Nobody Really Wants To Heal

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Originally Posted by Singularity

That's not an inherent problem with the idea of full-uptime healing though, that's a problem with the design of healing skills. You're right that it's not fun spamming one spell over and over again, but that's not because it's a heal. Take this cure-and-medica design skeleton we have and imagine it as a DPS job and you get a caster with "basic damage spell", "bigger damage spell", "AoE damage spell", "DoT", "AoE DoT" and "Ground-effect DoT", with none of them interacting with each other or the job's central theme in any way. That would be a really boring DPS.

If the healing skills fit together into some sort of rotation, unlocking or boosting each other such that you'd get significantly more healing or spend less MP from using your skills in an intelligent order, then full-uptime healing can be as engaging as full-uptime DPS. They've sort of barely touched on this idea with things like Freecure and Enhanced Benefic and Plenary Indulgence, but those designs are all awful (Plenary less so than the other two), being on spells you wouldn't want to use anyway and/or unreliable, and incoming damage isn't high enough in the current game to always make the proc useful.

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This; engaging healing, like engaging damage-dealing, requires certain self-centric and fight-centric senses of rhythm, foresight, and compromise/optimization. If there are none of the above components of gameplay, or anything similarly significant, then of course the whole will feel shallow. After all, that'd make it a toolkit that ultimately fails to provide meaningful gameplay.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Did you ever actually play classic WoW? If you didn't match the specified cookie-cutter build, you'd be laughed out of parties all day. Take off the rose-tinted glasses and it's a terrible mess.

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As a healer from that era in a top tier guild this isn’t entirely true. I can’t exactly remember when it started but during BC it was clear, healers would respec between fights to cater to the specific boss.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

If the healing skills fit together into some sort of rotation, unlocking or boosting each other such that you'd get significantly more healing or spend less MP from using your skills in an intelligent order, then full-uptime healing can be as engaging as full-uptime DPS. They've sort of barely touched on this idea with things like Freecure and Enhanced Benefic and Plenary Indulgence, but those designs are all awful (Plenary less so than the other two), being on spells you wouldn't want to use anyway and/or unreliable, and incoming damage isn't high enough in the current game to always make the proc useful.

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I also would like to see spells interact with each other more. Not in any sort of rotation but things like a single target heal refreshing regen, a chance for an aoe heal to proc the next spell as an instant cast, casting a spell gives you stacks that changes how another spell acts such as potency/mana cost/mechanic, healing damaged targets with two aoe spells causes your next single target heal to do splash aoe healing...and so on. Stuff like that.

I see others say healers should have healing rotations but this won't work. It would result in players running into problems if they end up in a situation where a lot of healing needs to be done at the worst moment of their rotation. Fights would end up having to be far more scripted to avoid this problem, which would result in a very boring experience for everyone. Something like the above is better.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I see others say healers should have healing rotations but this won't work. It would result in players running into problems if they end up in a situation where a lot of healing needs to be done at the worst moment of their rotation.

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This is where oGCD's should fit in.

If you're in a rough spot and can't get the GCD heals you need out in time, you buy the time with the oGCD's.

As opposed to oGCD's being the end-all-be-all of healing output.

To be honest, I look at the article I linked to in a previous post that discusses the Holy Trinity and it describes healing as thus:

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Healing Types

This is more simply-put than the DPS Types. To keep other players alive you either undo damage done to them, or prevent it from happening in the first place. Healers typically have multiple types of healing abilities. Some of them are slow but mana efficient, allowing you to manage your resource to keep people alive while also keeping you from running dry.

They will also typically have some emergency spells. These are very mana inefficient, and should only be used when there is a sudden need for them. This sacrifices efficiency in order to improve a situation going downhill very quickly. Sometimes this is worth it to keep people alive, because being mana inefficient is worth it if the alternative is having lots of mana, but your team is dead with you soon to follow.

Shielding your allies from harm is also applicable, but rarely are there whole playstyles that revolve around this. This includes putting up barriers that reduce or eliminate incoming damage, using CC to keep enemies busy, or increasing ally’s resistances to certain types of damage.

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Then you look at XIV's "Healers" and then laugh.

Mana efficiency? Lel oGCD's are free.

Mana inefficient "Emergency" heals? Lel oGCD's are free.

Slow but efficient heals? Lel oGCD's are instant cast (And free).

Shielding allies is rarely an entire gameplay? Lel Critlo-Deploy.

Using CC's to keep enemies busy? Lel wut's a CC?

Increasing an allies resistance to damage? Lel DaNcEr Is BuFfEr

I guess impopular opinion here, but I love pure healing @x@
In fact, I tried SCH up to lv 40+ and got bored because I was more expected to DPS than heal. The fairy did all the healing on her own!

Also, I'm very confused as to what the problem is supposed to be with WHM. Unless there's anything I'm missing, I understood that WHM is not going to lose Stone, (individual) Aero, or Holy, so we'll be able to dps the same as before.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Fine. Then why can't we get some buffs? They have been purging WHM of any buffs? We just lost protect-- permantently this time. The DPS classes have all the buffs. If the healers are going full support, shouldn't we be getting more buffs?

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Um, White Mage gets a raid-wide 10% damage reduction cooldown and a 10% localized increase to healing received when all healers (not just White Mage) lost a spell that is the mechanical equivalent of a tinfoil hat. Scholar still has Chain Stratagem while getting things like the "Crit-lo" buff that can be applied through Deployment Tactics on top of a fairy upgrade cooldown because clearly the job didn't have enough damage absorption. Even Astrologian, while it might lose some support aspects from cards, can now more consistently provide regular damage buffs for an entire party. You're welcome.

Also, I'd argue that fighting Titania at E3 is a faulty comparison since....

1) the perspective is from people at E3 rather than players who have gotten used to the newer systems we'll be getting.
2) primal fights in leveling for both previous expansions have always been a royal pain at the start, but got easier as time progressed (because more people knew and understood the mechanics).
3) values and mechanics for specific individual fights are a lot easier to adjust without ramifications compared to adjusting jobs.

I think my sig says it all for me on this topic.

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Originally Posted by Videra

So do you just not pay attention? Because this info has been out in the wild for about half a month now.

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I am aware of the new skills being released. I am asking who came with this being the most optimal rotation for a class, and how they determined this.
Pretty sure Yoshi-P did not say "This is how you play WHM from now on"

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

I am aware of the new skills being released. I am asking who came with this being the most optimal rotation for a class, and how they determined this.
Pretty sure Yoshi-P did not say "This is how you play WHM from now on"

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Damage output is a pretty straightforward calculation of potency per second. The fewer abilities you could choose on any given GCD, and the shorter the expected rotation to optimize oGCD placement, the faster a computer can do the combinatorics and calculate the optimal rotation.

So basically how they determined this is they took all the potency numbers, cooldowns, etc. from the media tour, the damage formulae that people have spent the past few years reverse engineering, and threw them into a computational blender. The output was the optimal rotation.

The problem space for these DPS rotations is so small you don’t even need to use a heuristic and hope it gives you the right answer. You can literally simulate every possible rotation and pick the one that produces the best number.

“B-b-but these are beta versions and the potencies may not be final!!!!!!11111one”

So when the people with the sims get their hands on the game client at prerelease they’ll re-run the calcs and in a couple minutes post an infographic of the new optimal rotation. It’ll take longer to position the icons on a background and write the text notes than to calculate the rotation, most likely.

I would rather have zero DPS skills and play content that actually hurts. I don't care if it's as simple as more unavoidable damage, more poxes upon the party I have to esuna or more bleeding mechanics I have to HOT through.

I just want to heal, is that so much to ask? It's very annoying to be expected to play a healer as if I'm a sad excuse of a DPS class with healing as an afterthought depending on who can't move in time.

Thanks for the good laugh with this topic, always funny to see where this "only DPS matters" meta leads to.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

I would rather have zero DPS skills and play content that actually hurts. I don't care if it's as simple as more unavoidable damage, more poxes upon the party I have to esuna or more bleeding mechanics I have to HOT through.

I just want to heal, is that so much to ask? It's very annoying to be expected to play a healer as if I'm a sad excuse of a DPS class with healing as an afterthought depending on who can't move in time.

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My biggest problem with the whole "healers should always dps!" mentality is that healers are expected to be hybrids so they must use both their offensive and support spells, while dps are rarely expected to use their defensive and supportive abilities aside from ressing. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have seen a dps being told off for not using support abilities which would actually permit healers more to do dps, yet I see snarky remarks about dps being directed to healers pretty often. And this isn't because dps usually use their full kit. In my experience they rarely do.

The cherry on top is when I look up some of the players in these forums on fflogs who complain about healers being unable to balance both dps and healing, while often their own logs show some pitiful dps numbers and usually an utter lack of using support abilities.

The hypocrisy drives me mad.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

My biggest problem with the whole "healers should always dps!" mentality is that healers are expected to be hybrids so they must use both their offensive and support spells, while dps are rarely expected to use their defensive and supportive abilities aside from ressing. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have seen a dps being told off for not using support abilities which would actually permit healers more to do dps, yet I see snarky remarks about dps being directed to healers pretty often. And this isn't because dps usually use their full kit. In my experience they rarely do.

The cherry on top is when I look up some of the players in these forums on fflogs who complain about healers being unable to balance both dps and healing, while often their own logs show some pitiful dps numbers and usually an utter lack of using support abilities.

The hypocrisy drives me mad.

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In pugging scenarios these support abilities are often just considered a bonus by the community, as you say. Probably in large part because pugs don’t want to/don’t expect success out of organizing feint, addle, palisade, etc. rotations. However I can assure you that in group play many of us plan these things out so no tank buster is taken without support, the busters at the most critical moments get the strongest support. Addle was a huge part of the way we handled Neo Exdeath for example, and you’re totally on the mark that the reason we did it is so healers could maximize DPS.

It’s unfortunate that the broader community doesn’t easily see the importance of these things the way they see the importance of healer DPS. The only thing I can say to mitigate it is that in the case of healer DPS, it’s about filling GCDs and performing a comparable number of actions over the course of a fight as your party members. That and the fact that healer damage is no joke and is definitely not “a few points of damage.” I think people have a harder time visualizing what something like a 10% damage reduction on a big hit enables for the group.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

In pugging scenarios these support abilities are often just considered a bonus by the community, as you say. Probably in large part because pugs don’t want to/don’t expect success out of organizing feint, addle, palisade, etc. rotations. However I can assure you that in group play many of us plan these things out so no tank buster is taken without support, the busters at the most critical moments get the strongest support. Addle was a huge part of the way we handled Neo Exdeath for example, and you’re totally on the mark that the reason we did it is so healers could maximize DPS.

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I know all of this already. My problem is the expectation for dps to use their full kit tends to usually be restricted to ex and savage and even then it's not always a god given rule for them. Whereas for healers it doesn't matter what content they're in. They're expected to be hybrids 24/7.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

It’s unfortunate that the broader community doesn’t easily see the importance of these things the way they see the importance of healer DPS. The only thing I can say to mitigate it is that in the case of healer DPS, it’s about filling GCDs and performing a comparable number of actions over the course of a fight as your party members. That and the fact that healer damage is no joke and is definitely not “a few points of damage.” I think people have a harder time visualizing what something like a 10% damage reduction on a big hit enables for the group.

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I understand if people complain at a healer standing around doing nothing, or over healing a lot. But sadly these aren't the only times when healers are being told to dps. I have seen abuse thrown at healers for using gcds on much needed healing. Some people quite frankly don't understand the demands of healing to the point that they are asking for healers to doom the party to wipe. Meanwhile we don't see much of anything being said to dps even though using their support abilities doesn't even cost them numbers because they're ogcds...and even though simple logic dictates that this would increase the team's dps due to giving the healer less to heal.

I'm just tired of seeing the weight of playing a hybrid being only on the healer's shoulders when the fact is every class in the game can do things to help the healer be able to dps more, without it costing them their own dps.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

I would rather have zero DPS skills and play content that actually hurts.

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Why not have content that actually hurts and often requires constant healing and have your dps skills? In which case it wouldn't be expected of you, but more a bonus and a higher skill ceiling.

Those who argue for dpsing as a healer do want healing to still be the primary focus. Higher damage intake would be great. But the appeal of the role for a lot of players is being able to contribute more to the party than a simple dps. Being able to keep your entire party alive flawlessly and adding a few thousand extra raid dps makes you very valuable to a group, especially when high end fights are on timers. It rewards playing exceptionally well. That appeals to some players.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I know all of this already. My problem is the expectation for dps to use their full kit tends to usually be restricted to ex and savage and even then it's not always a god given rule for them. Whereas for healers it doesn't matter what content they're in. They're expected to be hybrids 24/7.

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I think the problem with that comes to downtime.
The lower the content, the more downtime a healer usually has with a decent party. Ultimately I would personally expect DPS to use support abilities they have even in PUGs, however.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I understand if people complain at a healer standing around doing nothing, or over healing a lot. But sadly these aren't the only times when healers are being told to dps. I have seen abuse thrown at healers for using gcds on much needed healing. Some people quite frankly don't understand the demands of healing to the point that they are asking for healers to doom the party to wipe.

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I’m sure you are correct that this does happen. The internet is full of people ready to point fingers despite only having a surface level understanding of what they’re complaining about.

However, there are also a lot of healers out there who don’t know or don’t care that GCD healing is not the norm in this game. When their default go-to should be waiting for an efficient tetra, essential dignity, etc., they instead hold onto those cooldowns for an emergency that is never going to come, and waste all their GCDs mashing entirely superfluous heals. This is very bad play in the same way that a tank not using cooldowns until it’s too late to matter is very bad play, and it’s okay to expect more out of our healers. It should be done tactfully of course, but they should learn this fact and apply it.

Re: expecting healers to be hybrids, all I personally expect is that healers are equally engaged and putting as much valuable effort into an encounter as anyone else. Today, that means about 60-70% of their GCDs should be spent doing damage. I’d *love* it if this game was much more demanding in terms of healing and healers didn’t have substantial time to DPS. I’d love it so much.

However, that’s not going to happen. The team behind this game is not going to alienate healers who cannot handle pressing a button every 2.5 seconds or so. Right now they may be playing badly by not DPSing and they may be called out, both in good and less-good ways, but they at least get to clear content. Bring the healing requirements up to WoW levels and a lot of people are going to stop being able to even finish dungeons.

Do I think these people should “gitgud?” By and large, sure. I prefer video games to be video games, not movies where a successful outcome is basically guaranteed. But I don’t work for Yoshida. What I think doesn’t matter. What we’re going to get is healing that requires the same ~30% uptime or maybe a tiny bit more, but not a radical increase of difficulty that requires intense healing every global and tons of micromanagement of MP cooldowns and decision-making between MP efficient and high throughput heals. Some 60-70%ish of the time, the optimal choice will still be for a healer to cast a DPS spell.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

I’m sure you are correct that this does happen. The internet is full of people ready to point fingers despite only having a surface level understanding of what they’re complaining about.

However, there are also a lot of healers out there who don’t know or don’t care that GCD healing is not the norm in this game. When their default go-to should be waiting for an efficient tetra, essential dignity, etc., they instead hold onto those cooldowns for an emergency that is never going to come, and waste all their GCDs mashing entirely superfluous heals. This is very bad play in the same way that a tank not using cooldowns until it’s too late to matter is very bad play, and it’s okay to expect more out of our healers. It should be done tactfully of course, but they should learn this fact and apply it.

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Well yes of course but there are bad players in every role. My point hasn't got to do with bad players as such, more that the expectation to use your full kit is constant as a healer but is only in a handful of content as a dps. Even if said dps kit can help healers do what is expected of them even better. It's hypocritical, annoying and illogical. That's it.

I like the changes. Now healers will have to actually heal, and not let tank die due to ermahgodbigdikdpsu and then blaming the tank for dying. :D.

But please. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Drayce1

I like the changes. Now healers will have to actually heal, and not let tank die due to ermahgodbigdikdpsu and then blaming the tank for dying. :D.

But please. Carry on.

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Really, it's about time.
No more regen then dps your heart to death as if it was a dps role.

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Originally Posted by Drayce1

I like the changes. Now healers will have to actually heal, and not let tank die due to ermahgodbigdikdpsu and then blaming the tank for dying. :D.

But please. Carry on.

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Please read my comment above regarding why I believe healers won’t “have to actually heal” and let me know if you still believe that they will and that I am wrong. I just don’t see it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well yes of course but there are bad players in every role. My point hasn't got to do with bad players as such, more that the expectation to use your full kit is constant as a healer but is only in a handful of content as a dps. Even if said dps kit can help healers do what is expected of them even better. It's hypocritical, annoying and illogical. That's it.

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It's not hypocritical, it's simply that DPS and Healer roles are designed in very different ways.

If looking at strictly their "main" skills/role:
-A DPS has a fairly rigid rotation to maximize DPS and continues it throughout a fight. A healer has no set rotation for healing, and instead waits for damage to react to in order to use skills. That waiting can equate to A LOT of downtime, while the DPS has none.

I would say that every job should try to be as beneficial as their role allows, with the provided skills they are given. I don't understand why healers think they should get a pass on this.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

That waiting can equate to A LOT of downtime

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then adjust the damage
do not lie to yourself, u can play any other mmo to see how damage is a joke in this game

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

while the DPS has none.

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Thats a false statment on so many levels

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

then adjust the damage
do not lie to yourself, u can play any other mmo to see how damage is a joke in this game

Thats a false statment on so many levels

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I'm not sure why you're picking apart my comment when I said absolutely nothing about the damage/actual fights at all. But OK, we can go there. Damage in this game is quite negligible in many instances, and this is why healers are stuck twiddling their thumbs - at least those who feel they shouldn't have to reach into their DPS skills. That is my point.

I have stated on many threads that I am excited for the potential changes to encounters, and would love to have a more "healing focused" healing role, however, that's not where we are currently in this game.

And for DPS downtime, can you explain? Is constant/max damage not expected of a DPS? I'm not talking the seconds between GCD skills when you have nothing to weave.

To be honest, compared to WoW healing mechanics in this game are utterly boring. Everybody has an AOE heal centered around caster (Medica,Succor,Helios and variants), a single target weak (Cure, Physick, Benefic) and a single target stronger heal GCDs (CureII BeneficII ) . Then you get an instant OGC instant (Tetragrammaton, Lustrate, Essential Dignity) , and an AOE instant centered around caster (Assize, Indomitability). Then to "spice" things up, we get Shield with heal or Hot with heal (Aspected Benefic, Adloquium, Regen). (And in Shadowbringers those two things get rather homogenized again.)

Then you get a few more "unique" spells: Excogitation, Earthly Star and Asylum which I hoped we'd get more of in Shadowbringers, but nope. They want to emphasize the "Pure healer" aspect of healers but healing hasn't changed mechanically. It's still the same splash spells, and the little things that are unique and interesting, like the Horoscope mechanic where you apply a heal and then you "charge" it up with an aoe to have it burst with extra healing is handed to both WHM and AST and on a rather long CD. Most interesting spells are on long CDs, so most of the fights you are stuck with spamming boring press-button-cast heal abilities.

I WoW you had bouncing heals, Dps-healing, stacking hots then using a spell to cancel them to apply heal in a burst, chain healing, fountains of healing, duplicating healing on specific targets marked, channelled healing streams.

But then, as opposed to WoW healing, in FFXIV you would spice things up by weaving other actions in, support or damaging actions, and healing would turn into this frantic swithing on targets, enemies and allies, who to heal and who to damage, who to buff and who to focus down. It made healing much more interesting.

Point being, I think pure healing will be boring, because the tools we were given to do so are boring.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Really, it's about time.
No more regen then dps your heart to death as if it was a dps role.

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Can DRK finally have Blood 4 Blood? I cant wait, with all this extra healing going on. dpsdpsdpsdpsdpsdpsdpsdps

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

It's not hypocritical, it's simply that DPS and Healer roles are designed in very different ways.

If looking at strictly their "main" skills/role:
-A DPS has a fairly rigid rotation to maximize DPS and continues it throughout a fight. A healer has no set rotation for healing, and instead waits for damage to react to in order to use skills. That waiting can equate to A LOT of downtime, while the DPS has none.

I would say that every job should try to be as beneficial as their role allows, with the provided skills they are given. I don't understand why healers think they should get a pass on this.

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The bolded section is literally what I want other roles to do. Not using your full kit when you're well able to without disrupting your main role, while complaining about someone else who does not, is hypocritical.

And sorry but this stuff about dps and healers being designed differently doesn't really apply here given non-healer support abilities tend to be ogcds which can be woven into a dps rotation flawlessly if a player knows what they're doing. If I, a healer main, can use my support abilities without disrupting my rotation, then surely a dps main can too. It's not hard to click palisade, addle, feint, etc.

If they make damage higher so healer has to spend 90% time healing, it would actually kill the diversity in duties, not allowing for aoe mechanics, because that would be too much for a average skilled and geared teams.
Even today healers do no have easy job to keep everyone up in trials or raids, especially in alliance raids where there a ton of people dying and taking damage and you have to keep up healing them all from it.
Now imagine how it will look if a healer was not that good and would have a weak gear or dps taking all damage possible or tank not using CD's.
There would be wipes non stop.
I personally never played a healer, but as a tank i could tell you there are a lot of healers who arent the masters of their profession and their mistakes causes a wipes a lot of times. Bigger damage means more strain on tanks and healers at the same time, and it could ruin duties for pugs.
Healer had a lot of downtime with a skilled and geared teams, there is really nothing much they could do about it, the differences between someone with gear and skill and someone who has none of it is like 2-3 times on the DPS so its obvious that a healer at one point will have less work to do.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The bolded section is literally what I want other roles to do. Not using your full kit when you're well able to without disrupting your main role, while complaining about someone else who does not is hypocritical.

And sorry but this stuff about dps and healers being designed differently doesn't really apply here given support abilities tend to be ogcds which can be woven into a dps rotation flawlessly if a player knows what they're doing. If I, a healer main, can use my support abilities without disrupting my rotation, then surely a dps main can too. It's not hard to click palisade, addle, feint, etc.

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I agree with the first bit, but then you kind of lose me on the second half again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that a DPS's free-time equates to what they can weave inbetween their GCD skills. They may have some support skills they can toss out, but that impact is minimal compared to what a healer can do in their free-time.

I don't do savage/current EXs, so use that to gauge where I'm coming from, but in a lot of the content that I run I can be out DPSing actual DPS on certain pulls. That may speak more of the DPS in party, but the damage that a healer can add isn't some small amount. A DPS's support skills will of course help, but they're not on the same level as healer DPS.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I agree with the first bit, but then you kind of lose me on the second half again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that a DPS's free-time equates to what they can weave inbetween their GCD skills. They may have some support skills they can toss out, but that impact is minimal compared to what a healer can do in their free-time.

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Actually it can make a noticeable difference if casted at the correct moment. I certainly notice a difference between playing with people I know who do use their role actions, and pugs who do not. Even if the tank is the same player and the content is the same.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I don't do savage/current EXs, so use that to gauge where I'm coming from, but in a lot of the content that I run I can be out DPSing actual DPS on certain pulls. That may speak more of the DPS in party, but the damage that a healer can add isn't some small amount. A DPS's support skills will of course help, but they're not on the same level as healer DPS.

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I never made any claim they were on the same level as a healer. I did however say that they can help a healer to contribute more dps if said abilities mean healers have less to heal. Palisade is sometimes the difference between me having time to do three more dps gcds and having to choose to heal the tank instead. That's just one ability at one time. All those gcds add up over time in content. I can easily miss out on 20+ gcds of dps in a dungeon because people forget about their support abilities.

And seriously these abilities are one click buttons. That's it. It's not difficult to do so why not do it? If you're not weaving in an offensive ogcd what's wrong with weaving in a support one? Oh right. I forgot. It's this thing called effort.

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Originally Posted by Wifflum

I bought an indie game where all you do is mmo style healing. I love it.

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I'd like to get in on this. What is it?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If they make damage higher so healer has to spend 90% time healing, it would actually kill the diversity in duties, not allowing for aoe mechanics, because that would be too much for a average skilled and geared teams.
Even today healers do no have easy job to keep everyone up in trials or raids, especially in alliance raids where there a ton of people dying and taking damage and you have to keep up healing them all from it.
Now imagine how it will look if a healer was not that good and would have a weak gear or dps taking all damage possible or tank not using CD\\\\'s.
There would be wipes non stop.
I personally never played a healer, but as a tank i could tell you there are a lot of healers who arent the masters of their profession and their mistakes causes a wipes a lot of times. Bigger damage means more strain on tanks and healers at the same time, and it could ruin duties for pugs.
Healer had a lot of downtime with a skilled and geared teams, there is really nothing much they could do about it, the differences between someone with gear and skill and someone who has none of it is like 2-3 times on the DPS so its obvious that a healer at one point will have less work to do.

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I would be so much happier if this was the case and everyone was expected to play thier role in a more concrete way. Even in alliance raids where several people are dying at once that just makes healing more engaging and gives DPS who have raise in their toolkit an opportunity to support the party. Non-healers would have more expectation to dodge mechanics, especially DPS with the "healer adjust" mentality. They would also be 100% responsible for DPS like they should be and would need to worry about movement and damage rather than just nuking while standing in aoes and expecting to be revived constantly. The whole we need healers to DPS to pass DPS checks would no longer be a thing.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

just nuking while standing in aoes and expecting to be revived constantly. The whole we need healers to DPS to pass DPS checks would no longer be a thing.

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Either this means we wouldnt need healers period, or that you dont want to be responsible for healing the dps so they can - pass the dps checks -
This is super confusing to me. You cant have one side, without the other. What they are going to do, to make you happy, is bump the incoming amount of unavoidable damage, now you really will be forced to be responsible when a dps check fails because you'll be expected to heal them from damage- damage they are unable to avoid-that is all. Itll be no more enganging than when you can literally see a drg eat an avoidable aoe, and have already known, probably chuckling(at least that would amuse me but everyones different), that theyre going down. So what you want is for more avoidable damage and more downtime to dps as a healer, or do you want avoidable aoes to disappear so you have to heal more frequently anyway?

Spoiler Alert: You most likely will have to raise more often, because it will be unavoidable.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

People do love to play healer but truthfully nobody wants to be a full on healer as it's boring and quite frankly just not fun.

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I'm late to this conversation apparently but I just want to say that this is not true. I love healing, only healing, all healing, and if I had my way we wouldn't even HAVE a dps button outside of levelling up. My best memories are nonstop healing in heroic Ulduar, heroic Naxx, heroic Icecrown, and before that in Black Temple, Sunwell, Serpentshrine, and so on. Where healing, and healing constantly, were all that mattered. I know and accept I can't do that here, but if I had my way it'd be like that. I know I'm a minority, but that's okay.

I'm a healer. That's what I like to do. Anything else is only out of necessity.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

I mean yea you have people that love the healing class as a general concept. A holy centric magician that can utilize the power of light to slay the enemies and rejuvenate the health of allies.

People do love to play healer but truthfully nobody wants to be a full on healer as it's boring and quite frankly just not fun. It's the same situation with Tanks if all you are is just a meat shield then you may as well be a puppet with 2 buttons.

This whole closed minded notion that "Healers only heal" and "Tanks stop doing damage leave it to DPS" is just absurd. Everybody is equal and important to the task at hand in some way shape or form and not everyone has to be one trick ponies when they dont have to.

With Shadowbringers coming up, I couldnt be more excited, but the White Mage changes are just especially heinous. The fact of the matter is you are removing OPTIONS in combat which is something you should never do regardless of the state of the game.

How do you go from a game like Final Fantasy XI where you had spells as far as the eye can see on top of the spells you obtain from your sub class usually black magic or scholar if you were a wiz kid, to now where the healer ONLY heals.

XI- Cure I II III IV V Protect Shell Blink Stoneskin Aquaveil all the Bar and En elemental buff spells Banish I II III IV V Holy Dia Diaga Diaga II Sneak Invisible Deoderize
And so many others

XIV- Protect.....Cure I, II, III, Holy....yea that's about it.

And now were getting protect removed in favor of Dia which was always traditionally a lvl 1 spell now it's a max lvl spell explain that one to me.

Bottom line- nobody likes it when they have options taken away from them. Why do you think people enjoyed classic Wow so much? Because classes back then didnt limit you in silly ways you could make yourself whatever you wanted to back them and have skills/spells up the wazoo.

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Speak for yourself, I'm perfectly happy being a pure healer as is my wife.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

Please read my comment above regarding why I believe healers won’t “have to actually heal” and let me know if you still believe that they will and that I am wrong. I just don’t see it.

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Oh they will. Sorry but the fail green dps b.s gone on long enough. Time to take the toys away.

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Originally Posted by Drayce1

Oh they will. Sorry but the fail green dps b.s gone on long enough. Time to take the toys away.

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So you believe SE is okay with the healers who today, cannot keep up with DPSing and healing and so only or almost only heal, in 5.0 become the reason why parties fail dungeons for hours, due to their inability to meet healing demand?

Or you believe that these players are today playing at 30% of their potential and come 5.0 will be 3x better players?

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Originally Posted by Drayce1

Oh they will. Sorry but the fail green dps b.s gone on long enough. Time to take the toys away.

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I have a thread for you to read: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Titania-Fight

TL;DR: No, things are about the same as they are in Stormblood now.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

So you believe SE is okay with the healers who today, cannot keep up with DPSing and healing and so only or almost only heal, in 5.0 become the reason why parties fail dungeons for hours, due to their inability to meet healing demand?

Or you believe that these players are today playing at 30% of their potential and come 5.0 will be 3x better players?

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They'll level up to that standard. There's ways for a company as professional and competent as Square-Enix to measure this.
Take The Burn's last boss for example, some healers will cry, die, and fail but eventually they'll get better at healing and complete the fight.

They have ways to measure when enemies are doing too much/too little.