its just that we are operating on so small numbers its never going to be noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

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You do not take in account human (player) behavior. You have 2 healers in a trial run, with heals overtime, and stacking too many heals on top of each other. All you have to do is figure out how much overhealing is actually done to know why this minuscule mitigation is worth literally nothing, while damage is always worth something. If I crit it doesn't matter if the tank is taking 2% less damage it is healed anyway, if I crit and the other healer crits on the same tank it is overheal; too much. Doesn't even have to be a crit, if I heal, and the other healer heals at the same time there will be too much most of the time. Even if both tanks are taking damage at the same time and we heal each seperately, my burst heals are still enough. On a TB healers have shields, and with smart dcd usage it still literally means nothing.Too much heals are what happens in these environments. A (very) minor increase to mitigation helps nothing.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

And average dps could do about 10k, multiply it by 4, add two times 6k, and effectively you are sitting at around 10-11% of contribution to the overall team dps in raid.
How much will a 1.6% affect the raid team dps? Wel basically 0.16%
Killing it 0.16% will virtually have zero effect on the amount of healing done to a tank, if 4% does not, then 0.16% will not be even noteciable by a parser.

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Yup, melds won't make or break a boss fight. Common mistakes in play (we're human after all), eating a void and getting a stack or even simply moving a few GCDs too long all have a much bigger impact on the teams performance.

Which is probably why SE doesn't really try to beef up tenacity to be competitive. They know that, in the end, it doesn't matter what a given player melds as long as he DOES meld the slots.

Some people just enjoy the optimization game and I get that. Personally I'd never give a tank grief for choosing tenacity. Oo
As long as he is competent and the raid knows what to do, the boss will go down anyway.
1.7% tank damage more or less is inconsequential to the final outcome.
Assuming 7K tank DPS, we're talking about a delta of lousy 119 DPS.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Tanks still takes sustained damage, its not all spiked bursts.
You wont notice the 4% mitigation, because its below the human perception of 10% change where something is noticeable.

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It is rare that I get below 20% overhealing anyway.
Trust me: 4% does not affect my performance at all. :D

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Originally Posted by RareItems

Actually i Melded Tenacity, then Skillspeed, then Crit on my PLD tank gear. Crit 1999, Det 1857, Direct Hit 418, Skillspeed 2227, Tenacity 3214. Thx to all the ppl selling cheap tier 7 Tenacity/Skillspeed materia lol.

60k Clemencies are nice. 10k Tankbusters is nice too.

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... and this alone epitomizes why you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. PLD hates Skill Speed because it mis-aligns Fight or Flight. You want only a set amount—current bis being 1133—then you never touch the stat again. As for that 10k tankbuster. Tenacity makes absolutely zero relevant difference. You'll use the same cooldowns, your heal with use the same heals. All that changes is you're doing less damage by foolishly gimping yourself out of pure stubbornness. You can decry "raid elitists" all you fancy but theorycrafters actually put in the work to determine how each stat benefits us. What have you done? Screamed on a forum how right you are with zero evidence to support your feelscraft nonsense and somehow insist a meld set build for Savage or Ultimate content will be inferior in a dungeon—you know, that mindlessly brain dead easy content.

So...I do meld tenacity on my tanks for a couple of reasons. First and foremost is that the toughest content I ever take my tanks into is Normal Mode Raids where that little extra damage from DH over Ten isn't going to really matter in that run. I do this knowing that it's less useful but I'm cheap and whatever DH materia I get goes into my DPS classes since I tend to play more than one type and really only DNC at the moment gets perfectly melded since it's the class that'll be doing all the hard stuff where that 1% increase will matter. Lastly, I'm cheap and lazy since I know that Normal Mode Raids don't need that extra boost.

If you're taking your tank into EX/Savage level content as your main class that you want to do perfectly, then yes, avoid Tenacity, suck it up and buy the more expensive DH materia, do roulettes for the materia, do your daily hunts and kill any A/S ranks that appear to help offset costs of buying.

Made another set of ilvl450 Fending gear, melded it with just Direct Hit, and have been testing it with a Samurai Friend so he can do the parsing for me. After running some Expert Roullete with it and at least 6 diffirent E4N Parties, The difference is pretty obvious and its also something that i already knew from the start.

You gain a about close to a 1-2k DPS on single target and 3-4k DPS on AoE Mass Pulls but you lose most of your utility as a tank plus the healers have to heal more and dps less (Duh).

Putting on a Ilvl450 Fending set with DH Melds on did not make any Dungeon run or E4N Run faster than if you have a ilvl450 Fending set with Tenacity/Skillspeed/Crit/Det.

So all the ppl here saying Direct Hit is the best for Tanks, and in the server chat when some newbie tank asks, which meld should they go for if they are a tank? They are pandering to an ignorant idea that Tenacity is useless and Direct Hit is the way to go.

Here's the Lodestone link, you can check all the Direct Hit Melds for the Test i did. I'll probably use it when i get lazy healers that don't DPS. It's nice to have a DPS set as a Tank.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...racter/240991/

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as a tank plus the healers have to heal more and dps less (Duh).

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I know you are absolutely not able to do the math for this, and have no idea how mitigation works in this game, but if you save your healers "a lot of heals", when AT BEST, they are saved one heal cast every SEVENTEEN casts with a full tenacity build, you are doing something very, very wrong as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

I know you are absolutely not able to do the math for this, and have no idea how mitigation works in this game, but if you save your healers "a lot of heals", when AT BEST, they are saved one heal cast every SEVENTEEN casts with a full tenacity build, you are doing something very, very wrong as a tank.

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Already tested it, seen it, friend parsed it, timed it. Literally no difference. 20minute Expert Roullete on Direct Hit, 20 Minute Expert Roullete on Tenacity with a random healer and random dps. You can stop making stuff up now lol.

Everyone who stacks Direct Hit and says Tenacity is bad is just saying that to justify their melds and blame the dps and the healer if they do a mass pull and die. It's usually the other 3 ppl who has to suffer so you can fulfill your Parser ego lol.

And before you say "If the Direct Hit melds are clearing the hardest contents in the game" please just stop. We all know Eden savage is not hard. I bet you can even clear that with Tenacity melds just as easilly.

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Originally Posted by RareItems

Already tested it, seen it, friend parsed it, timed it. Literally no difference. 20minute Expert Roullete on Direct Hit, 20 Minute Expert Roullete on Tenacity with a random healer and random dps.

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It's not reliable testing when you're only doing 2 runs with multiple variables (random players on different jobs, maybe even different dungeons). There are so many things affecting the damage done and received and healing done on those runs and there is no way to tell what is affected by your melds and what is affected by something else. Reliable testing would be to repeat same content with the same players on same jobs performing same actions at same times every time and repeat this multiple times for both gear sets.

Honestly, it doesn't actually matter that much how you meld it. All the fights, even Savage have been tested at minimum ilvl, most likely without melds and can be cleared that way. So really, one could meld and mix gear as they see fit.



That said, I do like getting as close to or at Best in Slot even with melds. As a DRK tank i've been wondering what the best route for that is. A comfy skillspeed seems a must(2.37 seconds or so on your skills seem best for delirium?), after that im mainly doing Direct Hit atm but to be fair, I'm not sure thats the best way to go. I do not think Crit is important at all for tanks so I generally skip that.


Anything that lowers damage taken and increases healing taken gets preference over crit in my opinion. DH and tenacity seem to be the better choices after skill speed.

This has probably been said a thousand times but once you know mechanics all that is left is the dps check. Therefore dps get priority on the gear. The only way it would switch is if there were sections that were impossible to get through without more healer or tank gear.

The reality is that heal checks can easily be handled by healer’s overbloated healing kits (healers actually have so much downtime they’ll be dpsing 70+% of the time, not just “one or two” spells). And tank busters are easily mitigated enough to no be fatal even when you’re way bellow the minimum ilvl.

Either passing the dps check or minimizing the amount of mechanics to handle are therefore going to be the main priority.
It also doesn’t help that historically tenacity usually hasn’t benefitted tanks enough to be worth its cost in dps.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Your claim of "Eden Savage is not hard" is not supported when you are unable to clear the content yourself. Spurious claims are annoying. Burden of proof is on you in this situation. You think it's easy? Go clear the tier.

If you can't, then you have no business making that claim.

We'll be waiting.

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I would do it but the rewards aren't worth the time and effort lol.

Meanwhile, the numerous times all healers are dead on the ground at a rank A hunt or ShB boss fate because they cant avoid this_mechanic_that_kill_you_in_one_shot correctly for the eighth time, i prefer to have more defense to survive longer, to have the time of having at least one of the afforementionned healers be rezzed/spawn in a hurry my chocobo in full healer mode. Having 1% more damage isn't gonna help me when the mob i am tanking is still at more than 75% health and when there is no dps checks on it. The game is not all about how much damage you can deal in savage raids you know.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Meanwhile, the numerous times all healers are dead on the ground at a rank A hunt or ShB boss fate because they cant avoid this_mechanic_that_kill_you_in_one_shot correctly for the eighth time, i prefer to have more defense to survive longer, to have the time of having at least one of the afforementionned healers be rezzed/spawn in a hurry my chocobo in full healer mode. Having 1% more damage isn't gonna help me when the mob i am tanking is still at more than 75% health and when there is no dps checks on it. The game is not all about how much damage you can deal in savage raids you know.

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That is very much not a gearing issue.

You can't over gear mechanics on current content. The issue there is poor play.

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Originally Posted by RareItems

I would do it but the rewards aren't worth the time and effort lol.

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Okay, then you can't have it both ways.

"Difficult" is defined as "needing much effort". So if Savage requires too much effort, then that means it's difficult.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

A cop out excuse doesn't mean the burden of proof has been removed.

Ergo

You have no authority to base any of your claims on.

Also, easy things generally aren't described as taking time and effort.

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Have 2 sets of Ilvl450 Gear, 1 with Tenacity, 1 with Direct Hit, literally no difference on the outcome. But please keep putting DH on your tank gear. It keeps Tenacity materia cheap for the smart ppl to buy lol.

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Originally Posted by RareItems

I would do it but the rewards aren't worth the time and effort lol.

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I also have yet to clear it. So I am wise enough to know better than to make claims about it’s difficulty...

Raiding is like a "the poor get poorer" and "the rich get richer" things, with DPS as the main currency. If you don't have enough DPS, the fight get longer and that means you have to deal with more and harder mechanic which usually stack at the end of the fight. Group with high DPS can clear the fights without even seeing the "hardest" part of it.

This also applies to outside of raid, like dungeon. Things die faster = tank takes less damage = healer has to heal less.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

I know you are absolutely not able to do the math for this, and have no idea how mitigation works in this game, but if you save your healers "a lot of heals", when AT BEST, they are saved one heal cast every SEVENTEEN casts with a full tenacity build, you are doing something very, very wrong as a tank.

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One in seventeen is an equivalent of 1520 Skill/spell speed which is pretty quite impressive for a "useless" stat which is gives you 1.6% less damage multiplier than DH.
Even one in 30 will be still pretty good assuming healer is overhealing 50% of time or something like that.

Keep in mind about what number are we talking about here. If a healer is able to save a heal once every 17 time, then its really good.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

If that healer is overhealing 50% of the time... then the saved heal isn't likely to be saved... because they are already healing you wayyyy too much. What makes you think they would then heal less?

Perhaps they should heal a bit less and the tank should cycle their damage reducing cool downs when they need to instead.

Wow, it seems the answer is that player skill is important during relevant content that you cannot over gear. Meaning having additional tenacity for minuscule gains in damage reduction is pointless. Because if they do not play properly in the first place, no sub stat in the world will save them.

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It kinda remind of the debate of GW2 back when it was launched. The game departed from the Holy Trinity system so there is no specific tank/DPS/heal, yet many people at the time still wanted to shoe-horn it in. One of the main sticking point back then was between class-cannon vs tanky/support build.

- Class-cannon: since the game was designed in a way that "EVERY" Damage can be avoided, people with this built rely on not taking hit while kill the bosses fast enough before the mistake creep in.
- Tanky/support build: people insisted on having tank and healer to "sustain" the fight.

There was this guy in my guild who played a Paladin and very proud of his tanky/support build. He always bragged whenever his group kill Lupicus (which was the hardest boss of the time), it's thanks to him, how he can survive the hit, heal his teams and res them when they are down. I came with him once to see what his team done, and god it was painful. The fight last somewhere between 20-30 minutes with people taking damage, dying left and right.

- By tanky, it didn't mean he didn't die, it just meant he died after 4-5 hits instead of 1-2 hits.
- By "healing the party", it doesn't mean he was able to heal his group through mistake, it just means he was able to pro-long their life a bit, so instead of a person dying 8 times during the fight, they may now only die 6-7 times.

Their clear mainly relies on corpse chaining aka hope that not everyone die at the same time to res other people and wear the boss down in the long run.

So I asked if he want to come see my class-cannon group, and he came. We nuked the boss down in less then 5min with no death, in fact, except for him none of us took any damage since we dodged all of them. The best part is even after that, he still insisted that his build is "superior". Note that I'm not talking about it was a debate of playstyle, somehow even after seeing it, he still insisted players like us was "bad" or "doesn't exist" because "if you take a hit or two you gonna die, while I can take 4 hits and survive!". I didn't press him further for his 'logic' because I knew better how it would end up anyway.