What is this new anti dps healer attitude?

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Lolwut? My Insta healer queues tell me that im the vip.

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Trust me, it take a lot less time to replace a healer than a tank right now.

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Originally Posted by NinefoldRakshasa

Trust me, it take a lot less time to replace a healer than a tank right now.

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Thats your experience. Not mine.

Healers shouldn't be required to dps, but it certainly was a UNIQUE NOVELTY that Tanks and healers of sufficient skill could contribute to DPS in a meaningful way. Its the main reason I enjoyed playing a healer in this game so much vs others. The anti DPS attitude is reasonable in some cases but I've seen more healers skillfully stance dance and speed up runs than I have seen healers sit around with a book/astroglobe/staff up their behind. I remember when I was just starting to get down cleric stance I just straight up told the party I was trying to get better and would stop if anything started to become problematic. Most groups encouraged my behavior in this way and rarely yelled at me for it.

If people communicated properly I feel like I wouldn't be loosing one of the most fun aspects of my role in damage contribution up time while maintaining full party health. People who feel Healers and tank should only do their role, stop. People who think they should be obligated to dps, stop. It should be a choice and it should be a meaningful choice to provide that extra contribution to the party. The fights shouldn't be designed around additional healer / tank dps but it should be an option for skilled groups to progress faster or to push the limit. The problem I see with the stance dancing gone from healers and damage reduction on tanks is a community problem.

The problem is that for those of us versed enough in our job to do it now have less to do and the playstyle feels less engaging, at least from a SCH perspective (our job is BASED on a DPS you know). The problem is also people who think the roles should be niche and fit exactly into a bubble. The healing feels like it always did albeit with less impact. Im fine with tanks taking more damage, im fine with higher raid damage, I am a healer after all. But please dont take away the playstyle, its really the only reason I play a healer on this game. Skilled players should still have meaningful dps contribution which would only be made more challenging from the increase in damage tanks seem to be taking while also providing means that people cant really complain about if the healer only heals due to the increased damage. When I say meaningful DPS I mean comparable to a average non raid low end dps. Nothing too big but with it you could save a few minutes in a run.

Personally, I find that as long as people aren't dying, I don't care if the healer DPSes or not. I don't overpull and I use my CDs, as well as toss heals on myself because my job is holding hate and mitigating damage.

That said, I have seen healers, as far down the road as Doma Castle, who blow all their MP aoeing and cause either a wipe or near wipe needlessly. I have no problems with healers who toss out damage, but your main job is keeping people alive. If you wanna blow stuff up and toss the occasional heal, play RDM.

Maybe the previous point is off but it really doesn't feel meaningful or impactful when I deal damage anymore and that is my main concern.

/rantover

first and for most a drk mp is more important then a healers dps. W/o mp drks can't tank, they need darkside up to use dark arts, they need to build blood gage and bloodprice helps.

though tbh that is no longer an issue due to Delirium, and darkside no longer ticking away mp. My g/f nor myself has had mp issues with the changes.

Neither my g/f and I have no issue with a healer who deals damage, we do have issues with healers who drain their mp. Tanks outside of pld do not have a large amount of buffs to pool from.

healers should heal first then dps, i've seen healer let me or my g/f drop to 20% hp before curing, and yes my g/f does use her cd and well.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

If people communicated properly I feel like I wouldn't be loosing one of the most fun aspects of my role in damage contribution up time while maintaining full party health. People who feel Healers and tank should only do their role, stop. People who think they should be obligated to dps, stop. It should be a choice and it should be a meaningful choice to provide that extra contribution to the party. The fights shouldn't be designed around additional healer / tank dps but it should be an option for skilled groups to progress faster or to push the limit. The problem I see with the stance dancing gone from healers and damage reduction on tanks is a community problem.

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no fight is designed with healer dps in mind yoshida said this 4 times. emphasizing it highly.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Let me just correct you on this. My SO tanks. He is a GREAT tank. I don't just say that because he is my SO. When he isn't so great or slacking, I tell him so. I'VE noticed how hard he is getting hit. I asked him if he was slacking. He wasn't.

They ARE using their CD's. They ARE mitigating. They ARE getting hit like trucks.

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Except a lot of DF tanks seem to pop Rampart, and then call it a day. A lot of the tanks I've encountered want to go balls to the wall, pull everything, and then think that a 20% mitigation is going to keep them alive when the only AOE that seems to be going out is that of my Gravity spam (lots of melee DPS in the groups I've been in, and I don't know why they continue to be allergic to AOE skills). The icing on the cake is that they're still gearing up/leveling, or using an outdated/outleveled weapon, and cannot hold aggro to save their life. I have ran all of my SB dungeons exclusively without a tank that I personally knew, and at the most with just one other person I'm friends with, so they're always 50% or more randoms. The tanks I've met like this are very common.

Speaking from my AST perspective, if I have to spam Benefic II on you as a tank and pray to RNGesus for Boles, you should probably learn some proper CD management (yes, I watch my tanks as they pull, and watch to see which CDs they use), or stop trying to bite off more than you can chew. Had a tank in the Level 65 Dungeon a couple days ago when I hit 65 on AST decide to chain pull three packs of mobs, half of which he lost to the RDM in the group (who died), and then said mobs came to chew on me (and then I died). What did the tank do after we all reset? The very same thing. No one died this time, but I watched them closely, and they barely used ANY cooldowns (and I didn't get to so much as DoT the mobs because their health was bouncing up and down like a bouncy ball). Do tanks like this not learn from their previous deaths on pulls like this? (Speaking for myself, my AST was relatively geared for her level--which was 65--still using her Anima Lux Relic, because it's still relevant at 65, so I really don't think it was a question of my gear. When I do get a tank that uses their cooldowns well, even on large pulls in these leveling dungeons, I can still juggle healing and DPS without anyone dying or even coming close to dying.)

Speaking from my BRD perspective, if you chain pull, expect me to AOE. I expect you to properly rotate between all those mobs you decided to pull (and use your AOE skills, which, PLDs, YOU HAVE ONE NOW SO USE IT PLEASE) to hold aggro. I should not be ripping hate from you during my Mage's+Rain of Death/Army's+Quick Nock AOE spam. I should not be taking damage because you cannot hold hate (which is just more stress on the healers, because now they have to stop contributing to DPS, or healing you, to heal me or the other DPS that ended up with aggro).

And, finally, speaking to the other DPS: if the tank chain pulls, please help out with AOE damage by using your AOE skills. All DPS have AOE skills, and after a certain point, they become a higher DPS gain than your single target combos. All DPS also have resource management skills, so use them in combination with your AOE spam to offset any resource drain you may experience (Invigorate/Lucid Dreaming are your friends; use them). The longer things take to die, the more strain it puts on both the tank (from running out of CDs) and the healer (from having to spam heal the tank who now has no CDs left). Running the Level 70 dungeons for verity, I see so many of my co-DPS (usually always melee or a BLM that only wants to Fire IV) not touching a single AOE skill, leaving me to be the only one AOEing if the healer is unable (or unwilling) to contribute. That puts a lot of strain on me, because even though I'm a BRD and have Tactician/Invigorate, both of them have cooldowns of their own. My TP is not endless (and, honestly, BRD AOE got nerfed when they locked our River of Blood trait behind Mage's Ballad).

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YOU may want to get used to the stance SE is taking; Healers are HEALERS, not DPS. Healers DPS'ing during runs is basically over. Throwing something out, tank's almost dead. That's YOUR fault. People die while you are DPS'ing, your fault.

SE is hardlining the roles.

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This is false. It's not "over"; if it was, SE could have easily removed all offensive spells from healers outside of solo instances where healers would HAVE to DPS to complete them (similar to how they locked Cleric Stance out of PvP). If SE didn't want healers to DPS under any circumstance, I'm sure they would find a way to keep offensive spells out of duties. But they haven't, and the skills are there. If you have the ability to balance healing and DPS, why not use them? Why not help out your party? And finding that balance is not that hard to do, so I really wish more healers would try to find it.

If SE wants healers to be "pure healers" and nothing more, then increase the amount of outgoing damage in all content. Even in the leveling dungeons, if you have a skilled tank that knows how to properly rotate their cooldowns, and skilled DPS who know how and when to AOE, and when to start single-targeting mobs, there isn't enough outgoing damage to demand 100% healing uptime. There's always going to be that downtime, and what are the healers supposed to do then? I prefer to be DPSing. If SE took away my offensive spells, I would honestly stop rolling healer jobs. I dislike just standing there waiting for someone to start taking damage.

Good healers DPS and heal. Bad healers DPS and let people die. I have seen both types. But the bad healers that let party members die because they're too busy DPSing shouldn't cloud your judgment of those of us who CAN balance the two. I have always juggled healing and DPSing, and rarely do I let people die. On the off-chance that I have messed up and someone ended up dead, I call myself out on it, and apologize. I don't get harassed over doing that, either.

HOWEVER, if a person dies due to completely avoidable damage, that is not the fault of the healer, but of that individual. Don't stand in the orange, and dodge the bad things. I don't care about your DPS or your parses. You can't DPS if you're dead, so dodge the avoidable stuff. It's as simple as that. Because if you die on me three times to the same avoidable crap, I stop wasting my MP to raise/heal you.



I also see a lot of people mentioning how these leveling dungeons hit harder. Yes, they do, but if I recall, the HW leveling dungeons were very similar leveling up. Some of the mobs in Dusk Vigil hit stupidly hard compared to the level 50 dungeons. Some of the mobs in The Aery hit stupidly hard, and then we have The Vault (don't need to say much else there). I don't really think this is that new of a thing.

But those of you who say that tanks were spoiled at the end of HW are also right--we aren't at the point where we're overgeared and can zerg everything anymore. We're all leveling again, and we all need to adjust. That goes for everyone: tanks, healers, and DPS.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

YOU may want to get used to the stance SE is taking; Healers are HEALERS, not DPS. Healers DPS'ing during runs is basically over. Throwing something out, tank's almost dead. That's YOUR fault. People die while you are DPS'ing, your fault.

SE is hardlining the roles.

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Then why did they give WHM so much boom? Seriously every other healer had their personal dps cut except WHM. If they didn't want us to DPS Assize would have seen a hit to it's damage componant and Thin Air would only apply to our healing spells rather than letting us rip off a plethora of zero cost Holy casts.

I still have all the tools I need to keep you healthy, including Benediction which can now be used even more often! If I WHM isn't supposed to help DPS when my party is healthy...what else do I do? No duty needs 100% uptime on heals outside maybe Shinryu and even then I can get an Aero 2 in edgewise now and then.

I don't have buffs, I have a single single target shield on a cooldown, and I sure as sugar don't debuff the boss. So do I just stare at cat photos or can I toss some rocks?

I'm just getting used to DPS'ing as a Healer. I hope it doesn't change.

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Originally Posted by Solica

And then, there is the other side. More than once have i gotten critisized for not dpsing with astro, while i was keeping everyone at 100% health at all times and buffing like a crazy person. Yeah...how about no.

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You can only draw cards once every 30 seconds, and Royal Road cards every 30 to 60 seconds (depending on if you were already holding a card or had to start fresh), so the buffing part seems like it would leave you with a lot of downtime after the fact. Also, I hope you aren't overhealing to keep everyone consistently at 100% HP, which, in normal/daily roulette content, isn't necessary. Overhealing is bad, so don't do it. Sure, your DPS shouldn't be clinging to the very last drops in their HP pool, but there isn't enough outgoing damage in daily content where you have to keep everyone topped off 100% of the time.

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I find dpsing with a healer extremely boring , risky and unrewarding. Apart from your tanks getting destroyed, as has happened many times on last trial and in 70 dungs already, when you let a tank very low, he will have to use cooldowns that would have probably been needed at another time. And more importantly, when you let your actual dps on very low amounts of health, their will start prioritizing dodging and surviving than maximizing their dps output. Thats actual huge dps loss just because you wanna cast your crappy malefic/stone or w/e. In late HW, this didnt show that much because of the huge gap in gear, but thats not the case in SB especially with the shift from class difficulty to mobs/bosses difficulty. People need to understand this.

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You're entitled to your opinion, but a skilled healer contributing to DPS is neither risky nor unrewarding: it's a net gain to overall party DPS. And a lot of the healers that willingly juggle DPS and healing don't find the juggle boring at all.

Tanks should not be sitting on their cooldowns. Very rarely are there instances where you want to hold a cooldown for a large hit, and those are very few and far between in normal/daily roulette content (they're more so in extreme trials and savage raids). Tanks should be consistently rotating their cooldowns to make it easier on, not just the healers, but themselves as well. Also, those DPS that like standing in the bad eventually end up as dead DPS, which is an even bigger DPS loss than dodging AOEs. So DPS should always be avoiding the avoidable, not standing in it because MUH DEEPS. You can't DPS if you're dead, so you better be dodging. People need to understand this.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Let me just correct you on this. My SO tanks. He is a GREAT tank. I don't just say that because he is my SO. When he isn't so great or slacking, I tell him so. I'VE noticed how hard he is getting hit. I asked him if he was slacking. He wasn't.

They ARE using their CD's. They ARE mitigating. They ARE getting hit like trucks.

YOU may want to get used to the stance SE is taking; Healers are HEALERS, not DPS. Healers DPS'ing during runs is basically over. Throwing something out, tank's almost dead. That's YOUR fault. People die while you are DPS'ing, your fault.

SE is hardlining the roles.

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Yeah, well, they shouldn't have given me a giant AoE on my AST then. What exactly do you think that's for? Gathering up mobs in the overworld? Gravity costs so much as to make you think about casting it but it's obviously for group play, same with Holy, Aero III, Bane, Shadowflare etc.

I agree people dying if I'm DPS'ing is my fault, that's why I think critically about when to DPS and don't let them die, it's over when I can't stop spamming Heals which isn't yet, not by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

no fight is designed with healer dps in mind yoshida said this 4 times. emphasizing it highly.

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Yeah, thats what I said. Fights shouldn't be.

SB made healer dps really pointless your dmg is much lower fully geared at 70 and I'm doing dmg as if I was still lvl 60 HW, but also I notice either I'm out of mana quick or the tank is taking to big of hits so I don't bother to do it anymore unless we are at a boss (not primals lol won't ever do that at 70 primals) or at some small small mobs that don't do anything but currently at 70 if I am tanking I do not wanna see the healer dps'n or someone is going to die lol and as a healer at 70 I don't bother since the tank pulls half the dungeon anyways which I'm not complaining because dps is much higher this time around for dps....SB said good bye to you guys healer and tank meta which you can only blame each other for

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

SB made healer dps really pointless your dmg is much lower fully geared at 70 and I'm doing dmg as if I was still lvl 60 HW. I notice either I'm out of mana quick or the tank is taking to big of hits so I don't bother to do it anymore unless we are at a boss.

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Not sure what healer you're playing but if you are running out of mana on a WHM you need to reconsider your cooldown usage. Between the fact that both of our instant 'oh fudge' heals are zero mana, the fact that Asylum costs nothing, the fact that Assize actively refunds our mana, the fact that Lucid Dreaming refunds more mana than SoS used to, and the almighty Thin Air to allow us to cast without cost...you are honestly doing it wrong if you find yourself running dry. I can still spam out Holy, Aero 3, Holy, Cure 2 and you'll not only be alive, I'll still have 90% of my mana. WHM has 99 problems but mana really isn't one.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

I am tanking I do not wanna see the healer dps'n or someone is going to die lol and as a healer at 70 I don't bother since the tank pulls half the dungeon anyways which I'm not complaining because dps is much higher this time around for dps....SB said good bye to you guys healer and tank meta which you can only blame each other for

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You're right, they did change the meta. They removed old Cleric Stance which means as long as I'm paying attention I can keep my tank healed and DPS much much easier. Don't get me wrong, if you are a squishy squishy tank who's still pulling like this is three weeks ago and you outgear everything...you will die. But that's on you, not me. I've said this before on this thread, if you pull enough stuff that you die in the 2.5 seconds it takes me to cast Aero 3 it doesn't matter because Cure 2 has the same cast time and you'd have been dead before it healed you.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

no fight is designed with healer dps in mind yoshida said this 4 times. emphasizing it highly.

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I remember when Yoshida said this about Gordian savage.

I remember when it was never true throughout the entire lifespan of that piece of content.

I have not run into people complaining about me DPSing as healer.

What I have run into is MP starvation despite throwing as many Ewer's and Lucid Dreams on myself cause I keep running into squishy as hell tanks that force me to do straight pure healing. And then the fights take forever as the DPS does not AoE like it used to. So often times I am running on empty by the time we get to bosses and then they pull. More then once I have run out of MP mid boss fight and had to simply bubble myself next to the tank so he could benefit from the damage reduction and regen while I let my cooldowns and mana regen.

Pretty out of the topic, but...

I feel like the healers quality has fallen so much with the expansion, at least on the pugs I participated, the more grotesque mistakes have been made by healers, maybe they've got too comfortable with the game current state overflowing with dps left and right and healers being quicly invited for any group that they don't even botter looking up for guides for EX fights before joining in?

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Let me just correct you on this. My SO tanks. He is a GREAT tank. I don't just say that because he is my SO. When he isn't so great or slacking, I tell him so. I'VE noticed how hard he is getting hit. I asked him if he was slacking. He wasn't.

They ARE using their CD's. They ARE mitigating. They ARE getting hit like trucks.

YOU may want to get used to the stance SE is taking; Healers are HEALERS, not DPS. Healers DPS'ing during runs is basically over. Throwing something out, tank's almost dead. That's YOUR fault. People die while you are DPS'ing, your fault.

SE is hardlining the roles.

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I just ran Baelsar's Wall this morning and pulled over 2,000 DPS consistently; well over 4,000 on the bigger mob packs. And all I used for healing was Regen, Medica II, Tetra and the occasional Cure/Cure II. Keep in mind, I have an averagely geared tank and one DPS who was ilvl 235. Doing the 61 dungeon today, the tank did mass pulls without any sort of hindrance whatsoever and the overwhelming census has been both EX Primals are complete jokes. So... what exactly is SE hardlining here? They may want healers to focus more on healing, but they aren't going to up the damage. We already know Omega Savage won't be harder than Creator-- I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it wound up easier. Therefore, healers will have ample opportunity to DPS and the expectations will continue.

And no. It is only a healer's fault if people die because they weren't healed through unavoidable damage. If some moron keeps getting clipped by the same aoes, it isn't the healers fault. Frankly, I will prioritize damage over healing someone who can't be bothered to dodge mechanics because I am not your babysitter.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Let me just correct you on this. My SO tanks. He is a GREAT tank. I don't just say that because he is my SO. When he isn't so great or slacking, I tell him so. I'VE noticed how hard he is getting hit. I asked him if he was slacking. He wasn't.

They ARE using their CD's. They ARE mitigating. They ARE getting hit like trucks.

YOU may want to get used to the stance SE is taking; Healers are HEALERS, not DPS. Healers DPS'ing during runs is basically over. Throwing something out, tank's almost dead. That's YOUR fault. People die while you are DPS'ing, your fault.

SE is hardlining the roles.

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And here I am, running dungeons with healers in my FC and am able to chain pull while mitigating damage in a way so that the healers can still DPS while keeping me alive. If my healer wants to DPS, then as a tank I will find a way to let them DPS.

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Pretty out of the topic, but...

I feel like the healers quality has fallen so much with the expansion, at least on the pugs I participated, the more grotesque mistakes have been made by healers, maybe they've got too comfortable with the game current state overflowing with dps left and right and healers being quicly invited for any group that they don't even botter looking up for guides for EX fights before joining in?

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From playing both the Healer and DPS side, being a healer right now is painful. Unless its a decent paladin or decent dark knight tank your tank is in general going to be pretty damn squishy and the higher on average damage output also means that DPS tend to take a lot more damage then they are used to. With a lot of tanks just chain pulling like this is ilvl 260s in dungeons balanced around 215s it is common to see healers basically running a marathon through the dungeon at half MP with barely anything to lend in DPSing the groups down. Commendations out to the helpful BLMs who keep throwing MP at the healers between pulls.

Then you got DPS who refuse to or have not adapted to the new and new/old AoEs. Its not surprising to see big mistakes from healers, they are running at a very different pace then the other classes right now.

As an AST I can tell you that the only time you should be DPSing is when 1. Tank is geared and knows how to use cooldowns. 2. The tank is only pulling 1 group at a time and not pulling 2 and 3. 3. With the amount of big D hits mobs are making and the amount of MP they are having to use to spike heal DPS who cant stay out of AoE's, Waisting your MP on DPS is not worth it. Our DPS is garbage anyways... at least as an AST I havent played with SCH or WHM but I dont imagine its any better.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I remember when Yoshida said this about Gordian savage.

I remember when it was never true throughout the entire lifespan of that piece of content.

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doing content at a lower item level does that. Still, it true, I've had healer just heal in HW content, never bothered me and we won regardless. If you lost or had issues, it a team issue.

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Originally Posted by NewSinz

As an AST I can tell you that the only time you should be DPSing is when 1. Tank is geared and knows how to use cooldowns. 2. The tank is only pulling 1 group at a time and not pulling 2 and 3. 3. With the amount of big D hits mobs are making and the amount of MP they are having to use to spike heal DPS who cant stay out of AoE's, Waisting your MP on DPS is not worth it. Our DPS is garbage anyways... at least as an AST I havent played with SCH or WHM but I dont imagine its any better.

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as an AST main, I can tell you that youre wrong.

YOU cant, I can.

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Pretty out of the topic, but...

I feel like the healers quality has fallen so much with the expansion, at least on the pugs I participated, the more grotesque mistakes have been made by healers, maybe they've got too comfortable with the game current state overflowing with dps left and right and healers being quicly invited for any group that they don't even botter looking up for guides for EX fights before joining in?

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That's because looking at a guide is not helpful without playing it. When the content is new, the guide can also be incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

as an AST main, I can tell you that youre wrong.

YOU cant, I can.

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I'm curious to what AST your playing because I main it too and I come from dps'n majority of the time in HW content to always coasting the out of mana line or out of mana line....as much Ewers, enhanced ewers, or timing lucid dream I do if I go dps and do a couple gravitys on a big pull I'm most likely out close to running out or just plain out of mana....lucid dream has a longer cd then our old refresh which made this issue non existent but now fully geared in an expert roulette, a WAR chain pulls he's going to be taking heavy dmg even if using mitigation, there is no room to dps or either you use all your mana keeping him up...I just don't see how and I'm used to dps'n in savage and everything

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

I'm curious to what AST your playing because I main it too and I come from dps'n majority of the time in HW content to always coasting the out of mana line or out of mana line....as much Ewers, enhanced ewers, or timing lucid dream I do if I go dps and do a couple gravitys on a big pull I'm most likely out close to running out or just plain out of mana....lucid dream has a longer cd then our old refresh which made this issue non existent but now fully geared in an expert roulette, a WAR chain pulls he's going to be taking heavy dmg even if using mitigation, there is no room to dps or either you use all your mana keeping him up...I just don't see how and I'm used to dps'n in savage and everything

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Lucid dreaming and celestial opposition have the same CD. You pair those two together and you won't run out. If you run out of mana gravity'ing and the mobs aren't dead yet, your party's DPS must really suck.

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Originally Posted by NewSinz

As an AST I can tell you that the only time you should be DPSing is when 1. Tank is geared and knows how to use cooldowns. 2. The tank is only pulling 1 group at a time and not pulling 2 and 3. 3. With the amount of big D hits mobs are making and the amount of MP they are having to use to spike heal DPS who cant stay out of AoE's, Waisting your MP on DPS is not worth it. Our DPS is garbage anyways... at least as an AST I havent played with SCH or WHM but I dont imagine its any better.

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>"Our DPS is garbage" but I've been carrying people through expert roulette? No sweetie, the dps a good ast can do is on par with your average dps. With the new CDs AST can have which are FREE mind you, we aren't wasting MP. For the record, SCH and WHM will do more DPS than an AST by far. Its amazing what stacking 2 regens can do for a tank lol.

I've been reading the replies from people and I love how the people who say that healers can't dps are the ones who A) don't main it, B) don't play it optimally or C) are just too scared to dps bc big spikes and its not worth it bs. Just because you don't have self awareness doesn't mean the dpsing healer doesn't as well. Some of us don't want to be Healbots TM.

After hitting 70 on warrior I can easily say there's a lot of room for healers to DPS during things still.
Not sure why people think Stormblood changed something.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

After hitting 70 on warrior I can easily say there's a lot of room for healers to DPS during things still.
Not sure why people think Stormblood changed something.

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A large amount of tanks i've had drop like a brick when i neglect them for even a moment, even if it's to heal someone else. I don't know if it's because they're not managing CDs properly, or aren't stacking the right stats. But from what i can tell, Vit no longer increases tank damage, and we're back to tanks like like to stack STR to max out their damage.

I've had few tanks that actually can soak up damage, and they're nice, but i don't get them often.

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Originally Posted by Averax

A large amount of tanks i've had drop like a brick when i neglect them for even a moment, even if it's to heal someone else. I don't know if it's because they're not managing CDs properly, or aren't stacking the right stats. But from what i can tell, Vit no longer increases tank damage, and we're back to tanks like like to stack STR to max out their damage.

I've had few tanks that actually can soak up damage, and they're nice, but i don't get them often.

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I have heard from tanks that Vit no long does do that. STR is their main agro stat now.

If you can keep people alive. Fine.

But if you are overhelming the other healer or gets OOM. No one will apreciate it.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

doing content at a lower item level does that. Still, it true, I've had healer just heal in HW content, never bothered me and we won regardless. If you lost or had issues, it a team issue.

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Oscura's statement is correct, though. Gordias Savage was way overtuned for the relevant MAX ilvl back when it was released, and A3S in particular did require healers to DPS to meet DPS checks. The developers later admitted that Gordias Savage had not be tuned/tested properly enough.


As for those saying they can't find time to DPS at the current endgame ilvl, I think the issue there lies more so with your tank not properly managing their cooldowns, not properly managing their gear, or just thinking they still outgear the content by several dozen ilvls and don't need to care about either. I've done plenty of 70 dungeon runs where the healers DPS just fine with a tank that knows how to properly manage everything. I'm sure I won't have any problems when my AST hits 70 if I'm paired with a good tank as well.

What's your problem with healer dps? I really don't get it.

As long as you don't die, what do you care what the healer is doing? On top of that, more DPS = faster clears.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

I'm curious to what AST your playing because I main it too and I come from dps'n majority of the time in HW content to always coasting the out of mana line or out of mana line....as much Ewers, enhanced ewers, or timing lucid dream I do if I go dps and do a couple gravitys on a big pull I'm most likely out close to running out or just plain out of mana....lucid dream has a longer cd then our old refresh which made this issue non existent but now fully geared in an expert roulette, a WAR chain pulls he's going to be taking heavy dmg even if using mitigation, there is no room to dps or either you use all your mana keeping him up...I just don't see how and I'm used to dps'n in savage and everything

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alynn

Lucid dreaming and celestial opposition have the same CD. You pair those two together and you won't run out. If you run out of mana gravity'ing and the mobs aren't dead yet, your party's DPS must really suck.

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this. tbh I dont always pair celestial and lucid simply because I mainly keep celestial to extend balances OR because I need a stun. But I do sometimes extend lucid with it too.
What actually happens to me a lot more is that I get a Spear card from Sleeve Draw etc and use it on me and Lucid right afterwards which means it will have a reduced recast timer.

I actually really play a lot of cards but I wont shy away from using a single ewer on me whenever it comes in handy either.
Then there's Lightspeed which reduces your MP costs by 25%.

As I have said in this thread multiple times, I dont shy away from using CDs. I throw them around like candy.

What I basically generally do is play AST in Diurnal. Tank pulls (ironically, my premade has a warrior tank which you say is so squishy,but hes fine)...and once he stops I place my Earthly star at a central spot.
I use Largesse and cast Aspected Helios as well as Aspected Benefic on to the tank. If its an especially big pull, I pop Collective Unconcious as well.
If I have a single Bole, the tank gets it. This is where I start casting quite a few gravities and heal up with benefic II inbetween as needed.
I'll typically not touch my earthly star before 10 seconds are up, because I want the stronger Giant Dominance. So I'll try to use it when the tank needs healing and theres still
enough mobs around to get the damage from it as well. That's a strong instant back up heal right there that I can use to keep dpsing rather than casting a heal spell.
You can also follow that heal up with a Lady of Crowns if you have one. And you should always have a Minor Arcana saved anyway.
If I need 2-3 seconds to "breathe", I use Celestial for its stun. If theres Lucid or anything else nice to pair it up with, I'll do that.


If my tank is in a critical situation and my regens have run out already, I can use Essential Dignity and/or Lightspeed if needed to heal up and reapply regens if needed.
Heck I can even spam gravity if I have some seconds of Lightspeed left after that.

Then theres situational stuff like cards. I typically also buff a spread balance to the party if I have a second balance at hand (happens a lot...so yeah, I play cards all the time.
Not only during boss fights.)
or use 2 single balances on each DPS (if theyre good...if not, I might just use one on me for when I spam gravity because that will do more than a DPS whos not AoEing or busy netflixing)
Basically,whatever helps killing the packs faster. My war tank usually gets a lot of spontanious spires and boles on the way. I suggest using Sleeve Draw a lot.

I blow pretty much all of my cooldowns to get the tank healed nicely, spam Gravity, use Earthly star/minor arcana/Celestial to create some more room for me to dps
and after that, most of the adds should be dead. At least half of my cds will also be back soon enough for the next pull.


Dont know, tbh I never even really played AST in dungeons because I think WHM is much better for this, but I kinda main AST for ex and savage fights.
So when Stormblood came out, I lvled my AST first and didnt really know whats the best way to play them in dungeons.

Maybe my way is garbage and theres some better ways, but all I can say is that it worked for me. MP was mainly a problem in the beginning,but a lot of lvling and lvl 70 gear have tons of piety loaded on them,so
the MP situation also eases up a bit as you lvl.


I find AST quite situational so I may have forgotten to mention 2-3 things, but this will hopefully give you an idea what I do.
And I've done that since Stormblood Day 1 even while I was in lvling dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Sereph6

What's your problem with healer dps? I really don't get it.

As long as you don't die, what do you care what the healer is doing? On top of that, more DPS = faster clears.

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Was this is response to me? O.o Or the OP? Because neither of us have issues with healers DPSing. Both of us DPS as healers ourselves.

Oh so I'm fine then? I feel I can't dps as much as before because tanks are squishy and dps can't take down shit as fast as before. And since I can't choose between using Malefic I instead of Malefic II when my mana pool is below half I simply stop all dps :P

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Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

Oh so I'm fine then? I feel I can't dps as much as before because tanks are squishy and dps can't take down shit as fast as before. And since I can't choose between using Malefic I instead of Malefic II when my mana pool is below half I simply stop all dps :P

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You're right about not being able to DPS as much, we no longer outgear the content by wide margin anymore so everyone is having to pay just a wee bit more attention these days. It's also smart to set yourself limits, nobody in this thread is advocating for people to DPS irresponsibly. It's just a discussion between folks who think any healer dps is irresponsible and those of us who know we are capable of managing our resources properly.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

And thats when I suddenly get to hear a lot of stuff like "healers heal" and "your dps time is over since stormblood released"....... Umm what? They just removed cleric stance, why would my dps time be over?

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thats the time when you let your evil side take over and let that person die on purpose :P

I have no problems with healers dps'n, if we wipe we wipe its a learning curve to understand which trials / raids its possible and which to try to do it but have your main focus on healing.