Objectively, The Royal Managerie Will Be Nerfed

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Originally Posted by Sereph6

I agree, but the number of people that join RM without completing their lvl70 job quest is awfully high and I don't get why. As soon as I hit 70 I literally rushed to complete the job quest.
New shiny skill? Sign me up
New awesome gear? Yay
New cool weapon? YAY
But no no, a lot of people (at least in my Data Center) ignore it and join regardless - a lot of them with lvl60 gear, too. Not surprised you wipe!

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I didnt use my level 70 whm ability once. To be honest I'm very disappointed in it for whm. The level 60 ability i use all the time before stormblood, but this confessions... RNG has never been on my side so it may as well not even be on my hotbar.

I have a feeling it'll be nerfed too (i hope not)

But if folks run into issues...get Verity tomes...it does make it easier

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Originally Posted by Annah

I have a feeling it'll be nerfed too (i hope not)

But if folks run into issues...get Verity tomes...it does make it easier

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Again, you can't get Verity until you've cleared Managerie. Or are you telling those of us who have beaten it to go overgear ASAP to carry other players?

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Again, you can't get Verity until you've cleared Managerie. Or are you telling those of us who have beaten it to go overgear ASAP to carry other players?

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Hmm
Royal Managerie nerf can be done with making it a part of the next relic quest to lure overgeared players into it.

The only part I actually feel is somewhat overtuned is the meteor drop during the add phase. People seem to randomly die during that even if they're kinda sorta standing in the right place.

The rest is perfect, imo. It's a difficult and climactic end to an action-packed expansion and the feeling of triumph you get when you win matches what your character should feel.

I really hope it's not nerfed.

Got it in Mentor Roulette yesterday.
We wiped for 1 hour and disbanded.
DPS just was low and healers were OOM at about 20-30%
And new people can't upgrade to 310 to make it faster because verity shop is locked behind this trial.

I'll just instaquit it every time till they nerf it.
Not going to sacrifice more of my time because someone don't know how to balance story mode.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

I'll just instaquit it every time till they nerf it.
Not going to sacrifice more of my time because someone don't know how to balance story mode.

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Your prerogative. If I get it in a roulette, I will keep going until the bitter end. I believe my time is more valuably spent working with people. So if that trial comes up, I'll work with it until disband. No matter how many times I get it. And I hope for the sakes of people like you it DOESN'T get nerfed. Only change I can support is don't lock the tomestome gear behind this trial. That way people can gradually gear up for it.

Sure, support more bad balancing and bleeding subs. Steps of Faith and A3S lesson wasn't enough apparently.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Sure, support more bad balancing and bleeding subs. Steps of Faith and A3S lesson wasn't enough apparently.

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Steps of Faith was a case of one mistake and you were sitting on a slow 10 minute long wipe-trailer. It took forever to wipe. That's why it was nerfed. A3S was heavily overtuned even for those who would want to attempt and clear Savage. They don't make sense here. Final Steps of Faith was another example people use as being "too hard" and needing a nerf, and it never got nerfed. The only difference there was you could access tomestone gear before hitting that trial and it wasn't locked behind it. Doing the same here and making tomestone gear available before RM would put it on the same front as FSOF.

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Originally Posted by Annah

Foreign concept i know. But this is how I am.. i tend to help people. I dont stand AFK in idyllshire with my bright and shinies and scoff "at the little player" and think "oh i must carry these subjects"

I know you probably do not believe this, but some people are just naturally helpful without thinking for a returned favor.

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Pretty much sums up my previous post. I like helping people. Heck, someone asked for help with it in-progress once, so I tried to join. DF gave me a different instance of RM (bah, whatever), and we clear it in 2 attempts despite having some newbies. Some good explanation, and support, went a long way. If helping people grasp the fight and help them through it with guidance and support counts as carrying people, then I'm proud to carry people! Because in my eyes, that isn't carrying. They're trying their best, they're working at it. Someone with more experience helping and supporting them, and putting up markers, and talking them through the mechanics, goes a long way.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Again, you can't get Verity until you've cleared Managerie. Or are you telling those of us who have beaten it to go overgear ASAP to carry other players?

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Don't be bitter about this.

This may be a foreign concept to you but me and other folks like to get over geared and then go back and help others who need help getting through any hard dungeon or trial....for free

Foreign concept i know. But this is how I am and this is how others are too.. we tend to help people. We don't scoff "at the little player" and think "oh i must carry these subjects...le sigh!" or call people out on forums about how silly or how bad they are.

I know you probably do not believe this, but some people are just naturally helpful without thinking for a returned favor or thinking "they must be carried."

If you want a proof this fight is overtuned then at some point it starts repeating itself endlessly without any new gimmicks, only draining healers and tank resources for no reason longer than necessary. The wipes I had were not because people were not doing mechanics, it was because healers were OOM (even with Lucid Dreaming and MP Shifts, you can heal only so long).

In short, it's too long.

Boss' HP should be nerfed by 25%, everything else left intact. And you'll still see the same phases cycling a few times.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Pretty much sums up my previous post. I like helping people. Heck, someone asked for help with it in-progress once, so I tried to join. DF gave me a different instance of RM (bah, whatever), and we clear it in 2 attempts despite having some newbies. Some good explanation, and support, went a long way. If helping people grasp the fight and help them through it with guidance and support counts as carrying people, then I'm proud to carry people! Because in my eyes, that isn't carrying. They're trying their best, they're working at it. Someone with more experience helping and supporting them, and putting up markers, and talking them through the mechanics, goes a long way.

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See, this is what it's all about. You went through it. You know what it's like and you have no quarrels helping those who need help. This is what makes a great community.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

If you want a proof this fight is overtuned then at some point it starts repeating itself endlessly without any new gimmicks, only draining healers and tank resources for no reason longer than necessary. The wipes I had were not because people were not doing mechanics, it was because healers were OOM (even with Lucid Dreaming and MP Shifts, you can heal only so long).

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This (sometimes) means the DPS isn't there. As a healer myself, i know you can do this fight without running out (of manna). We have a lot of mechanics that prevents this from happening. But if we ran out of manna in this fight it means one of two (or both) things EDIT: well, three:

1. DPS isn't the greatest (which causes a super long fight which causes manna drain)
2. Lots of folks stepping in bad goo and getting hurt harder or dying (which causes a greater manna drain for resurrections)
3. Healers are not utilizing cool down and other manna saving abilities

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

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Genuine question, but was the tail being killed upon it spawning every time? That's a mechanic that can be used to deal a decent burst of damage. I know you said they were doing mechanics but that being said, that's one that often goes under the radar. if so, then I aren't sure why it took so long... It's definitely something that can be overcome with gear mind you, hence me thinking allowing tomestome gear to be bought without having to beat this fight would be enough. But as for the fight dragging on for so long, I'm pretty sure that was intentional on the devs part to make it feel like a true final boss. I can see where the nerfing boss HP suggestion comes from, but I think allowing tomestone gear to be bought without beating this would be enough as it would allow a natural nerf through overgearing, rather than a hard and fast nerf like your suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Annah

See, this is what it's all about. You went through it. You know what it's like and you have no quarrels helping those who need help. This is what makes a great community.

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Although it might be hard to believe given my notoriety on the forums, but I am actually a mentor and I believe in genuinely helping people. Doesn't matter what the trial or dungeon is, if I can help mentor people with it, I will, whether or not my mentor flag is up, most of the time (I am extremely particular about when I put my flag up, sometimes I just want a quick run, but I'll always accept the roll of the dice the DF brings and work with it. I also refuse to put my mentor flag up if I'm going into a duty I don't know 99%.).

EDIT: Funnily enough, I look at the mentor requirements and the standards I'll be held to and I just think "Meh, not high enough. I'm gonna hold myself to significantly higher standards than that."

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

If you want a proof this fight is overtuned then at some point it starts repeating itself endlessly without any new gimmicks, only draining healers and tank resources for no reason longer than necessary. The wipes I had were not because people were not doing mechanics, it was because healers were OOM (even with Lucid Dreaming and MP Shifts, you can heal only so long).

In short, it's too long.

Boss' HP should be nerfed by 25%, everything else left intact. And you'll still see the same phases cycling a few times.

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That's how all bosses work though? As a healer I can sympathize with your concerns, but that's why DPS is important as well. DPS need to learn their rotations.

The problem is not the difficulty of the trail but the game itself. It does a really bad job preparing you for what awaits you in endgame. If you ask me this final duty should be gated behind your final job quest and said job quest should be beefed up so you can only clear it if you have a basic grasp of your job and some mechanics you should know by now.
Also some of the effects in this battle can be hard to see at times.

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Originally Posted by Annah

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Good gracious, don't put words into my mouth.

The fact is, overgeared characters carrying along "bad" players has been a major issue brought up again and again on these forums verses properly encouraging players to get those skills. Practice, get better, you got this, good job!

And just FEW POSTS AGO, I mention specifically that players can't even fall upon overgearing THEMSELVES for personal survivability and better damage output if they feel stuck as the very method to do that is locked behind this difficulty spike.

It's a painful fight that I struggled with, but I had an encouraging team them helped me learn and adjust and conquer it.

But ya know, my satisfaction over beating something by my own hand is less than yours. So ya know, just carry the bads and let them remain bad without even knowing it. I'll teach them how to get better. Yeesh.

Finished this with WHM, and I didn't have that problem of loosing MP on my last attempt and any consecutive attempts I had after that, the only reason I found that I lost a lot of MP is due to a lot of people are dying and I'm using up MP just to resurrect them, but if people know what their doing I'm hardly using up any MPs, I even had time to cast a couple of Stone 4 and Aeros at Rhygal.

This was one by far the most satisfying boss battles I've ever done and nothing felt so great as finishing it with all the hardships I went through to do it, Denying that to other players by nerfing it is the greatest disservice the developers could ever do to them, games should be challenging, everybody should know their roles and they are all working together to finish it, making it easier would make it boring.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Good gracious, don't put words into my mouth.

The fact is, overgeared characters carrying along "bad" players has been a major issue brought up again and again on these forums verses properly encouraging players to get those skills. Practice, get better, you got this, good job!

And just FEW POSTS AGO, I mention specifically that players can't even fall upon overgearing THEMSELVES for personal survivability and better damage output if they feel stuck as the very method to do that is locked behind this difficulty spike.

It's a painful fight that I struggled with, but I had an encouraging team them helped me learn and adjust and conquer it.

But ya know, my satisfaction over beating something by my own hand is less than yours. So ya know, just carry the bads and let them remain bad without even knowing it. I'll teach them how to get better. Yeesh.

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yeah you still don't get it.

it's ok tho

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Originally Posted by Clawbriar

On the other hand, I kinda feel if you're level 70, you should have a good enough grasp of what to do by now.

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People said that at 50 and 60 too...

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

The fact is, overgeared characters carrying along "bad" players has been a major issue brought up again and again on these forums verses properly encouraging players to get those skills. Practice, get better, you got this, good job!

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I think it's a problem in any MMO. Ideally, I think everyone has the ability to reach a decent level of gameplay. But the problem is players have to want to get better. That's why I'm leaning towards the side of giving players the ability to carry, because you're basically rolling a die when you queue using DF.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Once more people become better geared as time goes on, the fight will become more trivial.

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I want to be able to pug in with a group of bonus for the trial and be able to learn and clear the fight within the hour allocated. The problem with "overgearing" the fight is that further gearing options are locked behind clearing this trial. Higher geared players shouldn't be a requirement and there will be no overgearing for the bonus players until Verity is phased out and the gear is acquired via hunt seals. I supported the eventual overgearing plus echo argument for Final Steps of Faith and I still support that. But I 100% reject the overgearing argument when the only way to overgear the fight is locked behind the fight. Not having access to the tome vendor was a poor design decision on the part of the devs. And I hate actually arguing in favor of a nerf, but I think they messed up the timing of this fight in this case - it's too soon in the expansion.

just finished the game a minute ago, it was hard probably failed like 15 times, tried on 3 groups, finally get it done on the 3rd group

- need to lower the difficulty just a bit but make sure it wont ruin the experience
- damage is too much for undergeared new/casual players just like myself who basically just doing DF to save time grouping with some random people most of the time they are just a bunch of newbies too.

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Originally Posted by Toothie-Cat

just finished the game a minute ago, it was hard probably failed like 15 times, tried on 3 groups, finally get it done on the 3rd group

- need to lower the difficulty just a bit but make sure it wont ruin the experience
- damage is too much for undergeared new/casual players just like myself who basically just doing DF to save time grouping with some random people most of the time they are just a bunch of newbies too.

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Did you do your 70 job quest? Cuz it gives you i290 gear/weapon. They make it impossible to be undergeared in that fight lol. Maybe they need to make it a prereq to doing the final dungeon, having done your lvl 70 quest

I have yet to see it take more than 2 wipes in DF.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

That's the point of the carry. That one new player can spend the entire fight dead and still get through it easily if everyone else does the work. Their personal gear is entirely irrelevant.

The real trick is to make the rewards for helping a first timer through Menagerie worth a damn. Right now, even with the first time bonus, it's more efficient to do a single PvP match than to one-shot that fight with a decent group.

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MSQ shouldn't require a carry to make it through (honestly, this fight doesn't require a carry for people to make it through, but it can only take so many mistakes before everything crashes and burns - the healer check involved might be a bit much at the moment.) Being carried doesn't help players become better.

Otherwise, I agree that there's a lack of incentive to encourage players to stick around and teach and aid in the clear.

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Originally Posted by Annah

yeah you still don't get it.

it's ok tho

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I apparently don't.

My stance: I think we should take the time to teach and learn, but also give players overgearing options for themselves to have multible means of improvement. Carrying without constructively aiding bad players improve just broadens skill gap.

Your stance (as I understand it): We definitely should help explain stuff, but not being okay with simply carrying struggling, undergeared, and/or underskilled players makes you an asshole.

I think that's contradictory and an unfortunate take. "I took the time to learn the in-and-outs of this fight to beat it, I feel good," and "I struggled here so I put in extra time grinding better gear to help boost my stats to give me an edge and beat it, and I feel good."

That's what I'm saying we should be able to do. We can't do either if people are dropping out from frustration and gear grinding is locked behind it.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

I have mixed opinions on this. It trains you on the fundamentals used for the Primals, and I think it does it well. On the other hand, I know a number of people who will never clear it without being carried. So yes, the suggestion that it gates main story quest content is a valid one.

But, it will end up in Duty Finder eventually, and will have a Tomestone reward for having more geared people carry the less geared people, so... I dunno. It could receive a nerf, but I think other systems in the game address the difficulty concerns. Those will more ability will get to new content faster, which creates the skill tiers the better players seem to want, while still letting everyone see all the MSQ content once it hits Duty Finder. Nothing really out of place, from my perspective.

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If it were only my skills that I had to rely on to clear I'd be just fine. Even if I failed: at least it's all on me. But there are 8 players in party. You're at the whim of everyone else in there as well.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

I want to be able to pug in with a group of bonus for the trial and be able to learn and clear the fight within the hour allocated.

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Well I mean, you can. Most people did. The fight's entirely possible to do in 290 left / leveling right side gear. I know this because for the first week that was pretty much the way you did it.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Being carried doesn't help players become better.

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Having no challenges along the way doesn't either. Sometimes bad players need a bit of encouragement to get better.

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Otherwise, I agree that there's a lack of incentive to encourage players to stick around and teach and aid in the clear.

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This has been a recurring problem; the first time bonus for trials is really small and piddly. If it were, say, 100 Verity and at a point when most of us are grinding out tomes like mad for our relic weapon, you betcha people would jump at the opportunity to join in.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Well I mean, you can. Most people did. The fight's entirely possible to do in 290 left / leveling

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Part of the possibility of pugging it also depends on when you do it. It's easier to do earlier after release, but the number of traps seems to increase as you move along. You queue in and it seems like people are dying to unavoidable damage and later on, in complete hindsight, you learn that the WHM of the party NEVER cast Medica to help heal up for / from the unavoidable damage. Sorry, just a bit salty. I'm also ... how do you not use Medica? I'm not sure how or if you can actually fix that.

It'd be really great if the fight were side content.

Actually managed to do this at long last since my last post.

Died simply to being in the wrong place at the wrong time for Tidal Wave -- at 4%. Still managed to clear it with 6 out of 8 alive, the first time, in Duty Finder. None of the mechanics were anything I've never seen before, unlike the Steps of Faith, so there's no excuse there. Consider the content doesn't need nerfing, you just need buffing.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Part of the possibility of pugging it also depends on when you do it. It's easier to do earlier after release, but the number of traps seems to increase as you move along. You queue in and it seems like people are dying to unavoidable damage and later on, in complete hindsight, you learn that the WHM of the party NEVER cast Medica to help heal up for / from the unavoidable damage. Sorry, just a bit salty. I'm also ... how do you not use Medica? I'm not sure how or if you can actually fix that.

It'd be really great if the fight were side content.

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Personally Medica is my last choice of AoE heal. Scratch that, Cure III is my last choice, but Medica is low on the list.

Medica II has a longer range and has a regen effect. The regen effect usually ensures topped off HP over 30 seconds. And Medica II generates less initial aggro, although more over time.

Assize heals as much as Medica, restores 10% of my MP, is instant cast and does damage as well.

I do use Medica when applicable but as I said low on the list.

Cure 3 needs to be used mroe, its a heal bomb. Ive seen so many wipes that wouldnt have happened if the whm had just used it instead of medica 2.

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Originally Posted by Annah

This (sometimes) means the DPS isn't there. As a healer myself, i know you can do this fight without running out (of manna). We have a lot of mechanics that prevents this from happening. But if we ran out of manna in this fight it means one of two (or both) things EDIT: well, three:

1. DPS isn't the greatest (which causes a super long fight which causes manna drain)
2. Lots of folks stepping in bad goo and getting hurt harder or dying (which causes a greater manna drain for resurrections)
3. Healers are not utilizing cool down and other manna saving abilities

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4 . Dps ain't hitting the tail when it smacks down..

Every time the tail is busted the boss takes 400k damage.

Only unlocked and cleared the fight yesterday but that was the biggest problem in most of my runs. People pretty much smacking the boss and ignoring the tail

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Cure 3 needs to be used mroe, its a heal bomb. Ive seen so many wipes that wouldnt have happened if the whm had just used it instead of medica 2.

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I'll keep that in mind for parties that are low on HP. Hmm, actually thinking of Royal Menagerie, I do see where I could get some use out of it. But mana efficiency does concern me, especially if DPS aren't hitting the tail.

According to this post, it's situational.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'll keep that in mind for parties that are low on HP. Hmm, actually thinking of Royal Menagerie, I do see where I could get some use out of it. But mana efficiency does concern me, especially if DPS aren't hitting the tail.

According to this post, it's situational.

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cure 3 will pretty much top off a party after any high raid damage. medica 2 is prep for raid damage, or after when no more raid damage is going out for the near future. If you have a heavy hit followed by a heavy hit, medica 2 is not worth.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

cure 3 will pretty much top off a party after any high raid damage. medica 2 is prep for raid damage, or after when no more raid damage is going out for the near future. If you have a heavy hit followed by a heavy hit, medica 2 is not worth.

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Yeah, I'll generally precast Medica II so it goes off right after raid damage.

I would love for it to remain at the difficulty it is at. Thordan in Heavensward, while certainly not lacking in presentation didn't feel all that epic or rewarding to do in i145 gear. You beat on him and he died, but failing the mechanics basically didn't matter at all. Having to actually put in effort to beat the Royal Menagerie isn't a problem to me at all frankly.

One of the reasons this is a pain is due to the high amount of players who can't be assed doing their 70 job quest.

I only have issues with that giant ass near map-wide fly over. Earth breath is also a Game Over if people aren't smart enough to manage it.

But over time this seems like a thing that will only get easier as people get more gear. Even if individuals can't get gear yet, people with the Trial Roulette will

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

One of the reasons this is a pain is due to the high amount of players who can't be assed doing their 70 job quest.

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This is definitely an issue. I agree with the person earlier who suggested the level 70 group content should be locked off until you finish your 70 job quest.