Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

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Originally Posted by XenabelleS

Aren't "no lifers" already being rewarded by the amount of gil you can make and what that allows you to do, specifically:

a) get ahead faster - because I assume that noone who has made to all 80s in the first week did so by gathering every single component themselves and even if they did, that required far more time than any casual playing. You can afford materia stockpiles for penta-melding much more easily than someone with less time or gil.
b) being ahead means you'll be able to capitalize on the upcoming savage release to make even more gil.
c) gil allows you to get into housing; you can buy gear for alts instead of collecting and making it yourself; you can buy mounts that other people have to farm, you can buy any glamour.

So it seems to me that hardcore crafters get abundant rewards over casual ones. Since the abilities you are complaining about are QoL ones that SE has introduced to help casual crafters to catch up to you and that's what you don't like.

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That gil generation is dependent on the relative scarcity of the items. Making crafting all jokey dokey both reduces the demand for those items and increases the supply, drastically reducing their value. That implicit reward you're talking about is the one that's at risk because the increase in purchasing power as items get cheaper does not out scale the drop in real value. If it's taken too far, as it has been in games like WoW, crafting pretty much becomes worthless.

Introducing things like Preparatory Touch is in no way, shape, or form a catch up mechanic or QoL, as QoL changes are tiny changes to the game that simply make something less aggravating, but have little to no impact on the overall balance or design. Some of these new abilities are instead meta defining and require you to already be caught up. They're also available from day 1 and it's equally valuable to everyone. Catch up mechanics are things like the crafting beast tribes, which are added late in the expansion to let everyone finish getting their stuff up.

Lol, I totally got ignored. I guess ignoring something you don't like is easier than addressing it.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Lol, I totally got ignored. I guess ignoring something you don't like is easier than addressing it.

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99% of your points are just redundant. I have displayed counter arguments for each and every one of your complaints. You are free to read my posts again. Also, if you want to be inflammatory in this discussion, you are free to just not say anything. You're leaning towards the "casual" side, so it's important you read my posts carefully instead of trying so hard to sound condescending over an opinion you clearly don't like, and apparently, motivated you enough to make a pointless post like that.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

99% of your points are just redundant. I have displayed counter arguments for each and every one of your complaints. You are free to read my posts again. Also, if you want to be inflammatory in this discussion, you are free to just not say anything. You're leaning towards the "casual" side, so it's important you read my posts carefully instead of trying so hard to sound condescending over an opinion you clearly don't like, and apparently, motivated you enough to make a pointless post like that.

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You haven't displayed any counter arguments towards any of the questions in my second post. What part of anything I've posted on here is "inflammatory"? I haven't called you names or insulted or cussed at you, just disagreed with you. So what your really saying there is "if you disagree with me you are free to just not say anything." I'm matching condescension with condescension. You don't want to have a discussion on this topic, you just want people to agree with you which is why I made that "useless post", so you might actually have to have a discussion with someone that disagrees with you instead of trying to shoot them down and move on.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

That gil generation is dependent on the relative scarcity of the items. Making crafting all jokey dokey both reduces the demand for those items and increases the supply, drastically reducing their value.

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Which is completely and utterly irrelevant because if peoples income goes down across the board, prices will go down accordingly. The economy works just as it always has albeit with slightly smaller numbers.
Since there is nothing in this game that costs millions of gil in the first place (barring buying a house and gil is the least of the players worry in that area) there literally is no point in amassing 100s of millions except bragging rights.
No one will come to harm with easier crafting, no one will end up in the poor house. You can stop the hyperbole in that regard.

That being said: I still hope for the master book patterns to be a bit more challenging to craft than spamming prudent till success. That gets a bit lame. Okay for leveling crap but not ok for endgame crafts.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Lol, I totally got ignored. I guess ignoring something you don't like is easier than addressing it.

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In a competitive environment, it makes 0 sense to gimp yourself, no matter how much you might enjoy the challenge.
The analogy would be to raid with unequipped slots because you deem the content too easy.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant because if peoples income goes down across the board, prices will go down accordingly. The economy works just as it always has albeit with slightly smaller numbers.
Since there is nothing in this game that costs millions of gil in the first place (barring buying a house and gil is the least of the players worry in that area) there literally is no point in amassing 100s of millions except bragging rights.
No one will come to harm with easier crafting, no one will end up in the poor house. You can stop the hyperbole in that regard.

That being said: I still hope for the master book patterns to be a bit more challenging to craft than spamming prudent till success. That gets a bit lame. Okay for leveling crap but not ok for endgame crafts.

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Which is not completely and utterly irrelevant because as I've said repeatedly I've already seen this play out in WoW and it did not in fact keep up.

Amassing gil is fun. Again, stop trying to take away everyone else's fun. That's incredibly selfish of you.

There's no hyperbole on my part. I didn't say people would end up in the poor house; I said crafting would become worthless. Flipping is better money anyway. I craft because it still makes enough money to satisfy me and is more fun than flipping. You're the one going off on ridiculous tangents about addiction and Skinner boxes because some people had the audacity to enjoy the game differently than you.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

In a competitive environment, it makes 0 sense to gimp yourself, no matter how much you might enjoy the challenge.
The analogy would be to raid with unequipped slots because you deem the content too easy.

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The OP said that "gil is irrelevant" and that's the only thing you compete for with crafting, so without that competition there's nothing stopping them from limiting their rotation to make a craft more challenging.

Maybe Square Enix can start banning all the bot farms, and all the hardcore raiding FCs on my server who openly bot and lower prices on the marketboard.

I have no intention to insult anyone and for a Theme Park MMO FFXIV crafting system is good and I don't think needs to change, still, I going to be blunt: even during ARR and HW the whole system was casual. Why?

- You can be everything in one character. No need to interact with others outside the marketplace.

- No need to compete for resources.

- This game uses a centralized marketplace, removing the importance of many other factors like location or marketing.

- All 8 DoLs are the same class.

- Materials only come in NQ/HQ.

- You can't modify the stats of any items.

- No decay.

So no, I don't think to make the final craft harder will make it more hardcore. IMO sound like just an excuse to gatekeep people out to amass more GIL. Isghard idea is a good approach for everyone, crafting is always going to be a side activity and as the own nature of everything else in FFXIV the value of the time invested will decrease over time. Farming extreme mounts when they are current is much harder than wait for a few patches or even expansion.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Amassing gil is fun. Again, stop trying to take away everyone else's fun. That's incredibly selfish of you.

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Being able to craft and be self sufficient is fun.
Stop trying to take a way my fun by reintroducing dumb and boring grinds. That's very selfish of you.

It works both ways.

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Originally Posted by Joven

The OP said that "gil is irrelevant".

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Well obviously not to the other gal, see above. :D

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I have no intention to insult anyone and for a Theme Park MMO FFXIV crafting system is good and I don't think needs to change, still, I going to be blunt: even during ARR and HW the whole system was casual. Why?

- You can be everything in one character. No need to interact with others outside the marketplace.

- No need to compete for resources.

- This game uses a centralized marketplace, removing the importance of many other factors like location or marketing.

- All 8 DoLs are the same class.

- Materials only come in NQ/HQ.

- You can't modify the stats of any items.

- No decay.

So no, I don't think to make the final craft harder will make it more hardcore. IMO sound like just an excuse to gatekeep people out to amass more GIL. Isghard idea is a good approach for everyone, crafting is always going to be a side activity and as the own nature of everything else in FFXIV the value of the time invested will decrease over time. Farming extreme mounts when they are current is much harder than wait for a few patches or even expansion.

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1. I don’t quite understand this one. We can be everything in one character? Of course we are, why wouldn’t it be? How would you suggest that be changed?

2. The competing lies in the end game market, really.

3. As I said in point 1, how would you suggest this be changed?

4. You know, they used to be their own separate class. Until patch 3.3 arrived, and introduced Ironworks gear. I assume they did that because casual players were complaining about inventory space being too limited, and the gear being too “hard” to get.

5. As I said...how would you change something like that. lol

6. Explain what you mean here, you’ve been a bit vague on nearly half of your points.

7. Explain, please?

As I’ve said for the 6th time. The point of this is so both players get compensation and compassion from developers, rather than one type of player getting special treatment. Also, how can you justify crafting being easy as it is? Because it’s a “side activity”? Oh, please. How exactly could an mmo function if crafters were “main activities” then? Probably not so much. Let’s not.

Ishgard restoration is a good approach..that is, if the rewards and compensation are adequate fo the players who go at it hardcore. Sorry, but me and other hardcore crafters I know will absolutely not waste hours “restoring Ishgard” just for a title that says “Restorer” and a shiny tool glam. Um, no. Gear with actual useful stats, or tools with useful stats. Or better yet, both. Otherwise, it’s just a pointless activity.

Every activity has a reward in every video game. The harder the activity, the greater the reward. FFXIV seems to have this backwards. You do more, you get less? Give me a break. And that’s the result of FFXIV developers favoring casual crafters over hardcore ones. Instead of favoring BOTH.

The answer is simple. Stop catering to one audience.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Well obviously not to the other gal, see above. :D

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I'm only addressing the OP's points as they chase their tail with their own logic. Crafting exists as a way for players to be relatively self sufficient in terms of gear upgrades and as a means of making money. If making money isn't their concern then making crafting difficult for the sake of making it difficult is pointless even with exclusive awards because, as I said previously, the 'pro' crafters would just release their optimum rotations for those crafts so everyone interested would still get the prize.

Making crafting difficult serves only to limit how much of certain items are posted to the marketboard. They can do as many 'challenging' crafts they want, but what are they gonna do with it once it's done? The only options are to use it or sell it and I don't see the point of wasting mats or inventory space on a craft you aren't going to use or sell just for the 'challenge' of it.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Being able to craft and be self sufficient is fun.
Stop trying to take a way my fun by reintroducing dumb and boring grinds. That's very selfish of you.

It works both ways.

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No, it really doesn't. There was only ever a modest barrier to being self-sufficient previously and the new abilities have little to nothing to do with how grindy it is. Please get a clue.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

No, it really doesn't. There was only ever a modest barrier to being self-sufficient previously and the new abilities have little to nothing to do with how grindy it is. Please get a clue.

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And OP calls me condescending, lol.

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Originally Posted by Joven

And OP calls me condescending, lol.

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Pretending we're all equally informed and competent is a disservice to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Pretending we're all equally informed and competent is a disservice to everyone.

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Assuming you know better than everyone else is also a disservice. That's why we have discussions, so you 'informed' people can enlighten the rest of us instead of dismissing everyone.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

1. I don’t quite understand this one. We can be everything in one character? Of course we are, why wouldn’t it be? How would you suggest that be changed?

2. The competing lies in the end game market, really.

3. As I said in point 1, how would you suggest this be changed?

4. You know, they used to be their own separate class. Until patch 3.3 arrived, and introduced Ironworks gear. I assume they did that because casual players were complaining about inventory space being too limited, and the gear being too “hard” to get.

5. As I said...how would you change something like that. lol

6. Explain what you mean here, you’ve been a bit vague on nearly half of your points.

7. Explain, please?

The answer is simple. Stop catering to one audience.

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I can help with this.

1. The ability to be everything artificially inflates how many Crafters of each type there are. What this means is that it removes a potential time gate from being an 'omnicrafter'. I doubt many of us would have bothered to be omnicrafters if we had to do the MSQ -8 different times-, and I for certain wouldn't invest in 7 MSQ / Job Skips. This has all sorts of design ramifications but for the basic point, it's one of two major reasons that beyond first-week of patches dropping that materials and most standard items tank. No one is going to spend a high mark up on something they can make themselves. I was selling Dwarven Cotton for 90k per HQ the first week of official release. And only because people hadn't leveled Weaver yet and didn't feel like waiting for whatever project they were working in.

now that -everyone- has weaver maxed again, the price reflects raw materials and a small premium for the time save. However if you cut down the amount of weavers by 87%, odds are Dwarven Cloth, and all other relevant wares, would be more profitable to make -for the weaver-, balanced out by the weaver now having to go elsewhere for their materials. Or spend 60 hours / dollars per profession they also want maxed out.

2. This is the second reason. Raw materials are theoretically limited only by the people going out to gather them, where as in some games, there is a finite amount that can be gathered at any time, period. If two people are farming Copper in Elwynn Forest, there's no copper for you. If a million players in FF14 are farming copper, then there's now more copper than anyone will ever need.

Bot gatherers in turn may not inconvenience the individual in this way but they certainly hit the end price of raw materials. How is this relevant to crafters? It greatly lowers the time investment since materials are so plentiful that literally every tier of material has about the same price, fluctuating only by what's in demand at any given time. Level 30 materials have the same market value as level 70 materials. The vast availability of resources, that in turn lead to the profit margins a crafter can enjoy, also leads to the large amount of people who leveled crafters so they don't have to deal with the market.

3. I don't have anything to say here. Server wide markets are for the player and I am a player. If you don't have a server wide market, you have an unofficial hub that people visit the most, and you effectively have a server wide market anyways. The Ole Undercity / Ironforge if you will.

4. Uh, actually, if memory serves, the forums were filled with people with pentamelded gear complaining that their 30mil+ pentamelds were wasted. Wasn't no casual complaining about that, let me tell you.

5. Materials influence substats on the final gear piece. This way you can remove the HQ tag and remove the need to add -more- materials. Who needs 18 types of iron.

6. The inability to customize the items you create ultimately means your items are only worthwhile if they match up with people want. If you're crafting for a Summoner but every piece has spell speed, guess there's nothing of value for them.

7. Items don't permanently break or disappear unless we're talking materia conversion, which is largely obsolete for combat classes. This means there is a hard limit to how many items go out. The healthiest crafting systems include permanent durability decreases so that an item, even well cared for, must be replaced. These type of systems rarely are in themepark MMOs like FF14 and WoW, however. You need only look at Breath of the Wild for how frustrating watching your Omega Weapon break can be.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

the new abilities have little to nothing to do with how grindy it is.

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I never stated otherwise, if you had actually bothered to read my posts and not be triggered by the first line or seeing my avatar, you would have read (multiple times by now) that I agree with you on the fact that the current crafting process is too uninvolved.

I'm merely arguing that more grind through harsher gear requirement is not a valid way to fix that because once you get your gear grinded you would, yet again, end up in a braindead macro-able and boring crafting system. It would merely take more time to get there and that [more time] would lead to the exclusivity you apparently seem to want.

BTW: I didn't ask SE to make crafting easier. I didn't ask SE to lessen the grind. Back in ARR I accepted that this aspect of the game was not my cup of tea.
But they did it anyway and now I am enjoying being self sufficent.
YOU want to take that away from me. YOU are the selfish one here. Not me. I merely take what SE offers me and tell them "I like this one better than the old one!".

I think even more people would craft if you make it a bit easier to get geared up. Right now the buy-in is harsh for people starting out for gear. A new player who has their combat class at a low level because they enjoy the crafting and housing is completely stuck without access to the crafter beastmen, most materials, money-making, cant access housing.
And since combat content is constantly being called too hard and is made easier so everyone can finish it, I think crafting is still FAR too elitist and veteran-centric. The most important player, following the discussions about lacking endgame content, is the supercasual gamehopper with no time or interest in the game, as there are apparently gazillions of them waiting to give SE their money if they just make the game easy enough.

/sarcasm

Seriously, I dont do much crafting, but 1-macro guaranteed HQ crafting for self-sufficient crafters is basically SE throwing in the towel on a meaningful economy in favor of the Farmville/Hayday squad.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe there are crafters out there that actually enjoyed 2.0 - 3.5’s RNG? Because, it helps us become better crafters, and it feels incredibly rewarding to know that you HQ’d a craft that tries to flip you off with RNG. It’s SO rewarding. Not only that, but it raises the value of your time spent per craft. Back then, crafts took 2 minutes per rotation. (makers mark and hasty touch)

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Umm, please no. I love how relaxing crafting is right now and I do NOT find RNG crafting rewarding.

I do not feel good when I lose like a million Gil worth mats to RNG when there is nothing I could have done skill or knowledge wise to prevent it.

It actually would make me really frustrated.

You aren't a better crafter when you get HQ craft from RNG. All you're doing is gambling.

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Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

Umm, please no. I love how relaxing crafting is right now and I do NOT find RNG crafting rewarding.

I do not feel good when I lose like a million Gil worth mats to RNG when there is nothing I could have done skill or knowledge wise to prevent it.

It actually would make me really frustrated.

You aren't a better crafter when you get HQ craft from RNG. All you're doing is gambling.

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I agree, RNG sucks. The number of times I've had crafts NQ when the quality was 98% almost made me stop crafting altogether.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I agree, RNG sucks. The number of times I've had crafts NQ when the quality was 98% almost made me stop crafting altogether.

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Oh yes... that's always a moment in which you just want to bite down on your keyboard. :D

I notice a few posts in the thread about "making crafting difficult is bad" or "I like crafting to be easy" or "leveling crafting is hard enough". Speaking about crafting as an overall.

What I believe hardcore crafters want is simply a little challenge at endgame, a few crafts that feel satisfying and test you, after all those hours of grind and leveling and gathering and melds and climbing to the top. It doesn't have to be riddled with rng. Leveling doesn't have to change. Heck, current lv80 crafts don't even need to change much. But 2-4 star best-in-the-game crafts shouldn't be something you can faceroll out in a days gathering with cheap melds, cheap food and NQ mats.

We'd like just a small handful of crafts to demand you really meld, work to gather your mats and better have your rotations right. Something you can feel a little pride in having made.

We don't want to make Satasha hardcore, make the MSQ super hard, make normal trials into EX. We just want the option of a Savage, everything below it is fine.

What they need to do, is have a skill handicap for each masterbook recipe.

One recipe you can't use steady hand. Find an alternative skillset such as observe > Focused touch/synth
Another one you can't use manipulation. Use an alternative such as master's mend
Another one you can't use comfort zone. Alternative will be trick's of the trade.


Basically something that makes you approach each recipe differently. Didn't the Ixal beast tribes have some sort of handicap? Can't remember if it was skill or stat...

Let the progression crafting be as easy as is so that people can train their skills and level crafters.
I feel this will cater to all types of crafters.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

What I believe hardcore crafters want is simply a little challenge at endgame, a few crafts that feel satisfying and test you, after all those hours of grind and leveling and gathering and melds and climbing to the top.

...

We'd like just a small handful of crafts to demand you really meld, work to gather your mats and better have your rotations right. Something you can feel a little pride in having made.

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Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

What they need to do, is have a skill handicap for each masterbook recipe.

One recipe you can't use steady hand. Find an alternative skillset such as observe > Focused touch/synth
Another one you can't use manipulation. Use an alternative such as master's mend
Another one you can't use comfort zone. Alternative will be trick's of the trade.

Basically something that makes you approach each recipe differently. Didn't the Ixal beast tribes have some sort of handicap? Can't remember if it was skill or stat...

Let the progression crafting be as easy as is so that people can train their skills and level crafters.

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Both sound ideas, but because of the crafter population who can make these vs the demand, would you feel that these could be healthy compromises:
- In order to buy a mastercraft book, you need to do a craft challenge

and / or

- The initial craft of each master item will have a challenge applied to it, after your first successful HQ craft, it becomes a basic craft we're used to. Anyone can NQ them, but in order to unlock the HQ variant, you need to beat the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Cleanse

Both sound ideas, but because of the crafter population who can make these vs the demand, would you feel that these could be healthy compromises:
- In order to buy a mastercraft book, you need to do a craft challenge

and / or

- The initial craft of each master item will have a challenge applied to it, after your first successful HQ craft, it becomes a basic craft we're used to. Anyone can NQ them, but in order to unlock the HQ variant, you need to beat the challenge.

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We had this in ARR, and they were terrible.

LV.80 Single Button 100% HQ from NQ Mats Macro w Reuse No Food

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

We'd like just a small handful of crafts to demand you really meld, work to gather your mats and better have your rotations right. Something you can feel a little pride in having made.

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You don't have a "crafting rotation to get right" as long as you can look it up on the web and macro it. What you describe is not challenging at all. Merely time intense.

BORING!

I never felt pride in having dealt with a time based grind in any video game, there is nothing to be proud about that.
Quite the contrary: I typically felt stupid for putting up with it, esp if the DEVs nerf it to hell 3 months later.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

We had this in ARR, and they were terrible.

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We have zero challenging puzzle crafts in the game. I'm suggesting a non-macro-able, even with best gear, craft to unlock HQ'ing the Mastercraft gear.

the new two star recipes require a bit of work, no single button macros here.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

the new two star recipes require a bit of work, no single button macros here.

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With HQ mats, they are pretty easy to do with the makers mark cheat skill.

The 2 star crafts are very easy. The quality bonus from HQ mats is insane and HQ'ing Alkahest's can be done without food or syrup as an Alc specialist.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You don't have a "crafting rotation to get right" as long as you can look it up on the web and macro it. What you describe is not challenging at all. Merely time intense.

BORING!

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That's your understanding of crafting.

I make those type of macros. If I do see something on the web, I'll look at how I can tailor it to my stats, run on cheaper melds, cheaper foods. I rather enjoy the theorycraft side of crafting and the fine tuning. Just because you find something boring doesn't mean we all do.

They can be done already with Full NQ, lol XD I use one with Reuse for spec and a 22 step without for non Spec.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Oh yes... that's always a moment in which you just want to bite down on your keyboard. :D

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https://i.imgur.com/F7jvR69.gif

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Originally Posted by Vasanta_Lockheart

They can be done already with Full NQ, lol XD I use one with Reuse for spec and a 22 step without for non Spec.

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wich is your macro's spc/no spc?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I never stated otherwise, if you had actually bothered to read my posts and not be triggered by the first line or seeing my avatar, you would have read (multiple times by now) that I agree with you on the fact that the current crafting process is too uninvolved.

I'm merely arguing that more grind through harsher gear requirement is not a valid way to fix that because once you get your gear grinded you would, yet again, end up in a braindead macro-able and boring crafting system. It would merely take more time to get there and that [more time] would lead to the exclusivity you apparently seem to want.

BTW: I didn't ask SE to make crafting easier. I didn't ask SE to lessen the grind. Back in ARR I accepted that this aspect of the game was not my cup of tea.
But they did it anyway and now I am enjoying being self sufficent.
YOU want to take that away from me. YOU are the selfish one here. Not me. I merely take what SE offers me and tell them "I like this one better than the old one!".

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Nobody's triggered. You just have bad ideas that will hurt the game and don't care because you're selfish.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Nobody's triggered. You just have bad ideas that will hurt the game and don't care because you're selfish.

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How are their ideas going to "hurt the game"? As far as I can tell they're just saying crafting is, for the most part, fine the way it is and doesn't need to be changed.

You all knew coming into this game that it was intended to cater to as many people as possible, so they're going to make it as accessible as possible to as many people as possible because money.

can someone give me some hints on used food for raid? i'll start my mass production today and i don't know wich is the more valuable/used food atm.

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Originally Posted by Lialiin

can someone give me some hints on used food for raid? i'll start my mass production today and i don't know wich is the more valuable/used food atm.

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Robe Salad. (Crit / Det is a universally good stat set up)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Robe Salad. (Crit / Det is a universally good stat set up)

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oky tx i'll start with it