Dps As Healer

Sometimes I wonder. People that not DPS at all as a healer, What do you do in dungeons? Do you do anything useful?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

That alone offsets the healing potency differences.

---

No...no it didn't.

All of AST's healing spells were less direct healing potency than a WHM along with all of their attached Regens in Diurnal.

Nocturnal paired with a WHM wasn't as bad because Nocturnal Stance had 5% healing potency up buff attached to it and you still got the party MND buff. WHM + AST pair suffered where DPS was concerned because no Fairy meant no auto-bot healing while healers DPS'd a bit longer, but WHM regens are quite powerful and along with Asylum and if AST had some luck with cards it wasn't too big of a loss.

AST + SCH though? Terrible. Diurnal not only had weaker direct heals and weaker regens, but this pair also never got the party MND buff. Lacking the MND buff too dropped AST's already worse healing potency even farther and also reduced healer DPS contribution.

AST was supposed to be a flexible healer that could pair with either WHM OR SCH....but they didn't balance it properly.

Anyone who collected the 'numbers' and compared them could see AST healing potency was a lot lower than WHM and SCH no matter how skilled you were.

AST was failing at it's main role basically. Yes, they could clear content back then, but it was unnecessarily harder than it needed to be (for the AST and for the co-healer) since it wasn't as strong with its main healing role as a WHM and SCH were.

In general none of the healers should have quite a bit less healing power than the others because healing is their main role. Obviously there are some differences between the healers still, but the main point was that the gap of healing potency between AST and WHM/SCH was just a bit too far. The healers can vary in healing power slightly from each other but they have to stay relatively close because healing is the main role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

That is because people do not know how to play.

---

Also large amount people don't care cause they didn't sign up for healer class to dps. Which is mainly the devs fault cause healers can dps as backup but they made healing too easy so there really nothing else to do but dps which were also made quite powerful. So in my view the class like whm is broken cause as said before lot of people sign up with healer class like whm to heal and if they wanted to be a dps mage they most likely would of became a blm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

Hey, it's my video and here's the original post about it:



I'm absolutely flabbergasted that some people still defent this kind of healer play as good healer play and valid play style. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...es/biggrin.png I didn't even have to cast a single Cure during the pulls...

---

LAMO the fact you found my post of yours that was so long ago is amazing.

Part of the issue is that most healers aren't even healing efficiently to begin with, that's why there's so much more time where they're sitting there with a finger up their nose. The amount of times I've seen a WHM/AST pop Medica 2/A. Helios, IMMEDIATELY followed by a Medica/Helios, is outstanding.

PSA: let regens do their job, else it's just wasted mp and excessive threat.

The encounters in this game are ridiculously scripted, the only fights that need semi constant healer attention are few and far between. If people learned, not just to heal, but to heal EFFICIENTLY, then maybe they'd realise they can do so much more. You know, instead of spending 3-4 GCDs group healing and letting 1 spell do the job instead.

We also need to do away with this myth that there's such a thing as "main healer" and "off healer". Don't give me this "but I'm the main healer and my off healer does damage, that's why I don't DPS", BOTH healers should be healing, BOTH healers need to be doing damage in downtime. 2 healers doing 600 dps is more than 1 healer doing 800. If your "off healer" spends the entire fight in cleric, you should have taken an extra DPS instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Maybe Healing as a whole should be made more intensive for Stormblood? That way healers would actually have to actively Heal instead of either being asked to DPS or being a dead weight 50% of the time by lazing around.

---

I'll say what I said earlier in the thread. Even if they do make healing more intensive in Stormblood, unless they add a mandatory unavoidable minimum ilevel synch to literally every dungeon, sooner or later we will overgear it and then this entire conversation will just start all over again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Sometimes I wonder. People that not DPS at all as a healer, What do you do in dungeons? Do you do anything useful?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lexia

Also large amount people don't care cause they didn't sign up for healer class to dps. Which is mainly the devs fault cause healers can dps as backup but they made healing too easy so there really nothing else to do but dps which were also made quite powerful. So in my viewthe class like whm is broken cause as said before lot of people sign up with healer class like whm to heal and if they wanted to be a dps mage they most likely would of became a blm.

---

I was referencing to DPS that lets a healer out dps them, do not know how to play, and it is quite common to run into the duty finer.

Also keep in mind some people get nothing but bad players in their DFs, so when they come across say a war that actually knows what they are doing, it is shocking and many may not know how to adjust. From what I seen, humans tend to flock to habit and if they developed a habit just to heal because of bad parties, then what happens when they are in a good one?

This is why you see me, well some anyway, posting about my friend being stressed over healing. She finds skill levels all over the place using the DF. This one time before a maint for example, this tank overpulled in comparison to their skill, would not migrate damage, leaving her unable to dps at all because she could do nothing but chain heal. The next party she could be with a war that needs no healing at all and here comes the holy spam.

The point is this, she likes to DPS at points to speed up runs and wants runs to be as efficient as they can be. If something is acting as a barrier to this she speaks up and that is how she runs into toxicity a lot. Even if it is something simple like "Can you do more aoe damage please I am healing too much" (Because of longer kills stuff stays up too long after stun lock and uses too much mp on healing she can't dps on future pulls) Due to people for the most part thinking of themselves, she was mocked and linked a 275 relic by the tank basically telling her to shut up. So she explained a MCH needs to AoE to get things done and was mocked further referencing it how it only has 120 potency and never should be used. When she said her main was MCH they told her she should not play WHM then. What these people do not understand and would be hard to explain is that MCH is more her "current main" but WHM is basically natural to her. It is so natural to her to be a healer and an observer as she calls it, she can spot weak DPS without a meter. "it is more like a feel of how battles flow and should flow" If weak DPS causes her to heal stress she says something. (usually it is a combination of bad tanking and dps, see next)

It wasn't till recently she seen "god tier" performance out of everyone and in parties like that, can go though full large pulls without casting a single heal. swiftcast holy at the end of the megapull > aero III > holy > holy > stuff dead, no healing needed. She was even get away with this in a library farming having a weak DPS (210-230 ish gear depending on slot with 210 wep) Because the second DPS and war tank was so godly, she was able DPS/heal while also outdpsing the second DPS, just because the god like tank knew how to migrate and deal damage, who out damaged them both individually, and quite significantly) So for total DPS, even with tossing out heals and no deaths it went: first dps > significant> tank > significant> healer friend> small gap > the second dps.

With this latest experience, she concluded most people on the forum simply run into people that know what to do and because of that, get confused why people have to just heal only in normal DFs. Even she had to do that at times because the tank and dps being so bad, she ends up needing to have a spam heal rotation and causes her stress because at times its like "please let this finish in time so we do not wipe" FOR EVERY CAST! and having the LB meter spam the healing chirp sounds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

.

In general none of the healers should have quite a bit less healing power than the others because healing is their main role. Obviously there are some differences between the healers still, but the main point was that the gap of healing potency between AST and WHM/SCH was just a bit too far. The healers can vary in healing power slightly from each other but they have to stay relatively close because healing is the main role.

---

Yet this is what's causing the biggest imbalance with healers ATM. The fact that AST can heal and mitigate as strong as a SCH and WHM while still offering massive buffs to the raid.

You can't just nonchalantly make all heaing between the healers equal before considering what else they bring. Why would you bring a WHM that can only heal when you can bring an AST that heals as reliably as a WHM while offering buffs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

This statement confuses me, because ASTs still DPS just as much as their other healer counterparts even taking card fussing into consideration. "Just focus on using cards" isn't a community-accepted excuse for not DPSing any more than "SCHs just focus on using your fairy abilities" is.

Can you clarify what you mean by saying that?

---

Im not sure how it could confuse you.
I simply would like more skills and abilities on Healers that buff the party or debuff enemies instead of just "do damage yourself".
Channeled abilities that provide massive Attack Speed buffs, short duration buffs that increase the various way your party can deal or take damage. Skills like that on Healers would be nice.
Move away from "Healers" as a Role and push a Support Role instead. Healing damage while boosting the performance of the party.

As for the AST cards, they're on a 30 second cooldown. Of course theres no real way to "focus on cards". Im not sure how you took me to mean that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

Im not sure how it could confuse you.
I simply would like more skills and abilities on Healers that buff the party or debuff enemies instead of just "do damage yourself".
Channeled abilities that provide massive Attack Speed buffs, short duration buffs that increase the various way your party can deal or take damage. Skills like that on Healers would be nice.
Move away from "Healers" as a Role and push a Support Role instead. Healing damage while boosting the performance of the party.

As for the AST cards, they're on a 30 second cooldown. Of course theres no real way to "focus on cards". Im not sure how you took me to mean that.

---

I like the idea but I have issues with it and that is purely community related.

If DPS are not skilled, then buffing them will not make their damage respectable, so my DPS helps pick up the slack. If you propose healers should be more like ffxi brds, then how you DPS needs to be made a lot easier. it is too complex for the average person to deal respectable damage, right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

You can't just nonchalantly make all heaing between the healers equal before considering what else they bring. Why would you bring a WHM that can only heal when you can bring an AST that heals as reliably as a WHM while offering buffs?

---

Yes...you can and should. If a healer cannot do their main role as well as the others then there is a problem. Healing potency was the reason AST's were not accepted into groups at release. WHM's have never been not accepted into groups due to healing potency since their healing potency is fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

The healers can vary in healing power slightly from each other but they have to stay relatively close because healing is the main role.

---

If you look at my post, and read it, you'll notice I never compared the utility of the healers. I only compared the healing potency and highlighted problems that AST had compared to WHM/SCH at release.

I was talking about healing potency NOT utility so you don't need to jump to defend WHM against me. Wasn't even what I was talking about and you have it quite wrong when it comes to healing potency. Healer jobs are healers they need to all be efficient at healing and close in healing power because it is their main role. Their extra utility is another topic and not what I was talking about at all.

Was there any actual math that translated how the lower potency of AST's heals affected output, or was it all just feelycraft? Anyone have any links with some hard data? Been meaning to Google this myself, since I never found the 5% original lower healing potencies a big deal during 3.0, but never bothered to compare statistically to my WHM at the time (dumb mistake).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

Im not sure how it could confuse you.
I simply would like more skills and abilities on Healers that buff the party or debuff enemies instead of just "do damage yourself".
Channeled abilities that provide massive Attack Speed buffs, short duration buffs that increase the various way your party can deal or take damage. Skills like that on Healers would be nice.
Move away from "Healers" as a Role and push a Support Role instead. Healing damage while boosting the performance of the party.

As for the AST cards, they're on a 30 second cooldown. Of course theres no real way to "focus on cards". Im not sure how you took me to mean that.

---

Sorry, in your original comment you didn't make your point very clear, you made it sound like AST's cards currently were a good example of support without DPSing and with their cooldowns and the game's low healing requirements it's just not the case right now. A design shift like that is certainly possible, yes, but it can't be done without seriously nerfing healer DPS and buffing their support options (undesirable for solo play), or raising healing requirements WHILE giving support options that make up the numbers for healers no longer having spare globals to DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Healing potency was the reason AST's were not accepted into groups at release.

---

You're only half correct. ASTs weren't accepted into raiding because their healing was weaker, and their buffs were not worth the riskier healing at the time.
This is a very important point to understand. ASTs identity was supposed to be lower healing but strong support. But since their support was so weak that it didn't make a difference whether you used it or not, there was no real benefit to bringing one. Now there is. Cards are very strong now and will more than warrant lower healing potency.

When deciding between AST vs WHM, it should be a choice of wanting high support vs safer healing. AST healing as high as a WHM and offering buffs is a mistake I hope they correct in 4.0.
Obviously they still need to be able to heal content, but it should be a lot harder on AST for the added benefits it brings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

I was talking about and you have it quite wrong when it comes to healing potency. Healer jobs are healers they need to all be efficient at healing and close in healing power because it is their main role. Their extra utility is another topic and not what I was talking about at all.

---

-Double post because of SE post limit, sorry.-

This is normally the case, but with AST, you really do need to consider their utility as well, as it directly influences why they had lower healing potency in the first place.

Looking at healing potential in a tunnel is going to lead to some horrible balance issues. If every healer is going to heal for around the same amount, then every healer needs a form of unique support utility .
You can't have AST heal as much as much as WHM and SCH while offering their own utility withhout breaking something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Now there is. Cards are very strong now and will more than warrant lower healing potency.

---

No. Healing potency must be around the same for all healers otherwise certain compositions become unnecessarily harder to heal on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

but it should be a lot harder on AST for the added benefits it brings.

---

No it shouldn't. All healers need to be able to heal properly because it is their main role. All supportbuffs/DPS/utility are extras and those should be balanced between healers as well, but they are separate from just being able to heal properly with proper tuned healing potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

If every healer is going to heal for around the same amount, then every healer needs a form of unique support utility

---

Which is fine? You don't need to nerf AST's healing potency and make it harder for ASTs to do their main role for the sole reason they are an AST. You can just buff WHM's utility.

You just don't want all healers equal it seems? You want one to be worse at doing their main role just because they have more utility? Instead of just buffing WHM??

No. That makes absolutely zero sense. SCH, WHM, and AST are all healers. Healing is their main priority you can't have one significantly weaker than the others at healing.

Utility is secondary and they could just add some more to WHM.

All this is making me want to abandon my healer for a different class. Or wait until Stormblood comes out and take up RDM or SAM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This has been an ongoing debate on the healer forum. Someone made a video where she did Xelphatol with FC members and literally spent 80% of the dungeon jumping around the map and spamming emotes. Her contributions were that low. Does this sound like a good player?

---

I'm surprised, but also not so surprised that this subject made it here. Anywho, I believe that video was made to showcase how little healing is needed in that dungeon. I don't believe this person was doing it to deliberately be a jerk. But in either case, the point was established that there are instances where a healer literally has nothing to do but contribute to the damage pool. While that video proved a strong case of healer downtime, there is something else to take into consideration: The group still got the clear, and did so under 20 minutes.

To counter, I posted a video of my own to show how unpredictable damage can be, and casting two holys instead of just one literally made the difference between a wipe and successful trash clear. Granted, the tank did not use any cooldowns, or anything really to save his own ass, but the point was we would not have wiped if I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. Everyone was doing the elementary basics of their role. The tank held agro, the DPS were pushing it, but the healer (me) was too focused on DPS and the result was a wipe.

Those pushing their arguments, no matter what side you're on, seem to see healing as a one-given scenario when it is nowhere near that black and white. There are situations where the tank is literally taking no damage, and the healer is left with nothing to do. There are situations where the tank is taking so much damage that not one gcd can be spared to contribute to DPS. There are also situations where incoming damage is so erratic and unpredictable that a GCD used towards damage is a risk.

In short, there are as many valid reasons for a healer to contribute to DPS as there are for them to stay out of Cleric. A truly good healer assesses the situation they are given and responds accordingly. And that is it. Sometimes you get good healers, and sometimes you don't. Same with tanks and DPS. We are actually fortunate that a healer can be subpar and still get clears. Would you or anyone else prefer the opposite?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amariel34

All this is making me want to abandon my healer for a different class. Or wait until Stormblood comes out and take up RDM or SAM.

---

Well if you don't want to play the healer jobs like they are in this game (as in they're supposed to do both healing and DPSing), then yes, maybe better to play a job you actually enjoy playing. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

You just don't want all healers equal it seems? You want one to be worse at doing their main role just because they have more utility? Instead of just buffing WHM??

Utility is secondary and they could just add some more to WHM.

---

I want balance amongst healers very VERY badly, and as a WHM main, I do NOT think WHM needs utility similar to AST.

They do need something unique for themselves, but it shouldn't be dmg utility.
All healers don't need to be equal either. They simply need to be able to heal all content in the game. What they do need to be equal in is their importance to the raid. If a AST heals less than a WHM, but makes up for the lower healing with buffs, that's balanced imo. If a WHM offers much more healing but lacks in utility that's balanced.

What we have now, both healers healing for around the same amount but one offering added utility is completely unbalanced and needs to be looked into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

All healers don't need to be equal either. They simply need to be able to heal all content in the game.

---

Um....do you realize what you just said?

If they simply need to be able to heal all the content in the game then all healers right now are 100% fine.

WHM, AST, and SCH can all heal and complete A12S which is the hardest piece of content atm. So you just invalidated any argument you had about nerfing AST or buffing WHM.

Well I guess that settles that.

These threads make me laugh. Everyone has there opinions and no one will ever win this argument. Just play the game and have fun. At the end of the day you pay for your own sub, do whatever makes you happy.

http://i.imgur.com/RgrsNm5.jpghttp://

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

http://i.imgur.com/RgrsNm5.jpghttp://

---

We need fewer healers and more tanks and DPS. My healer queues are not instant, forcing me to tank. Nobody can understand my struggle as I wait two, maybe even three, minutes to get into extreme roulette if I stubbornly stay a healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Um....do you realize what you just said?

If they simply need to be able to heal all the content in the game then all healers right now are 100% fine.

WHM, AST, and SCH can all heal and complete A12S which is the hardest piece of content atm. So you just invalidated any argument you had about nerfing AST or buffing WHM.

Well I guess that settles that.

---

I meant that in the context of you saying all healers need to be on equal footing with healing power.
They don't need to all be equal in healing power, they just need enough healing to get through content. Which means if AST healing potency is nerfed back to 3.0 values, even though it's harder, it's still possible. This would solve at least some of the balance issues going on right now. People would need to decide if they want stronger healing or strong buffs.

Please don't twist my words like that. I am in no way fine with the current healer balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Um....do you realize what you just said?

If they simply need to be able to heal all the content in the game then all healers right now are 100% fine.

WHM, AST, and SCH can all heal and complete A12S which is the hardest piece of content atm. So you just invalidated any argument you had about nerfing AST or buffing WHM.

Well I guess that settles that.

---

I think you're taking a bit too simplistic of an approach, tbh. The point isn't that AST can heal all the raids in the game while having better utility, it's that they can heal all the raids in the game with the same ease as a WHM but with vastly better utility. It basically boils down to two approaches - homogenize the healers further so that one isn't really bringing anything different from the other, or acknowledge that skill gaps are a thing and make the healers with higher payoffs require better players to play them.

For what it's worth, I tried Googling my question I asked you earlier, and while I couldn't find any numerical data, it was interesting to see that the general thought on Reddit shortly after AST was released was that while Noct Sect didn't do as well at "off healing" as SCH that Di Sect was fine and nobody actually missed the 5% less healing potencies all that much. Even a criticism on this forum from one of the first ASTs to clear AS3 was more about the cards being too random and moves like Lightspeed/Disable having stupid criterion that limited their use, not about 5% less healing potency.

Searching further, the decision to boost AST healing potencies and re-tool a lot of their unique moves to more WHM/SCH-esque clones rather than adjusting card effects or card interactivity was also highly criticized both on Reddit and our very own healer subforum. I'd dare to posit that quite a few healers would be fine with AST being hit with a healing nerf bat to compensate for their various card QoL buffs received over the past year, rather than WHM getting their own version of a Balance card.

I still wish I had some hard data, though. People threw potencies around but no one seems to have run any numerical tests to see how exactly the actual values stacked against one another. Doing napkin math, at i261 it seems like my Benefic IIs would go from 8300 to about 7900, but that's a linear comparison and I know healing formulas aren't calculated bare-bones like that. Still, 400 HP is like 1.5% of a tank's HP bar, and AST has lower MP costs to boot. It just strikes me that a lot of fuss was made over their initial heal potencies for absolutely no reason.

Honestly Healers in this game are somewhat similar as the Final fantasy tactics (first one) counterparts in that both have a down time and a means to deal damage (Tactics WM has sub skills, holy, staves that used magic power to determine physical damage)

I think its just this game is missing an element of "Oh damn" that tactics has in the chaotic nature of fights which can result in multiple people going from full health to near dead real quick thus if you chose to smack an enemy instead of readying a heal then someone is dying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm surprised, but also not so surprised that this subject made it here. Anywho, I believe that video was made to showcase how little healing is needed in that dungeon. I don't believe this person was doing it to deliberately be a jerk. But in either case, the point was established that there are instances where a healer literally has nothing to do but contribute to the damage pool. While that video proved a strong case of healer downtime, there is something else to take into consideration: The group still got the clear, and did so under 20 minutes.

---

Oh, no. I didn't intend to insinuate otherwise. Her jumping around was meant to showcase how little healing was required.

Quote:

---

To counter, I posted a video of my own to show how unpredictable damage can be, and casting two holys instead of just one literally made the difference between a wipe and successful trash clear. Granted, the tank did not use any cooldowns, or anything really to save his own ass, but the point was we would not have wiped if I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. Everyone was doing the elementary basics of their role. The tank held agro, the DPS were pushing it, but the healer (me) was too focused on DPS and the result was a wipe.

Those pushing their arguments, no matter what side you're on, seem to see healing as a one-given scenario when it is nowhere near that black and white. There are situations where the tank is literally taking no damage, and the healer is left with nothing to do. There are situations where the tank is taking so much damage that not one gcd can be spared to contribute to DPS. There are also situations where incoming damage is so erratic and unpredictable that a GCD used towards damage is a risk.

In short, there are as many valid reasons for a healer to contribute to DPS as there are for them to stay out of Cleric. A truly good healer assesses the situation they are given and responds accordingly. And that is it. Sometimes you get good healers, and sometimes you don't. Same with tanks and DPS. We are actually fortunate that a healer can be subpar and still get clears. Would you or anyone else prefer the opposite?

---

Actually, I wished your video. The tank didn't rotate cooldowns and you didn't have Regen on them. That being said, mistakes happen and I would happily accept a wipe from a healing attempting to balance Cleric than one standing around. No one has suggested healing is a dichotomy. You will always have to adjust based on groups you're running with. The criticism derives from healers who won't DPS on principle. The "I'm a healer, not a DPS. You should just do more damage," nonsense. The idea is to always be casting. If the tank does happen to take higher damage wherein they need some babying, then by all means, focus on healing. I have those groups were I make a mental note I won't be doing much (or any) DPS this run. On the flipside, if they aren't, then you should be throwing out DoTs and spamming aoes.

Ultimately, we more or less agree. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

it's that they can heal all the raids in the game with the same ease as a WHM but with vastly better utility.

---

Yes, to which I already told the person I was replying to that they could buff WHM's utility instead of weakening AST's primary function: Healing (you know, since they are a healer role like the other two)

But said person claims they want healers to be "balanced" yet suggests to weaken AST's healing potency which would make it not balanced with the other two healers when it comes to healing power.

There is a reason SE changed AST's healing potency to what it is now. I mean if you were correct and "a lot of fuss was made over their heal potencies for no reason" then why did SE change it? The community has fussed about random things off and on and SE doesn't always listen. So it's not like its a given just because people fussed. They must have seen some good reasons to do it.

Lower MP cost back then didn't really change anything because you have to cast an extra spell to be on even footing with WHM or even SCH who micromanages their fairy. So you didn't actually save any MP. The bit faster spell casting didn't make up for the lower potency either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I still wish I had some hard data, though. People threw potencies around but no one seems to have run any numerical tests to see how exactly the actual values stacked against one another.

---

I had data at the time. I did tests with WHM (which was my main before HW) and AST (which was going to be my new main). The healing output was enough lower than WHM that the increased risk and difficulty of healing as an AST in a progression raid environment wasn't feasible for most players

The tests I did backed up this reasoning. So I switched to WHM and I'll just say the difference in efficiency was quite noticeable. Most groups would not accept ASTs in their raid groups or in PF they would lock the slot to WHM and SCH also.

I've never seen WHM locked out of any current content, like AST was at release, even after AST was buffed. The only groups who won't take a WHM likely is a speed run group which only 1% of the top tier player base actually participates in.

If every player was extremely skilled at the game then AST being weaker with heals would have been fine, but seeing as player's skill levels vary that just isn't the case so no healer should ever be naturally weaker at their primary function which is healing the party.

So if they wanna nerf AST cards because they overstepped how strong they should be? That's fine, I wouldn't have issue with it, but you can't make a healer weaker at healing than the other two healers. Not only is it unfair, but it is detrimental for less skilled players who want to play the job because they enjoy it. Or if they wanna buff WHM utility cool, np, do it, but every healer should be on quite close footing with healing power so that a wide variety of players can play the job's primary healing role decently enough even with less skill.

We already have individual player skill and gear which can make fights harder or easier depending on the player and content, we don't need a third variable where one of the healers is also naturally weaker compounded on not every player being super skilled and considering raid content is quite hard to heal for most players when it first gets released due to lack of gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

if AST healing potency is nerfed back to 3.0 values, even though it's harder, it's still possible.

---

Are you sure? This is sort of pointless to say since there is no way to prove that an AST with 3.0 values could successfully contribute properly and clear A11S and A12S for example; since 3.0 values on AST don't exist anymore to try it. Not saying its not possible, just saying we have no way to prove it either way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

This would solve at least some of the balance issues going on right now. People would need to decide if they want stronger healing or strong buffs.

---

I already said they could buff WHMs utility but if this whole vendetta to nerf AST healing potency is all centered around the cards then like I said above idc if they nerf those. It makes logical sense. Unlike the illogical idea of lowering a healer's healing power below the other two healer jobs when they are actually currently balanced...therefore making them unbalanced which is against what you claim you want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Please don't twist my words like that. I am in no way fine with the current healer balance.

---

You want to make healers balanced, yet you want to nerf AST's primary function. That's not balanced. That imbalances the healing power between the three healers. AST will be lower and WHM and SCH will be higher. So again that isn't balanced.

The utility atm isn't balanced so they need to fix that. Healing potency is fine since its balanced; no changes needed.

I didn't really twist your words.

You said "All healers don't need to be equal", but you want all healer utility to be equal, yet you don't want healing potency to be equal...healing is part of healers though.

Personally I don't believe you can piece meal healers into segments where one part of them should be balanced but the other part isn't or doesn't have to be. Either healers are balanced or they're not.

Right now healer potency is balanced but healer utility isn't so overall the healers aren't balanced right now, but balancing the utility then unbalancing the healing potency just swaps the imbalances around and no progress was made at all since they are still overall imbalanced again.

So again all they need to do is fix the utility by either buffing WHM utility or nerfing some of AST utility. Healing potencies are balanced atm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

A design shift like that is certainly possible, yes, but it can't be done without seriously nerfing healer DPS and buffing their support options (undesirable for solo play), or raising healing requirements WHILE giving support options that make up the numbers for healers no longer having spare globals to DPS.

---

Not entirely so. Adding in party buff skills and then putting the debuff aspect on the damage dealing skills would go a long way without needing to touch potencies.
Alternately, they could have the debuff aspect as a standard effect on damage skills with a clause that Cleric Stance boosts the damage while removing those debuff effects.
It actually would add more play options to Healers, since you could then choose to utilize the support skills more, or focus your spare time on dealing raw damage. The overall result would be the same, the Healer would be adding 1000 dps to the total.
Whether it be through boosting the party or hitting hard itself wouldn't matter as the end result is the same; More party dps.

AST was a failure from the start, you can't make a WHM/SCH hybrid and expect it to be balanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

http://i.imgur.com/RgrsNm5.jpghttp://

---

I'd stop healing if they were stripped of the ability to do considerable DPS. I get bored to tears being a healbot and love this game for not encouraging that playstyle, don't care what Yoshida's opinion on the matter is. Though it seems his opinion changes often anyway.

I agree with the ones who balance DPS with the healing as healer.

I believe the novice exercises bring up that supplementing DPS as healer can be beneficial if the tank is healthy enough and the fight mechanics cam allow it.

Of course the tank must be reasonably geared and use defensive abilities sufficiently in order for the healers to supplement the dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I'd stop healing if they were stripped of the ability to do considerable DPS.

---

http://i.imgur.com/hOuVKRu.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

http://i.imgur.com/hOuVKRu.png

---

I'd be happy to group with you sometime for a dungeon if you think it's not possible to do substantial DPS and keep DDs alive if they're not bad at the same time :). If I'm doing more DPS than the DDs as the healer and they're not dying, something is wrong on their end. But let's ignore the real issues shall we?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

http://i.imgur.com/hOuVKRu.png

---

That has literally nothing to do with the post you quoted.

They want damage dealing HEALERS, your image suggests no healing at all let dps die.


What?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

That has literally nothing to do with the post you quoted.

They want damage dealing HEALERS, your image suggests no healing at all let dps die.


What?

---

He's just fishing for likes. Using animal pictures with sensationalist text...don't take it too seriously. If he's really this delusional at level 60 and believes what he posted, I offered to prove him wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

He's just fishing for likes. Using animal pictures with sensationalist text...don't take it too seriously. If he's really this delusional at level 60 and believes what he posted, I offered to prove him wrong.

---

Definitely noted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

That has literally nothing to do with the post you quoted.

They want damage dealing HEALERS, your image suggests no healing at all let dps die.


What?

---

Terrible Tiger memes are always a joke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

I had data at the time. I did tests with WHM (which was my main before HW) and AST (which was going to be my new main). The healing output was enough lower than WHM that the increased risk and difficulty of healing as an AST in a progression raid environment wasn't feasible for most players.

The tests I did backed up this reasoning. So I switched to WHM and I'll just say the difference in efficiency was quite noticeable. Most groups would not accept ASTs in their raid groups or in PF they would lock the slot to WHM and SCH also.

---

Do you have links to the tests you did? I'd be curious to see numerical results, which were sadly lacking on Google search.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nixxe

Terrible Tiger memes are always a joke.

---

If he's joking then I applaud him, he fooled me.

I'm only fluent in dead memes :(