Please Restrict tank classes from wearing strength jewelry.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I just think its absolutely hilarious that the entire argument for wanting STR on Fending accessories boils down to:
I want to do more dps for the sake of doing more dps.

Is the lack of STR right side preventing you from clearing content due to tight DPS checks? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

If Tanks end up requiring a damage boost to clear content, The best way to handle it is to increase the Tenacity effect accordingly. But for as long as the reason people want more STR is "i wanna do bigger numbers cos i like big numbers", nothing is going to happen.

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I agree but they need to help out damage when you solo fates etc somehow.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The biggest problem is that SE half-assed the fix. They obviously want tanks to wear VIT accessories. All higher-level STR accessories are restricted from being worn by tanks, so that really does seem to be the path SE is aiming for: all VIT, all the time. But then they went and left older STR accessories equipable... That was just dumb.

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They've probably left them usable because they didn't nerf the overtuned DPS checks in HW Savages, AFAIK. So anyone who doesn't have Stormblood and wants to continue doing Savage would find it incredibly hard in full VIT. Likewise when you do those Savages at 70, You'll get synced. But you'd then need to also equip the STR stuff to beat the check.

If your tank died in three hits just because of STR right-side then... it's more than just their accessories that are causing the issue. I've run many dungeons with tanks in Slaying accessories and, beside two time, I never have trouble keeping them up.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Technically true, but it increases your survivability by a fixed amount, namely those HP you get from them. It amounts to a little less than one single Benefic II for the healer over the course of the fight. That's fairly negligible.

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Using cooldowns amounts to a fixed amount as well, is that negligible?

Look I am sorry....but it really is time to move on STR minded tanks on this. It is not going to happen....this is not HW, this is SB! We are tanks.....nothing more, nothing less. If you want to focus on doing damage....there are plenty of DPS roles to pick from that will happily suit you. Come patch 3.05.....all your STR accessories you put on will be unusable as a tank.....so get use to it now!

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Using cooldowns amounts to a fixed amount as well, is that negligible?

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Fallacy. Using cooldowns does not amount to a fixed amount - it's highly variable.

For one, healing scales with mitigation, it does not however scale with health. 100 HP on a target with 50% mitigation is worth 200 health, 100 HP on a target with 0 mitigation is worth 100 HP. That means that the amount of EHP you get will depend on the healing you receive. And this is part of what makes cooldowns so very much better than HP. If you have 50% mitigation and pop Rampart, you will end up at 60% mitigation. Before, every point of healing received was worth 2 points of EHP - afterwards, every point of healing received is worth 2,5 EHP. So a Benefic II healing for 10000 no longer restores 20000 effective HP, but 25000 effective HP.

Further, the amount of EHP from cooldowns depends on the incoming damage. That's easiest to grasp if you look at hallowed ground. It is 100% mitigation for 10 seconds. If you use it on one enemy that normally hits you for 1000 DPS, you get 10000 HP out of it. If you use it on 10 enemies that hit for 1000 DPS, you get 100000 HP out of it. Divide by (1-mitigation%) to get the EHP you'd get from that.

That aside: Let's be real. A healer can create several MILLION nominal HP in a single fight. That in itself will ensure that health is a dead useless stat. Their potential at creating HP completely dwarfs anything your gear can provide. That's why health only serves one purpose: A buffer for burst. Whether you have 13k health more or not when like 95% of your effective HP will come from the healer anyway is just completely irrelevant. All you need to make sure is that the healer can still do their job, so you gotta prevent insta-gib. But anything else is a waste.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

We are tanks.....nothing more, nothing less. If you want to focus on doing damage....there are plenty of DPS roles to pick from that will happily suit you.

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We are tanks, sure. We are also a part of the team and as such are commited to do anything for the success of the run/bosskill. If that means doing as much dps as you can than that is what you should be doing. Saying youre just a tank and here to just tank is, frankly, rather passive and mediocre.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

snip.

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You might notice i never said anything about CDs scaling with Healing. That part is true.
However, from pure EHP standpoint CDs are offering fixed amounts of EHP, with that amount increasing the more HP you have. Having more HP not only passively boosts your EHP but also makes your CDs provide more of it.
The discussion in this thread was about tanks dying too fast, and the arguments were that more HP wouldnt have saved them anyway and that is factually wrong.

Fun fact - V3 boss can crit with autos for 20k and full STR tanks right now have around 36k hp.

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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Uh... if the tank dies to three mobs. Fending wouldn't have saved him. That is simply an idiot who likely didn't rotate cooldowns or was woefully undergeared for the dungeon. I have had plenty of tanks in Slaying accessories survive just fine. A friend did the Shisui mega pull with full Slaying and handled it just fine. While that shouldn't be the expectation for everyone, Slaying accessories isn't necessarily the issue. That being said, they should just have left well enough alone and not gone back to STR to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Fun fact - V3 boss can crit with autos for 20k and full STR tanks right now have around 36k hp.

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Which is a completely survivable. I know plenty who have tanked that fight with all Slaying along with Susano, Lakshmi (extremes) and Shinryu. And yes, the healers could still DPS. You just have to be more on point with your CDs. A lot of tanks aren't, thus when they throw on Slaying gear. They get themselves killed.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Which is a completely survivable. I know plenty who have tanked that fight with all Slaying along with Susano, Lakshmi (extremes) and Shinryu. And yes, the healers could still DPS. You just have to be more on point with your CDs. A lot of tanks aren't, thus when they throw on Slaying gear. They get themselves killed.

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Sigh, did i say it wasnt survivable? Susano, Lakshmi and Shinryu are easy in slaying, since you can predict a burst. Pray tell me how do you predict a burst from an autoattack?

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Originally Posted by Jazmyn

I agree but they need to help out damage when you solo fates etc somehow.

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That's the purpose of your Chocobo.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

However, from pure EHP standpoint CDs are offering fixed amounts of EHP, with that amount increasing the more HP you have.

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That isn't correct, though. The EHP you get from cooldowns directly depends on how much damage you take during the duration, not how much max health you have. If you take no damage, you gain zero effective HP from them. And you can take far more damage than you have max health during the duration thanks to healing. That is because cooldowns are temporary.

As for tanks dying too fast: IIRC, we're talking of sustained damage. If someone is one-shot, it's obvious healers cannot act there. But for sustained damage, whether you die or not depends on whether the healer can keep up with the incoming damage or not. If they can't, you'll die. Your accessories don't matter, because the healer cannot keep up. If they can, you won't die. Again, your accessories won't matter. They only matter under once circumstance: You die if the pack one-shots you, for example because all autoattacks of them come at once. Then it becomes a burst scenario. But if that's not the case, the accessories are irrelevant to your survival. The skill of the healer is the important factor here.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

By all means, optimize your DPS, push yourself to get your rotation as perfect as possible, But understand that there is a ceiling on your damage dictated by gear. The same ceiling that DDs have. We don't see DDs on the forums screeching for more DPS because they just want bigger numbers.
The developers screwed the DPS checks in Heavensward, they admitted that.

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That is a false equivalent. Damage dealers receive full benefits for all gear they equip. Tanks, currently, do not. Their damage is scaled on a stat their entire right side lacks. No other role has such a handicap. Furthermore, mitigation and threat management are a binary threshold. Anything above that threshold is worthless. What you're essentially saying is tanks should be satisfied once they have aggro, which is among the easiest and most basic things to build. Put simply, it's boring.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

The reason we got the VIT AP scaling was SE slapping down the STR Tanks and forcing them to wear VIT gear without breaking their ability to clear the overtuned Savages they admit to having broken.

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Only Gordias was overtuned while Creator was considerably easier than either of the raids preceding it. The only reason for this change is because the devs chose a lazy way of implementing their Weakness and Brick changes. Instead of it functioning as a debuff, it reduces your stats directly, thus tanks wouldn't have been impacted as severely.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You'll never convince me to cut up to 12k HP off myself to push out a measly 500 dps more. I don't care what the 'Meta' wants me to do. I'll Tank in the way that i feel most comfortable doing so.
If your Static wants to use STR accessories to squeeze that lil extra dps out, go for it. What you do in your own static is entirely up to you and what you've worked out with your friends.
But for random parties? Just play it safe. A run with no wipes will always be faster than wiping because there was a disconnect between the Tank and Healers expectations of each other.

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Does that also apply to healers not DPSing? After all, it's safer if they do nothing but heal you. In fact, baby pulls make it even safer!

See. We can push safety to its logical extremes and make dungeon content extremely boring, albeit entirely devoid of risk. Funny thing is, you will actually take longer doing the above than had you wiped once. A far better solution is to ask if the healer can handle it or simply pull slightly less than everything.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

If Tanks end up requiring a damage boost to clear content, The best way to handle it is to increase the Tenacity effect accordingly. But for as long as the reason people want more STR is "i wanna do bigger numbers cos i like big numbers", nothing is going to happen.

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Which is why you are seeing less and less tanks. While some may prefer the "tanks should only worry about aggro" philosophy. That isn't how this game is built. Nothing hits remotely hard enough to necessitate a lot of mitigation hence why people prioritize damage the way they do. You can't remove what many tanks consider the "fun" secondary attribute of their job and expect them to shrug it off. That all said, if the damage scaling on Tenacity wasn't laughable. This wouldn't be an issue. So the devs have a fairly simple option.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

snip.

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EHP is irrelevant to incoming damage, its a value of what damage you can take before you die.

You have 1000 hp. You use Rampart. Now you have 1200 EHP.
You have 1000 hp. You equip an accessory with 200 hp. Now you have 1200 EHP.

Amusing fact - at 36000 hp with slaying you will get more EHP from equipping all Vit accessories compared to using Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Sigh, did i say it wasnt survivable? Susano, Lakshmi and Shinryu are easy in slaying, since you can predict a burst. Pray tell me how do you predict a burst from an autoattack?

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You don't need to. Cure II heals for well over 10,000. Combined with Regen, that auto attack will be healed through on a single cast. Tanks can pull 10+ mobs at once while in Slaying, which does considerably more damage than V3's auto attack.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You don't need to. Cure II heals for well over 10,000. Combined with Regen, that auto attack will be healed through on a single cast. Tanks can pull 10+ mobs at once while in Slaying, which does considerably more damage than V3's auto attack.

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+10 mobs die in a matter of seconds. V3 does not.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

+10 mobs die in a matter of seconds. V3 does not.

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I see you ignored the part where a single GCD/oGCD and Regen will have the tank back to full almost immediately. You're acting like it's not in any way survivable when tanks are doing and healers are still able to DPS. So... that 19,000 auto attack isn't impacting much.

The only HP requirement is having enough to survive all the incoming damage relative to how much the healer can heal through. As tanks can survive everything the current normal mode raids dish out while in Slaying, there isn't a need for Fending. This only applies for more experienced tanks, of course.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I see you ignored the part where a single GCD/oGCD and Regen will have the tank back to full almost immediately. You're acting like it's not in any way survivable when tanks are doing and healers are still able to DPS. So... that 19,000 auto attack isn't impacting much.

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If 2 autoattacks are capable of killing you, healers or rather at least 1 healer has to babysit you.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

That's the purpose of your Chocobo.

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I believe Jazmyn is addressing the solo issue independent of the Chocobo. The Chocobo should be additional damage on top of your damage, not supplementary damage because 1/2 of your gear does nothing for your damage.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

If 2 autoattacks are capable of killing you, healers or rather at least 1 healer has to babysit you.

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I suppose all those tanks and healers who aren't having this perceived problem are a myth then? Those auto attacks aren't going to hit fast enough to ever kill you due to constant HoT up time most healers have. I have done V3 with a full Slaying tank and the healer had no issues keeping them up nor did they have to baby them.

Hey pro-STR tank players. What about the fact literally everything can crit you? How do your fixed percentage of heals and mitigation handle RNG?

Imean, unless there is an exploit STR tanks have collectively found in which Awareness lasts more than 25 seconds and has a shorter than 2 minute cooldown like it does for every other tank player, I feel like game RNG is setting these fixed HP damage and mitigation arguments on fire.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I suppose all those tanks and healers who aren't having this perceived problem are a myth then? Those auto attacks aren't going to hit fast enough to ever kill you due to constant HoT up time most healers have. I have done V3 with a full Slaying tank and the healer had no issues keeping them up nor did they have to baby them.

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I hope youre not seriously trying to argue that a possible death of a tank from 2 autoattacks does not warrant undivided attention of at least 1 healer.

And ive tanked it in slaying as well, just for the record.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And then when people actually do that and complain about the queues, the same people that told them to play a DPS then end up telling them to just play a tank/healer if they dislike the queues.

You just can't win there.

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In case you hadn't noticed people on the forums (and some in game) simply blame everyone else for their issues. DPS blame the tanks and healer, healers blame tanks and DPS, tanks blame healers and DPS. The funny part is, if everyone did their own job 90% of the problems would evaporate.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

I hope youre not seriously trying to argue that a possible death of a tank from 2 autoattacks does not warrant undivided attention of at least 1 healer.

And ive tanked it in slaying as well, just for the record.

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I am saying you are overestimating the healing requirements. For one, she is not constantly auto attacking and both healers putting their single target HoTs on the main tank will tick for approximately 6,000 HP every three seconds. Factor in party wide damage is typically handled by aoe HoTs while Assize/Earthly Star should be weaved in regularly and the damage will easily be covered. None of this even counts tanks own ability to self heal. You're presuming tanks will be hit back to back for 19,000, thus requiring an immediate heal. That just isn't the case. If you or your healers struggled, they either weren't utilizing their HoTs properly, were undergeared or just inexperienced. That has nothing to do with Slaying accessories or their viability.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I am saying you are overestimating the healing requirements. For one, she is not constantly auto attacking and both healers putting their single target HoTs on the main tank will tick for approximately 6,000 HP every three seconds. Factor in party wide damage is typically handled by aoe HoTs while Assize/Earthly Star should be weaved in regularly and the damage will easily be covered. None of this even counts tanks own ability to self heal. You're presuming tanks will be hit back to back for 19,000, thus requiring an immediate heal. That just isn't the case. If you or your healers struggled, they either weren't utilizing their HoTs properly, were undergeared or just inexperienced. That has nothing to do with Slaying accessories or their viability.

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Sigh. Lets see what accessories your tanks will use when they get to that fight in savage.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Increasing enmity modifiers every time dps get stronger gear options isn't really a solution. Or if it is, it's a really bad one.

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I generally don't approve of SE choices. But explain why its bad? It greatly benefits new/fresh players. It allows for dps checks to be tuned around dps and not tanks. It allows tank checks to be designed around actual tanking mechanics and not secondary stats. Does it make the game a little easier, yes. Does it homogenize the game, that's the game you are paying for. Does it make it easier for devs, yes.

All I can see is it limits a secondary play style that has been divisive in the community. The same reason we got gates and can only pull 6 mobs max (most of the time). One side isn't willing to compromise and the other side can't (maybe won't). So we end up with devs moving stuff as close to the lower side as possible. I see this as a win for the lowest side.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Increasing enmity modifiers every time dps get stronger gear options isn't really a solution. Or if it is, it's a really bad one.

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All you have to do is use more enmity combos if dps is stronger. Right now you maybe can get away with using 1 enmity combo before going full time dps combo and hold hate on a boss. Using more enmity combos is a fix that is already in the game. If you watch your enmity meters and see people catching up to you then you can adjust and use more enmity combos.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Hey pro-STR tank players. What about the fact literally everything can crit you? How do your fixed percentage of heals and mitigation handle RNG?

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Only autoattacks can crit. Concurrent discussion about V3 aside, no crit autoattack is more than a healer can adjust for, and none even comes close to approaching the damage a tank-buster attack will do. Healers can easily cover for RNG from autoattacks. So, yes, once tanks have enough VIT to survive the worst that the enemies have to offer, it's time to start piling on the STR.

And speaking of V3...

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Sigh. Lets see what accessories your tanks will use when they get to that fight in savage.

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You and others in this thread seem to imply that stacking STR is a binary all-or-nothing thing. That a "STR tank" is going to pile on every bit of STR they can slot, regardless of the situation.

This is a silly notion.

A good tank will stack whatever VIT they need to survive the worst a mob has to offer. Any VIT beyond that is WASTED STAT. That's what folks in this thread are trying to make clear. No one is advocating stacking STR to the point where a tank can no longer function as a tank. It's simply an undeniable truth that the only purpose of VIT beyond the minimum to survive is pointless. Well, aside from covering for bad healers - but as I said before, folks should gear with the assumption that their party members are competent.

So, in your V3 (Savage) example, if there's a risk of a double-crit ending the run, tanks will stack enough VIT to survive a double-crit. And then STR beyond that. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

You and others in this thread seem to imply that stacking STR is a binary all-or-nothing thing. That a "STR tank" is going to pile on every bit of STR they can slot, regardless of the situation.

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I do not imply anything of the sort. I started using pentamelded/str accessories when we were still in coil. Then gordias and another set of pentamelded and another 20 million down the drain(got really unlucky with the melds >_>). I breathed a sigh of great relief when calculations for damage started taking Vit into the account.

And now, honestly...how can you possibly defend tanks using accessories FROM A PREVIOUS EXPANSION with a straight face? I use them but i find that the whole thing is stupid, abhorrent and unnatural.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

I do not imply anything of the sort. I started using pentamelded/str accessories when we were still in coil. Then gordias and another set of pentamelded and another 20 million down the drain(got really unlucky with the melds >_>). I breathed a sigh of great relief when calculations for damage started taking Vit into the account.

And now, honestly...how can you possibly defend tanks using accessories FROM A PREVIOUS EXPANSION with a straight face? I use them but i find that the whole thing is stupid, abhorrent and unnatural.

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you cant meld vit onto those accessories?

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

I generally don't approve of SE choices. But explain why its bad?

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It's bad because it isn't the most organic way to solve aggro issues. The most organic way is to have tank AP scale with DPS AP. The way you described, SE has to constantly change aggro modifiers to keep up with DPS patch after patch. That being said, if SE wants to do that, more power to them.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

It's bad because it isn't the most organic way to solve aggro issues. The most organic way is to have tank AP scale with DPS AP. The way you described, SE has to constantly change aggro modifiers to keep up with DPS patch after patch. That being said, if SE wants to do that, more power to them.

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Before they didn't seem to have a plan and had agro scale to dps. More dps was more agro. But if going forward they plan to adjust each gear cycle and this is part of a road map it would be way easier to control. A naked tank could still hold hate. Other mechanics would get them. But hate wouldn't have to be discussed about dpsing out gearing some tanks.

A better dev team would discuss the road map for tanking. Like it or hate it players can work within the system. Instead we will see some item they can show off to see if they can sell in the SE store. But right now we have oh no hate/dps and oh no tanks care to much about numbers. What if all the hate skills were like flash with 0 dps would people do them?

Tanking population has at least a % that don't care about tanks they are there to dps and get fast ques. Enough of those people are out in the duty finder to cause friction and paint people who str in a bad light.

I got a 35k HP PLD at lv 70 in susano extreme, to make things better, he was MTing in Sword oath. He died in the first tank buster in the fiirst phase. It was from 100% to 0%

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I got a 35k HP PLD at lv 70 in susano extreme, to make things better, he was MTing in Sword oath. He died in the first tank buster in the fiirst phase. It was from 100% to 0%

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After a few pulls that should not be happening anymore, susano does that cleave thing twice in the first phase, on a set rotation(three times if dps is low).

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I got a 35k HP PLD at lv 70 in susano extreme, to make things better, he was MTing in Sword oath. He died in the first tank buster in the fiirst phase. It was from 100% to 0%

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Oh hey I had that yesterday too. We also had a solo healer and they were in a sort of 5 stack. It's completely doable, but that Paladin was still in the wrong as he shouldn't have assumed that his healers could adjust or were even comfortable in doing so. He also didn't pop any CDs as I can live it just fine as DRK.

Randoms = Assume the worst and try to waste as little time as possible.

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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For those of us who are probably wondering about, y'know context, I have the answer! I was in that particular party with the OP so I took a screenshot before the tank was raised, I couldn't believe how fast the tank tanked the floor:
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/a...tanksfault.png

This is clearly that WAR's fault for using STR only gear.

Seriously, though, it would have been nice to get some context... unless context would kill the OP's argument... just like 3 mobs on a STR only tank.

LMAO. What am I looking at!

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Originally Posted by Demise

Gotta love tanks not having enough HP to survive a crit tank buster/auto attack combo in Susano EX because they're too busy wearing ilvl 270 str accessories for muh sick deeps.

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No, if they don't have enough HP to survive a crit tank buster/auto attack combo then they arn't mitigating properly. They are playing poorly. I have lost count of the runs I've done on Susano EX and the only thing that gets me killed, is people messing up mechanics. Actually, As WAR in full strength, I dont think I've seen Susano's Stomesplitter take me below half health.

The problem in that instance doesn't fall on the healers, or the accessories the tank uses, but on lack of skill on the tank's part alone.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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I should clarify then I mean anything as it all enemies. All enemies can crit.

What some of us healers have seen is these situations where, unless the healer is plenty overgeared and the tank is in the best gear on the right (or smart enough to mix vit/str, as you offered), a crit auto-attack immediately after a nasty cleave or multiple mobs going ham getting lucky crits IS killing tanks.

An ON LEVEL healer cannot deal with that. Sheild healers can't always prep for that, either, as HoT is sorta broken on Scholar (Eos is op but it's a long CD and Excog is weak and eats Aetherflow) and non-existent on Noct AST.

The issue is the lack of any wiggle room to account for consecutive heavy hits, AoE dodging, utility/support skill usage, etc. The amount of pressure put on healers with this is obscene.
And that's even when healer DPS is at zero!

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Originally Posted by Coatl

LMAO. What am I looking at!

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What you are looking at is my version of context because the OP didn't give any besides the number of mobs and the number of attacks. No player levels, no party setup, no dungeon, etc. So, until the OP provides that information, I am going to assume it was some low level dungeon with party members that fit the "average player according to the forums" (IE: Ice Mages everywhere and healers who don't DPS and would rather watch Netflix).

I think I have covered every forum meme except the "Mentor" meme and the DRG being dead because lolDRG meme.