Black Mage

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Originally Posted by BlackcatChen

>Black Mages and other raw DPS classes can mean the difference between hitting enrage or beating the boss, and the laughable attempt to downplay this and call BLM's role as a pure DPS as "bad" is somewhat foolish.

Other way around, you're absolutely wrong. There's a reason why the fastest clears all have the same comp. And that composition doesn't include a blm or sam, at all.

Personal DPS is not equal to raid DPS contribution.

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He also cherry picked the 'Max' section. As in, the "Got lucky on procs and crits" section with the "entire raid catered to me" section.

And even in -that- section, there's a Ninja sitting like 100 DPS under despite bringing some of the most important tools to speed running (Threat and Trick Attack)

Im upset, that SE didnt fix the issue: "cast fire 1 or 2 during ice-astral makes you lose Enochian completely"..., among other issues

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Im upset, that SE didnt fix the issue: "cast fire 1 or 2 during ice-astral makes you lose Enochian completely"..., among other issues

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I'm upset SE didn't even include any Blm adjustments to 4.1, instead buffed classes that were already in a decent spot.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

I'm upset SE didn't even include any Blm adjustments to 4.1, instead buffed classes that were already in a decent spot.

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yep, weird they more or less just buffed the Dps that are already in the "best for speed runs/max Dps" composition..

but looking forward to playing Smn as Alt atleast.., wonder if Smn changes will effectively boost its Dps too

nm the other "buffs", the Drg piercing debuff was nerfed, makes sense they buffed the other piercing dps for that reason

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

nm the other "buffs", the Drg piercing debuff was nerfed, makes sense they buffed the other piercing dps for that reason

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The "nerf" was to Heavy Thrust, which was dropped from 15% to 10% extra damage for DRG. Disembowel, which is what grants the piercing vulnerability debuff, had a slight potency increase. It's percentage remains unchanged, so still just as strong for BRD/MCH to feed off of.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

He also cherry picked the 'Max' section. As in, the "Got lucky on procs and crits" section with the "entire raid catered to me" section.

And even in -that- section, there's a Ninja sitting like 100 DPS under despite bringing some of the most important tools to speed running (Threat and Trick Attack)

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Just ignore that guy, he's using a mix of verity + nq crafted gear. I'm sure blm is fine for him if all he is doing is expert roulette, and dont even care enough to get hq crafted gear.

QoL problem with 4.1: Firestarter counts as a self-applied buff, but Thundercloud does not. Even if you split your status bar into three, you’re stuck searching among your food and FC buffs to check your thundercloud timer.

EDIT: If you use Sharpcast, Thundercloud goes with Firestarter and Swiftcast and so on. If it procs "naturally", Thundercloud goes with your food buffs and such.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

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Well said.

Personally, after playing SAM and BRD in 4.x, while I still love the idea of BLM, it just feels so clunky and punishing* by comparison, with nothing in terms of damage potential (well, maybe with crazy good RNG) or utility to make the job otherwise feel fun and satisfying to play**.

* The BLM rotation only really flows when you can stand still (and / or know exactly when you need to move), with most unexpected interruptions forcing you to cut things short, extend your rotation with an unplanned swift/triple Blizzard / Fire, or use Transpose which is almost as bad as dropping your stacks (and desperately needs a shorter cooldown). SAM’s by comparison can do their rotation in almost any order, with a range of tools for dealing with mechanics and next to zero punishment for interruptions.

** The only thing BLM brings is DPS, so if you can't DPS effectively while playing a BLM (as frequently happens when learning / dealing with mechanics) it just feels bad. By comparison, playing a BRD (or PLD, or RDM), you bring a range of party buffs and utility, so even if you're personal DPS isn't great, by supporting the party it still feels good to play.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

I'm upset SE didn't even include any Blm adjustments to 4.1, instead buffed classes that were already in a decent spot.

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We got a cooldown reduction on Mana Shift; BLM mana battery FTW ?? Seriously though, I was at least expecting a cooldown reduction on Transpose (and hoping for a few other QoL changes to make things flow better in encounters that aren't just a striking dummy).

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Originally Posted by Kairi-L

https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/98584

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Because my static doesn't release parses. Not an argument.

Why? You may be surprised to hear this, but. Not everyone uses parsers. Shocking, I know. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure there's something in the ToS about using parses to attack people?

Also, numbers can be fudged.

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Originally Posted by TsuKoj

Just ignore that guy, he's using a mix of verity + nq crafted gear. I'm sure blm is fine for him if all he is doing is expert roulette, and dont even care enough to get hq crafted gear.

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"NQ" Crafted Gear.

https://i.imgur.com/YjTWqzJ.png

Clearly Normal Quality and mostly Verity.

https://i.imgur.com/k5cVmKx.png

Totally normal quality! I'm such a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad DPS! It's not like the accuser is dishonest at all, guys!

And yes, I do have verity gear. The gloves, because I am saving for the Genji Gloves for cast speed. The bracelet, however has no real excuse beyond laziness and slight boredom regarding FFXIV. Hell, I even overmelded my weapon to make up the difference for now.

As for "cherry picking", certainly you can make the argument that's the case, if the information didn't stay consistent in the regard of BLM generally being in the top 4 in terms of damage.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=99

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=95

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=80

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#

How low do you want to go? I mean, seriously, how low do you want to go? The information remains pretty consistent even into the 75%, where BLM is shown to be in the top 4. Beating it are Monks (who have always had high damage), Summoner (which has a pretty damn high skill ceiling to compliment its high skill floor) and Samurai.

But again, the numbers also don't lie. The argument that "personal" DPS doesn't matter as much as "contribution" is worthless, considering all those comps still rely on somewhat hard hitting DPSes being given higher damage through support.

That said, BLM could use a boost in its damage, to bring it closer to the contributions that Samurai brings and to make up for the clunkiness that Black Mage has always been used to.

^^^ Yikes...

>But again, the numbers also don't lie. The argument that "personal" DPS doesn't matter as much as "contribution" is worthless, considering all those comps still rely on somewhat hard hitting DPSes being given higher damage through support.

Yeah, they don't. Personal DPS does not equal raid DPS contribution.

"But again, the numbers also don't lie. The argument that "personal" DPS doesn't matter as much as "contribution" is worthless, considering all those comps still rely on somewhat hard hitting DPSes being given higher damage through support."

If this statement were true, then the fastest kills (those with the highest overall raid DPS) wouldn't be consistently compromised of classes NOT in the top 4 "hard hitting DPSes" that you linked.

A black mage’s unique contribution to a raid is how much higher their dps is than the baseline. That comes out not just in hitting harder gcd for gcd, but also in getting a bigger absolute benefit from other party members’ damage buffs.

There definitely exists some margin by which “greedy” dps like blms could exceed “generous” dps like bards that would make them worth bringing. For instance, if a black mage did literally double the damage a bard or dragoon boasted, the vast amount of damage that ast cards, dragon eye tethers, etc could add would outweigh the benefits of bringing yet another party buffer. The question is, how big is that margin?

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

But again, the numbers also don't lie. The argument that "personal" DPS doesn't matter as much as "contribution" is worthless, considering all those comps still rely on somewhat hard hitting DPSes being given higher damage through support.

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All you have to do is factor the RDPS contribution from each of those jobs, and they'd easily be pushing Black Mage down into the 7, 8, or even 9th place.

The issue with just linking the bar graphs, especially the 'overall' bar graph is that you're subject to information without context. Two encounters in particular skew the 'overall' picture, Catastrophe (which favors ranged) and Halicarnassus (Where black mages scumbag with AOE).

Yes. It's Scumbag AOE, because the LB3 basically eliminates the ninjas sans 5%, so any damage dealt to them exceeding that threshold is done solely for the parse. It can be as little as none (if the Black Mage is the LB) to as much as +400-450 to the final tally of a Halicarnassus run. All of which is effectively meaningless damage, fun as it may be to spam Fouls, Thunderclouds, and flares.

Ranking is meaningless when the difference between them is not only made up by party buffs, but eclipses them as well. Sure, Black mage might fight for top 4 in some fights. But why would you want to bring that when it just amounts to, maybe, 200 more DPS that is more than made up for with say, a Machinist. It's not only comparable damage in the end, but additional MP (which itself can translate to more damage via Bards and Foe, healers basically being able to ignore MP management, Paladins and Holy Spirit).

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Originally Posted by Ferrinus

There definitely exists some margin by which “greedy” dps like blms could exceed “generous” dps like bards that would make them worth bringing. For instance, if a black mage did literally double the damage a bard or dragoon boasted, the vast amount of damage that ast cards, dragon eye tethers, etc could add would outweigh the benefits of bringing yet another party buffer. The question is, how big is that margin?

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You ultimately cannot balance with this philosophy. You either create a scenario where the job is mandatory because the damage advantage is insurmountable, or you have the scenario now, where you might be able to provide more 'baseline' dps, but the margin is so low you might as well bring something else, that not only is in the same damage range, but has more utility to boot.

5% is about the range where it's an insignificant amount, certainly not worth the 'pure cannon' tax on utility and other tools, and 15% is about the point where it starts getting into an unhealthy advantage. Anything in between might balance out with RDPS contribution, but you then still have the issue where the contribution to the bottom line is so close, you might as well just bring the Summoner -because they boost everyone else- or the Red mage because they have unrivaled recovery in bad situations.

You do realize there'll always be a meta where a job will be better than the others for w/e reason right?

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Originally Posted by Remedi

You do realize there'll always be a meta where a job will be better than the others for w/e reason right?

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And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Attention, Square Enix: The logic that pure damage can somehow outweigh party utility/buffs MUST STOP. Also, check yourselves because SMN (supposedly "lower damage" than BLM) is ALREADY doing higher damage than most BLMs, and you're about to buff them further.

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the only thing which has to be stopped is this rumor...

funny how top tier cls' always get a shot if they got company - with this changes smn and blm are getting closer for the majority of the playerbase with a casual skill-level. just fair not more.

even before 4.1 in my opinion Eirene Snow and his few buddys in the top ranking list should have OUTDPS any other caster cause of the effort they were able to master - but we know it hadn't worked like that. for me those current changes just pushed the casual lvl on pair with blm and rdm but might be a reward for those who know the cls in out to climb even higher. those few on top just deserve to beat blm/rdm now - IF it really comes to this situation.

well time will tell like always ^^

I'm a BRD main and I agree that BLM does need some love. I'm in the one comp that would prefer if I was something else. My co-dps are NIN/RDM/BLM, and Foes/crit simply isn't enough for them. SMN's Contagion alone would be far better for both of our casters if I swapped to it. The problem is this is such a niche comp to begin with that it's hard to tell if it's even worth it compared to the ideal comp that is DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD. I don't think standard raid utility's the way to go about it. Something like MNK's Brotherhood would be better for BLM. Or giving a weaker Enochian effect to allies while you maintain it. Like Foes, but constant.

I'd love to see fire IV's potency increased and its cast time reduced to 2.5s too. Currently the old ARR rotation isn't a big hit to your dps for the flexibility it gains while you're learning a fight. You can do a good chunk of prog with BLM by simply swapping to that rotation once new things hit you. I'd like for that to remain, but using Fire IV to its fullest extent should be encouraged more by buffing it.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

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Beign loud means nothing if you don't tackle the real problems, most of the smn in the forum had no integrity or they would have understood that using aetherskills during DWT was never the intention of the devs, why I say this? Because when they presented HW SMN they told them what was their intention for it, as such when they found out it wasn't working that way they should have tipped the dev on that, they didn't and they got shafted and now they are still moaning about all of that like kids.
And this is the reasons also why BRD and MCH got buffed to extreme levels during HW.
Beside all of that you should know that ppl will find ANY excuse to bring a class over another, sometimes is just better not to give in to certain deviations that are community driven. So far I see here mostly moans and no real discussions on how to identify and possibly fix eventually problems, but mostly ppl accusing each other about who's a pro raider or who's not

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

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"everything" we asked for? well not at all although all the changes a quite nice - they absolutely skipped the MAIN problem and the real issue out in the fog. SMN & MCHs (even MNK like I learned shortly) problems aren't dps or to compete with their rival cls' - their main issue is the "feeling" of clunkiness (for most of the com). so no we haven't got "everything" we asked for, especially not the most important thing: a Bahamut-rework. He's still an Enton-like Lemming... "oh move... where to? ah left... *dangle* *dangle* oh... atk ah na just move on *dangle*... Enton? Enton. Enton!" : /

on a sidenote:
isn't it kinda weird that although we have another caster now - discussions about caster balance are still based on the comparison of Blm vs. Smn but rarely about Blm vs. Rdm - im just wondering why. If Blm are on top Smns cry, if Smns get buffed Blms cry. I assume Rdms are just smiling about those never-ending e-penis war between Blm & Smn... ^^'

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Originally Posted by Neela

"everything" we asked for? well not at all although all the changes a quite nice - they absolutely skipped the MAIN problem and the real issue out in the fog. SMN & MCHs (even MNK like I learned shortly) problems aren't dps or to compete with there rival cls' - there main issue is the "feeling" of clunkiness. so no we don't have got "everything" we asked for especially not the most important thing. : /

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It said "pretty much everything" as in maybe not everything but most of it. I don't play Smn, I have no clue what you guys problems were or are. I just used it as an example for the fact that there are several high used threads about it and stuff got addressed. No need to be angry at me for saying what I see.
And I was just answering to someone who basically told us to do what we've been doing for a long time, be quiet and hope it gets better. It did not. Blm keeps getting overlooked.

well Blm will never be "overlooked" for long - as we all know its the ceos cls. so maybe she's right they will take a look at blm for sure. saying that im not angry nor ive meant to be. but its kinda hypercritical to say "they got all the want" even if the things were just minor fixes compared to where the problem really lies. It's not that Smn now is on top of the world without any issues - they got more flexibility and mobility yes, but it was always intended to be like this before Rdm dropped - now they got their base-advantage back or even tweaked and everybody screams it is way to powerful.... : /

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

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It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

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Originally Posted by BlackcatChen

It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

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That's also an effct of ppl not beign good at analyzing what a job should do and mostly asking for dmg buff for their selfish reason, WAR got an unnecessary newe CD that just upset tank balance because they brought nothing to the party.
Guess what they were meant to bring nothing but their dps and defense.
Saying that it's unfair that Ranged dps bring many buff or that BLM doesn't bring a raise to the table won't really solve anything, if dmg is the problem then maybe yes a dmg buff needs to be done, however do take notice that you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.
Also you need to consider how badly jobs are compared to each other really, what is really broken is when a job is so bad that you cannot complete the figth with not when you cannot complete the fight asap, that just invokes unnecessary power creeps

Also tbh I don't consider shadewalker as needed as before now that shirk is a thing tbh

edit: BTW when actually the SMN getting so high on the logs happened? before of after radiant shield dmg was beign accredited to them? last time I checked it was 3-4 weeks after savage release and it wasn't like that, maybe just maybe that is something to look at

So then... what are the criteria for judging balance between DPS jobs?

How is it not affected by these factors?
- how fast the job helps you kill a fight
- how a job is affected by fight mechanics
- the resources a job helps replenish so that a run can keep going smoothly
- mitigation and defensive utility to help you clear or help with healer damage
- external utility hate or battle res

It doesn't take a genius to note that black mage is worse in every single one of these categories.

If you are worried about job identity isn't the fix obvious? Give BLM more damage.

It isn't the worse in all of the factors in fact:
You have better personal defensive Cds than other ranged and casters
Also you are not as affected by dying than SMN for example, giving them easier to summon pets doesn't change that yiou lose everything in the demi bahamut department, as a BLM you get set back by at worst 30 secs

So no it's not worse in all those instances, pls we do not need exaggeration we need facts, also you haven't answered me either

Instead of giving BLM utility, thus changing their identity, I say they make caster comps competitive. I'd love to see comps with SMNs + BLMs working together because they synergize very well. That 10% damage buff for 15 secs on a 60 sec CD from Contagion would be awesome... rather than having all casters fight for 1 single spot in a party.

As it stands, physical damage is so good that many high-end statics don't even take a caster. The way I would go about fixing the current design of the game would take a while, but I believe it would work.

Right now, NIN is amazing. Trick attack is awesome, their personal dps is solid, and their enmity tools and slash debuff (assuming no WAR) allow the tanks to do much more. So its hard not taking one if you're trying to be optimal. That said, what 3 dps go best with NIN? The trio of DRG, BRD, and MCH is insane. BRD and MCH provide amazing rDPS increases and DRG is able to give them both a pretty much 100% up time ~4% increase to their damage via the pierce debuff on top of the rest of utility DRG brings to the table. So long as DRG is the only class that brings a pierce debuff, this will remain the case and NIN+DRG+MCH+BRD will always be the meta, while swapping out BRD or MCH for RDM for progression will be meta pending on which is better at the time.

My solution to the issue would be to introduce a new Tank to the game, either in 4.whatever or next expansion, that was able to apply a pierce debuff. I was thinking Templar from FF Tactics. This would allow caster comps to function because you would no longer be required to take DRG for the pierce debuff and you would have 1-2 slots open for DPS.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

however do take notice that you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.

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This isn't even about BLM should be on top of the speedkill meta. This is about BLMs not being brought to speedkills at all. Hell, there are even top 10 speedkills for o3s that has RDMon it, a job that is a borderline burden past progression which is only saved by Embolden, a utility/rdps skill, and have skills that benefit from Disembowel.

To make matters worse, they gave SMN, another "utility" job that somehow gets ahead of the selfish BLM, a raid buff of all things! This violates SE's whole "utilitiy dps have less personal dps than selfish ones" monologue.

While I agree that balancing around speedkills is not something everyone agrees on, but SE should take notice why nobody takes this one job for competitive PVE and act on it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You ultimately cannot balance with this philosophy. You either create a scenario where the job is mandatory because the damage advantage is insurmountable, or you have the scenario now, where you might be able to provide more 'baseline' dps, but the margin is so low you might as well bring something else, that not only is in the same damage range, but has more utility to boot..

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I’m not seeing where you can’t balance with this philosophy. You yourself have just implicitly offered ten (or twelve, or thereabouts) as an acceptable benchmark. If we wanted to do some more advanced napkin math, we could just assume that generous dps offer a 5% (or something; I’m sure the reality is lower, and might exclude the dps themselves) on-average global boost with a 4k baseline and solve 4*4000*1.05^4 = 3*4000*1.05^3 + X * 1.05^3.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.

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The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

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I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.
I do agree that a dmg buff could solve some problems, but as other have pointed there's also the fact that melee synergy or ranged synergy are simply better.
In theory SMN having high dmg would help BLM+SMN comp, however that is not the case as we know or maybe it hasn't been tested enough.
Anyway seems to me that now the discussion is going somewhere at least, which was my intention

This thread has descended into a mess, go figure, so I'll just repeat a third time what I said before.

Stop bringing up "the meta" "it's doing fine" and "it's good enough for me/the playerbase" in this thread. The bottom line is that its entire modus operandi is false (damage as utility) because the other caster that it is supposed to out-damage by that logic (Summoner) is STRONGER AND has utility, and now even more utility since yesterday's patch.

This needs to be addressed before ultimate coil at least, if not immediately.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.
I do agree that a dmg buff could solve some problems, but as other have pointed there's also the fact that melee synergy or ranged synergy are simply better.
In theory SMN having high dmg would help BLM+SMN comp, however that is not the case as we know or maybe it hasn't been tested enough.
Anyway seems to me that now the discussion is going somewhere at least, which was my intention

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Recovery from death becomes proper utility when a sac is used as a strategy (A4S, A8S), and early prog (an environment where RDM would be better, by far). The other reason why a BLM/SMN comp is not too valuable is because Ifrit is simply better than Garuda right now, and Ifrit also helps the naturally better physical comps as a plus. You also lose out on Ranged defensive and resource utility, which is strictly better.

As for ranged, most problems seem to stem from balancing around not having Disembowel. But because of how this game is right now... you're going to have it in an 8 man party. When they have Disembowel, their damage becomes dangerously close to casters despite being kings of utility. And because we don't have any proper distinction between a Caster and Ranged other than "one has cast times", there's no real reason not to use double ranged. Because it simply does more damage, more utility, and resource management. And since double ranged is this good and works proper because of DRG, now DRG is a staple. Especially since Litany synergizes with BRD. Simply getting rid of Disembowel would make both DRG and ranged provide less damage, and help steer the game off the double ranged boat it has been in since 3.3.

As for the NIN change I suggested, the reasoning is very simple. Trick Attack being 10% has always been ridiculous. They have been dominating their slot forever. They've contributed more damage than any other job since they were released. And they don't just help a single role, that 10% for 17%+ of the fight goes for everyone. Most larger buffs got nerfed, but Trick stayed 10%. I noted Shadewalker because it definitely allows a tank to use less/no hate combo and tank stance, improving the DPS of the raid further. It still has a big effect, even now that Shirk exists. I've seen several tanks try to play like they have Shadewalker, in a PF with no NIN. Some unsuspecting SAM ends up getting hit in the face, even using Diversion on cooldown. It would also even force BLM to take diversion over apocatastasis or mana shift (you ain't getting rid of addle or swiftcast) for the same reasons, even though you're already saving lucid dreaming for hate.

Bringing DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH balance in line helps several classes. It helps MNK and SAM over DRG and NIN. It helps BLM/SMN/RDM over BRD and MCH. Right now replacing any one of those classes is a clear loss, and something should definitely happen to make party choice a bit more variable. We've had the same god comp since 3.3, something has to change.

As for when SMN got good personal damage, I have already answered this (and many other concerns you had) earlier in this thread. I've been repeating myself a lot.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.

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While I do agree SMN get punished really hard by death, if we're speaking about playing perfectly we can pretty much assume death is not a big factor. Whatever the class is, 1min+ of weakness is enough to ruin your performance.


BLM tends to get punished a lot more for small mistakes. Forgot about the precise timing on a mechanic preventing you from casting (which could be hard to track due to a flexible rotation) and you may end up either losing a few DPS by being forced to fire I instead of 4, or if this happens during the Fire 1 cast (about 1 chance over 4) you may end up having to transpose and lose a lot more.

I would argue that BLM is one of the hardest class in the game to play perfectly as you have to not only have the whole fight planned in advance but also to adapt on the flight to a flexible rotation, 6min into a fight you can't even plan ahead if you'll be in ice or fire even if you're a very consistent player.

Also data seems to agree on this, the lower the percentile is, the more lacking BLM dps tends to be compared to every other classes in the game. Sure at the top level if you're looking at 99+ percentile (or even MAX damage which is meaningless but a lot of people seems to focus on it) BLM may seems in a good spot, but at this point you're comparing classes played perfectly with luck on the side of the players and maybe some catering.
When looking below at still good parses like 90 percentile (reminder that this is the top 10% of raiders, further skewed by having usually more good players parsing than casuals), and BLM start to stop being competitive even on personal damage. at below 70 percentile it falls behind monk, and at very low percentile like 20 which still represent 1/5 of the player base have BLM as the third WORSE PERSONNAL damage.

As a PF group leader, why would I try to take a BLM which even if slightly above average like 60percentile is either doing 5% less damage than a SAM with the same utility, or doing slightly lower damage than a SMN or a MNK both of which have some offensive and defensive utilities ?
lets face it for a purely selfish dps class to even deserve a spot it needs to do more damage than all other classes with utility, a bit like SAM is doing (and arguably this isn't even enough)

Wyti gets it, sorta

Adding from above regarding performance per skill level, that is no way implying that BLM should be top dps even for the underperformers but rather is trying to prove how SMNs at their 4.05 state has been outputting more damage starting from the lowest of skill levels. How do you think SMNs will do now that SE effectively removed their mana management issues and gave them a party wide buff?

To not further derail this into SMN vs BLM, let me remind you the thread is about the propaganda that is utility deals less pdps than a selfish dps

Yes any job can do well in ffxiv, but for some people fine isn't good enough, each class should have a distinct identity and be competitive. Right now blm is neither. They lost their identity as the biggest single hit damage to sam. They were never the best greedy dps, always behind mnk before, now behind sam. They have no identifying utility like trick, foes etc. And now smn is sneaking up on the highest damage mage identity while having radiant shield, contagion, devotion, and raise it causes people to be upset.

Casters are already in a bad spot and being the worst caster of the 3 options makes it even worse. Fact is in prog most groups since heavensward were already saying they only bring a caster in case there's a magic only mechanic shows how bad casters have been for a long time now.

All that and guess what, blm is reliant on people to play around them, craft strategies around them, reliant on others to buff for them. Blm are the poster boy for "healers adjust". And why would people choose to do that extra work when the class brings negligible extra damage, zero raid benefits, have anti-synergy with many openers due to a lack of a true burst phase, and have anti-progression due to the extra difficulty of learning new fights.