Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I can only assume people talking about dropping tank stance in EX encounters have been doing it with static groups, whose dps never make mistakes and thus have healers ready to get you back to 100%. But then, how bad would those DPS have to be that you wouldn't lose aggro by staying in dps stance throughout?

Or would you spam your aggro combo while in dps stance in perpetuity.
In which case, isn't it better to be in tank stance and instead use the dps rotation? Without losing any enmity? Would also let your healers dps (which I'm sure can pull in far greater numbers).


I've tried and I really don't understand how any one tank can maintain a dps rotation, while in dps stance, and not lose aggro to a competent team.

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Coordinated use of dps's aggro dumps and shirk. Not really too hard.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I've tried and I really don't understand how any one tank can maintain a dps rotation, while in dps stance, and not lose aggro to a competent team.

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Because all DPS now have a way to reduce enmity output and any good Tank knows how to maintain their enmity generation.

Usually, once you establish your aggro lead, you're pretty much set on holding it for the rest of the fight unless the DPS outgear you or they have a particular nasty burst rotation.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Coordinated use of dps's aggro dumps and shirk. Not really too hard.

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So, your healers don't get to dps at all during a fight like susano, I'd imagine. I mean, even with tank stance and cooldowns -it hurts-.

Are you sure your dps is worth more than that of the healers? By any measure?

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Because all DPS now have a way to reduce enmity output and any good Tank knows how to maintain their enmity generation.

Usually, once you establish your aggro lead, you're pretty much set on holding it for the rest of the fight unless the DPS outgear you or they have a particular nasty burst rotation.

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Sure, I can maintain enmity generation but then I won't be able to roll my dps rotation. And I can say good-night to the blackest night (arguably my best mitigation ability) without a means to recover mp, if I'm stuck in enmity rotation.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

So, your healers don't get to dps at all during a fight like susano, I'd imagine. I mean, even with tank stance and cooldowns -it hurts-.

Are you sure your dps is worth more than that of the healers? By any measure?

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My healers put out a combined 2285 dps on our last susano ex clear, not really sure what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

So, your healers don't get to dps at all during a fight like susano, I'd imagine. I mean, even with tank stance and cooldowns -it hurts-.

Are you sure your dps is worth more than that of the healers? By any measure?

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it should be, Tanks are basically expected to whack enemies to hold their attention, healers are supposed to whack allies to keep them alive.
And the diversion excuse is stupid too. It lazilly "shirks" a tanks responsibility of commanding and controlling hate to the dps. If they had any since Shirk wouldve been Yoink - a skill that steals enmity from the entire party at the tanks command and gives it to them. No healer or dps wants that much aggro on them except in some unvonventional settings, that go against the predetermined party set up anyway

making dps solely responsible for enmity generation, taking that away from tanks, and their damage/enmity generating stat, then angering both the healing community and tank community for trying to make dps more responsible and bore tanks to death with a snorefest, vit only yoy dont deal damage now you tank, and let dps use enmity controlling skills or you lose hate, rediculous. Just pushing more tanks away, and thats not what we want

The only reason shirk is even a good ability is for those dark knights that didnt bother levelling gladiator to get provoke. Oh wait that cant happen anymore.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

So, your healers don't get to dps at all during a fight like susano, I'd imagine. I mean, even with tank stance and cooldowns -it hurts-.

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After the first phase he barely tickles you lol, anyone who can properly time and use their cooldowns can tank that fight in DPS stance while not making their healer's life a nightmare, unless you have one of those healers that always has to keep you at full HP even if you're only missing like 500.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

Are you sure your dps is worth more than that of the healers? By any measure?

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Just the same that a good Tank can hold aggro while doing their DPS rotations almost nonstop, a fantastic Healer can put out respectable DPS while still keeping the party up and healthy in almost any circumstance.

It doesn't take much to re-establish your enmity lead if it starts to falter either. Sneaking in one or two of your enmity combos in the middle of your rotation is more than enough in most cases.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

And the diversion excuse is stupid too. It lazilly "shirks" a tanks responsibility of commanding and controlling hate to the dps.

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You sound like one of those Red Mages who bursts and rips aggro right off a Tank without using Diversion, dies, and then cries that it's not YOUR fault, "the Tank should just be better at their job!" just because you've had Tanks that have had to overcompensate for your burst potential with Provoke and nonstop use of their enmity combo.

EDIT: Unless, of course, you meant something completely different by that. In which case, I apologize for my inflammatory remark, as it's become quite irksome to see this somewhat popular DPS mindset of "I shouldn't be expected to use Diversion whatsoever! The Tank should just play better!"

I'll have to see a dark knight doing it so I can learn from them then. By myself, as much as I imagine it, I can only see it going wrong.

Maybe it's time I try to find some videos of this happening, I don't want to keep hammering on an idea that may be just wrong - though I am still reluctant to believe it is that easy.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

You have these people saying "if I'm holding hate I'm doing my job" eh kind of. In many other games "holding hate" involves perfecting a rotation and maximizing dps while also hitting proper cooldowns. Basically FF14 allows tanks to be very very lazy and still hold hate. In many other games you wouldn't actually hold hate with the kind of lazy rotation and optimization these people suggest.

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Yeah. For Warrior Tank in TERA, you needed to know how to DPS well, or you weren't going to hold aggro. Defensive Stance is like tank stance in FFXIV. It just plops a multiplier on top of the damage you do. And only 3 skills have an aggro modifier. Torrent of Blows, Battle Cry, and Combative Strike. TERA Aggro formula. Outside of those 3 skills, Aggro = Damage * [(1 + Gear Threat Mods) * 1.85 * (1 + Threat Crystal Mods)]^2. And for those 3 skills you'd just need to include Skill Threat Mods and Glyph Threat Mods.

I feel like SE and Yoshi encourage lazy players. I mean I understand Yoshi and SE's viewpoint, but I don't agree with it.

From here:

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Much as I love Yoshi-P, he encourages lazy players, not just healers. He refuses to take a stand on anything regarding player skill differences, and has even stated that he wishes to decrease the skill gap by making classes easier to play. He will never actually make any sort of statement that players can interpret at "Git Gud." That's just not how he rolls. It's also why the nerfs to the MSQ content that was actually a little challenging. Steps of Faith was never actually hard, it just took a pulse. But, your average DF denizen couldn't breathe and play at the same time, so it was nerfed. Which, I mean, from a developer standpoint, I get. You want all your players to be able to get through the story. But from a player's standpoint, it hurts. You breed laziness, by never forcing a player to ever get better. And those players become toxic towards any other players who expect them to wake up long enough to do more that the absolute minimum of effort. Case in point, the "I'll play how I want!" healers.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

as it's become quite irksome to see this somewhat popular DPS mindset of "I shouldn't be expected to use Diversion whatsoever! The Tank should just play better!"

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Yeah, someone commented this on a post just asking DPS to use Diversion to help speed up runs. It's kind of sad how high it got upvoted. He's not wrong that Diversion won't help bad tanks, but he's ignoring the fact that it will help good tanks and speed up the dungeon run. Context is important.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I can only assume people talking about dropping tank stance in EX encounters have been doing it with static groups, whose dps never make mistakes and thus have healers ready to get you back to 100%. But then, how bad would those DPS have to be that you wouldnt lose aggro by staying in dps stance throughout?Or would you spam your aggro combo while in dps stance in perpetuity.
In which case, isnt it better to be in tank stance and instead use the dps rotation? Without losing any enmity?

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You cant, Not on yor own. Shirk is the most useful tank skill in the game for that very reason, it eables you to never even have to do another aggro combo or be in tank stance past the first 4 gcds of an encounter. Things like shade walker, diversion and lucid dreaming also come into play.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

So, your healers don't get to dps at all during a fight like susano, I'd imagine. I mean, even with tank stance and cooldowns -it hurts-.
Are you sure your dps is worth more than that of the healers? By any measure?
Sure, I can maintain enmity generation but then I won't be able to roll my dps rotation. And I can say good-night to the blackest night (arguably my best mitigation ability) without a means to recover mp, if I'm stuck in enmity rotation.

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I mean you need to rep your healers if they cant get any dps in a fight, especially susano. both of mine are well over a thousand and we do 1 aggro combo drop tank stance and never look back, wearing full str at that.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

I've tried and I really don't understand how any one tank can maintain a dps rotation, while in dps stance, and not lose aggro to a competent team.

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Sounds like you should start by finding a competent team to try it with.

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Originally Posted by Felorr

Sounds like you should start by finding a competent team to try it with.

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heh, don't say that too much. We aren't allowed to criticize DPS roles for being sub-par (to say the least). Be it for direct trash performances, or for not using the tools at their disposal to help the group

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Yeah. For Warrior Tank in TERA, you needed to know how to DPS well, or you weren't going to hold aggro.

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Tera's warrior was one I was thinking of, really lancer too you couldn't exactly be lazy. But really a lot of mmos are like that, eq2, swtor, pretty much anything doesn't allow the kind of laziness that ff14 does when tanking.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Tera's warrior was one I was thinking of, really lancer too you couldn't exactly be lazy. But really a lot of mmos are like that, eq2, swtor, pretty much anything doesn't allow the kind of laziness that ff14 does when tanking.

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Most MMOs have ridiculous heal aggro, so tanks are always fighting to keep aggro off their heals. That's how the "big HP pool, do buffs to reduce number of incoming heals" meta makes those games feel more properly "trinity-ized." Think EQ1 and the Complete Heal chains of 4 clerics. Tank takes beatings, 4 clerics rotate casting CH every 3 seconds, DPS wait for tank to get boss to 90% HP before they cast anything, and even then they slowly ramp it up from basic attacks until boss at like 75% before they add in more to their rotations, etc. That's how most MMOs do raids. FF14 goes at a much faster pace, so tanks get and hold aggro a lot easier.

Basically, make the game like one never ending Sastasha run where enmity is concerned and the "problem" is solved. Leave everything as is except for two tings - make heals generate more enmity and make tank abilities generate less enmity. Done. Now the game is fun?

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Basically, make the game like one never ending Sastasha run where enmity is concerned and the "problem" is solved. Leave everything as is except for two tings - make heals generate more enmity and make tank abilities generate less enmity. Done. Now the game is fun?

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Follow this one crazy step to make a huge majority of the tank playerbase drop the role forever!

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Tera's warrior was one I was thinking of, really lancer too you couldn't exactly be lazy. But really a lot of mmos are like that, eq2, swtor, pretty much anything doesn't allow the kind of laziness that ff14 does when tanking.

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Yeah. As stated here, all tanks need to do damage to hold aggro now. I find it kind of interesting how they made Brawler hold aggro solely on damage alone, because now it's hard for Brawlers to hold aggro as DPS have caught up with its DPS.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Follow this one crazy step to make a huge majority of the tank playerbase drop the role forever!

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People would do anything to avoid taking responsibilities. Little do they know, DPS role responsibilities are way higher than tank ones

As a tank, im better dps that maybe 30% dps in duty finder :p
Full Strength Power !

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Basically, make the game like one never ending Sastasha run where enmity is concerned and the "problem" is solved. Leave everything as is except for two tings - make heals generate more enmity and make tank abilities generate less enmity. Done. Now the game is fun?

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FF14's design is not necessarily wrong. It's just a different way of doing things. I was mainly pointing out how the "I hold hate" crowd is lazy. In other MMOs you don't hold hate doing what they do. So in other mmos you optimize your rotation and such to maximize enmity, using every gcd to that end. If you don't you lose hate so easily, as is the case in ff14 you instead use the remainder of your gcds maximizing dps. In both designs a tank should be expected to optimize ever gcd. In the former though if they are lazy they lose hate, in the later they don't, which sadly allows some to promote laziness.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

People would do anything to avoid taking responsibilities. Little do they know, DPS role responsibilities are way higher than tank ones

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From somebody who's played and cleared savage content as both a DPS and a tank at the time of it being current, I can absolutely assure you that the "responsibility" of tanking has absolutely nothing to do with why I, and a lot of other veteran tanks, have dropped the role.

Trying to optimize tank play is a hollow, unfulfilling, unfun task. I can maximize my cooldowns, do hero pulls, hexacleave, know exactly when and where to act... And yet I still feel like I'm being more valuable when I'm just cranking out as much hate as possible on either Samurai or Monk.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

And yet I still feel like I'm being more valuable when I'm just cranking out as much hate as possible on either Samurai or Monk.

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Because the tanking role isn't one where you are useful to your group by destroying your enemy's HP bar. You're useful by maintaining hate and synergyzing with your healer to not die. Once those 2 points are done, your job as a tank is done, and you can optimize further by pushing out dps where you can to help your group on top of your tank duty.

If you do not find fun or fulfillment in being a tank in 4.0, I do wonder where you found any of those until now. Because the job hasn't changed one bit ever since early 2.0. Tank and Spank shit, spank harder if the tanking part is only making up for 10% of your attention.

With that said, I'd like to add that optimizing tank play is actually way more fun and fulfilling than optimizing DPS. Because optimizing tank requires to live-adapt to each and every group and encounter you'll meet. Whereas optimizing DPs roles is just forging your muscle memory and repeating the same mundane rotation ad nauseam with little to no variation to adapt to mechanics. Where is the fun in that? I will never know.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Because the tanking role isn't one where you are useful to your group by destroying your enemy's HP bar. You're useful by maintaining hate and synergyzing with your healer to not die. Once those 2 points are done, your job as a tank is done, and you can optimize further by pushing out dps where you can to help your group on top of your tank duty.

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You know that tanking isn't all the difficult and that your talking to mostly other tanks right? Maintain hate? Shirk. Next. Synergyzie with healer? CD when you see the boss's casty bar. Now that my 10 sec of responsibility are done what's left? Dps......"TANKS ARE NOT DPS!"

You're mixing up 2 different subjects and I already said (2 pages earlier) that said subject didn't matter to me anymore. Next time, just try not to confuse "optimizing dps as a tank" and "going out of your way and out of intended design to gain more dps".

And I may argue that people who stop tanking because their dps gets nerfed weren't made for tanking in the first place, but I'd get flamed just like I got flamed the other billion times that subject came up so I won't bother. Opinions are what they are, and on these forums, criticizing people going against the game design is the easiest way to get flamed

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Would you say if a dps is doing their 1,2,3 combo and hitting cooldowns their job is done? No, people would be calling them a lazy terrible dps. So why the double standard for tanks?

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way to ignore the second part of the sentence

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

You're useful by maintaining hate and synergyzing with your healer to not die. Once those 2 points are done, your job as a tank is done

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Would you say if a dps is doing their 1,2,3 combo and hitting cooldowns their job is done? No, people would be calling them a lazy terrible dps. So why the double standard for tanks?

Oh yeah I saw that on page 9....but then you made 5 comments since then. If you don't care then why are you still commenting? Tanks that where full str for all content are trash, just like tanks that where full vit. A good tank knows how to mix vit to str to max the possible damage they can achieve while staying alive. Our dps scales off str and equipping str accs. helps maximize our dps. If you are not wearing any str then you are not doing your maximum damage. Also, your right, you would get flammed for making comments about a higher calling to tank....in a video game. It's a good thing you didn't make that argument =)

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

way to ignore the second part of the sentence

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No I actually didn't ignore it at all, you just didn't grasp the point. Essentially what you said is anything beyond a tank's 1,2,3 combo and cooldowns is just extra and not part of their job. For a dps anything short of using all their gcd's to maximize dps is considered bad. I would say the job of any class is to maximize gcd's for best performance. You wouldn't say the job of a dps is done if he's hitting his 1,2,3 combo with cooldowns, yet you said exactly that about tanks and implied that dpsing after that is optional and extra. So why the double standard?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Urgh, no. the LAST thing we need is new players in DF with full STR accessories as tanks. Please don't. Actually, please don't even do that in DF even if you're pro. save that for competent groups, aka your own friends/static

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I'd love for you to point out where I said newbies should wear all STR accessories in the duty finder. Go on, I'll wait. In the mean time, learn what this is.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/false_dichotomy

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

No I actually didn't ignore it at all, you just didn't grasp the point. Essentially what you said is anything beyond a tank's 1,2,3 combo and cooldowns is just extra and not part of their job. For a dps anything short of using all their gcd's to maximize dps is considered bad. I would say the job of any class is to maximize gcd's for best performance. You wouldn't say the job of a dps is done if he's hitting his 1,2,3 combo with cooldowns, yet you said exactly that about tanks and implied that dpsing after that is optional and extra. So why the double standard?

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I'll point you to a statement I said in the eaxct same message. You seem to have ignored that part.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

the job hasn't changed one bit ever since early 2.0. Tank and Spank shit, spank harder if the tanking part is only making up for 10% of your attention.

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Hey look, I totally did say that tanks should optimize their rotation for dps once the tanking part (aka 1-2-3 hurr durr I got hate now) is over. There is no double standard. Tanks doing 1-2-3 all day long are bad. mediocre at best if they use their CDs in a sorta optimized way as to relieve healing stress. Average tanks will do dps combo once hate is secured in tank stance in case of shit happening. Good tanks will drop tank stance whenever they can without putting stress on healing for no reason. Excellent tanks (in excellent groups) will pretty much stay in dps stance forever since hate isn't an issue and the group actually knows how to mitigate shit as a group duty and not only "tank hits CD and healer heals" (OT uses a support CD (poor WAR), dps uses addle or physical equivalent, pallissade, apoc, etc...).

Optimizing one's rotation is part of the job, and I am not sure where you saw me saying people shouldn't optimize their rotation as tanks

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Originally Posted by KMFDM_Kid2000

I'd love for you to point out where I said newbies should wear all STR accessories in the duty finder. Go on, I'll wait. In the mean time, learn what this is.

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OP is saying that STR meta tanks should gtfo and stop being bad (their opinion, mine is irrelevant on the subject). You're saying they spread misinformation and are confusing new players, implicitly saying that new player should conform to the STR tank meta. That is NOT a goot idea in any regards. Even if that may not be your intention, you are confusing newbies out of the intended role SE would have tanks going, in favor of a player-made optimization exploiting design oversights.

SE should just go back to VIT being tanks main stat (damage included), and stop forcing people to choose between 2 sets when all other jobs just use BiS all day every day.

Or else you'll always have people ranting when a wipe occurs, that tanks aren't geared properly (be it STR or VIT, doesn't matter), and that the wipe occured because of him (buster / dps check).

I'm ok with having to choose between 2 sets (or more) ... but not when only tanks get to choose and get flamed for it ... especially when it feels like a design flaw (270 acc. really ?)

Or, heck, just add STR to all tank accessories and prevent all "pure STR"/dps acc. to be looted by tanks.

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Originally Posted by MercureXI

SE should just go back to VIT being tanks main stat (damage included), and stop forcing people to choose between 2 sets when all other jobs just use BiS all day every day.

Or else you'll always have people ranting when a wipe occurs, that tanks aren't geared properly (be it STR or VIT, doesn't matter), and that the wipe occured because of him (buster / dps check).

I'm ok with having to choose between 2 sets (or more) ... but not when only tanks get to choose and get flamed for it ... especially when it feels like a design flaw (270 acc. really ?)

Or, heck, just add STR to all tank accessories and prevent all "pure STR"/dps acc. to be looted by tanks.

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I cant agree more, safety tanks will just deal way less damage anyway cause theyll spam enmity combo and nothing else, other tanks will be able to push it further, and use secondaries to bis their damage fix. SE isnt taking the zen approach or hasnt for some time(HW drastically changing stats like parry or how ap/dex influenced parry/block rates and the mitigation theyd provide) They want to simplify this, but cant see the middle road right there.

This is outrageous, lol. Should tanks be tanks? Yes? Should tanks push for damage to help speed things up? Yes, but they aren't forced to. Aside from Gordias, if you need tanks to bust out their mediocre DPS to clear content then maybe you should find better DPS. Tanks will still do okay tank-grade DPS using their safe play style. A tank going DPS, in the grand scheme, is an extremely small improvement at a much higher risk of drastically shoring down raid damage via lost aggro or higher damage intake requiring more healing.

There's nothing wrong with huge pulls if you know what you're doing. If you're mitigating heavy damage and working to your parties' strengths then the Safety Tank will out DPS a DPS tank, but that takes experience. If I'm in a dungeon and I see a SMN in the party that knows how to rock the class then I'm going to pull hard. If the healer is half decent then I'm going to pull harder.

This narrow minded, elitist idea of living in a single play style is just as 2nd rate as the people who live only on their rotations. Know your jobs, know the content, know your party's skill levels and push their strengths as hard as they can handle to speed whatever content up to its realistic limits. A tank's priority is aggro, positioning, mitigation, and damage in that order. Tanks that stay in turtle mode are awful, and tanks that push too hard for damage are just as bad. Stay flexible and adjust to whatever the situation calls for.

Being a STR tank since 2.X, I SERIOUSLY hope they lock the STR accs while just increasing the weight of tenacity. That's all that needs to be done. Seriously... living in the past is getting old quick.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

Nice, so we're lazy if we play tanks the way we want to. As long as the tank is top of the enmity list, and as long as he's not getting creamed to the point that healers can't handle it, then all should be well. Any extra, over-the-top, dps should just be considered that - extra. But no, 1 2 3 tanks get insults for doing our jobs the way you don't think we should.

Honestly, I'm so tired of being told to drop grit and use more DA, then be called bad if I don't.

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I'm a bit late on this, but...

Yes, knowingly underperforming is a pretty good indicator that you're bad.

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Originally Posted by MercureXI

SE should just go back to VIT being tanks main stat (damage included), and stop forcing people to choose between 2 sets when all other jobs just use BiS all day every day.

Or else you'll always have people ranting when a wipe occurs, that tanks aren't geared properly (be it STR or VIT, doesn't matter), and that the wipe occured because of him (buster / dps check).

I'm ok with having to choose between 2 sets (or more) ... but not when only tanks get to choose and get flamed for it ... especially when it feels like a design flaw (270 acc. really ?)

Or, heck, just add STR to all tank accessories and prevent all "pure STR"/dps acc. to be looted by tanks.

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We have the choice because SE "forgot" to do an update on old gear. The reasons why they didn't retroactively locked the gear is unknown, but there's a high chance that it was either an oversight, or a technical impossibility (for example: they can't lock gear we are currently wearing. I don't know why they wouldn't be able to move that gear in our inventories though).

But it's clear with Stormblood's accessories that they don't want to give us that choice anymore, and they are actively trying to find a solution to that problem.

Regarding going back to VIT as a main stat, SE stated that they don't want to do that. Mostly because having HP and Attack Power tied to a single stat is something they have some issues with.

It's seriously stupid that 5 of our pieces of gear don't affect us at all and are a complete waste to upgrade.

If tanks aren't dps, then what are they? Do they not sit there and hit the boss or poke the adds? Such a mystery !

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

It's seriously stupid that 5 of our pieces of gear don't affect us at all and are a complete waste to upgrade.

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Having more HP reduce the amount of mitigation needed to survive a Tank Buster.
Maybe you don't see the value in that, but it doesn't mean that it does nothing.