Why are bad hunt behavior rewarded?

So much this.
People just 2 stupid now days to understand that this is an mmo.
I really want there to be open pvp to kill this people.

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Originally Posted by Kit-Kat

Pretty much this. I was one of those waiting for LS calls, yet I knew the risk. I wouldn't demand anything when I didn't work for it. I saw a call, I went to the spot, mob is dead? oh well bad luck, try again next time. It's basically free rewards for no effort, why do people complain with this entitlement nonsense.

You're lucky enough someone is sharing the info with you, if people had to keep waiting for the whole server to arrive, marks would never die. If you think it's greedy, what do you call expecting to get ALL full rewards without lifting a finger?

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THIS!!! is absolutely correct. If you're fast enough you'll get the reward, otherwise just try it next time. Where's the problem? If you really need hunt-marks, it is absolutely easy to get them with active hunt or something. This is how hunts work.
But on Shiva they're waiting for about 5min. Sometimes even more.
That's a really long time and everyone who call this "early pull" (there's always this one guy...) should get banished (imo).

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

So much this.
People just 2 stupid now days to understand that this is an mmo.
I really want there to be open pvp to kill this people.

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I'm not entirely sure where your stance is with this, but I'm assuming you read only the OP and replied.

Yes, it's an MMO, and people group up to find the hunts and kill it. They do that, why should they have to wait for the entire server who weren't seeking it, taking 5 minutes in loading screen to get there? They have the group, they were actively hunting, why should they wait on leechers? It's an MMO, not WPSYCL "We Play So You Can Leech"

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

I'm not entirely sure where your stance is with this, but I'm assuming you read only the OP and replied.

Yes, it's an MMO, and people group up to find the hunts and kill it. They do that, why should they have to wait for the entire server who weren't seeking it, taking 5 minutes in loading screen to get there? They have the group, they were actively hunting, why should they wait on leechers? It's an MMO, not WPSYCL "We Play So You Can Leech"

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People become afraid of what others think of them. People are afraid of making someone else upset. That's the why they wait.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

People become afraid of what others think of them. People are afraid of making someone else upset. That's the why they wait.

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Waiting should not even be expected. If you want to hunt, go out and find them, that is the whole point of Hunting. Waiting on people to leech off is the absolute worst, those are the people I think so much less of.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Waiting should not even be expected. If you want to hunt, go out and find them, that is the whole point of Hunting. Waiting on people to leech off is the absolute worst, those are the people I think so much less of.

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Oh, I agree. However, people give in to peer pressure quite easily.

All I gather from this thread is ample reason why we shouldn't bother making open world content a thing.

Keep it all instanced, less quarrel.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

All I gather from this thread is ample reason why we shouldn't bother making open world content a thing.

Keep it all instanced, less quarrel.

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Open world content is perfectly fine. An expectancy to do absolutely nothing and still get the rewards is not. We need more open world content, and less laziness. It's things like this that makes me wish mobs were claimed like in XI

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

An expectancy to do absolutely nothing and still get the rewards is not.

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Which is easily solved by making it instanced. You start the instance, do the work, get the reward. And everyone else can start their own instance, do the same work and get the same reward in turn. Whoop-dee-doo, fairness. Can't leech either unless the people you're playing with are okay with that.

You're just feeding more reasons why it shouldn't be a thing. Keep rambling if you like, but everything you say just hurts your own point.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Which is easily solved by making it instanced. You start the instance, do the work, get the reward. And everyone else can start their own instance, do the same work and get the same reward in turn. Whoop-dee-doo, fairness. Can't leech either unless the people you're playing with are okay with that.

You're just feeding more reasons why it shouldn't be a thing. Keep rambling if you like, but everything you say just hurts your own point.

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I honestly don't see how saying people should actively hunt is killing Open World content, instead of telling people to actually do the open world content? Leeching off the people doing the content is killing the content. Why should they add more Open World if only a few people do it, so the many sitting in their homes can go out only to try to get rewards for doing nothing?

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Open world content is perfectly fine. An expectancy to do absolutely nothing and still get the rewards is not. We need more open world content, and less laziness. It's things like this that makes me wish mobs were claimed like in XI

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To be honest, I'm glad they did away with that. While I suppose it sucks for hunts, it doesn't suck for things like expansion, when the game is more populated and everyone is killing the same mobs for the same quest. It makes FFXIV's design choice so much better.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Which is easily solved by making it instanced. You start the instance, do the work, get the reward. And everyone else can start their own instance, do the same work and get the same reward in turn. Whoop-dee-doo, fairness. Can't leech either unless the people you're playing with are okay with that.

You're just feeding more reasons why it shouldn't be a thing. Keep rambling if you like, but everything you say just hurts your own point.

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Game becomes completely hub based, not too dissimilar to Monster Hunter and Phantasy Star. While some might like that, I'm equally glad this wasn't done. There are just so many places that you can visit without having to choose a mission to visit there. Not to mention this massively kills socialization.

If people are seriously so bent out of shape about hunts and the rewards, go use the hunting board. Seals for doing guaranteed mobs at your own pace every day, as well as weekly, without having to worry about other people. Or simply do the other methods of getting the things you want. Not that much is gated only behind hunting seals.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Waiting should not even be expected. If you want to hunt, go out and find them, that is the whole point of Hunting. Waiting on people to leech off is the absolute worst, those are the people I think so much less of.

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If you go out and find the hunt target and then kill it without ever announcing it to the rest of the world, then that is fine. A bit selfish not to share, but no big deal.
If, however, you do announce it to the server in general then you do have a moral obligation to wait a while so all the people you just announced it to have a chance to get there.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

If you go out and find the hunt target and then kill it without ever announcing it to the rest of the world, then that is fine. A bit selfish not to share, but no big deal.
If, however, you do announce it to the server in general then you do have a moral obligation to wait a while so all the people you just announced it to have a chance to get there.

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I used to shout and wait 3-5 minute tops, as that was plenty of time for those in the general area. However, after shouting it, those who received the shout would relay it in LS, FC etc. then we got the people zoning in, instantly complaining that it was dead before their loading screen ended, most of which was actually abusive and insulting. Now I have given up shouting entirely and keep it only to the party I am in.

The problem here is that yes, if you shout you have an obligation to wait for people in the area, however you are not liable for waiting on those not even in the vicinity and should not be yelled out for pulling after those who were actually near and hunting arrived.

Edit: Also if you find the hunt first, and while waiting for your party to gather, someone else finds and shouts it out, you are not obligated to wait.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

... I've often seen people post a "pulling at ____" start time, which is plenty courteous as it gives those who want to get there a known time limit.

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I like that idea. If I am in an area it gives me an idea if I have a chance to make it to the fight or to just keep doing what I'm doing. I look at hunts when I'm out on my own as an added bonus if I can make it but no big deal if I don't. Given how the bosses spawn I think it is common courtesy to let folks now the boss is there and to allow them some time to get on site. Conversely folks trying to make it to the fight are owed no special treatment just because they need a bit more time to get there.

Interesting clash of ethics. Firstly, you have the consequentialists reviewing the outcome: "Regardless of the rules the outcome is unfavorable. Pulling early causes grief." Secondly, you have the deontologists who review only the rules: "As long as you follow the rules, the outcome is irrelevant. Pulling early is within the rules."

Should we differentiate between what is good and what is right or are they one and the same?

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Originally Posted by Asuras

Interesting clash of ethics. Firstly, you have the consequentialists reviewing the outcome: "Regardless of the rules the outcome is unfavorable. Pulling early causes grief." Secondly, you have the deontologists who review only the rules: "As long as you follow the rules, the outcome is irrelevant. Pulling early is within the rules."

Should we differentiate between what is good and what is right or are they one and the same?

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You missed the third group, those of us who don't actually care that it is within the rules, but instead feel insulted by hunting a mob, gathering our group to kill, only to be expected to wait before killing, continuously wait, and then called out with abuse by those who weren't hunting in the first place for early pulling, even if 15-20 minutes has passed.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

You missed the third group, those of us who don't actually care that it is within the rules, but instead feel insulted by hunting a mob, gathering our group to kill, only to be expected to wait before killing, continuously wait, and then called out with abuse by those who weren't hunting in the first place for early pulling, even if 15-20 minutes has passed.

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The innocent "virtuous man (or woman)". Third group.

No matter what the case, no matter how long you wait. If you pull, you're considered to be pulling early. As the group who finds it, you can't win with people, because you're considered selfish and grievers. I'm sorry, but I view it the other way. The ones grieving are the abusive shouters who come in from other zones, the selfish ones are the people expecting to have rights to the rewards the Hunt gives without doing the actual purpose of the content, hunting.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

I really want there to be open pvp to kill this people.

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You add forced open PvP, and I quit the game no questions asked. I've had zero interest in PvP for over 10 years... if there were new PvP realms added I'd be OK with that, but making existing realms open PvP (except for battlegrounds like Seal Rock), nope, that's me out, and no regrets.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Waiting should not even be expected. If you want to hunt, go out and find them, that is the whole point of Hunting. Waiting on people to leech off is the absolute worst, those are the people I think so much less of.

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::applause::

Agreed, Hunts are about getting about and finding things, then killing them. It's not a welfare program designed to provide extra seals for low effort players.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

If you go out and find the hunt target and then kill it without ever announcing it to the rest of the world, then that is fine. A bit selfish not to share, but no big deal.
If, however, you do announce it to the server in general then you do have a moral obligation to wait a while so all the people you just announced it to have a chance to get there.

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That's really silly. I've had S ranks go 10 minutes with a large crowd in front of them and not get pulled. As miraculous as that was, there were still people showing up after it had finally died. It's absurd to think that sharing a hunt location obligates you to wait for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who is super duper all about killing that S rank, but only after they finished their daily itinerary or whatever else it is those slowpokes do before heading out. I don't support early pulling, but people aren't entitled to the mob and it's not fair to keep everyone waiting an inordinate amount of time just because you either don't bother to put yourself in a good situation to find out about hunt mobs early or because you simply don't care enough about everyone else's time to stop wasting it. If you want to make it to hunt mobs, then make it your priority. Drop what you're doing and get there. If it dies before you get there, tough, be faster next time. Join a linkshell, help spawn it, whatever. I sympathize with people who are frustrated that things get pulled within 2 minutes of initial discovery up until the point they start trying to guilt trip, castigate, or otherwise cop an attitude towards me or others for not wasting our time waiting for them after we already spent our time spawning or discovering the mob in the first place. If I find a hunt, I'm sharing it with my linkshells and party first and shout second. I'll wait five minutes or so, a bit longer if there's still signs of life. If you don't get there in that time frame, you only have yourself to blame. There's always next time.

It absolutely sickens me that people encourage discourteous behavior.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

It absolutely sickens me that people encourage discourteous behavior.

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Which one do you consider discourteous though? Demanding that people are waiting 10 minutes for you to get your ass over there because you wanted to finish something else first and getting upset when they dont?
Or people pulling and killing a huntmob they've found or even put the effort in to spawn without waiting for everyone and their mother to get there?

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

It absolutely sickens me that people encourage discourteous behavior.

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You're right, I too am sickened by the amount of people encouraging others to expect a free ride to rewards.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

You're right, I too am sickened by the amount of people encouraging others to expect a free ride to rewards.

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Can you please stop characterizing someone who sees an alert for a boss and goes to help kill it as "expecting a free ride"? It's unnecessarily antagonistic, especially when helping to kill the boss by definition is contributing to the effort of obtaining rewards. This is a video game - not some high-stakes political debate about the nature of society.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Can you please stop characterizing someone who sees an alert for a boss and goes to help kill it as "expecting a free ride"? It's unnecessarily antagonistic, especially when helping to kill the boss by definition is contributing to the effort of obtaining rewards. This is a video game - not some high-stakes political debate about the nature of society.

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If they weren't in the zone, they weren't hunting. The group that gathered first could easily kill the Hunts, they were never hard enough to need more than 8 people. That is expecting a free ride because they didn't work on getting the Hunt in the first place, they were not hunting. They antagonise themselves by shouting with mockery and insults. The ones that accept they didn't get it, and go back to whatever they were doing before, good on them for understanding, but those who have to try and put shame on the group killing the Hunt, I will not back down my stance on, and those who are trying to encourage it are just as bad.

I've tried the waiting game, and no matter how long I waited, I was still a villain to those people who wanted to join in from other zones. As I said before, as the finders of the Hunt/the pullers, you can't win, you're a bad person no matter what you do according to those who can't even be bothered to join in the actual hunting session.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

As I said before, as the finders of the Hunt/the pullers, you can't win, you're a bad person no matter what you do according to those who can't even be bothered to join in the actual hunting session.

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I've also stated that my experience has been exactly the opposite of yours. There is no need to demonize people.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I've also stated that my experience has been exactly the opposite of yours. There is no need to demonize people.

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Then clearly they're not demonizing the people you are talking about. They're talking about a different set of people. And yes, there are plenty of people who are like that. It gets far worse when hunts are popular content.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

If they weren't in the zone, they weren't hunting. The group that gathered first could easily kill the Hunts, they were never hard enough to need more than 8 people. That is expecting a free ride because they didn't work on getting the Hunt in the first place, they were not hunting. They antagonise themselves by shouting with mockery and insults. The ones that accept they didn't get it, and go back to whatever they were doing before, good on them for understanding, but those who have to try and put shame on the group killing the Hunt, I will not back down my stance on, and those who are trying to encourage it are just as bad.

I've tried the waiting game, and no matter how long I waited, I was still a villain to those people who wanted to join in from other zones. As I said before, as the finders of the Hunt/the pullers, you can't win, you're a bad person no matter what you do according to those who can't even be bothered to join in the actual hunting session.

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Are you a total rookie? It's very normal for people in scouting parties to split up and take different zones because a full party in a single zone is generally a waste. To claim that if they weren't in the zone, they weren't hunting is utterly laughable and reflects a total lack of even the most basic hunt knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Are you a total rookie? It's very normal for people in scouting parties to split up and take different zones because a full party in a single zone is generally a waste. To claim that if they weren't in the zone, they weren't hunting is utterly laughable and reflects a total lack of even the most basic hunt knowledge.

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Next you're gonna say people who're actively hunting won't have any idea what and when things will spawn or are spawnable. You may of missed my earlier posts speaking of spreading out to find hunts also, and that it's people who expect you to wait even longer than gathering up your own party that is the problem I'm speaking of.

Edit: As for other people who're hunting in other zones, sucks for them at the time of it. If they still can't get there in time, then I'd expect the same thing if they found one before we got there, tough luck on my group, we don't care though, there are more out there. As hunters, you learn when things died, and when things will be open to spawn again to make sure you're in the certain areas at the right time, hell, fairly sure there are timer websites for it too.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

I've tried the waiting game, and no matter how long I waited, I was still a villain to those people who wanted to join in from other zones. As I said before, as the finders of the Hunt/the pullers, you can't win, you're a bad person no matter what you do according to those who can't even be bothered to join in the actual hunting session.

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That goes in line with something I've seen a few times. If you announce a hunt, its like you're flagged as an official raid leader or something. Combine that with a large amount of people in an area. Eventually someones going to get bored and attack. It may not be you or even someone in your group. Once someone attacks it, its always going to start off a chain reaction of everyone else there attacking it until it melts. You might not be responsible. Heck, you might not even had the time to get a single spell or attack off before its dead and get nothing to show for it. But since you announced the hunt target, all hundred or so odd eyes are going to be looking at you to blame.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

If they weren't in the zone, they weren't hunting. <snip>

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Actually, this isn't entirely accurate. Sometimes there are multiple S ranks possible of being spawned, and so teams will split up to try and pop each, putting them in different zones. Other times, like with A ranks, groups will be split among zones looking for hunts and calling them as they find them so their party can meet up for the kill. Now, the general idea about entitled armchair hunters and active scouts and spawners, this idea definitely holds weight. Armchairs will always supply actives with excessive salt inventories, regardless of when they pull, and they need to get over it.

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Originally Posted by Bloody

Actually, this isn't entirely accurate. Sometimes there are multiple S ranks possible of being spawned, and so teams will split up to try and pop each, putting them in different zones. Other times, like with A ranks, groups will be split among zones looking for hunts and calling them as they find them so their party can meet up for the kill. Now, the general idea about entitled armchair hunters and active scouts and spawners, this idea definitely holds weight. Armchairs will always supply actives with excessive salt inventories, regardless of when they pull, and they need to get over it.

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I guess my wording was abit off, but I did address for those hunters splitting out in other zones in previous posts. I was trying to specifically mean those who just weren't hunting anyway trying to flood in on a kill and then cry over it, which is more often the case.

Another thing I can't understand though, is why everyone wants such a massive group there. The bigger the group, the less you can hit it, and the rewards you get yourself will end up being minimal if you get anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Which one do you consider discourteous though? Demanding that people are waiting 10 minutes for you to get your ass over there because you wanted to finish something else first and getting upset when they dont?
Or people pulling and killing a huntmob they've found or even put the effort in to spawn without waiting for everyone and their mother to get there?

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Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Well said lol

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

fairly sure there are timer websites for it too.

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Why do I get the feeling you're out there sniping stuff?

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Why do I get the feeling you're out there sniping stuff?

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Why do I get the feeling you're the type who assumes everyone who pulls when they have the ability to kill are grievers instead of just trying not to waste time?

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Why do I get the feeling you're the type who assumes everyone who pulls when they have the ability to kill are grievers instead of just trying not to waste time?

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I don't know. Why? My remark was clearly based on your lack of certainty about the existence of tracking sites, as well as the fact that you obviously participate in hunts. Yours seems to be little more than a pitiful attempt at a retaliatory jab.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I don't know. Why? My remark was clearly based on your lack of certainty about the existence of tracking sites, as well as the fact that you obviously participate in hunts. Yours seems to be little more than a pitiful attempt at a retaliatory jab.

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Judging from that response, either I misread your own jab at me or it wasn't explained well. How does my lack of use of those kind of sites and the fact I do hunts make me a 'sniper'?

Edit: if by sniper you mean I don't shout it out and tell others. I do not anymore, as I have previously explained throughout the thread.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Judging from that response, either I misread your own jab at me or it wasn't explained well. How does my lack of use of those kind of sites and the fact I do hunts make me a 'sniper'?

Edit: if by sniper you mean I don't shout it out and tell others. I do not anymore, as I have previously explained throughout the thread.

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Yeah, so you not only don't inform anyone, but then don't even have the decency to take a second to mark what you kill on Ariyala's so other hunters don't waste their time looking for stuff that's not up. Bad hunt etiquette from start to finish, including stuff that's going to inconvenience or otherwise do a service to other hunters, not just the "leeches" you're so upset about.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Yeah, so you not only don't inform anyone, but then don't even have the decency to take a second to mark what you kill on Ariyala's so other hunters don't waste their time looking for stuff that's not up. Bad hunt etiquette from start to finish, including stuff that's going to inconvenience or otherwise do a service to other hunters, not just the "leeches" you're so upset about.

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When I stop getting ridiculed for trying to help people while doing it, will be the day I start helping again. Just because I'm not using the site myself, doesn't mean a member of my group hasn't been, which I will ask by the way. I'll look into the site myself, but I still will not announce in shout until enough people realise that there is no such thing as early pulling.