Can we discuss how abusive the GM department is when it comes to 'Grief Tactics'? A

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Originally Posted by Spiroth

You can't judge a rotation without a parser, because the other person can claim that his rotation style is better.
Constant deaths by being hit by mechanics is something else. But if he isn't being hit by mechanics you can't kick him for underperforming.

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As said before different play style is a valid reason to vote dismiss someone.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

I was being serious. People who did the work to spawn a S rank did not have to call out the S rank and let other people participate in the kill. GM's should not be punishing the spawners when they reset a S rank when a early puller complains, especially when the early puller would not of even been there to pull early had the spawners not called out the hunt. So spawners resetting a S rank should count as different playstyles and be allowed.

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This is about duties though, not hunts. They have already said that open world monsters are fair game for whoever attacks it, and intentionally disrupting people killing an open world mob is punishable. This is why I said before you have to be careful with how you state your intent in chat.

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Originally Posted by Spiroth

You can't judge a rotation without a parser, because the other person can claim that his rotation style is better.
Constant deaths by being hit by mechanics is something else. But if he isn't being hit by mechanics you can't kick him for underperforming.

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"Difference of playstyle" is a nebulous term that basically allows people to kick whomever they want for whatever reason they want. I could legitimately kick you for having an ugly glamour and there is nothing you can do about it.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

"Difference of playstyle" is a nebulous term that basically allows people to kick whomever they want for whatever reason they want. I could legitimately kick you for having an ugly glamour and there is nothing you can do about it.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

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Yep, I could kick you for being a Dragoon main for example, or because you're a miqo'te female. Difference of playstyle is also used when the chat has no evidence as to why you were kicked, so if I silently kick you, it's a "difference in playstyle" (let's say I'm on Discord with a buddy and we use it to agree to kick you, there's no in-game evidence, thus "Difference in playstyle"). It's why it's useless trying to report someone for kick abuse, it will fall under that. Now if they're harassing or abusing you in-game, such as by calling you various sweary insults, then that's how you make the claim to the GMs.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm sure GMs really don't care about who spawned a S rank.

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Ok, and they shouldn't care if someone reset a S rank spawn too. Early pullers don't have a right to complain about resetting if they wouldn't even be there had spawners not spawned the s rank and called it out. To say they do is to say they have an entitlement to others peoples time and work.

"Waaaaah waaaaah Mr. GM! He reset a S rank I pulled early even though he spawned and called out the S rank so people like me could participate in and share credit too and I wouldn't even be here had they not called the s rank out!"

See how entitled that sounds? Now we talking salt from early pullers whining about s ranks being reset.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

Ok, and they shouldn't care if someone reset a S rank spawn too. Early pullers don't have a right to complain about resetting if they wouldn't even be there had spawners not spawned the s rank and called it out. To say they do is to say they have an entitlement to others peoples time and work.

"Waaaaah waaaaay Mr. GM! He reset a S rank I pulled early even though he spawned and called out the S rank so people like me could participate in and share credit too and I wouldn't even be here had they not called the s rank out!"

See how entitled that sounds?

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The difference here is that resetting a mob actually wipes out the credit that person has made to the rewards from said mob, thus they get the right to complain about you with no entitlement needed; it's literally how the game is programmed, on top of being the official stance of the GMs and as a result, reportable.

It's as I said it before. No one "owns" the mob when it spawns; if a group wants to share it with the community, then they have to deal with the fact there'll be early pullers. A simple case of help as many as you can and simply let it go if it gets early pulled; move onto spawning the next one.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

The difference here is that resetting a mob actually wipes out the credit that person has made to the rewards from said mob, thus they get the right to complain about you with no entitlement needed; it's literally how the game is programmed, on top of being the official stance of the GMs and as a result, reportable.

It's as I said it before. No one "owns" the mob when it spawns; if a group wants to share it with the community, then they have to deal with the fact there'll be early pullers. A simple case of help as many as you can and simply let it go if it gets early pulled; move onto spawning the next one.

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If the early puller credit is wiped, oh well. You won't see any sympathy from me. I guess is the solution is for the spawners to keep all s rank spawns a secret if you want to take that stance. Let's watch the salt flow from the wider community.
And just because it's GM stance now doesn't mean we can't petition to get that changed. We are the paying customers after all and rules and laws change all the time.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

If the early puller credit is wiped, oh well. You won't see any sympathy from me. I guess is the solution is for the spawners to keep all s rank spawns a secret if you want to take that stance. Let's watch the salt flow from the wider community.

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Their narrative however is there's no such thing as an early pull. If you think you can take it, then take it. Resetting however is against ToS as it's considered a griefing tactic. That's been SE's stance from the beginning, so I hope they do change it so that once someone pulls a hunt mob, no other parties can get any credit even if they do 99% of the damage. Like how all other open world mobs (outside of FATEs work). And if people get salty, then have YoshiP tell them to "git gud and get the hunts yourself."

EDIT: Perhaps they could make it so that once a hunt mob is pulled, it works like certain duty mobs where it says "This mob is a part of another person's duty" and won't let you attack it if you're not in their party, in order to avoid resetting to try and then claim the tag yourself.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Their narrative however is there's no such thing as an early pull. If you think you can take it, then take it. Resetting however is against ToS as it's considered a griefing tactic. That's been SE's stance from the beginning, so I hope they do change it so that once someone pulls a hunt mob, no other parties can get any credit even if they do 99% of the damage. Like how all other open world mobs (outside of FATEs work). And if people get salty, then have YoshiP tell them to "git gud and get the hunts yourself."

EDIT: Perhaps they could make it so that once a hunt mob is pulled, it works like certain duty mobs where it says "This mob is a part of another person's duty" and won't let you attack it if you're not in their party, in order to avoid resetting to try and then claim the tag yourself.

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SE may not recognize early pulling as a thing and not punish for it, but the community does recognize it as a thing so it is a thing.
SE won't take a stance about early pulling so they don't have a reason to punish those that do it. Does not mean the community can't recognize it as being a thing.

The funny fact: Why there is the reminder of abusing the kick vote system can be punished? Has this GM even read this?

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

If the early puller credit is wiped, oh well. You won't see any sympathy from me. I guess is the solution is for the spawners to keep all s rank spawns a secret if you want to take that stance. Let's watch the salt flow from the wider community.
And just because it's GM stance now doesn't mean we can't petition to get that changed. We are the paying customers after all and rules and laws change all the time.

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Keeping hunts a secret and doing them with your own party solo is pretty much how the developers intended for hunts to be done from the beginning, so have fun! It might even inspire the community to go hunt more on their own. But resetting a mob someone has pulled in general, not just with hunts falls under griefing, so I doubt they're going to make an exception purely for hunts.

And if they did, how would it even be administered? No matter how long you wait, it's always going to be an "early pull" for someone. Does the guy who was super late get to report for early pulling because he took 4 minutes to get there when everyone else took 1? Does every S rank that spawns need to have a GM present who'll declare when enough "time" has passed for people to pull? You'll find yourself a lot happier if you simply say "ehh, I missed this one, I'll just be quicker next time." it's what I do and I don't have a fiber of salt in my being towards hunts.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Keeping hunts a secret and doing them with your own party solo is pretty much how the developers intended for hunts to be done from the beginning, so have fun! It might even inspire the community to go hunt more on their own. But resetting a mob someone has pulled in general, not just with hunts falls under griefing, so I doubt they're going to make an exception purely for hunts.

And if they did, how would it even be administered? No matter how long you wait, it's always going to be an "early pull" for someone. Does the guy who was super late get to report for early pulling because he took 4 minutes to get there when everyone else took 1? Does every S rank that spawns need to have a GM present who'll declare when enough "time" has passed for people to pull? You'll find yourself a lot happier if you simply say "ehh, I missed this one, I'll just be quicker next time." it's what I do and I don't have a fiber of salt in my being towards hunts.

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You on the wrong subject. We aren't talking about punishing early pullers. We are talking about how GM should not punish those who reset. How would that get administered? By not punishing people who reset after someone else pulled early.
And just FYI, main hunt groups on my server who spawn 99% of the S ranks decided they would give 2 minutes and for the most part, people don't have a problem waiting 2 minutes before pulling and know they usually have 2 minutes to get to the hunt if they are responding to a callout. It's usually the same 2 or 3 people that responded to a callout that will pull early.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

You on the wrong subject. We aren't talking about punishing early pullers. We are talking about how GM should not punish those who reset.

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My 3rd sentence says resetting any mob someone else has pulled in this game can fall under griefing/disruption. This includes hunts as previous topics and previous GM posts have attested to. They're not gonna make an exception for hunts as their stance & the OP's post have shown. A better solution is to ask Square to redesign hunts so early pulling isn't an issue.

Unless of course, you want to make resetting mobs in general an unreportable offense, in which case I'll be the first to laugh when the next "kill strong mobs" esque unlock quest has people resetting mobs left and right by trolls who get a kick of it.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

If the early puller credit is wiped, oh well. You won't see any sympathy from me. I guess is the solution is for the spawners to keep all s rank spawns a secret if you want to take that stance. Let's watch the salt flow from the wider community.
And just because it's GM stance now doesn't mean we can't petition to get that changed. We are the paying customers after all and rules and laws change all the time.

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As others have said, the marks don't belong to anyone specifically. There's no logic in changing the current rules in this case.

The server community does have some control over things if it is willing to work together. People will hold off attacking if a mark is pulled early - let the puller spend some time soloing it to give others a chance to get there. Resetting might be against ToS but nothing says we have to attack just because we're present and someone else has pulled. As long as we're in a group and get in a hit before the mark dies, we get our credit. Let the early puller do most of the work if they're in such a rush they can't wait a reasonable amount of time.

The community has the ability to exclude known early pullers from linkshells that relay. It's hard to be an early puller when you're one of the last ones there because you were relying on someone else to manually let you know the target was up. Most wise up and realize they're missing out on more than they've gained.

It's not to say that groups need to wait an excessively long time. We usually allow 5 minutes between the initial relay and the pull for S ranks. That's plenty of time for the relay to spread and people to get to the mark even if they have an older machine with loading issues.

It's up to the realm community. The larger the community, the harder it will be to get people to cooperate but it is possible. If there is something that SE needs to do, it would be scale S marks based on the number of people present in the zone just so the older ones take a little time to die.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

My 3rd sentence says resetting any mob someone else has pulled in this game can fall under griefing/disruption. This includes hunts as previous topics and previous GM posts have attested to. They're not gonna make an exception for hunts as their stance & the OP's post have shown. A better solution is to ask Square to redesign hunts so early pulling isn't an issue.

Unless of course, you want to make resetting mobs in general an unreportable offense, in which case I'll be the first to laugh when the next "kill strong mobs" esque unlock quest has people resetting mobs left and right by trolls who get a kick of it.

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Rules and laws are not something that can never change. If enough players wanted that rule change, SE would change their stance on a rule. As an example, players used to get banned from these forums for talking about and linking parses. Now people are able to talk about parses without being banned. And I would love it if SE re-designed hunts so early pulling was not an issue and would prefer that but I see a less of a chance of that happening over GM changing their stance on hunt resetting. Policy change vs re-coding how hunts work.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

It is called "The hunt" not "The wait". There is no such thing as pulling early. If I find a hunt and want to kill it myself, I have that right. You have no right to reset that hunt, which would remove all my accumulated credit.

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Correct. Fortunately, we do have the right to obliterate you from pretty much any active hunt LS or hunt group and spread your reputation as an early puller. Which the hunt community is rather strict on. Common courtesy will get you far in life when dealing with other people.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

"Difference of playstyle" is a nebulous term that basically allows people to kick whomever they want for whatever reason they want. I could legitimately kick you for having an ugly glamour and there is nothing you can do about it.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

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TBH, if I was kicked for seemingly no reason, you better believe I'd report it for grief as it'd be impeding my progress and enjoyment of the game. I'd probably get a GM asking me what happened, provide player names, times, instance, etc. Then it'd be up to those kicking players to back up their kick. If a GM ever saw conversation of "I don't like their glamour, kick them," "I didn't like their playstyle (maybe no dragon sight for them and complaining about it?)," I'd like to think those players would be served a warning in the very least. Players can kick for whatever reasons, but I sincerely hope there's consequences for the abuse when it actually is being abused.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

You on the wrong subject. We aren't talking about punishing early pullers. We are talking about how GM should not punish those who reset. How would that get administered? By not punishing people who reset after someone else pulled early.
And just FYI, main hunt groups on my server who spawn 99% of the S ranks decided they would give 2 minutes and for the most part, people don't have a problem waiting 2 minutes before pulling and know they usually have 2 minutes to get to the hunt if they are responding to a callout. It's usually the same 2 or 3 people that responded to a callout that will pull early.

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TBH, a while back, I solo spawned Safat (literally had only been myself and 3 low level questers in the span on 2 hours on Coerthas), shouted it and waited for my party only before pulling (which did not fill right away and probably took around 3 minutes from call to actually get there). I'd have been mad if someone had reset it. Loads of people were angry at the "early pull," shouting to reset it and blacklist me from hunt linkshells (was in 7 already, never got removed because I was one of the major spawners then), but from what I've read from your own posts, I was within my 'right' to pull the boss since I spawned it. However, the resetters (who would definitely be leeching as I've said, I did the spawning solo) wouldn't be getting punished, even if I lost all credit I had on the boss and somehow (for the sake of this post) received minimal credit (or even 0 credit).

(Which since that day, any Safat that I've come across or spawned solo, I've killed alone or with one other person. I still report the kills, at least.)

I dropped hunts altogether after it felt like I spent more time waiting on people to get there for a hunt that lived only 30 seconds (if even that long) after pull than actually playing the game.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

TBH, if I was kicked for seemingly no reason, you better believe I'd report it for grief as it'd be impeding my progress and enjoyment of the game. I'd probably get a GM asking me what happened, provide player names, times, instance, etc. Then it'd be up to those kicking players to back up their kick. If a GM ever saw conversation of "I don't like their glamour, kick them," "I didn't like their playstyle (maybe no dragon sight for them and complaining about it?)," I'd like to think those players would be served a warning in the very least. Players can kick for whatever reasons, but I sincerely hope there's consequences for the abuse when it actually is being abused.

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Nope, there isn't. They don't ask about it. They just slide it under the rug as "Difference in Playstyle". Absolutely no consequences unless they were abusive before kicking you. I got kicked once for explaining that we lost the limit break pulling a boss and that was why I said to use it before pull. Reported, got treat as "Difference in playstyle" and that the GMs couldn't do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

"Difference of playstyle" is a nebulous term that basically allows people to kick whomever they want for whatever reason they want. I could legitimately kick you for having an ugly glamour and there is nothing you can do about it.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Yep, I could kick you for being a Dragoon main for example, or because you're a miqo'te female.

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Those are examples of prejudice and aren't allowed. Glamour, race, job, player name and the like have no effect on gameplay. You can try and make up some excuses to get around that, but with enough reports, the GMs will catch on to what you're doing.

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Ok, and they shouldn't care if someone reset a S rank spawn too.

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They do, and they should. Not equivalent, despite whatever you seem to think.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

If the early puller credit is wiped, oh well. You won't see any sympathy from me. I guess is the solution is for the spawners to keep all s rank spawns a secret if you want to take that stance. Let's watch the salt flow from the wider community.
And just because it's GM stance now doesn't mean we can't petition to get that changed. We are the paying customers after all and rules and laws change all the time.

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But what if someone that came later (and not necessarily even the one that spawned it too), attacks it like everyone else but knows that a group of friends would love to have it thus manages to reset it. Some S ranks have bad attacks and lags with DCs too. Now imagine how it would be when you were fighting this thing for some time, someone resets it and thanks to some debuff you cant attack for some time or you are lying on the ground death and thanks to the reset you dont get enough credit? Wouldnt that feel as griefing for you?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Nope, there isn't. They don't ask about it. They just slide it under the rug as "Difference in Playstyle". Absolutely no consequences unless they were abusive before kicking you. I got kicked once for explaining that we lost the limit break pulling a boss and that was why I said to use it before pull. Reported, got treat as "Difference in playstyle" and that the GMs couldn't do anything about it.

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I actually feel sorry for you, then (as well as anyone else that gets that response back), as I've had a much better experience with GMs and not had a kick that resulted in my time being lost simply sit at "difference in play-style" and that was that. It's happened about three times only, I've never had a GM say that, only they are going to investigate after asking me a few questions, but cannot say what will happen at the end of their investigation. None of the times were these other players abusive towards me, either, just a random kick after going part-way or right up 'til the final boss and then receiving a kick (though every single one of those I reported, I told the GM I noticed looking up the players on lodestone that they were all in the same FC).

Not saying something was done, either, as I'd have no way to know, only that I've yet to encounter a GM that did not 1) ask me a bunch of questions for what I was reporting and 2) say they would conduct an investigation. Even though I've only had three encounters with wrongful removal, I've had other reasons to contact GMs in game.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

(...)just a random kick after going part-way or right up 'til the final boss and then receiving a kick (though every single one of those I reported, I told the GM I noticed looking up the players on lodestone that they were all in the same FC).

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Going partway, and even more, going to the final boss and kicking, simply cannot fall under the "difference in playstyle" unless there WAS interaction before it. If a player played so differently that they would be kicked, why go with them through most of the dungeon and kick them only before the final boss?! That is clearly done maliciously. By the time the first boss dies, a player should know what to expect from another and it's the latest I'd consider it reasonable for a muted "gameplay difference" kick.


As for the hunts, there are many facets to the issue.

First, a player may have no chance of getting credit (sorry, 1 tomestone is not really a "reward") if there will be a lot of people gathering. That's several minutes wasted waiting, possibly two or three wasted killing the thing.

Second, the player may not even know about anything like that. I can tell you that I absolutely do not know the difference between A and S rank. If I see a mob, I can tell that it's a hunt higher than B...and that's about all. I don't even really know exactly how they are spawned or the mechanics of spawning (timers and what not). I just know that it happens and I suspect that it have something to do with clearing FATES. There may be players that know even less. To them, if someone ups and resets the mob they pulled then just stand there, it really LOOKS like being jerks. Especially since I can see a flood of abuse towards them for the early pull to follow.

Third, you do not "spawn the S rank" and you do not "have it". You may put forth effort into doing whatever it is that spawns them...but so may have others done, unknowingly. Especially if it is FATE dependent. Someone may do most of the work, then you come and "finish it"...and why are you supposed to be the "boss of the spawn"?! If that player that did unknowingly most of the job is solo and won't have party, he may not get credit if people will pop up and mob the hunt down, he may not even get anything from doing most of the work, even if he could actually solo it otherwise. You are barring him from doing that.

Fourth...in a way, by force-spawning hunts which seem to have time limits, you are actually preventing many people from ever doing them. There are those that can only play two, three hours a day. And it may so happen that the spawn will always be outside of those windows if done "at first opportunity". So if your method of force-spawning them at your convenience prevents players from enjoying the hunts altogether...what gives you the right to get on your high horse in the first place?!

(Whoa...yeah. Just checked the spawn methods. Most are actually rather easy and may happen simply over the course of the game from people randomly doing their jobs, others are more obscure. But the timers can very much prevent some people from ever seeing any spawn with the forced spawning.)

The hunt timers are indeed a huge obstacle to a lot of people interested in the tiger, because living a normal life by having a job and not being at your PC every hour of the day almost ensures you're going to end up missing a ton of them, though that understandably makes some people all the more sour if something gets melted while they were enroute to it.

The "scheduled" ones like Croakadile/Mindflayer and Laideronette are the most convenient since you can actually plan around their spawn times, yet despite the interest numerous people have in killing them, I almost never see anyone outside of my hunting linkshell in zone before we locate/call them, so it's hard for me to have pity for people who miss those due to "early" pullers.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Keeping hunts a secret and doing them with your own party solo is pretty much how the developers intended for hunts to be done from the beginning, so have fun! It might even inspire the community to go hunt more on their own. But resetting a mob someone has pulled in general, not just with hunts falls under griefing, so I doubt they're going to make an exception purely for hunts.

And if they did, how would it even be administered? No matter how long you wait, it's always going to be an "early pull" for someone. Does the guy who was super late get to report for early pulling because he took 4 minutes to get there when everyone else took 1? Does every S rank that spawns need to have a GM present who'll declare when enough "time" has passed for people to pull? You'll find yourself a lot happier if you simply say "ehh, I missed this one, I'll just be quicker next time." it's what I do and I don't have a fiber of salt in my being towards hunts.

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I just want to say that whatever the devs intended doesn't have to be written in stone. I mean, look at Eureka. They intended us to play a certain way with the first map, and because we decided to play a different way they neutered the way we chose to play in the second map just to try to force their view of how it should be played. I think devs should be open to change how content is played if the entire community is doing it in a different way.

A forced stat scaling or level sync is very long overdue.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I just want to say that whatever the devs intended doesn't have to be written in stone. I mean, look at Eureka. They intended us to play a certain way with the first map, and because we decided to play a different way they neutered the way we chose to play in the second map just to try to force their view of how it should be played. I think devs should be open to change how content is played if the entire community is doing it in a different way.

A forced stat scaling or level sync is very long overdue.

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so.. make them fates? BUT WAIT, PEOPLE HATE FATES!

Well, people like Ixion and Odin...

I was thinking they could make the S ranks hidden FATEs, but I realized that would cause a ton of them potentially overlap their radius with normal FATEs (Which to my knowledge, never happens with Odin/Ixion/Coeurlregina due to them being located specifically in spots that aren't near other FATEs).

They'd need to code them as something distinct for that idea to work.

What if the pull is accidental? Mistakes happens... I should know. Messed up an s rank with a miss click..

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Originally Posted by Nich2710

What if the pull is accidental? Mistakes happens... I should know. Messed up an s rank with a miss click..

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Most of the people who pre-pull S ranks have a known history of doing so. There's several bad actors across the NA servers in particular who do it so regularly that they're names are fairly well known.

For real? And here I was worried about a single mistake... how do people deal with these goons?

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Originally Posted by Nich2710

For real? And here I was worried about a single mistake... how do people deal with these goons?

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You don't, because hunts were intended to be free game with no rules attached to them.

The only things I have seen people get in trouble for that were hunt-related were resetting the hunt by dragging it too far away from its spawn point or deliberately positioning it so it would kill people with its AoEs.

The latter is a particularly dodgy subject because I've seen people get away with very obvious intentional griefing, but also know of some who've been framed by hunt trolls who deliberately kept running into the AOEs and dying, then successfully got them warned by a GM after they reported them for "harassment".

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Originally Posted by Nich2710

What if the pull is accidental? Mistakes happens... I should know. Messed up an s rank with a miss click..

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Why did you necro a thread from 2018 to say this?

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

Why did you necro a thread from 2018 to say this?

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Why not? They had a question, and threads don't get locked here. On the JP side it is preferable to keep everything in 1 thread, something the West seems to go opposite of. And if something arises out of it, it's easier to translate to JP and the dev team if it is nicely formatted in one single thread.

It's a valid concern nonetheless.