This Needs to Be Said

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Let's be real, it's too late now to change Pyros or the fourth installment from their planned release. So, I'd say it's a good time to have a real significant feedback so that they can adjust what big alternate content they have in store for the next expansion. At worst, people will massively dislike it, and it will help not making the same "mistakes".

It's very easy to post on the forum to provide your feedback, but people are lazy to not do it.

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Oh yeah, it is definitely too late to make any significant changes. There's a fourth zone that's supposed to be coming, isn't there? The devs are going to have to be really honest about wanting feedback, and they're going to have to be willing to take it seriously enough that they would make changes to future content like this - or at least put in multiple ways that you can go after your relic, rather than just pure FATE grinding for significant boosts.

I agree that it's really simple to provide feedback through the forums - but again, I feel like it would be better if 1) the devs encouraged it and 2) they actually took that feedback seriously.

The problem is,they designed eureka for more than 1 year,thinking it will be so great,but no people just hate it,but they cant change year of work in a snap of finger,so they just throw the cobntent as it is cause they dont care.

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

The problem is,they designed eureka for more than 1 year,thinking it will be so great,but no people just hate it,but they cant change year of work in a snap of finger,so they just throw the cobntent as it is cause they dont care.

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I find that highly doubtful considering how much of Pagos's design seems to be in response to how people did Anemos I find that highly doubtful.

Feels more like they spent a majority of the time trying to figure out how to make Eureka before settling on Diadem 2.0 when nothing else worked.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

I find that highly doubtful considering how much of Pagos's design seems to be in response to how people did Anemos I find that highly doubtful.

Feels more like they spent a majority of the time trying to figure out how to make Eureka before settling on Diadem 2.0 when nothing else worked.

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Well,thats what they said,but yeah feels more like you said,but they will never admit they slacked off most of the time and at the end just did an other diadem

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...do you remember the wailing about WHM before Stormblood? You remember people complaining how OP SAM was? Yeah, people should wait some.
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Do you remember people seeing the patch notes for WHM on Stormblood? The healer community knew lilies were junk. All of them did. The same with SCH mana costs, especially Adlo. AST could shield almost just as good, with no cast time, and for less mana. Again, anyone who read the patch notes could see this.

SAM's damage was fine, the problem is they brought zero utility. Which they still suffer from to this day.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...do you remember the wailing about WHM before Stormblood? You remember people complaining how OP SAM was? Yeah, people should wait some.

It's more like realize you have some freedom, you aren't locked into doing it in the most punishing way possible. You can just duo logs and duo fate triggers near your level, and do good. You don't have to do nonstop 4 hour grinding. It's not the only way.

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You conveniently omitted WHM's initial build had RNG healing aspects attached to it, which is why people all but revolted. In fact, that design wasn't even changed entirely until after Stormblood launched due to the devs sticking to their guns. It was especially bad since Astro retained the absurdly OP Balance buffs from 3.4.

As for Samurai, most people actually deemed Samurai the new Monk... which is precisely what happened. Did some overact? Of course. But it wasn't nearly to the extent you're insinuating.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You conveniently omitted WHM's initial build had RNG healing aspects attached to it, which is why people all but revolted. In fact, that design wasn't even changed entirely until after Stormblood launched due to the devs sticking to their guns. It was especially bad since Astro retained the absurdly OP Balance buffs from 3.4.

As for Samurai, most people actually deemed Samurai the new Monk... which is precisely what happened. Did some overact? Of course. But it wasn't nearly to the extent you're insinuating.

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Even with the rng, it was still perfectly fine. It wasn't doom and gloom, class is worthless once you played it.. But if you don't actually have the class in hand, you can seize on certain changes and worry that they will impact much more than they actually do.

People need to not worry so much about stuff that is teased like in an interview. People need to go out and try it, and then we get more balance. I worry that with eureka specifically the doom and gloom colors reception before people actually go in to it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

No...the issue is that it's far too much grinding for what you get in the end.

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EH, it's a style of play people aren't really liking more than anything. You grind just as much to get something like the pan of the luminary for crafting achievements, for example. It really seems people in this game want content more in 15-30 min chunks based on instances, yet they kind of complain about not having open world stuff too.

RNG on top of RNG on top of more RNG is bs. I mean seriously I can’t motivate my self to go back. Today there wasn’t much going on so I thought maybe I’ll go in. But as soon as I did. I turned the game off and watched Netflix and was ultimately happy. Devs. PAGOS is bad! Please learn from your mistakes and quit it with this! Rng is apart of gameplay but SE has been notorious in many games for low rng. Pagos blows everything out of the way.

At this point I tell them with my sub, which will run out in early November. Had Pagos been far LESS of another Diadem-meets-FFXI's-worst type of experience then I might have stayed subbed, or maybe I'd stave off resubbing for a day or two tops (because this game has other issues still not properly addressed). Thanks to Pagos? A month, maybe more.

Really, that's all SE will listen to these days is the sub numbers. If we stay subbed while shouting at them, and even keep doing the shit content we don't want, then nothing will get fixed. Ever.

Additionally, I would not be surprised if it turned out that every time we cue into Pagos, even if it's the same instance and we gtfo after a couple seconds, it counted towards the area's activity. So those of us trying, or who did try, to get a more suitable instance added that much more to it in that scenario. I don't have SE's data in front of me, however, so I cannot prove this at all. All the more reason not to touch Pagos at all if it is, honestly.

My view of this whole situation is basically this.

Ok you want to follow this “vision” of gameplay with diadem, anemos/pagos/pyros/blablabla fine, keep it there for those that like this kind of content, but don’t put the relic behind it!!

I enjoyed the relic how it was before in its different forms. At the moment it is a piece of content that, personally, was removed from the game, simply because I just can’t do it. I can’t do Eureka!! I prefer do go and clean toilets, listen to a baby cry, watch paint dry... that to do the most boring mindless piece of content I have ever seen in a large scale mmorpg...

Yeah, despite completing four weapons in Pagos after the change to exp with the NMs, I'm probably not touching Pyros until we know that the rng is minimal at most. If that doesn't happen with the third phase of the relic then I'm not even going to queue in.

When Pagos came out and I denounced my active achievement hunting in this game, I meant it, and don't care how far behind I fall back with what I have if this becomes a game that I simply cannot enjoy, especially when resources are taken out of a larger variety of dungeons to go into Eureka. Even more the case when the NMs in Eureka don't even count towards the FATE achievements; the FATEs and Notorious Monsters in Diadem do, however!

I hope y'all join me on this, who simply do not like this content. There's no point adding so much traffic to this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I'm sorry in advance, but having just fully returned recently and now seeing the news, I really need to get this off my chest. What is it with the devs and their obsession with Diadem-like gameplay? What is with this vision of theirs about this that they keep beating it into the player base?

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Because it is "content" that is extremely easy to design.
Think about it: instead of having to design a complex dungeon with new mobs, new abilities, new art etc, they can just re-use art assets, mob models and abilities in game.
Then they slap a braindead grind onto it so players are "occupied" for a long time and put a shiny carrot at the end.

Maximum player "engagement" (didn't work for my group, we fell asleep and abandoned the content) for minimum effort.
THAT is why they have a fetish for this crap. It's pure economic thinking.

Yes, SE I said "crap" because this is a SUBSCRIPTION MMO. I expect more ingenuity and effort for the kind of cash we throw at you compared to some Free to play asia grinder.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

1) the devs encouraged it

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How would you do that ?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Think about it: instead of having to design a complex dungeon with new mobs, new abilities, new art etc, they can just re-use art assets, mob models and abilities in game.

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Yeah, instead of designing one straight line with three circle rooms, they have to design a huge zone with caves, slopes, verticality, etc...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yeah, instead of designing one straight line with three circle rooms, they have to design a huge zone with caves, slopes, verticality, etc...

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Yes they have to build the map. But, provided a good map editor, that doesn't take nearly as long as creating new art assets.
Yoshida said in an interview that creating 3D art assets is their biggest bottleneck.

In that light, it makes sense why they constantly re-use stuff they already have.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

But, provided a good map editor, that doesn't take nearly as long as creating new art assets.

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Same for dungeons, on top of being extremely bland in their design. They're all one linear path to three bosses.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Same for dungeons, on top of being extremely bland in their design. They're all one linear path to three bosses.

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Dungeons have a tendency to differ from each other though, especially the SB dungeons. If you take the time to enjoy the scenery as you murder adds, it can actually make a lot of difference. In comparison, Eureka is a zone that for all its sub-zones, you're still supposed to spend hours upon hours in there.
And it's not like they never had non-linear dungeons. But that's more something the community is responsible for. When was the last time you full-cleared Sastasha? Unlocked the full map in Toto-Rak, or hell, even went down the other path for a change? Does anyone even remember what you get in those side rooms in Dzaemel Darkhold?
The community would find the most efficient way to clear content and follow it only, effectively making anything else in the dungeon a waste of development time.

Yeah, sadly, non linear dungeons don't work very well in practice. Blizzard tried many, times.

It's okay for raids which are done by organized groups but not dungeons in which you get thrown together with randoms you never see again.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

How would you do that ?

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Remember what I said some pages back. Use a simple system message that only pops up when you get into an Eureka zone. That's literally all the devs would need to do to encourage feedback. Set it up so that it only pops up when you go in there.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The community would find the most efficient way to clear content and follow it only, effectively making anything else in the dungeon a waste of development time.

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You're right about that, but it doesn't change the fact that dungeons are easy to make. As for the scenery, most dungeons only reuse existing textures from the real zones. And most monsters also reuse past 3D models, with a different texture sticked on it.
Besides, before we had content like Diadem and Eureka, we still only one had "new" dungeon per major patch, the others were only reusing past maps and assets..and we still have our "new" dungeon each patch.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Yeah, sadly, non linear dungeons don't work very well in practice. Blizzard tried many, times.

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I wouldn't say that, and more "branching path that offers nothing don't work well". I think they could have a dungeon where you can do the first bosses in any order you want, and once you've killed the three of them, then the final room opens for the fourth boss.
Funny thing, Toto-Rak was much more interesting in 1.x, where the numbers of portals you activated actually changed the location and the strength of the last boss. You also had additionnal rewards at the end for opening every chest, encouraging you to explore the branching paths. 1.x Cutter's Cry also required you to split your party in two because you had to clear rooms at the same time.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Set it up so that it only pops up when you go in there.

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When reading this, what comes to my mind is the Achievement pop-up you have when you zone, and I tend to ignore it every time :p

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Dungeons have a tendency to differ from each other though, especially the SB dungeons. If you take the time to enjoy the scenery as you murder adds, it can actually make a lot of difference. In comparison, Eureka is a zone that for all its sub-zones, you're still supposed to spend hours upon hours in there.
And it's not like they never had non-linear dungeons. But that's more something the community is responsible for. When was the last time you full-cleared Sastasha? Unlocked the full map in Toto-Rak, or hell, even went down the other path for a change? Does anyone even remember what you get in those side rooms in Dzaemel Darkhold?
The community would find the most efficient way to clear content and follow it only, effectively making anything else in the dungeon a waste of development time.

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that hapened because taking those alternative paths what brings you to nowhere didn't rewarded you(tell me, how many arr dungeons alt path treasures give you gear what was equal to boss gear?) or didn't helped to pogress on the dungeon at all(the only exception to this is toto rak because you are required to find multiple items on the map, albeit most of them are on the linear path), i mean, if you end up on a closed path and there is nothing... well, why bother to go there the next time?, in this regard the dev team is lazy, because they could make big dungeons maps whit multiple paths be worthwile, but they don't whant to

Sastasha, Copperbell and Tam-Tara actually all have the chance to give you pretty decent accessories. But not only the chests are out of the way, but there's also a very high chance to get potions of ethers out of them instead. And nowadays they're completely redundant because all new charas start with the new worn out accessories. So these things arguably used to have value, but it's a mix of it becoming trash too quickly and nobody picking it up in the first place that NOW they're really not worth the hassle.

I just logged onto Reddit and saw a thread from someone who has all 15 Pagos weapons. Here's some of what they had to say...

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I enjoyed the grind in pagos way too much and was able to catch up on anime

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(my italics)

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...Just let muscle memory take control and look at the screen every 40ish secs when doing dragons. Otherwise, mainly watched anime and tv series to pass the time...

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Ok, I know some people love grinding and huge respect to that person for putting the time in to get every weapon. I don't want to disparage their achievement at all, but...
That's it? That's what we get? Content so engaging that not only can you watch something else while you do it but you probably need to do that, in order to stave off the boredom. Says it all.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

I didn't say it was well liked... by the people who were there at least. Ya girl wasn't there and hasn't even set foot in Pagos.

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Yet you stated how the OP was wrong that people hated Diadem. But if they needed a second version and that failed fast and they even talked about taking Diadem out of the game, that really sounds like a lot of people or even the majority greatly disliked or maybe even hated it. So I honestly see nothing wrong with her statement.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Um, there was no pre-existing (added this..) vocal dislike of the content. Pagos is disliked more because they made it a lot harder for people by seriously hampering the fate train in response how it trivialized the content. Most of the dislike really came with Pagos, which was an overreaction to anemos, possibly because Se listened too much to voices who disliked people leeching their way to relics. Diadem wasn't disliked for itself, but for design decisions about rewards like randomized stats and the 72 man battles. I mean, this was more or less experimental content to vary how people obtain relics.

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There were quite some discussions about what is wrong with Diadem and thats why they even tried for a second version that was even more disliked (here in the forum and ingame by being death in a couple of days). Also there was a 100 pages thread about Anemos with lots of people that disliked it and even those that liked it had often quite some points that they would have liked to be better. (The JP playerbase also greatly disliked Anemos, they highest amounts of likes were for post against it, some of them even calling it dirt) Now with Pagos you have even people that still somewhat enjoyed Anemos to dislike it but lets not forget that the complains started way earlier than that and that people had enough problems with content like Diadem too. (And lots of good ideas how to make it better which were completely ignored for a Diadem 2.0 that hat fates and the AFK wait for one random EM that randomly dropped someone a high level weapon. The weapon alone was not the only problem of this but just the tip of the iceberg)

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Sastasha, Copperbell and Tam-Tara actually all have the chance to give you pretty decent accessories. But not only the chests are out of the way, but there's also a very high chance to get potions of ethers out of them instead. And nowadays they're completely redundant because all new charas start with the new worn out accessories. So these things arguably used to have value, but it's a mix of it becoming trash too quickly and nobody picking it up in the first place that NOW they're really not worth the hassle.

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they dropped accesories?, i never see those side chests drop any gear at all, and i was here since 2.0. the only chest i remember what actually gave accesories was from brayflox final chest before the final boss

edit: checked garland tools, you are somewhat right, some of those chest did gave gear, on shastasha some of the chest what gave gear where out of their way, tamtara ones didnt, but they where behind optional mobs, and coperbelt ones they where prety much in the linear path whit the exception of 2 chests what literally only gave potions

still, those gear was't worth the strugle for like a few reasons

1) the level of the gear was so low what could get outdated fast, and so crafted gear/brought gear from npc could be generally a better option at those levels
2) pink gear, so it can be outright trash gear because of the random stats
3) is worse what you can get out of bosses(those chest not only drop accesories, but armor as well, bosses on those dungeons do not give accesories, right, but they drop armor, why bother to get something what will get outdated inmediately once you get a boss piece?

to make it worth to go after a chest, what it gives should be either equal to boss gear or better, or even better, they could just straight remove chest from bosses(since we get already a reward, tomes) and just place them around the whole dungeon

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Originally Posted by Jib

My view of this whole situation is basically this.

Ok you want to follow this “vision” of gameplay with diadem, anemos/pagos/pyros/blablabla fine, keep it there for those that like this kind of content, but don’t put the relic behind it!!

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Without a major, game defining carrot behind it this content can't stand on it's own. Just like the two iterations before it.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

I just logged onto Reddit and saw a thread from someone who has all 15 Pagos weapons. Here's some of what they had to say...

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quote snip

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Ok, I know some people love grinding and huge respect to that person for putting the time in to get every weapon. I don't want to disparage their achievement at all, but...
That's it? That's what we get? Content so engaging that not only can you watch something else while you do it but you probably need to do that, in order to stave off the boredom. Says it all.

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Despite the fact he/she admitted to exploiting the sytem:

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And when I couldn't get a dragon party I would go to the lvl 20 bunny fate and pull 3 yarzons, get them down to about 15% life and use Contre to kill all 3 at once and then immediatley click my levelsync macro, so I could get a chain and have a chance at bright to newborn star light (depending on chain.) But theres also times where I would go like 150 mobs without getting light and there were also times where I would get like 4 bars in 40mins cuz of lucky rng.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

I just logged onto Reddit and saw a thread from someone who has all 15 Pagos weapons. Here's some of what they had to say...
(my italics)

Ok, I know some people love grinding and huge respect to that person for putting the time in to get every weapon. I don't want to disparage their achievement at all, but...
That's it? That's what we get? Content so engaging that not only can you watch something else while you do it but you probably need to do that, in order to stave off the boredom. Says it all.

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There's people doing that with most content on this game, besides Savage. That speaks more of the playerbase than the content itself. Why not logout and just watch anime instead of doing both? Because the content is engaging enough but they just don't want to bother giving it their full attention.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Without a major, game defining carrot behind it this content can't stand on it's own. Just like the two iterations before it.

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Agreed

Re: the Reddit post I mentioned earlier

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Despite the fact he/she admitted to exploiting the sytem:

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I didn't read much more than I quoted so I missed that. My point was that even someone who enjoyed Pagos and played it a lot was basically watching Anime etc, to entertain themselves while they were there.
150 mobs and no light, even when doing something questionable... certainly doesn't make me want to get back in there and give it another chance.


@JohnSpawnVFX
I'm on PS4 and usually don't have a computer nearby. I know there are some people that do play and watch Netflix at the same time, but for me the content has to be engaging enough to take my full attention. We are paying for this. Eureka was meant to be a major part of this expansion. If you need a distraction from content while you are playing it, then in my opinion, something is very, very wrong.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

When reading this, what comes to my mind is the Achievement pop-up you have when you zone, and I tend to ignore it every time :p

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Sorry about the late response. But no those popups can be obtrusive sometimes. I'm sure a lot of players did see the system message in the chat box about the upcoming maintenance. If players ignore it, then that's another thing. But really, a system message is all you'd really need to say, hey, we're trying to be more open.

I said adios to Pagos after crawling my way through and finishing a second weapon there. I'd love to get the rest done one day, but no way with how it is right now...waaaaay too much other stuff to do in game that's more fun, to put it nicely.

I can imagine there being a dip in Pagos players come next patch, after all we'll have a ton of new content and the Eureka weapon will be underpowered somewhat at 370 compared to all the new tomestones and raiding gear that'll be available. Perhaps if Pagos gets some more adjustments people may go in more, otherwise they could just wait it out till the last Eureka area drops, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

I can imagine there being a dip in Pagos players come next patch, after all we'll have a ton of new content and the Eureka weapon will be underpowered somewhat at 370 compared to all the new tomestones and raiding gear that'll be available. Perhaps if Pagos gets some more adjustments people may go in more, otherwise they could just wait it out till the last Eureka area drops, who knows.

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I know speaking personally, I wouldn't grind through Pagos to get to Pyros, in its current state.

I'd highly recommend SE find a way to make Pyros sort of 'parallel content' to Pagos (i.e. monsters start at level 20, and maybe go up to level 40), allowing people to skip Pagos entirely from a leveling standpoint. Otherwise their 'new' content will be operating at a distinct disadvantage from day one.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

I know speaking personally, I wouldn't grind through Pagos to get to Pyros, in its current state.

I'd highly recommend SE find a way to make Pyros sort of 'parallel content' to Pagos (i.e. monsters start at level 20, and maybe go up to level 40), allowing people to skip Pagos entirely from a leveling standpoint. Otherwise their 'new' content will be operating at a distinct disadvantage from day one.

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One can only hope that they are going to fix it but we will see. I would like to think that they would because I have folks who are still staying to get caught up through Anemos.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

I know speaking personally, I wouldn't grind through Pagos to get to Pyros, in its current state.

I'd highly recommend SE find a way to make Pyros sort of 'parallel content' to Pagos (i.e. monsters start at level 20, and maybe go up to level 40), allowing people to skip Pagos entirely from a leveling standpoint. Otherwise their 'new' content will be operating at a distinct disadvantage from day one.

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Me too. I stopped doing Anemos as soon as I got the T-Rex mount and still need lots of levels there before I can even set foot into Pagos at all. Then I would need to level through that too to even get to Pyros. So no matter how good the next one would be (which I doubt that it will be great) or even the last one, having to level through the other parts stops me from going there. And no reward is worth going through this at that point (for me).

Also interestingly the one with all 15 Pagos weapons did need over 600 hours to get all those weapons. Thats around 40 hours per weapon. Now this is the time done with an exploid thus casuals will probably need more time. Thus you need 40+ hours for one weapon that is useless tomorrow and you also cant do any other content will you did that...40 hours...how ist that casual?

I’m only level 6 in the first Eureka.

I’ll get to it probably long after 5.0 if the end weapon looks any good for DRK. If not then I’ll skip.

Dead Hive weapon is still the main glamour for my DRK everything else is a failure. Need to step up the glamour game if you’re I want me to grind mindlessly for months.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

I’ll get to it probably long after 5.0 if the end weapon looks any good for DRK. If not then I’ll skip.

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I'm kinda scared it will not be possible in 5.0. Unless they figure out some way to make Eureka something people want to do for fun as opposed to this "ugh, do I have to?" thing that holds relic weapons and some mounts and glamours hostage, I predict it will be dead long before the next expansion arrives, and completely forgotten after it releases. If nobody goes there, FATEs will become impossible and there's only so long one can grind mobs solo or in a small group before one starts hearing voices telling them to murder the guy laughing at them from the TV, despite the fact that they haven't owned a TV set for years.

SE has gladly heard you OP, and will make Pyros even more grindy than Pagos or Anemos ever were.
ty bb

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Me too. I stopped doing Anemos as soon as I got the T-Rex mount and still need lots of levels there before I can even set foot into Pagos at all. Then I would need to level through that too to even get to Pyros. So no matter how good the next one would be (which I doubt that it will be great) or even the last one, having to level through the other parts stops me from going there. And no reward is worth going through this at that point (for me).

Also interestingly the one with all 15 Pagos weapons did need over 600 hours to get all those weapons. Thats around 40 hours per weapon. Now this is the time done with an exploid thus casuals will probably need more time. Thus you need 40+ hours for one weapon that is useless tomorrow and you also cant do any other content will you did that...40 hours...how ist that casual?

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-40 hours a week for 1 weapon

I already work 40 hours a week doing the same thing every day, I want to home and game and spend my time in a variety of activities and locales. Not one goddamn instance.

Filthy casual, who doesn't do savage raids,or even current raids, to get that augmented whatever the latest iLvl gear, does the bare minimum of Duty Roulettes weekly to get those sweet tomestone handouts, gonna add my 2 gil here:

1. I dislike Eureka. I've been in Eureka for a grand total of 2 times. Whenever, I think of a "Skinner Box", Eureka will now be a blindingly shining example of boring Skinner Box in my mind. Guess, I'll never get that /shiver emote :(

2. Been to Diadem recently thanks to FC leader. Cool place to explore, however my gripe with Didaem prior to going there and now is that you need to go in via the FC airship or the Ishgard queuing,(which I think is dead).

At least, Eureka is far more accessible and the scenery seems to be nice. However, since the rewards of Didaem are now being shifted into HOH, I hope Eureka ends up dying like Diadem did.

Yes, I find endlessly running POTD, HOH more fun than Eureka.

I'd rather grind FATES for crystals than stand around in an instance for hours at a time. There is so much beautiful, open, and unsused space in the new Stormblood maps, that SE could've done something with them.

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Originally Posted by Moogly

SE has gladly heard you OP, and will make Pyros even more grindy than Pagos or Anemos ever were.
ty bb

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Sad, but a very accurate look at what Pyros is becoming. :(