When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

Personally, I think the game won't get easier just because you're pressing one button a few times instead of a few buttons in an order.
Plus, there's no reason to press combo 2 or 3 when you haven't pressed combo 1 or 2. It's just there to be a nuisance, and an illusion to show that what you're doing seems "difficult".

But if SE decides to compress each combo into one button, it should be optional so everybody will be happy.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Ok, I can actually understand and get behind that line of thinking.

All the more reason if such a thing were to be implemented, it would need to be optional.

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Optional doesn't really work though. Say they add an additional five abilities. What incentive do the devs have to make room for those who don't want their main combos consolidated? I'll basically be forced into it or have to start using QERTFZXC and etc for ability slots, which I'd prefer not to. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke...

Edit:
For argument's sake, I've been trying to think of how they might alter Monk's abilities if they ever did implement the PvP system. All that comes to mind is consolidating both rotations into a single button each but having the abilities shift based on your form. So using Dragon Kick would trigger both Twin Snake and True Strike to show up, and either of those would lead into Snap Punch or Demolish. Basically, you wouldn't have to use the combo (i.e. 1-1-1) for the other abilities to switch over.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Optional doesn't really work though. Say they add an additional five abilities. What incentive do the devs have to make room for those who don't want their main combos consolidated? I'll basically be forced into it or have to start using QERTFZXC and etc for ability slots, which I'd prefer not to. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke...

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And frankly combo-oriented games tend to attract very specific audiences whilst repelling others. I'm not sure SE would want to whole sale embrace this system when so many people are fine with how it is now.

I also frankly don't think the PVP system is any more fluid or balanced than what we currently have, nor do I trust SE to make the proper adjustments in implementing it in PVE content after the debacle that was their ability trimming during SB's launch. The way they pruned SCH with it being one of the few classes that had abilities GIVEN BACK and the current state pre-70 Machinist is in don't give me any faith that they know how to handle large sweeping changes with all their classes.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Optional doesn't really work though. Say they add an additional five abilities. What incentive do the devs have to make room for those who don't want their main combos consolidated? I'll basically be forced into it or have to start using QERTFZXC and etc for ability slots, which I'd prefer not to. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke...

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Alternatively though, why make 10 buttons what is functionally 3? If adding on additional abilities to their game will remove your ability to play the game comfortably, despite that there are actually relatively few skill choices at any given time, then something is already broken, or at least strained.

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Originally Posted by Enla

And frankly combo-oriented games tend to attract very specific audiences whilst repelling others. I'm not sure SE would want to whole sale embrace this system when so many people are fine with how it is now.

I also frankly don't think the PVP system is any more fluid or balanced than what we currently have, nor do I trust SE to make the proper adjustments in implementing it in PVE content after the debacle that was their ability trimming during SB's launch. The way they pruned SCH with it being one of the few classes that had abilities GIVEN BACK and the current state pre-70 Machinist is in don't give me any faith that they know how to handle large sweeping changes with all their classes.

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Ability pruning =/= button pruning. The first is done to reduce player power or options available, usually with the intent of reducing the gap between skill and unskilled players, or as a last resort to combat button bloat. Button pruning literally just reduced button bloat, not ability count. The hotkeys saved through button pruning allow developers not to prune away abilities, and make it a hell of a lot more obvious when they do.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ability pruning =/= button pruning. The first is done to reduce player power or options available, usually with the intent of reducing the gap between skill and unskilled players, or as a last resort to combat button bloat. Button pruning literally just reduced button bloat, not ability count. The hotkeys saved through button pruning allow developers not to prune away abilities, and make it a hell of a lot more obvious when they do.

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All true, my point however was that SE doesn't know what they're doing with half of their classes when they try to make changes to the existing system which I will stand by. The button removal was just one example, but there's a reason I also included how unbalanced MCH is pre-70 in my post. This is a development team who sees an interesting idea and doesn't fully think out the consequences of implementing it until it's too late and they have to add remedial patches on later to fix things.

No thanks. It's very easy now, I have nerve damage in my elbows and I can manage it. Please do not implement this. The reason I left WoW was because I could tank anything using only three butons. Booooooooooooooooooooooring.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

People have this idea that doing 1 2 3 on their keyboard makes them skilled and adds challenge to the gameplay. So when they see an idea to have only to tap 3 times one button instead of 3, for some reason its akin to dumbing the game down.

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Sort of. With 1-2-3 there is the possibility of hitting the wrong key. With 1-1-1, that risk is completely eliminated. Kind of like playing the piano. Which requires more skill? Using all the keys to play a song or pressing one key repeatedly to play a song?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Alternatively though, why make 10 buttons what is functionally 3? If adding on additional abilities to their game will remove your ability to play the game comfortably, despite that there are actually relatively few skill choices at any given time, then something is already broken, or at least strained.

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The solution is to remove or revamp other abilities not to break what already works. The combo system isn't broken, which is why people would prefer they not mess around with it. Explore how to adapt more abilities like WAR does with its stances or just don't add five new ones every expansion and try something different. What I don't want is DRG's rotation to essentially become 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2. That just feels incredibly boring to me.

Speaking for MCHs, nothing has made our job less interesting and more predictable than tying our non-linear shot combo to a linear chain.

Many of us veteran PvPers really dislike the system and wouldn't want to see it spill over to PvE. At the worst, if we have to suffer it, make it optional.

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Originally Posted by Miste

My example is based on what OP asked for.

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I'd like to point out that the counterexamples are how the monk should be working in PvP (not how it ended up implemented).

Consider how the Paladin combos work in PvP.

Combo 1 is Fast Blade -> Riot Blade -> Royal Authority
Combo 2 is Fast Blade -> Savage blade -> Rage of Halone

Pushing either of the 2 combos step 1 (Fast Blade) advances the combos to step 2 (Riot Blade and Savage Blade). Pressing Combo 1 (Riot Blade) at this causes Combo 2 to reset to Fast Blade and Combo 2 to advance to Royal Authority while Pressing Combo 2 (Savage Blade) causes Combo 1 to revert to Fast Blade while Combo 2 advances to Rage of Halone.

This means that pushing 1 1 1 and 2 1 1 both lead to Royal Authority while 1 2 2 and 2 2 2 lead to Rage of Halone.

The combos are not really independent of each other and the only reason Monk can't intermix combos like normal is due to them removing the Form system and replacing them with a 1 2 3 and a 4 5 6 combo.

It is a necessary step anyway, unless we get only traits or get rid of more interesting options for next xpac.

The goal should be to delete options which are not or cannot used anyway to make room for new 'real' options.
Combo-Steps 2 and 3 of a combo I don't use right now are useless, Akh Morn without summoed Bahamut is useless, Pitch Perfect outside WM is useless, Fell Cleave in Defiance.. oh wait, they already did that. ;)

Monk aside (but that one needs a rework anyway, right?) I don't see what we would lose pruning combos and linear oGCD execution if we get new, more interesting skills.

E.g. they replace WM after execution with Pitch Perfect and give us an AoE-PP on top as a new skill or they prune combos and give us a whole new combo instead, for example a magical dmg+ debuff combo for DRK.
Or give pole dance AoE back to DRG, with it replacing Heavy Thrust after execution (AoE you would use it, single target just skip it... after 10s it changes back to Heavy Thrust).
Or a high pot combo for a melee but with insane tp cost so that you can use it only a specific ammount of times and/or depending on circumstances like getting a Spire/tp song/long downtime instead of in a set rotation with other combos.

Also... Pole dancing as we were used to it in battle, but since gated behind Heavy Thrust no usage in town... a dream.

I dunno...catch me up to speed because I haven't done this on PVP in a while, but when I'm going through my rotations as SAM, since I start with my Higanbana for single targets, when I proc my Midare Setsugekka, I like to have at least two weaponskills (or one if I'm going back to Higanbana) charged before I hit it. I'm not sure I like the idea of simplifying the SAM combos because of that reason alone.

I think the combo on one button is a great Evolution and solution to action bloat.

Pvp is meh at best thanks to the changes in stormblood and now people want them to bring these awful changes to Pve.. No.

The changes should be changed back for pvp.

900 buttons or 5 doesnt change the fact that in the end it's the player skills that matter

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Many of us veteran PvPers really dislike the system and wouldn't want to see it spill over to PvE. At the worst, if we have to suffer it, make it optional.

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The idea behind the new PvP was not bad. But it was poorly implemented. Especially to reduce the complexitiy of each class to zero makes it even worse. When it comes to MCH, the MCH from Stormblood is actually fine now. Way better than its (boring) PvP-counterpart. I m sorry, but I cant imagine how to raid with the extreme simplified PvP-MCH. PvP is kinda broken right now. If you think, that new players can compete with experienced players now - think again! People still cant manage to press 11 buttons properly or even focus on one target... .

No! I dont want to have this in PvE! If you really think SE should make (the already simplified) PvE even more simple, you should play something else.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The solution is to remove or revamp other abilities not to break what already works. The combo system isn't broken, which is why people would prefer they not mess around with it. Explore how to adapt more abilities like WAR does with its stances or just don't add five new ones every expansion and try something different. What I don't want is DRG's rotation to essentially become 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2. That just feels incredibly boring to me.

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See, I do not understand this. 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 is exactly what you had in HW, modified only by breaking the bound symmetry between HT and Pb in SB for a mere 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3 instead. You just scoot a button over each time instead. You still only have three actual weaponskill decisions in single-target. You HT, ID-Db-CT-WT-F&C, or TT-VT-FT-F&C-WT.

What is wrong with having the option to use 3 buttons for 3 skills? That changes nothing. That breaks nothing.

Now, I personally would prefer to see all 9 of those weaponskills actually mean something throughout single-target, so that rather than bloat, I have actual decisions that reflect my button count, but that would actually be a real change. That would be breaking something.

It seems like someone arguing over being given a rotatable 3D model in place of front, side, and back view of the same thing, in a world of otherwise 3D models.

Why should the solution to obvious button bloat be 'well, just don't make new abilities' or to 'remove (yet more) abilities', rather than just dealing with the bloat that never should have been there to begin with? You are advocating that actual complexity be reduced, or future player controls curtailed, just to protect—what—the pretense of complexity or control?

Was there something inherently better about having to have both Inner Beast and Fel Cleave on your bar, separately, at the same time? If not, why suggest that exactly that be done with combos?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

See, I do not understand this. 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 is exactly what you had in HW, modified only by breaking the bound symmetry between HT and Pb in SB for a mere 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3 instead. You just scoot a button over each time instead

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What are you talking about here though cause you've confused me.

Like...my HW DRG was not 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 or 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3?

If I went by my bar specifically my HW DRG was 8-3-6-5-11/12-1-2-4-11/12 (this is just HT and both combos though ignoring oGCDs etc)

How is that the same as 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2?

I mean personally if you want to change DRG into 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 or 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3 that seems like a good way to get a RSI. Which is why if they ever forced consolidation I'd probably quit. Certain other jobs that spam one button too frequently already hurt my hands and fingers. Honestly maybe I'm the only one with that issue but pressing the same button repetitively is much harder on my hands and fingers than variation.

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Originally Posted by LunaTsukihime

Ever since they introduced the combos and streamlined structure I've been wondering when they will implement this for the normal PVE gameplay.

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PLEASE! the one bad thing about this game is the amount of AWFUL skill bloat. Just condensing combos in PVE down to one button would help SO much though! Modern games don't need 30+ skills to be challenging.

People whine its "Dumbing down" but sorry buddies, it's not, it's just trimming the fat.

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Originally Posted by Miste

What are you talking about here though cause you've confused me.

Like...my HW DRG was not 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 or 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3?

If I went by my bar specifically my HW DRG was 8-3-6-5-11/12-1-2-4-11/12 (this is just HT and both combos though ignoring oGCDs etc)

How is that the same as 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2?

I mean personally if you want to change DRG into 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 or 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3 that seems like a good way to get a RSI. Which is why if they ever forced consolidation I'd probably quit. Certain other jobs that spam one button too frequently already hurt my hands and fingers. Honestly maybe I'm the only one with that issue but pressing the same button repetitively is much harder on my hands and fingers than variation.

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If your current rotation is 8-3-6-5-11/12-1-2-4-11/12 or simplier 1-2-3-4-5/6-7-8-9-5/6 your new one would be 1-2-2-2-3/4-5-5-5-3/4 and not just 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2- or whatever you imagine there.
If you want to get 3-4 new abilites that is the way to get the buttons for them. Else get rid of old abilities. Your choice.

Pressing a GCD button max. 3 times in a row is too hard? Lol, that is something every caster (Ruin3, Broil/Stone4, Fire4) does in their normal rotation now and then and even phys. dps/tanks in AoE situation often do that depending on amount of adds (NIN, PLD/WAR, BRD, MCH....)

Aaaaaaalso: You can just set each 1-button-combo on more than one Slot.
You can still press 1-2-3-4-5/6-7-8-9-5/6 when you just place the first combo on buttons 2-3-4 instead of only on 2 and second combo on buttons 7-8-9 instead of only on 5....
there you go, you can press the same buttons without need to change your muscle memory.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I mean personally if you want to change DRG into 1-1-1-1-1--2-2-2-2-2 or 1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-3 that seems like a good way to get a RSI. Which is why if they ever forced consolidation I'd probably quit.

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Even if they would force it...this is a rather weak argument, you know. What stops you from adding the same button onto two or more slots and pushing them in a variation of whatever sort you want? Even if 1-2-3 would bring the same result as 1-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-1-2, 3-1-2, 2-3-1 and about two dozens more...it's about you pushing different buttons, right? I'd say this is even better, since you could actually push ANY of the three buttons in whatever order YOU want, instead of always going in the exact same order of 1-2-3, just cause it wouldn't work any other way.

IMO pressing two buttons 5 times is boring as heck skill needed aside. It wouldn't even feel like a combo at that point. The game would be literally handholding you through the correct buttons to press instead of you actually hitting the correct buttons yourself. I find it would be easier to just spam 3 1 1 1 1 1 / 2 2 2 2 2 3 while doing actual hard mechanics instead of 6 1 2 3 4 5 / 7 8 9 5 4 6. One has way more room for error the other one is autopilot. That's just me though. If they go through with this I doubt it would be optional.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Pressing a GCD button max. 3 times in a row is too hard? Lol, that is something every caster (Ruin3, Broil/Stone4, Fire4)

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Yeah I'm pretty sure healers find their dps "rotation" incredibly dull though.

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Originally Posted by LunaTsukihime

Sigh, looks like I have to agree to disagree with the two lala posters...

But seriously, the game suffers right now from skill bloat, even after the Stormblood changes.

Combining at least the combos into an auto-advancing slot would help alleviate the space problem.

It's not about copy pasting the whole thing into pve but it's improvements.

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Similar to how Aion does combos?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If your current rotation is 8-3-6-5-11/12-1-2-4-11/12 or simplier 1-2-3-4-5/6-7-8-9-5/6 your new one would be 1-2-2-2-3/4-5-5-5-3/4 and not just 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2- or whatever you imagine there.
.

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rotations include much more than just the combo, making an even bigger argument for making combos into one button like they should be.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Yeah I'm pretty sure healers find their dps "rotation" incredibly dull though.

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Because healers have nothing else... they don't press it 3 times then switch to other set of GCDs, while weaving in damage oGCDs (well, only a few)... they just spam one skill.

Rather look at BLM who presses Fire4 3-4 times before refreshing their timer with Fire1...

I mean, we can do it the other way round. Would it be a great, engaging change when instead of those repetitive Fire4 there was a combo of skills Fire4a, Fire4b, Fire4c, Fire4d you'd have to use in that order?

So instead of F3-F4-F4-F4-F4-F1 you do F3-F4a-F4b-F4c-F4d-F1?

Let's assume for now that BLM works that way.... would you also say merging those skills
F4a: 220 pot
F4b: 100 pot; 250 pot, if used after F4a
F4c: 100 pot; 270 pot, if used after F4b
F4d: 100 pot; 300 pot, if used after F4c

into

F4: 260 pot

would be a bad change? And this is even a step further than only combo-consolidation (which would only be merging F4a-d into one button, but keeping the different potencies depending on how many you have cast).


Or, since you mentioned healer Rotation... would healer dps rotation be better when they had to cast?
Stone4a: 150 pot
Stone4b: 100 pot; 200 pot, if used after F4a
Stone4c: 100 pot; 270 pot, if used after F4b

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

rotations include much more than just the combo, making an even bigger argument for making combos into one button like they should be.

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Exactly. The "lost" buttons 6,7,8,9 would best be replaced by new oGCDs, resulting in the same ammount of different GCDs you do (just with less buttons), but with 3-4 more oGCDs to weave into your rotation.

A smart oGCD rotation is harder than a smart GCD rotation, i.e. lowering the ammount of GCD buttons while getting more oGCD buttons would make the rotation always more engaging.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Similar to how Aion does combos?

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Aion, Tera, PSO2.

A number of games, i dont want to turn FF into one of them obviously, but again, it would be a measure against the skillbloating that will happen with the next level cap increase unless SE only adds traits and THAT outcry i don't wanna hear.

Right now we DO have kind of a sweet spot, yes, stuff is okay-ish even tho personally DRG and MNK feel like a bit of a cluster*beep* skills-wise.
But look forward, lets add 5 more skills in the next expansion, and then another 5, see where this leads ?

A screen full cluttered of hotbars over the actual gameplay, dont think that that will be much fun.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

3 times in a row is too hard? Lol

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I don't think you have any reason to have this attitude? Did I personally do something to you to make you offended enough to mock me over my personal issue with my hands hurting due to repetitive pressing of the same button?

No where did I say that pressing the buttons themselves is "hard". I only said that it is "harder on my hands to repetitively press the same button" which means it causes me more discomfort and eventual soreness the more often I have to press the same button repeatedly with no variation. This isn't something I can control since I can't just look at my hands and tell them "hey, I demand you stop hurting because reasons!" and it is why I prefer the current system and I even stated I may be the only one with this particular problem when it comes to my hands I don't know, but my opinion is my opinion and you aren't going to change it so too bad.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Even if they would force it...this is a rather weak argument

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What argument? There is no argument there; just my opinion. I am not using it to argue anything only sharing my opinion and why I feel the way I do.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

would be a bad change? And this is even a step further than only combo-consolidation (which would only be merging F4a-d into one button, but keeping the different potencies depending on how many you have cast).

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I would liken BLM to combo consolidation as something like Fire IV giving AF3 and also firestarter and Blizzard IV giving UI3. So instead of even bothering to use Fire/F3/Blizzard III now you can just spam Fire IV, firestarter is just automatic on the same button instead of having to reach for another button and hit Blizzard IV once and throw in the thunder. Or to a macro that has the entire fire rotation that you just hit x times, and one with the entire blizzard phase that you hit x times instead of separate buttons and just reacting to the ogcd/class mechanics on the side. Kind of weird comparing a mostly hard casting class with no combos to a melee with actual combos though. It doesn't really work. The consolidation would actually make melees closer to current BLM though.

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Exactly. The "lost" buttons 6,7,8,9 would best be replaced by new oGCDs, resulting in the same ammount of different GCDs you do (just with less buttons), but with 3-4 more oGCDs to weave into your rotation.

A smart oGCD rotation is harder than a smart GCD rotation, i.e. lowering the ammount of GCD buttons while getting more oGCD buttons would make the rotation always more engaging.

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Except now you didn't actually save any buttons, you added more buttons, eventually it would be a wash. Replacing existing buttons and doing the consolidation is way better than removing them then just adding skills. (The thread is about button bloat).

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Originally Posted by LunaTsukihime

Aion, Tera, PSO2.

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I have a pretty solid chunk of experience with Tera and PSO2 so I can say a few things about the systems there. In tera their hotkey system is very similar to ours and there's only one class that can basically be reduced to one or two buttons. However that class also functions very poorly if you were to play it like that compared to manually using each skill from your hotkeys. It's inefficient and only the newbie players who don't know any better tend to use it. The rest hit their hotkeys individually for better results.

In pso2, early on people (including myself) simply used multiple weapon pallates with different PAs on them instead of using the less accurate and flexible chained PA system in most cases. As the game expanded it became more of a hit to effectiveness for people to use chained PAs and with the addition of the 3 button hotkey setup users had the option of doing away with the chain system alltogether. From what I've seen from those I play with personally as well as those who record videos the majority of the population has embraced the 3 button setup because it's more effective and flexible than the chained skill setup.

In both cases, this setup is actively avoided due to inflexibility/inefficiency and given the option most opted for a system closer to what we already have. Just some food for thought. As far as FF goes, as long as it's optional I wouldn't particularly mind but they would need to do some sweeping changes to the classes or there would be issues with people discriminating against those using the simplified setup because they would be at an objective disadvantage in exchange for the simplicity.

Not for all skills, but I do want this to happen for the combo skills that go 1-2-3. I mean who presses the 3rd button without starting at 1? Machinist is probably the only one (since it requires procs) that will need to be changed the most. Maybe not next expansion, but I reckon at 6.0 we will lose more skills. Changing the combo skills into 1 button is the best option in keeping the current skills. I do not want to lose more fun skills.

Pressing 1-2-3 is not harder then pressing 1-1-1, so please lets not use that excuse, because its bullocks.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

The idea behind the new PvP was not bad. But it was poorly implemented. Especially to reduce the complexitiy of each class to zero makes it even worse. When it comes to MCH, the MCH from Stormblood is actually fine now. Way better than its (boring) PvP-counterpart. I m sorry, but I cant imagine how to raid with the extreme simplified PvP-MCH. PvP is kinda broken right now. If you think, that new players can compete with experienced players now - think again! People still cant manage to press 11 buttons properly or even focus on one target... .

No! I dont want to have this in PvE! If you really think SE should make (the already simplified) PvE even more simple, you should play something else.

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I'm saying I don't want it in PvE, certainly not for MCH. Jobs with multiple combo trees may benefit from it, but neither MCH or BRD needed that change given that they don't have a linear combo. And trust me, I'm well aware of the difference between a newer PvPer and a veteran. I'm reminded of it every time I see or hear a MCH fully loading themselves out of heat generation for 3 shots before the match even begins, or watching them waste their aoe stun at a distance just to overheat.

Simplifying the system did nothing to help people learn.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Machinist is probably the only one (since it requires procs) that will need to be changed the most.

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Please no. The beauty of MCH is that our "combo" isn't linear. 1 procs 2 procs 3, independent of each other. Do I need a more potent 3? Quick Reload > 2, done! I don't need to go through the entire chain to get it. Not to mention 1-2-1-3-2-3 (the ideal way to proc your shots) is still a thing except in PvP, where now you HAVE to do 1-2-3.

MCH was already changed significantly from what it was, and only one expansion after being introduced. That shouldn't, and doesn't need to happen every expansion, and making MCH linear will be a huge step backward for the job.

I'm all for combos being put to a single button as in PvP.

I'm all for combo consolidation. Yes there are classes it won't work for, but for those that is will (all tanks, SAM, RED, and I think DRG) I see no reason to not do it. Still don't understand way people think 1-2-3 is better than 1-1-1.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Some reduction of skills so it all fits on 2 hotbars at most would be nice.

But I don't think it needs to be reduced like PVP to the point that it all fits on one bar.

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You can already fit virtually every job on 2 hotbars. (maybe 2 and a half with scholar/smn pet commands) and even then you hardly ever have to press R1 to actively change sets.

in my case my scholar swaps sets maybe once a minute. to drop shadow flare, hit deployment tactics, or put chain stratagem up. out side of those the only time I ever swap sets is when people have died and need reprotecting or if I need lucid dreaming or ruin 2s insta cast.

pld blm sam nin brd all the same. very very rarely have to change sets on any of them. and all. you can fit every job on 2 hotbars plus the expanded one.

anyone who needs more space than that or is swapping sets more than once or twice a minute must have some really illogical layouts going on

It's mind-boggling to me they haven't done this already. Too many GCD abilities exist only to lead into the next one in the case or combos, or exist when you get a proc. They are just wasted space, and without streamlining them means we'll see another "combat revamp" come 5.0 where abilities are deleted/merged with others to make room for new ones. At least by combining the combos/proc buttons together like in PVP we can maintain the amount of abilities we currently have, reduce bloat, and make room for more interesting abilities to complement jobs.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Even if they would force it...this is a rather weak argument, you know. What stops you from adding the same button onto two or more slots and pushing them in a variation of whatever sort you want? Even if 1-2-3 would bring the same result as 1-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-1-2, 3-1-2, 2-3-1 and about two dozens more...it's about you pushing different buttons, right? I'd say this is even better, since you could actually push ANY of the three buttons in whatever order YOU want, instead of always going in the exact same order of 1-2-3, just cause it wouldn't work any other way.

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What stops me? The fact they would inevitably add more abilities, thus taking up my hotbar real estate and forcing me to start mapping abilities to QERTFGZXC all to dumb down the combat even further. Like I said previously, people bitch and moan over how boring AoE rotations are. Consolidating our base combos essentially makes them into that. If they can make it so Geirskogul and Nastrond share a button dependent on DRG's gauge, they can implement new abilities in other ways. Or how about making our combos more interesting so Vorpal Thrust isn't just filler? There are plenty of better alternatives than spamming one button.

Regardless, this really wouldn't be an optional feature. Those of us who hate it either have to bloat their keyboard/hotbar space or grudgingly accept. Hence why we don't want it at all.

Edit:

Just for fun, I played around with possible alternatives for adding skills on DRG without needing to take away its combos.

- New Jumps that replace Jump and Spineshatter when procced off Fang & Claw or Wheeling Thrust
- Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel can now activate Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust, respectively, changing their effects
- Remove other redundant abilities like Piercing Talon or Heavy Thrust
- Merge Life Surge's effect into Vorpal Thrust
- Allow long duration oGCDs to have secondary abilities tied into them. Battle Litany sits doing nothing for three minutes. Having it switch to another ability not only saves hotbar space but adds activity to the job

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Allow long duration oGCDs to have secondary abilities tied into them. Battle Litany sits doing nothing for three minutes. Having it switch to another ability not only saves hotbar space but adds activity to the job

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This is something I've often thought even for ogcd that aren't quite that long. Some of the finishers for example could be merged with other skills as they all essentially spend 80% of a fight as redundant buttons and the vast majority or the remaining 20% on long cooldowns

Misery's end on a bard could for example replace bloodletter when its requirements are met. (target HP and cooldown this one isn't so bad anyway as its on a low cooldown once the the hp trigger is reached)

Or a ninja's assassinate could be tied to mug or jugulate. in a similar way. (whenever boss hp gets below 20% mug is switched to assassinate or something. mug itself has such a long cooldown for what it does sure they could do something more interesting with both of these..)

sams Ageha again. with its 60 second recast spends so much time being redundant. might get pressed twice in a fight if that.

If this happens, then you might as well dont play at all, this is like a very bad idea for pve.

I think those automatically hating on it don't understand it. It's not replacing any abilities, and you can still change combos as needed like how pvp manages the ninja combos.

I personally would like an OPTION to condense combos down (dont want to trigger the purists) like how you see it in pvp.

I'm a PC player who uses a controller since I started my FFXIV journey on PS4. I have zero issues with the system currently but I can see this as a welcome change as well.

A lot of us who PvP aren't very fond of it because it wasn't given as an option. Just one sudden blanket change.

I can accept if it's an option. 3.x PvP hotbar settings were an option and I didn't use it. WXHB is an option and I don't use it. This skill consolidation in PvP now? Forced and unchangeable. That's what we don't want.