Blue Mage: Are you kidding me!?

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

https://massivelyop.com/2018/11/22/w...ont-like-that/

May want to try and give this a read it actually makes a lot of sense. Whether you agree with it or not.. it’s interesting

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I disagree with a lot of it. It seems to offer the worst arguments it could have found, and set them up in even worse ways, only to use arguments with it that people are having all the time in these threads. Essentially taking the second part of discussions without the rest of discussions. Too many vapid assumptions like "let’s even suppose for the sake of argument that it doesn’t just feel like Black Mage But Mildly Different." which is just silly. If this is such a common assumption, why do the other two casters play very differently?
Here's some real questions people need to actually answer, as these seem to be big ones most people who are fighting for BLU are truly asking.
"Why not add a standardized and coherently designed Job as a separate mode from this Move-log and carnival stuff?"
"Why should we, as players, be okay with classical Final Fantasy jobs that are made more like minigames than jobs?"
"Why should we expect this content to earn continued support unlike every other diversion from main content?"
"Why is the idea of adapting a job into the FFXIV formula,assuming they do so in a way that preserves the job fantasy, considered so bad if they do it right like RDM?"
"Why is BLU a good thing to make into a minigame? Why not remove summoner as a standard job, make it limited, but give them the large and varied summons they've been wanting? Wouldn't that be much more faithful, and, according to most staunch defenders of this, better off because of it?"

Also, I wish people would stop acting like people who want BLU in 14 as a standard job don't realize they play differently. Anyone who has seen even 10 seconds of FFXI gameplay knows that much.

Guys Get the spells, Get to level 50 and then go into Party Finder get 8 Players (through Chat or Party Finder) willing to Try and Guess What Do Coil. Personally I think Blue Mages Can Solo, Do Dungeons, Trails and 8 man Raids but you want a Solo Job to do all things. It will not Happen. you will have as of ShadowBringers 18 Jobs (17 Normal do all things Jobs and a Limited Job) that can do half of what the others do. We can all agree why isn't Deep Dungeon allowed mostly I stand by it's not 60 yet since Blue Mages could solo it easy (unless that's what the Carnival for). but I do agree SE is trying to be fateful to the Blue Mage. Some Jobs will not be able to do all things and Go to all places but that doesn't mean it's not able to be A main Job as long as your willing to work on it and get to level50 yet alone to level 80.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

https://massivelyop.com/2018/11/22/w...ont-like-that/

May want to try and give this a read it actually makes a lot of sense. Whether you agree with it or not.. it’s interesting

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It makes about as much sense as a platypus.

Like i said before i already know way they did this because he know there will be alot of lazy players that try to play blue mage but they will not like to farm all there spells like most of us just like they did in 11 alot of ppl just wanted to play blue mage but didn't want to farm.... Then you see them say this.. Way Can't they just give us the spells its stupid to farm spells so long.. then i say this.. If u don't want to farm spells blue mage is not for you play other classes. Tht's wat he was mostly looking at not that blue mage get spells farm monsters that way he said tht about bad breath lol it's sad how a noob can mess everything up for the better players but wat can we say.. when you look at blue mage they was never op they had alot to bring to groups. when i look at the monster abilitys they have in 14 blue mage can use them like acid water or shower i think the monster ability name was. Anyway i said wat i had to say and i know this is true i see alot of them in FF14 already they will disagree with what i'm saying but its true they will also like this ti happen to blue mage now because its almost like FF11 farming spells.

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Originally Posted by Starcake28

Like i said before i already know way they did this because he know there will be alot of lazy players that try to play blue mage but they will not like to farm all there spells like most of us just like they did in 11 alot of ppl just wanted to play blue mage but didn't want to farm.... Then you see them say this.. Way Can't they just give us the spells its stupid to farm spells so long.. then i say this.. If u don't want to farm spells blue mage is not for you play other classes. Tht's wat he was mostly looking at not that blue mage get spells farm monsters that way he said tht about bad breath lol it's sad how a noob can mess everything up for the better players but wat can we say.. when you look at blue mage they was never op they had alot to bring to groups. when i look at the monster abilitys they have in 14 blue mage can use them like acid water or shower i think the monster ability name was. Anyway i said wat i had to say and i know this is true i see alot of them in FF14 already they will disagree with what i'm saying but its true they will also like this ti happen to blue mage now because its almost like FF11 farming spells.

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Erm...let's face it. Blue Mage in EVERY ITERATION, in some shape or form, had to learn spells from Monsters. I challenge you to name ONE GAME in the FF series that introduces a Blue Mage, and does not use Monsters to learn their Blue Magic(Exemption is VIII, because that was an entirely different learning system).

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Erm...let's face it. Blue Mage in EVERY ITERATION, in some shape or form, had to learn spells from Monsters. I challenge you to name ONE GAME in the FF series that introduces a Blue Mage, and does not use Monsters to learn their Blue Magic(Exemption is VIII, because that was an entirely different learning system).

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I don't think they were complaining about learning spells. Sounded more that they were saying the argument that "player doesnt have X spell so they will be kicked" as a reason to limit blu is dumb. That most people that wanted blu would actually put in the time to learn their spells instead of trying to skate by.

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Originally Posted by Flatopia

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1 - Isn't that what they're working on for Shadowbringers? We don't know what they do in the back-end other than make attempts to make the game better.

2 - Because of the way Blue Mage is set up. We all know it has to learn skills from monsters, and if you try to take that into a standardized dungeon setting, there's bound to be problems either on one end or another is Blue Mage is missing a skill or two.

3 - We don't know the answer to that question, but in regards to diversions, you can look at Eureka and see that there are people who enjoy it; there's even a freaking Discord with tons of people in it. It's not to say the content's for everyone, but realize that Blue Mage may not be for everyone either. Let alone, if it gets good reception upon release in some form or another, we'll more than likely see new content for it; if it's not received well, then they'll more than likely try to make amendments the best they can just like they did with Pagos and Pyros.

4 - That depends on your perception. What is so right about RDM? The lore, the aesthetic, and many other things for that matter all add up to what RDM is. What comes to mind when you think of Blue Mage?

What's more, breaking traditional trends is certainly a thing, but in regards to Blue Mage you can't break it, otherwise it simply just becomes a Mage. If you're supposed to learn from Monsters, then do so. If you were to add Blue Mage to the DF and go into Sastasha, there's more than likely one thing that'll pop up in their current system(which they'll more than likely have regardless if they get converted): "Does the Blue Mage have X Monster Skill?"

That breaks their job in DF if they don't learn Monster Skills, and even moreso a conundrum if we try to impose DF Requirements on Blue Mage.

5 - Because Summoner was one of the jobs that was released during A Realm Reborn. They created the pet system for SCH and SMN both, and having to rework that entire system would be a pain in the ass. Blue Mage makes sense due to how traditionally it works; the only time we've seen it be different is in FFVIII, where you use items to learn Blue Magic for Quistis' Limit Break action.

There's also the consideration that Yoshida's Development Team more than likely has higher priorities to bring new experiences rather than try and create new content on a job that already has its job fantasy going for it right now. It'd make sense if they did it in the next expansion to spread out on the pet system(if they ever manage to get it to respond properly), but it just doesn't seem like a proper realization right now.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I don't think they were complaining about learning spells. Sounded more that they were saying the argument that "player doesnt have X spell so they will be kicked" as a reason to limit blu is dumb. That most people that wanted blu would actually put in the time to learn their spells instead of trying to skate by.

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I mean, that'd typically be what it becomes if we introduce Blue Mage to DF out the gate and try to impose limitations. There's also this question: "What effect will Blue Mage have on Duty Finder Dungeons? Will it make them go by too fast? Will it make them slog through it?"

If it goes by too fast, then we can easily say that Blue Mage's skills are overtuned for Dungeons. If it goes too slow due to its kit, then it'd be like you're doing a 3-man dungeon party with a Tank, Healer, and DPS with one straggler who's doing minimal damage.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I mean, that'd typically be what it becomes if we introduce Blue Mage to DF out the gate and try to impose limitations. There's also this question: "What effect will Blue Mage have on Duty Finder Dungeons? Will it make them go by too fast? Will it make them slog through it?"

If it goes by too fast, then we can easily say that Blue Mage's skills are overtuned for Dungeons. If it goes too slow due to its kit, then it'd be like you're doing a 3-man dungeon party with a Tank, Healer, and DPS with one straggler who's doing minimal damage.

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Hmmm, not sure why you are replying to me to say these things. I was just trying to clarify what the other poster was saying. Well what I thought they were trying to say.

I think this whole DF argument is silly. If people really have such a phobia about this then make PF groups. I'm not unsympathetic to people with fear of whatever but from my point of view, someone with multiple sclerosis and an anxiety disorder with panic attacks that can make my MS act up even more, the PF is a solution. It's not the best solution I'd admit but they could restrict queuing up until you have learned "x,y, and z spells" at various level ranges or do achievements for a level range "learn all level 21-25 spells". We don't know if there are level requirements to learn spells yet but would it be awful if they did?

As for the rest of your post, they could do this thing called balancing. Maybe, just maybe, that would work.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Hmmm, not sure why you are replying to me to say these things. I was just trying to clarify what the other poster was saying. Well what I thought they were trying to say.

I think this whole DF argument is silly. If people really have such a phobia about this then make PF groups. I'm not unsympathetic to people with fear of whatever but from my point of view, someone with multiple sclerosis and an anxiety disorder with panic attacks that can make my MS act up even more, the PF is a solution. It's not the best solution I'd admit but they could restrict queuing up until you have learned "x,y, and z spells" at various level ranges or do achievements for a level range "learn all level 21-25 spells". We don't know if there are level requirements to learn spells yet but would it be awful if they did?

As for the rest of your post, they could do this thing called balancing. Maybe, just maybe, that would work.

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The problem is the class is designed towards grinding creature X for a while to learn its monster skill, if BLU goes into DF they would ask 3 other people to slow down to "help" them obtain a certain skill. And in ARR content you pretty much just melt mobs mind. Hence it can be both frustrating for the party and BLU, even going to the point of just leaving after the required monsters are all dead or asking to be kicked. This would happen, people want it all the "fast" way. It would simply create unnecessary drama and taxation's on players that just want to get their roulette done, which can all be avoided by locking the BLU mage out of dungeon finder and forcing them into PF so people know what they are going to join for.

And lvl 50 max BLU mage in DF would simply become like a swarm of locusts, you'd rarely get an instance from SB or HW.

The entire argument of "its my favorite class, I always dreamed of going into DF with it and raid endgame with my friends"... is just ugh, please, its free content you are receiving. Take it, enjoy it, don't act like the sky is falling. There is no need to compromise at this point since you don't know how it will play out.

There will be players who will enjoy this content even if it never catches up to max level. Just like with Eureka. If this kind of content doesn't appeal to you, well honestly try something different or go play BLU in a previous installment of the FF series where it was as you envisioned it to be.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

The entire argument of "its my favorite class, I always dreamed of going into DF with it and raid endgame with my friends"... is just ugh, please, its free content you are receiving. Take it, enjoy it, don't act like the sky is falling. There is no need to compromise at this point since you don't know how it will play out.

There will be players who will enjoy this content even if it never catches up to max level. Just like with Eureka. If this kind of content doesn't appeal to you, well honestly try something different or go play BLU in a previous installment of the FF series where it was as you envisioned it to be.

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In a subscription game, nothing is free content.

This argument doesn't fly.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

The problem is the class is designed towards grinding creature X for a while to learn its monster skill, if BLU goes into DF they would ask 3 other people to slow down to "help" them obtain a certain skill. And in ARR content you pretty much just melt mobs mind. Hence it can be both frustrating for the party and BLU, even going to the point of just leaving after the required monsters are all dead or asking to be kicked. This would happen, people want it all the "fast" way. It would simply create unnecessary drama and taxation's on players that just want to get their roulette done, which can all be avoided by locking the BLU mage out of dungeon finder and forcing them into PF so people know what they are going to join for.

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So it's better for SE to kick a blu player instead of it being up to the party? So what if the blu player states they are trying to learn a spell. Most enemies wont melt that fast that they wont be able to get at least one move off. Maybe the blu player does learn the spell and it can be like how it was on XI when you learned something while in a party and the others tell you "that's awesome congrats!". The only way your point makes some sense to me is like how some players ask in older ARR dungeons to go after chests that are not on the main path. Should we remove those or just prevent matchmaking for those dungeons because of those chests? Or should we say that people should try to be adults and come to an agreement or just deal with it if they can't? I"ve been in plenty of parties where those of us that wanted the chests went back and eventually got to them.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

And lvl 50 max BLU mage in DF would simply become like a swarm of locusts, you'd rarely get an instance from SB or HW.

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So, should we just take out all instanced content out of the game because queues might be too long? What is this!? A valid point for ants!? It's so so small.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

The entire argument of "its my favorite class, I always dreamed of going into DF with it and raid endgame with my friends"... is just ugh, please, its free content you are receiving. Take it, enjoy it, don't act like the sky is falling. There is no need to compromise at this point since you don't know how it will play out.

There will be players who will enjoy this content even if it never catches up to max level. Just like with Eureka. If this kind of content doesn't appeal to you, well honestly try something different or go play BLU in a previous installment of the FF series where it was as you envisioned it to be.

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I'ts not free content. All of us are paying for the content. It is/was very important to some of us to be able to main blue mage in the entire game. Your main job is your chosen tool in how you interact with the game so yeah it's a big deal to people on my side. And right now is the perfect time to give feed back on the aspect of "not meant for group play" aspect of limited jobs. We don't have to test it or see what kind of content SE will add UNLESS it's "we are going to make it a full job with the data we get from you all testing the job like this."

"If this kind of content doesn't appeal to you" That sounds like an argument that could have been used against people saying the game has grown stale without something like this. Same with "go play BLU in a previous installment" for people that ONLY want this version. Barely anyone on my side is asking for the "Carnival/FFV blue mage" and the content it's tied to be removed. SE absolutely should be trying to get to a middle ground. Most players are more than likely neutral on the whole thing. They will play the blu content and then put it down till there's an update for it. Then for us that are vocal about it, things seem pretty 50/50 split? You think SE will continue to add content to blu and work on other limited jobs if most players just play it as the side game that it is and then even more are boycotting/unsubbing over it? You rather bet on this working and potentially it being dumped like Diadem instead of supporting a path to some middle ground?

It’s not black and white. You are sitting here saying it’s either your way of getting a middle ground and getting your way or blindly accepting it for what it is. That’s not what we are saying. We are saying experience it. Like what do you not get about this?

Oh this is the perfect time. No it’s not. You have very little information, you have no clue what the intent is for the future. You are basing an entire argument on an emotional response and fear of a worst case scenario.

But hey you know what if you are this upset over a game company trying to innovate and grow their product in new ways even briefly feel free to do what you feel you must. Set the forums on fire, unsub. Do what you got to do. I’m not going to completely write off a game for trying something different. If I like it I’ll let the dev team know. If I don’t like it. I’ll let the dev team know. When I have verifiable facts and personal experience

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

You have very little information, you have no clue what the intent is for the future.

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https://i.imgur.com/2KkkZeN.png
This is all the information I need to be upset.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

https://i.imgur.com/2KkkZeN.png
This is all the information I need to be upset.

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Exactly this. Experiencing the blu content won't change our minds on this issue. Perhaps the info and slides were wrong or this is a beta phase but that's about all of us that are upset see in the "wait and see" argument. I've asked for people that say this to color it in for us that "don't understand" the point of waiting as if something will blow us away enough to give up on the thought of having blu as our main in the full game. They haven't produced anything yet. /shrug

And before anyone comes in saying "well you're just assuming the worse etc etc", I've already said that maybe it was a bad presentation or they just didn't announce it as a "beta" for whatever reason. They should get going with the damage control if that's the case then.

I'm going to point out something.. yet again. We were not going to get blue mage. Period. There have been several interviews done about blue mage where Yoshi P has stated they were never sure how to implement it and it was extremely unlikely we were ever going to get it.

They strove hard to find a way to provide the blue mage experience for us. Even in this "limited job" capacity. Giving us new type of content (something we've been asking for), new ways to prog (something else we've been asking for) showing that they have interest in expanding the open world content (oh wait.. something else we've been asking for) a job we were never supposed to have in the way the dev teams envisioned giving it to us. (for better or worse it's happening. don't like it.. do the same as many in this community told machinists when they tried setting these forums on fire with problems with their job. Go play something else.), opening the door the dev team had previous shut on other jobs (puppet master and beast tamer), trying to be more original and experimental with the stuff they do (once again something this community has begged them to do) all while giving it a true final fantasy feel. and... "nope it's garbage, we hate it because we can't raid with it." so. yea

As for me saying wait and see. It was never about the job blowing you away. It was about having FACT and EXPERIENCE with the content to actually fill in and utilize as constructive criticism to further your original goal. It's common bloody sense. You can make up your mind but making the argument that "this would be the easiest job in the world to balance in end game." is woefully underinformed and speculative at best. Because you don't know how it functions in this game now. You don't know how the skills in this game are going to function right now. What I'm saying what I've been saying. Get that information then if you want to write a document, post on forums about how it could easily be balanced in raid with the skills and abilities it has in the game with minor changes.. DO IT. Hell I'll support you even. I'll read your document give you feedback on your ideas to help tweak it if needed or just outright tell the dev team this is a good idea they should really look into this. That's all. Not saying let it change your mind. Be open to the possibility of some aspects of blue mage being good but by in large stay true to your beliefs just come back with REASON based arguments and facts based on YOUR own experience with the job to support your side! It's easy to say you hate something before you even try it but if you play it and can say.. "Okay here's what they did well, here's the abilities I like, here's the abilities I think are over powered or underpowered, here's the concepts you put in that were okay or could be better with some tweaks, and here's what I didn't like and I didn't think worked and my ideas for possible solutions." you'd get a lot further and a lot less pushback.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

FFXIV is an MMORPG. So why is BLU being restricted from joining mainstream content and pushed as "solo-content" orientated? If I wanted to play an extensive solo-player experience with collecting blue magic, the previous offline titles exist for that purpose.

"BLU has to have certain skills, and it'd be no fun if they didn't work against raid bosses!"

You know what's even less fun? Not being able to participate in said raids to begin with. It isn't worth having those skills if those skills are the reason we are being "limited." No one in their right mind had the expectation that we needed lvl5 death, and that we had to make it work on the latest raid bosses.

"But if BLU is accepted and doesn't have the skills they're expected to have, they'll be kicked :( "

Is it so hard to implement a requirement for number of skills BLU must have in order to enter an instance? A rebuttal to this suggestion would entail that perhaps a certain BLU might only have buff/support spells, and not enough DPS skills. To that I say "classify spells for their function and specify a number of DPS-oriented spells needed to enter roulette."

People who care enough to go into Savage are the same ones who will care enough to get their "core skills" to perform correctly. Why are we killing the opportunity for your consumer base in order to appease a strawman argument of a bad player?

People wanted BLU in this game. People, like myself, would have been more than happy with simple job quests making us go on some silly hunt to "learn" skills if it meant being streamlined into the general population.

I can even accept grinding in the overworld like we're in some cheap pay-to-win Korean MMO, I can even accept being forced to learn skills on an RNG basis and hunting monsters for them, but allow us the option to play with everyone else in the content everyone is doing! Because after all, this is not a solo game-- This is an MMORPG.

SE, I implore you to reconsider.

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Why not start it at level 1 so the playerbase can learn to play the character and then learn the required skills.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

In a subscription game, nothing is free content.

This argument doesn't fly.

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You pay for access to the servers, not the content. If you don't pay for a subscription, the content will still get released.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

So it's better for SE to kick a blu player instead of it being up to the party? So what if the blu player states they are trying to learn a spell. Most enemies wont melt that fast that they wont be able to get at least one move off. Maybe the blu player does learn the spell and it can be like how it was on XI when you learned something while in a party and the others tell you "that's awesome congrats!".

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The way it was explained in the live letter, the enemy has to use the ability first.
So if it gets stunned/silenced(?) or just dies before the mob can use the ability, you won't be able to have a chance at learning the ability.

The BLU player however can state all he wants. And if I have time I may take the time to help him out and slowly wait for the mob to use the specific ability before killing it. However its not up to the BLU player to dictate where the party should go just because he is BLU and needs to learn a skill. Maybe he needs a very specific enemy that is in a corner of the dungeon where we don't have to go.
And by opening DF to BLU players you will come to said problem over and over again, do we help the BLU or not. And I feel players shouldn't be obliged to help the BLU players who are skill hunting, the players are just there for the rewards/exp/MSQ.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

The only way your point makes some sense to me is like how some players ask in older ARR dungeons to go after chests that are not on the main path. Should we remove those or just prevent matchmaking for those dungeons because of those chests? Or should we say that people should try to be adults and come to an agreement or just deal with it if they can't? I"ve been in plenty of parties where those of us that wanted the chests went back and eventually got to them.

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That is cool, you can do it after the dungeon is complete and the players who want to leave can. But you shouldn't feel entitled that players have to help the BLU.

The problem however still is, I have seen the mentality over and over again that players get what they need out of a place and then just leave. Think dog/bird/horse farming.

I mean, imagen you come to the mobs that the BLU needs, one person doesn't speak English so he didn't understand what the BLU was asking for. Mob gets killed, BLU throws a tantrum and he votes to kick the guy who is clueless on what he may have done wrong. And after the guy gets kicked, the BLU leaves because he can't be bothered and might as well re-queue.

An extreme example perhaps, but I see these examples in different scenario's at least once a week.

So why shouldn't SE try to think of a solution to address this toxic behavior? Especially because party communication is so critical to the BLU skills, might as well just let them pf where they can party up with the people THEY agreed to queue with.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

So, should we just take out all instanced content out of the game because queues might be too long? What is this!? A valid point for ants!? It's so so small.

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No but it will be every run the same thing "Hi can you guys help me with mob X, kthx"
And in addition its not about queue's being to long. Its about the running the same instances over and over again. Some like their diversity, its not a case of a new class just using dungeons to level up. Its about a class hunting for skills over and over again in low level content which may not be attractive to run.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I'ts not free content. All of us are paying for the content. It is/was very important to some of us to be able to main blue mage in the entire game. Your main job is your chosen tool in how you interact with the game so yeah it's a big deal to people on my side. And right now is the perfect time to give feed back on the aspect of "not meant for group play" aspect of limited jobs. We don't have to test it or see what kind of content SE will add UNLESS it's "we are going to make it a full job with the data we get from you all testing the job like this."

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You don't pay for the content, you pay to access the content. You paying or not for your sub doesn't mean the content will be released or not.

The game never launched with BLU as a Job, so it was just you guys wishing for it to happen, but, it didn't happen as you desired it to be. Now you are throwing a tantrum without even trying it out first. Completely forgetting about the players who have been advocating for classes that are true to their lore/design. And not a shadow of what they once were. For some players the solo class seem to be a very fun thing to try out.

Personally I enjoy crafting, however I can't use my crafters either to run the MSQ or DF.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

"If this kind of content doesn't appeal to you" That sounds like an argument that could have been used against people saying the game has grown stale without something like this. Same with "go play BLU in a previous installment" for people that ONLY want this version. Barely anyone on my side is asking for the "Carnival/FFV blue mage" and the content it's tied to be removed. SE absolutely should be trying to get to a middle ground. Most players are more than likely neutral on the whole thing. They will play the blu content and then put it down till there's an update for it. Then for us that are vocal about it, things seem pretty 50/50 split? You think SE will continue to add content to blu and work on other limited jobs if most players just play it as the side game that it is and then even more are boycotting/unsubbing over it? You rather bet on this working and potentially it being dumped like Diadem instead of supporting a path to some middle ground?

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But you don't want a middle ground. You want to compromise on the FFV BLU mage design by asking it to be balanced for dungeons/raids with a party.

I'm quite sure that SE continues what they started with. Look at Eureka, 4th installment and the end of the relic weapon is in sight. While it was unpopular to some, it was also enjoyed by others. And that is fine, not everyone has to like all content. There is alot to do in FFXIV. Diadem wasn't enjoyable, but that can happen, they received the feedback and they adjusted things. Wasn't exactly spot on but the second installment was less of a pain then the first.

But again, you don't want a middle ground, because its either to stick true to the design of FFV or get a class like the SMN. And you would prefer the later is what I'm getting.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

You pay for access to the servers, not the content. If you don't pay for a subscription, the content will still get released.

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Well look at that, mates, turns out DLC isn't something you pay for because -it still gets released-.

You aren't paying for content, you're paying for -access- to that content!

What a !@#%ing visionary.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Well look at that, mates, turns out DLC isn't something you pay for because -it still gets released-.

You aren't paying for content, you're paying for -access- to that content!

What a !@#%ing visionary.

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Yup, you pay for the DLC, but BLU isn't a part of the DLC.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

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I agreed with a lot of what you said about the party interaction stuff but really disagree with it being SE's place to solve if it's not a ToS violation. People should just grow up and deal or move on and queue again if they can't.

On the diversity in doing content, I would say that SE is doing the opposite with these limitations. Shouldn't it be up to us if we want to run dungeons or go farm open world mobs? Diversity in choices are better.

Now onto the rest of your post. There is a middle ground that most on my side are asking SE to pursue. We don't want the people that are excited to lose this content or to even have it delays. We want SE to work on a full version of the job and put it in the game WHEN it's ready. So yes I want "XIV blu" like how we have "XIV smn". That's not a bad thing and it's an even better thing if we can get that AND the open world/side content. My side would just have to wait.

For the whole "paying for dlc" bit in the previous couple of posts, everyone that bought Stormblood has paid for it. I'm going to assume that what you meant in "but BLU isn't a part of the DLC" is that it's not part of Shadowbringers. It's not part of that expac but is is part of the current expac. So everyone that bought Stormblood did pay for blue mage.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

Yup, you pay for the DLC, but BLU isn't a part of the DLC.

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Let me know how much of that content you get to play once that sub stops.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I agreed with a lot of what you said about the party interaction stuff but really disagree with it being SE's place to solve if it's not a ToS violation. People should just grow up and deal and move on and queue again if they can't.

On the diversity in doing content, I would say that SE is doing the opposite with these limitations. Shouldn't it be up to us if we want to run dungeons or go farm open world mobs? Diversity in choices are better.

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I agree with you that people should grow up and deal with it.
However it is in ToS, vague as it may be.

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

So in order not to interfere with the main reason why people go into DF and for it not to become a big ongoing discussion of who is in the right, they remove the ability from using DF for BLU. That includes the potential kicking of BLU or any who dare to screw up their attempt at gaining an ability from a mob.
They allow you however to go with a PF group so you can agree beforehand on what the objective off the run will be.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Now onto the rest of your post. There is a middle ground that most on my side are asking SE to pursue. We don't want the people that are excited to lose this content or to even have it delays. We want SE to work on a full version of the job and put it in the game WHEN it's ready. So yes I want "XIV blu" like how we have "XIV smn". That's not a bad thing and it's an even better thing if we can get that AND the open world/side content. My side would just have to wait.

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But again, you are asking them to throw away the design that people have requested from SE for classes such as SMN, just to get the design you desire. Its not about the open world content, its about the skills themselves.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

For the whole "paying for dlc" bit in the previous couple of posts, everyone that bought Stormblood has paid for it. You're right that blue mage isn't part of Shadowbringers but you're wrong to say we haven't already paid for blue mage.

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Well, you buy access to the game, this is also in the ToS. You do not own anything of the content that is in game. You buy access to it. Never was it also once mentioned at the start of SB that it would be part of it, this is just content that they thought might be a nice addition to the game. So they gave it to us.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let me know how much of that content you get to play once that sub stops.

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You can't. Because you will lose access to the servers. Duh.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

You can't. Because you will lose access to the servers. Duh.

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So it's not free then? Because you actually do have access to FF14 without a sub. You -have access to the servers-.

But not the content.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

So it's not free then? Because you actually do have access to FF14 without a sub. You -have access to the servers-.

But not the content.

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I'm sorry what?

All content is owned by SE. You pay to access the content. Since when... can you play FFXIV without a sub?

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Originally Posted by Mithia

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That part of the ToS sounds more like harassing instead of "this person didn't do what I wanted to do in the dungeon". It's pretty vague like you said but I don't think it would apply to this issue unless it was something like the tank/person with the most hate kiting around the mob the blu is trying to learn a spell from so that they are unable to even have a chance at learning the spell.

Did I ask them to throw away requests? I'm all for there being other forms of content. Give every job something. Let smn's actually play up the traditional summoner fantasy. Go look at the BST thread in this part of the forums and you will see I gave my idea for side content for that job if it's added. This goes back to my point that we SHOULD be asking for all of these kinds of things and we SHOULD be patient if the devs have to slow down the patch cycle or the content just takes longer to roll out.

I'll give you the point on the last one but I think it's really coming down to wording. I don't think I'm wrong because our money spent on expacs and subs is being used to make this content. So I'd say neither of us are wrong but you take the point with blu never being marketed as part of SB before we bought it.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

First and foremost Blue Mage is not the disaster most people seem to fear it is.

It is most importantly a genius marketing decision, and I am prepared to defend this. Yes, blue mage has been one of the most highly requested jobs in this game. It had to be released. One of the more highly requested features of this game has been more content that can be solo’ed as well as content that is different so people aren’t relegated to either high end raiding or relic grinds.

In return square gives us... blue mage. A job starting at level one with a level cap of 50, and a grind that can mostly be done alone for enemy skills, with a party for others. And the Masked Carnivale as a way to showcase and learn and enjoy. Yes, it is sad that we can’t use blue mage how we would like as a fully implemented and balanced job for end game content. The lvl 5 death argument is a weak one at best, but it also has validity. Lvl 5 death is not the only skill that could easily break an end game raid or dungeon or trial, mighty guard itself is a dangerous skill to have in that kind of content.

As is white wind, or any number of skills, bad breath is another good example. They have made the promise to continue to develop content for the blue mage, and given that with the trust system, the world visit system, and blue mage they seem to be focused on making this game a bit more solo player friendly this sort of concept makes sense as a way to appeal to a much broader audience and grow the game in a really special way. It’s a smart decision to use such an iconic job for this content because those ff fans who have not started 14 but love blue mage can be coaxed into this game because it is now offering a traditional blue mage in its own content. Making it a 2.0 job is also smart because it allows people to try the content fall in love with the game and branch out to the other features.

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^this
...
Blue Mage will play like a Rdm in solo content, with a similar feeling as the "logos" system from Pyros / Eureka

"logos": as in unlocking may moves from multiple classes (dps, healer, tanks) thru battles / enemies, ...than deciding which of those are best for the situation atm

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

^this
...
Blue Mage will play like a Rdm in solo content, with a similar feeling as the "logos" system from Pyros / Eureka

"logos": as in unlocking may moves from multiple classes (dps, healer, tanks) thru battles / enemies, ...than deciding which of those are best for the situation atm

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We aren't arguing with how it plays just the announced restrictions.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

That part of the ToS sounds more like harassing instead of "this person didn't do what I wanted to do in the dungeon". It's pretty vague like you said but I don't think it would apply to this issue unless it was something like the tank/person with the most hate kiting around the mob the blu is trying to learn a spell from so that they are unable to even have a chance at learning the spell.

Did I ask them to throw away requests? I'm all for there being other forms of content. Give every job something. Let smn's actually play up the traditional summoner fantasy. Go look at the BST thread in this part of the forums and you will see I gave my idea for side content for that job if it's added. This goes back to my point that we SHOULD be asking for all of these kinds of things and we SHOULD be patient if the devs have to slow down the patch cycle or the content just takes longer to roll out.

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Sorry for the late reply, I was a bit occupied.

The problem is that things escalate rapidly, there are the good and the bad with everything however. But the example you gave is exactly a prime example of what salt can do with a person. If you have visited Pyros recently, it is a hobby of people who didn't get a bunny to kill the bunnies of people who did get one.

Since from what I understood from the panel in the Q&A, it seems that only one BLU can learn said spell. If he has learned it it can't be learned anymore from the same mob. This may of course be me misunderstanding what was said or if something got lost in translation. But it was suggested that people would make a PF to learn the ability from a trial like Shiva, and then it would be like people would go on a different job to help the BLU and then switch around so everyone would be able to get the spell.

So if its only one BLU, imagen the salt possibilities.

And ofcourse we are giving them the funds to pay for the development of the content, but its not like we are buying the content either. I know its a bit weird, but in truth you just upgrade your license every time an expansion hits to access more content and then you extend it with a subscription. In the long run this point is kind of moot to discuss any further.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

Sorry for the late reply, I was a bit occupied.

The problem is that things escalate rapidly, there are the good and the bad with everything however. But the example you gave is exactly a prime example of what salt can do with a person. If you have visited Pyros recently, it is a hobby of people who didn't get a bunny to kill the bunnies of people who did get one.

Since from what I understood from the panel in the Q&A, it seems that only one BLU can learn said spell. If he has learned it it can't be learned anymore from the same mob. This may of course be me misunderstanding what was said or if something got lost in translation. But it was suggested that people would make a PF to learn the ability from a trial like Shiva, and then it would be like people would go on a different job to help the BLU and then switch around so everyone would be able to get the spell.

So if its only one BLU, imagen the salt possibilities.

And ofcourse we are giving them the funds to pay for the development of the content, but its not like we are buying the content either. I know its a bit weird, but in truth you just upgrade your license every time an expansion hits to access more content and then you extend it with a subscription. In the long run this point is kind of moot to discuss any further.

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Things can escalate quickly but is the solution to just lock people out of matchmaking? They could just beef up the punishments for ToS violations to have an even larger deterrent. I'm really against them going beyond things in the ToS so I'm in favor of a player driven solution. That could be something ugly like "player shaming" but I would prefer something like SE giving us cross world linkshells that have a HUGE cap on how many can be in. Something like ten thousand or more. Then put a DF option in the settings "only match with community members". Then people that have worries with using matchmaking could only be matched with people in their communities they have chosen to be in.

Oh yeah, if it was only one blue that could learn a spell off a mob at a time it would be a catastrophe. I know on XI it was just a random chance per blue mage with no cap. I'm thinking you misunderstood during the live letter. As for that Shiva example, pretty sure they meant people taking turns hoping on their level 70s to solo/duo the primals in the event if they weren't able to complete the fight as an all blu party.

You worded it better but that was what I was trying to get at. We are providing the funding to make the content by buying access to the product instead of straight up buying the product. It all comes down to the wording like I said and you got a lot closer to it than I did. lol

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Things can escalate quickly but is the solution to just lock people out of matchmaking? They could just beef up the punishments for ToS violations to have an even larger deterrent. I'm really against them going beyond things in the ToS so I'm in favor of a player driven solution. That could be something ugly like "player shaming" but I would prefer something like SE giving us cross world linkshells that have a HUGE cap on how many can be in. Something like ten thousand or more. Then put a DF option in the settings "only match with community members". Then people that have worries with using matchmaking could only be matched with people in their communities they have chosen to be in.

Oh yeah, if it was only one blue that could learn a spell off a mob at a time it would be a catastrophe. I know on XI it was just a random chance per blue mage with no cap. I'm thinking you misunderstood during the live letter. As for that Shiva example, pretty sure they meant people taking turns hoping on their level 70s to solo/duo the primals in the event if they weren't able to complete the fight as an all blu party.

You worded it better but that was what I was trying to get at. We are providing the funding to make the content by buying access to the product instead of straight up buying the product. It all comes down to the wording like I said and you got a lot closer to it than I did. lol

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-points to gil sellers- yes because they do so well dealing with those ToS violations, or the RMTs running wild for clearing content just sitting in their duty finder advertising their services. So in order to facilitate blue mage we need to come up with an entirely new support system for duty finder, completely rework the CWLS to hold a massive amount of people and increase server load by who knows how much. Just to support blue mage. That's way more work then it's worth. We have very little say on what content comes out or how it comes out because we do pay for the service. And yes while our subs and our purchases off mog station help fund this game. This is not a crowd sourced game. The Dev Team and SE holds all the calls in how they spend that money and what content they want to create. While they try to appease us players they do not have to. They can make whatever they like. locking out of roulettes and matchmaking with the current learn system makes sense. for better or worse it is the most logical decision to make to avoid a huge number of potential problems.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

We aren't arguing with how it plays just the announced restrictions.

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how it plays is the reason for the restrictions...

otherwise Blue Mage wouldn't play as intended (damn near impossible) but be allowed in regular content

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

how it plays is the reason for the restrictions...

otherwise Blue Mage wouldn't play as intended (damn near impossible) but be allowed in regular content

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There are definitely ways to have made blu as it is right now without the unreasonable restriction.

Unlock the job for the full game after finishing the Carnival, achievements for learning spells within a level range that unlock matchmaking for those levels, and bring back level break quests from XI for blue mage that require certain spells before you can do the quest. The npc(s) wouldn't even have to tell you exactly what the spells are. "Hmm, you still need to study leafkin in the northshroud, the insects in central thanalan, and the crustaceans in lower la noscea" would work.

The only Restriction I don't like is Deep Dungeons and the Level set at 50. besides that it's ok that we can't PVP. we could go back and forth on Duty Finder all day but we will Live.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Things can escalate quickly but is the solution to just lock people out of matchmaking? They could just beef up the punishments for ToS violations to have an even larger deterrent. I'm really against them going beyond things in the ToS so I'm in favor of a player driven solution. That could be something ugly like "player shaming" but I would prefer something like SE giving us cross world linkshells that have a HUGE cap on how many can be in. Something like ten thousand or more. Then put a DF option in the settings "only match with community members". Then people that have worries with using matchmaking could only be matched with people in their communities they have chosen to be in.

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The problem with player solutions is that they always bottle down to naming and shaming. There is little else you can do because you don't have the power of removal or ban or even a discussion. A big channel works nice in theory, but there are about 5000 players on one server, so how big must this linkshell become to accommodate all players? And some players would be out of the loop of this aswell since not everyone visits the forums/reddit/discord etc. However I'm sure there will be a dedicated BLU discord popping up out there...

However we have to see it from SE their perspective aswell, they are all for players working together and sharing information, but they loath player shaming/bashing (such as that you can't link ACT in chat). So its really simple, they limit you on DF because there is no clear leader in said groups and people join DF for exp/tokens/MSQ. So there is no right or wrong when a player wants a specific thing from said dungeon, but neither did people sign up to accommodate someone else their needs. But organised groups do not have that problem because the leader creates the group with a specific goal in mind, be it loot/logs/grind a specific boss or mob.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Oh yeah, if it was only one blue that could learn a spell off a mob at a time it would be a catastrophe. I know on XI it was just a random chance per blue mage with no cap. I'm thinking you misunderstood during the live letter. As for that Shiva example, pretty sure they meant people taking turns hoping on their level 70s to solo/duo the primals in the event if they weren't able to complete the fight as an all blu party.

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Well its hard to say, I hope I'm wrong but we can't be to sure either. Hence it would be prudent to wait for the release of BLU so we can give feedback on what is actually there and not what is speculated right now.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You worded it better but that was what I was trying to get at. We are providing the funding to make the content by buying access to the product instead of straight up buying the product. It all comes down to the wording like I said and you got a lot closer to it than I did. lol

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Sure we are providing the funds, but think of it like you are buying an album from a musical artist. You won't dictate either what should be in it or not... you let them be creative and then you judge if you continue to support them or not.

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Originally Posted by Huntrss

The only Restriction I don't like is Deep Dungeons and the Level set at 50. besides that it's ok that we can't PVP. we could go back and forth on Duty Finder all day but we will Live.

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Its normal they would put a limitation on Deep Dungeons for now, there is prestige in running it solo. BLU would just crush that. That and we are limited to 50, DD's go up to 60 or 70.
Regarding the limitation on levels, well the content currently isn't designed for BLU. I don't think it would be as simple as just changing a line of code to make the boss invulnerable to certain spells. There could be some serious bugs that come with it. Its not worth the risk, just let them update it all with 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

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Agreed with you a lot so just going to hit on a few things.

I'm not fond of any solution to this problem besides "if they are worried about matchmaking then use PF". That's really SE should tell people instead of locking the rest of us out of DF. I was trying to think of player driven solutions so thought the communities thing could work. I believe I said something like 10k would be a good idea and I don't mean that it would just a free for all chat. Be something more like joining a discord server with chat channels that are set up by the owner/mods. Some players will always be out of the loop but can't have that limit design.

Everything you said in that second paragraph is fine besides that I don't think it's SE place to solve. It's as you said, there is no true leader in DF that dictates what everyone has to do. If people have an issue with any given group then they should work it out, put up with it, or leave and try again or form a premade party.

There is definitely no point on speculating on the job's mechanics like you said until there's more info. Maybe it has no native traits and it depends on which spells you set like it did on XI. I will disagree that we have to wait to voice our disappointment that the proposed limitations are fine or have the potential to be okay depending on the Carnival content. People on my side will always want to have the job function in the full game.

No arguments on the album analogy.

Again, I agree with you. Just upping the level cap won't work and you gave some good reasons why. The design of blu won't be easily changed. That's why a lot on my side have stated that we are fine waiting even if it takes till the 6.0 expac.

Do want to thank you for the calm debate. Community needs more like you. Maybe we can get to the middle ground eventually.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

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I don't think the game should be designed towards the ones who are willing to be part of a community, its not proper design and you'd be surprised how many people can be out of the loop with things. One of the main reasons why modern MMO's thrive is because it caters towards the little man, it will create systems such as DF, PF, tutorials, the pop up for when you enter a zone that you still lack an achievement there and much more. If a player is out of the loop he will hit a wall, walls are frustrating. A frustrated player will unsub in the end if he can't overcome that wall. Hence the game is designed to accommodate all players and everything can be easily accessed.

The problem with leaving a DF is that you immediately get punished for it with a 30 minute lockout. People generally don't want this, hence they want to either get kicked or vote for an abandon. Having people work it out sounds nice in theory and I'd like to see this happen aswell. However I've often seen a question asked or also asked a question myself, and the usual responses are either nothing, or one guy trying to be helpful while others are meme'ing.

And then it makes you wonder why people can't be adults but then you realize that its a game for children in the end...

In addition you get compensated for not being able to use DF with exp bonuses in the outside world, where you will be for the majority of times to get your skills. So either way this is fine and if you really want to use DF with your friends you'll just have to go on a different job for now.


I do enjoy this discussion aswell, who knows maybe we will find one!

I still would rather not have the class than it being added as is. That goes for all limited jobs. They are paid to figure this kind of stuff out and make it work in their current system.

Ya thy can balance it if thy put time into it