LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

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Originally Posted by SuperGandhi

Someone really needs to explain this to me, and it better not be about tanking just needs to worry about a few mechanics, because every time I hear that it makes me think you're just a monkey sitting behind a computer copy pasting the same thing as the other monkies.

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I really enjoyed your humblebrag! Thank you for the contribution.

/sigh

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Originally Posted by Klongol

I really enjoyed your humblebrag! Thank you for the contribution.

/sigh

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That's all you got? C'mon you can do better than that, you didn't even answer my question.
Because if that's really your only reason for tanks just need to be tanks than you don't belong in the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

That is an attitude that you, and seemingly others, are imposing on yourselves. It's NOT the bare minimum. YOU feel like SE's attempts to control tank DPS is negatively impacting the job. I'm here to tell you that your attitude is the problem, not SE.

Hell, I'm not even knocking trying to increase your damage as a tank. I used to do it in WoW Legion all the time. The bottom line, however, was that I wasn't that worried about dps to succeed. I wasn't SUPPOSED to.

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You know, I argued with you in my last reply, but if I take this particular perspective into consideration, I can see the point you're making, although I disagree on a couple of the other stances you've asserted.

First of which, you claim it's a self-imposed problem, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that even hardcore raid tanks expect other tanks to output comparable DPS to an actual DPS role in this game, but again, that seems to be a mindset that's been fostered out of necessity on account of both the subpar performance of the majority of this game's DPS players coupled together with the requirement of a relatively high party-wide minimum DPS in order to clear the Savage content of the last expansion. Then again, I have no measure as to whether or not a party of above-average/excellent DPS and standard Tank and Healer damage numbers/performance lead to consistent clears of content back in previous raid tier, either.

Secondly, it would be all well and good if the dev team is truly attempting to steer us away from this mindset, but, just like they attempt to remove the potential for speedrunning dungeon content, as long as the most effective method exists, people are going to want to pursue it. Optimization is never completely a bad thing.

Third, as I've stated before, given that DPS is already one of the most widely played roles in this game, changing Jobs will only create a shortage of Tanks, which doesn't address the problems people are having with the role whatsoever. Unless the players manage to develop an effective meta involving nothing but DPS and healers in a party comp, the ultimatum you suggest is unsound.

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

... really? I personally never had more fun on the single basis that I did a few more hundred points of DPS. I have fun on the basis of seeing new mechanics, location settings and clearing new content, and progressing the main story. But simply a bit more DPS? Nope. Never.

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It's not the numbers. It's using your full kit and having fun. I mean, maybe you have fun just doing 1-2-3 and Flash/Overpower/whatever, but a lot of us don't. MSQ was interesting but after you finish the story and clear content, then what? There are periods of content lulls, which is why gameplay should also be engaging.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You know, despite being a dps main, I don't understand this mindset. I mean, I'm as happy as can be when I score a 40k Midare crit, don't get me wrong, but not enjoying a job on the basis I don't see five digit numbers all the time...? As a tank, I have the most fun when I'm holding hate in dps stance and shrugging off tank busters, not because "OMG LOOKIT MUH FELL CLEAVE GUYS"! I don't even care about the numbers specifically, I just like shrugging off those hits like so much chump change.

About the only complaints I could see being valid would be inability to hold hate or broken gameplay mechanics, but lower numbers? Only way I could see that being bad is if you prefer prioritizing epeen over clearing content.

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I'll bite even though. I never once complained about numbers (which is why I'm fine with the recent buff) just about using my full kit and having fun. It's equivalent to only having 1 combo and 1 AoE and nothing else on a DPS. Can do that while watching Netflix.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

the problem is that people think that as tank they have to be bad ass dps , trying to prove something ,but they forget ur alrdy doing something for the party , as in holding aggro and taking big hits , some dps is just a bonus ^^

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Im trying to push my class to the limit. If I can do my job hold agro do mechanics and still wear 270s and pump out dmg then why not. If the attack does 25k dmg what does it matter if i have 60k health or 38k. My friend I ran Alexander savage with that mains scholar said he enjoys healing me with 270s better because he can use Excogitation more often letting him utilize his class more. If a vit tank and a str tank did the same exact thing, rotation boss position mechanics, which one do you prefer the one with less dmg or the one with more?

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

Im trying to push my class to the limit. If I can do my job hold agro do mechanics and still wear 270s and pump out dmg then why not. If the attack does 25k dmg what does it matter if i have 60k health or 38k. My friend I ran Alexander savage with that mains scholar said he enjoys healing me with 270s better because he can use Excogitation more often letting him utilize his class more. If a vit tank and a str tank did the same exact thing, rotation boss position mechanics, which one do you prefer the one with less dmg or the one with more?

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This right here, why no one else seems to understand this breaks my mind so god damn hard.
What's so bad about trying to play your class to the best of it's abilities, AND IN A CO-OP GAME!
You'd think people would be happy their team mates are trying their best, gods know that when I see it I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Secondly, it would be all well and good if the dev team is truly attempting to steer us away from this mindset, but, just like they attempt to remove the potential for speedrunning dungeon content, as long as the most effective method exists, people are going to want to pursue it. Optimization is never completely a bad thing.

Third, as I've stated before, given that DPS is already one of the most widely played roles in this game already, changing Jobs will only create a shortage of Tanks, which doesn't address the problems people are having with the role whatsoever Unless the players manage to develop an effective meta involving nothing but DPS and healers in a party comp, the ultimatum you suggest is unsound.

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To address these two specifically, I agree that the way they are going about it is definitely odd. On one hand there are no str accessories Tanks can equip. On the other, most abilities for Tanks 60 to 70 are pure damage skills. It's a mixed message... and I'm not sure that it's enough to really turn the tide. Also if they don't back up this change with more engaging play for tanks at various stages of the game, they do risk losing people who tank.... which plays right into your 3rd point.

To me the message is clear however, and anyone who critically looks at the changes in the context of history can see where they are going.

The ultimatum is probably a bit more inflammatory than it should be, but honestly, it is a way to keep playing and enjoying the game at the very least. If enough tanks leave to play DPS they may make more sweeping changes to turn the tide. Who knows!

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

You know, I argued with you in my last reply, but if I take this particular perspective into consideration, I can see the point you're making, although I disagree on a couple of the other stances you've asserted.

First of which, you claim it's a self-imposed problem, but I can tell you from firsthand experience that even hardcore raid tanks expect other tanks to output comparable DPS to an actual DPS role in this game, but again, that seems to be a mindset that's been fostered out of necessity on account of both the subpar performance of the majority of this game's DPS players coupled together with the requirement of a relatively high party-wide minimum DPS in order to clear the Savage content of the last expansion. Then again, I have no measure as to whether or not a party of above-average/excellent DPS and standard Tank and Healer damage numbers/performance lead to consistent clears of content back in previous raid tier, either.Secondly, it would be all well and good if the dev team is truly attempting to steer us away from this mindset, but, just like they attempt to remove the potential for speedrunning dungeon content, as long as the most effective method exists, people are going to want to pursue it. Optimization is never completely a bad thing.

Third, as I've stated before, given that DPS is already one of the most widely played roles in this game already, changing Jobs will only create a shortage of Tanks, which doesn't address the problems people are having with the role whatsoever. Unless the players manage to develop an effective meta involving nothing but DPS and healers in a party comp, the ultimatum you suggest is unsound.

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I've seen people hint that tanks were nefed in an attempt to curb speedrunning but again like you said, people are still going to find ways to do it.

They create content (relic weapons) that requires 100s or 1000s of dungeon runs so what do they expect is going to happen?

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'll bite even though. I never once complained about numbers (which is why I'm fine with the recent buff) just about using my full kit and having fun. It's equivalent to only having 1 combo and 1 AoE and nothing else on a DPS. Can do that while watching Netflix.

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You say your not complaining about the numbers, and yet you're very clearly upset about not doing dps comparable to a full dps, going off of your own past posts and the posts here in this thread, so which is it? You can't say you aren't complaining about the numbers, while simultaneously asking SE to make your numbers bigger.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

3000 DPS. Congratulations for being in the top 10 for Warriors worldwide.

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Lol I wish. That was on sss. It's pretty impressing seeing ppl do 3k in ex Susano. I think I'm around 25-27k

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Originally Posted by Klongol

What you explain in support Falar is an actual example of this mentality. What if, instead of letting the DPS lay on the ground dead, tanks managed to stave off damage long enough for the healers to rez the dead dps, and by proxy help the boss die faster, since the dps's roll is to do just that. Why does success have to be based around the TANKS (or in this case, also healers) own dps? Do you see here where a turn in mentality and thinking about a tanks' role in the raid can change based on where your focus is?

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What if the healers can hardly afford the opportunity to raise the rest of the party for a considerable window of time because they're busy trying to heal the damage the tanks, and they themselves, are taking from unavoidable damage mechanics? I'm not saying success HAS to be based around the Tanks and Healers' own DPS, just that theirs often ends up being the dealbreaker to fights because of the incompetence of other players. Do you see where the very problem you're complaining about potentially exists because of the fact that Tanks and Healers have had to compensate for poor DPS who absolutely (and very loudly) refuse to improve their own performance? Granted, I won't deny that there is an exaggerated sense of ego among a handful of hardcore Tank and Healer players on account of their exemplary performance and damage contributions, but it is possible that such is a product of having to compensate for the performance of others over a very long period of time. I can't exactly speak for every elitist player's mentality, though.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

the problem is that people think that as tank they have to be bad ass dps , trying to prove something ,but they forget ur alrdy doing something for the party , as in holding aggro and taking big hits , some dps is just a bonus ^^

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There is no real mitigation stat in the game. More hp doesn't make you tank better. So the only way to improve a tank in this game right now is dps stats.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You say your not complaining about the numbers, and yet you're very clearly upset about not doing dps comparable to a full dps, going off of your own past posts and the posts here in this thread, so which is it? You can't say you aren't complaining about the numbers, while simultaneously asking SE to make your numbers bigger.

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See, this is why I said even though.

If that's what you think you misreading my past posts, or perhaps I didn't make myself clear. DPS is nice, as it is king in this game. However, I don't really care because let me tell you I bet I've never even reached 2k DPS on a tank. Why would I suddenly care about DPS? If I really cared about DPS I should be near 3k on a tank like the pro tanks. What I care about is having fun.

I'm perfectly 100% happy with the recent buffs because it allows me to utilize my full kit, which is what I care about. Not the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

There is no real mitigation stat in the game. More hp doesn't make you tank better. So the only way to improve a tank in this game right now is dps stats.

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There is one, now. Tenacity.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

There is no real mitigation stat in the game. More hp doesn't make you tank better. So the only way to improve a tank in this game right now is dps stats.

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Tenacity, while it may need a little more weight to it, very much is a mitigation stat, and it also functions as a healing+ and damage+ stat as well. Just needs a tad more weight, like I said.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Tenacity, while it may need a little more weight to it, very much is a mitigation stat, and it also functions as a healing+ and damage+ stat as well. Just needs a tad more weight, like I said.

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Based on the math people have run on it, it needs considerably more than just a "tad".

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Based on the math people have run on it, it needs considerably more than just a "tad".

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Others who have crunched the numbers are saying that 1000 tenacity results in about a 1% difference.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

There is one, now. Tenacity.

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Well yes but it's kind of implied that I meant mitigation that actually does something measurable.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

It's not the numbers. It's using your full kit and having fun. I mean, maybe you have fun just doing 1-2-3 and Flash/Overpower/whatever, but a lot of us don't.

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Now hold on a freakin' minute. Saying I don't care about the actual numbers I put out never meant I simply 1-2-3 and Flash. What I'm saying is I don't have "more fun" simply because my damage numbers are higher, or the run has ended in 20 minutes instead of 25. Heck, I'm not having more fun simply because I've done more damage when I do play a DPS either.


People who don't actually cry about the recent changes for tank damage aren't people that simply spam 1-2-3. That's definitely one misconception people need to get out of their heads. It's never even been remotely relevant.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

Others who have crunched the numbers are saying that 1000 tenacity results in about a 1% difference.

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recent test prove 1000 tenacity give us a 5% on defense and attack.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

Others who have crunched the numbers are saying that 1000 tenacity results in about a 1% difference.

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more like 5% at 1.5k

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You say your not complaining about the numbers, and yet you're very clearly upset about not doing dps comparable to a full dps, going off of your own past posts and the posts here in this thread, so which is it? You can't say you aren't complaining about the numbers, while simultaneously asking SE to make your numbers bigger.

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NO. NOOOO. NOOOO!

http://https://s-media-cache-ak0.pin...84a8636491.jpg

It's about wanting to contribute to the clear, and also about being tired of getting continually punished for playing according to the meta. Not about wanting to be more Samurai than a Samurai.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

NO. NOOOO. NOOOO!

http://https://s-media-cache-ak0.pin...84a8636491.jpg

It's about wanting to contribute to the clear, and also about being tired of getting continually punished for playing according to the meta. Not about wanting to be more Samurai than a Samurai.

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The only way you don't contribute to a clear is if you don't do anything.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The only way you don't contribute to a clear is if you don't do anything.

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I'm not sure what world you live in but. . . if you're not doing 50k damage per swing, you're not contributing to the raid. /s

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The only way you don't contribute to a clear is if you don't do anything.

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Some people contribute more by not doing anything than by doing something wrong.

It's why people often tell carries in T9 to just kill themselves in the death walls before the meteors pop. That is, of course, if you're "technical" about contributing. Even your passive job buff technically contributes.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

I'm not sure what world you live in but. . . if you're not doing 50k damage per swing, you're not contributing to the raid. /s

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Again, tanks aren't asking for dps numbers. We want a metric that shows progression. If I can take a hit at 7k hp I can take the same hit with 25k hp. That's not something we can measure to gauge how well we are playing. If anything people are asking that tanks get carried. We just have to stand there and don't die. Not really the contribution we were hoping for.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

We want a metric that shows progression.

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Yeah, and that metric should lean more towards damage reduction since we're the ones taking the hits. If tenacity wasn't complete dribble then upgrading VIT accessories would mean increased health from more vitality and reduced damage taken and a slight increase to damage dealt from tenacity.

I think the biggest problem is that as the expansion goes on DPS will start doing more and more damage while tanks will start being left behind and tank DPS will end up being useless.

Since tanks won't be gaining any damage from their right side I think it's safe to say that each tier of gear will have really negligible damage boosts, which in turn means that tanks will always be hovering around the 2k-3k DPS mark, what this means is that by the time we get to the second or third Omega tiers the fights are going to be designed with 4 people doing around 5k-6k DPS in mind, so the damage tanks contribute by actually doing their DPS rotation will start mattering less and less until it reaches the point where a run will only be a few seconds shorter if the tank just spams their enmity combo while in tank stance for the entire run, and that just isn't fun.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Some people contribute more by not doing anything than by doing something wrong.

It's why people often tell carries in T9 to just kill themselves in the death walls before the meteors pop. That is, of course, if you're "technical" about contributing. Even your passive job buff technically contributes.

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There's a difference between contributing 'nothing' and contributing 'to the wipe'.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Yeah, and that metric should lean more towards damage reduction since we're the ones taking the hits. If tenacity wasn't complete dribble then upgrading VIT accessories would mean increased health from more vitality and reduced damage taken and a slight increase to damage dealt from tenacity.

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That's what I'm saying. Mitigation isn't a metric. If I can tank the content to get me the higher vit gear, I don't need the gear to tank the content. it doesn't make clearing the content go any faster. It isn't any more satisfying taking a tank buster with higher vit. It just means I can start ignoring mechanics and be lazy.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

That's what I'm saying. Mitigation isn't a metric. If I can tank the content to get me the higher vit gear, I don't need the gear to tank the content. it doesn't make clearing the content go any faster. It isn't any more satisfying taking a tank buster with higher vit. It just means I can start ignoring mechanics and be lazy.

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I think what he means is that the metric in which to judge a Tank should be some sort of mitigation. Be that though skills, gear, etc. IMO a lot needs to change if SE wants the "tank dps" mindset to go away, its a fundamental problem in the Tank skills / game mechanics. Simply taking away the damage and giving us a tenacity stat without doing much else isn't enough.

From a healer POV i really understand what you mean with vit being useless..... i see a lot of people (who i assume are non-healers) saying that vit is good because you can "tank more" wich is not true.... maybe it just removes some stress but is too far away from "tanking more" ... as healer, i need the same amount of heals(GCD+MP) to recover a tank from a tank buster despite them having 20k or 100k HP yeah ofc if they have more vit they dont need to be fulled as fast as some1 with low Hp, but at the end of the day im the one who needs to full that HP again and if i do it now or later, the amount of heals i need to cast remain the same, since my heals arent Target's HP dependant but my own stats....
Take big pulls for example, a tank with 100k Hp is more likely to make my life easier than one with 20k hp ? yeah, maybe for the first 5-10 seconds of the fight since they dont need "urgent heals" so i can dps, but when they reach some break point on their Hp im gonna need to start healing them, and once again my heals restore the same amount of HP to some1 with 20k and 100k, the total Mp used is the same, the total CGC+oGCD is the same (and actually i would feel stressed at the moment of heals since im gonna feel my heals arent doing much cuz of the total % amount of hp restored)....

TL;DR: We (healers) dont have Heals/shields that scales with target's Hps (Stone skin was the only thing and now its gone) so the amount of HP a tank has is meanless to us as long as they can stay alive on a tank buster, the problem is not tank's doing bad dps, but them being forced to get VIT when it helps nothing to the party or themselves.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Yeah it's always bothered me that the Greatsword and Greataxe did less damage then other weapons when the standard for those weapons was they were slower but hit a fuckton harder. But in XIV they hit like a wet noodle.

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That's the one thing that doesn't make any sense in the game. Why give these jobs big huge weapons that hit for so little. I think they need to sit back and take a big look at how they plan for tanks act in the game and for future tanks being added because right now it just looks odd when a big weapon hits for so little damage.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

I think what he means is that the metric in which to judge a Tank should be some sort of mitigation. Be that though skills, gear, etc. IMO a lot needs to change if SE wants the "tank dps" mindset to go away, its a fundamental problem in the Tank skills / game mechanics. Simply taking away the damage and giving us a tenacity stat without doing much else isn't enough.

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Yeah I really like the way TERA did it, in which a perfect tank would take 0 damage. It says a lot about game design when a good tank is almost solely measured by how much DPS they do. That being said, the meta in TERA is also tanks doing a large amount of DPS.

However I don't see them going the route TERA did because it had a pretty high learning curve.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

That's what I'm saying. Mitigation isn't a metric. If I can tank the content to get me the higher vit gear, I don't need the gear to tank the content. it doesn't make clearing the content go any faster. It isn't any more satisfying taking a tank buster with higher vit. It just means I can start ignoring mechanics and be lazy.

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Following that logic, what's the point of gearing up with +damage? You can clear the content without that shiny new gear and it won't do anything for you. There's nothing satisfying about dropping an instance two seconds faster or getting a crit with 50 more points of damage.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Following that logic, what's the point of gearing up with +damage? You can clear the content without that shiny new gear and it won't do anything for you. There's nothing satisfying about dropping an instance two seconds faster or getting a crit with 50 more points of damage.

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Actually, there is xD you feel better cuz you hit harder hence finish stuff faster...

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

Actually, there is xD you feel better cuz you hit harder hence finish stuff faster...

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Nope. I couldn't care less. 41k, 34k, idgaf what the numbers are so long as the thing dies. Why? How is that fun when I couldn't care less about epeen?

Hell, I turned off floating numbers because it's pretty pointless.

Just because warriors (in general) are being loud (and extremely vocal) about losing their DPS doesn't mean we all are.

I know more than a few tanks, dark knights and paladins, that are -just- fine with the changes being made. Heck, we've had a few discussions regarding the whole mentality that tanks should be a relevant contributor to damage.

Do not misunderstand, don't even try to make it out like I like being lazy. I -always- try to maximize my DPS when I'm playing paladin or dark knight, I do, be it dungeon or ex trial or raid content. Likewise, I try to optimize the usage of my cooldowns so I'm not caught with my pants down when tank busters are on the way - but I do not get ANY satisfaction from seeing big numbers. It's not my primary concern. It never should have been.

My job is to keep the enmity, to position the enemy accordingly, to mitigate damage for myself and my party. Just like with healers, I agree that I should try my best to optimize my damage output, of course I should, I like to believe that's what separates a good tank from a great tank. But it's a bonus, it should never have been a requirement.

Can anybody of the "muhdontneeddps" people explain why the majority of new skills for the tanks are dps skills and not tools to further increase our mitigation/survivability

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Originally Posted by Baci

Can anybody of the "muhdontneeddps" people explain why the majority of new skills for the tanks are dps skills and not tools to further increase our mitigation/survivability

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Another warrior.


*cough*

I never said we don't need to dps. I said it isn't our primary concern. Or secondary. Tertiary concern, maybe.
I'll write it out again - of course we should maximize our dps output. But it starts and ends there. It's silly that some tanks (warriors) believe that DPS is the end-goal. We aren't the damage dealers in our group. We aren't.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

"It isn't even our secondary concern" and "of course we should maximize our DPS output" feels like incredibly contradictory statements.

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To elaborate, what I meant by it is that although I completely agree we should play to the best of our ability, it isn't something we should actively worry about. Like, I always try to do my best because otherwise I'm not having fun but if I need to pick between dealing a few more numbers and eating a buster, or dealing a bit less and taking less damage, I'll go with the latter.