Savage Clear rate being lower the Devs expected, good or a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by melisande

Thank you for showing us the exact type of player who is ruining the endgame community. Have fun with your parsers and stuff and your 'gid gud' attitude (no idea where that even came from.. WoW? GW2? idk.)

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Are you seriously implying that this game should not have content that tests the limits of your ability to perform your job and team coordination?

What are you talking? Is my attitude bad? I could sound elitist but i talk with knowledge.
am I a bad guy for using a parser and stuff?

I hope if you are stuck in a game, won't use a guide or a cheat. You will become bad guy with "stuffs"

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Are you seriously implying that this game should not have content that tests the limits of your ability to perform your job and team coordination?

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uh... lol... please cite where i said that?

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Originally Posted by rappa

What are you talking? Is my attitude bad? I could sound elitist but i talk with knowledge.
am I a bad guy for using a parser and stuff?

I hope if you are stuck in a game, won't use a guide or a cheat. You will become bad guy with "stuffs"

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Parsers are against the TOS and are a crutch because ACT has triggers (which im sure you use as well) so that you can be notified when a boss is using abilities (regen before quarantine, legs stunning). Which isn't even what this conversation is about, but every post you make you love to bring up parse numbers and this and that like it matters, and it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by melisande

uh... lol... please cite where i said that?

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Imply means not directly saying what you actually mean. You can call people out for being elitist if you like, but the way you present your arguments makes it the other extreme.

Oh boy. Here come all the A4S clear people to tell everyone to git good while they couldn't even produce a legit A4S clear video.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Imply means not directly saying what you actually mean. You can call people out for being elitist if you like, but the way you present your arguments makes it the other extreme.

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Excuse me, but I have been playing since 1.0, without the use of third party tools. I guess that makes me bad LOL. Also - please quote where i 'called someone out for being an elitist' - i was more calling him out for posting parser information followed with 'git gud'. I dont understand where this attitude came from - it was not around in the 1.0 days. Having cleared all content in 1.0 (and 2.0) - for you to say i am implying "... that this game should not have content that tests the limits of your ability to perform your job and team coordination?" is simply wrong.

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Originally Posted by melisande

Parsers are against the TOS and are a crutch because ACT has triggers (which im sure you use as well) so that you can be notified when a boss is using abilities (regen before quarantine, legs stunning). Which isn't even what this conversation is about, but every post you make you love to bring up parse numbers and this and that like it matters, and it doesn't.

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Parser is a tool and let players control raid management. Could be against the TOS but nobody was banned for use parser. You could watch Elysium server first and the whm is using triggers and a parser.

It's a sorrow as player that developers create a raid with dps and gearchecks but without any messure can't determine how is going.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Oh boy. Here come all the A4S clear people to tell everyone to git good while they couldn't even produce a legit A4S clear video.

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I pray you didn't kill ADS in Turn 2 with "enrage mode".

And i laugh how a guy is salty declaring a strat is not legit, when own developers determined the strat was right.

As i said, we are stubborn, blame others players or we say the killed or cheated a fight because they killed before us.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Parser is a tool and let players control raid management. Could be against the TOS but nobody was banned for use parser. You could watch Elysium server first and the whm is using triggers and a parser.

It's a sorrow as player that developers create a raid with dps and gearchecks but without any messure can't determine how is going.

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And for you to deny that those triggers are a crutch is a fallacy. Enjoy living in your third party gung-ho world, that came from WoW, GW2, or something of the like because FF has discouraged the use of any third party, and the devs left out a parser for a reason.

And NO, I killed ADS long before people were even exploiting the enrage strategy. Thanks for the assumption though. I still feel bad you openly admit to using triggers, talk about a bad player. Ever heard of Focus Target?

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Oh boy. Here come all the A4S clear people to tell everyone to git good while they couldn't even produce a legit A4S clear video.

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sadly, SE recognized the cheese as a legit clear. As far as I know, only one JP team got the originally intended clear (Elysium got close but had to finish the last bomb set with the cheese. They definitively killed all the dolls though, it was just a matter of a few seconds. Dunno if they did it again the original way after that or just followed the cheese, as it is way easier to do it that way).

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Originally Posted by rappa

As i said, we are stubborn, blame others players or we say the killed or cheated a fight because they killed before us.

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You can't deny nearly all of the AS4 clears have cheated the fight. None of you did it the intended way.

You still have legit clears, as the devs acknowledged them, but don't go as far as saying they weren't cheated through.

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Originally Posted by melisande

And for you to deny that those triggers are a crutch is a fallacy. Enjoy living in your third party gung-ho world, that came from WoW, GW2, or something of the like because FF has discouraged the use of any third party, and the devs left out a parser for a reason.

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So people using pens, Voice chats and chronometers are also bad players because reasons ? The ability callers just ease the process.

Just so you know, 3rd party apps are banned as a whole because the devs didn't want to put in an exhaustive list of banned applications, as this list would be ever changing.

By your logic, any sort of voice chat is also a 3rd party app ban-worthy. Get real.

To develop a bit : 3rd party app aren't anything more than tools that the game refuses/can't to provide (parser, multiple focus bars, easy way to communicate while fighting... etc). It's not because some players are stupid enough to misuse/abuse them that the tools are stupid.

Yeah, we were able to clear all of coil sans third party tools. T7 was as simple as watching the buffs and calling em out if someone was taking too long.

Third party tools are a crutch, and worse; keep bad players from learning good habits because the software did things for them.

The exception may be parsers for DDs to see if they aren't pumping out enough damage, but I'm more talking about triggers.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

By your logic, any sort of voice chat is also a 3rd party app ban-worthy. Get real.

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No that is not by my logic, that you assume. communication in a party, whether it be over voice chat, or in party chat, is playing the game as intended. Using a third party tool that reads the games memory however, is not.

Carry on now.

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Originally Posted by melisande

And for you to deny that those triggers are a crutch is a fallacy. Enjoy living in your third party gung-ho world, that came from WoW, GW2, or something of the like because FF has discouraged the use of any third party, and the devs left out a parser for a reason.

And NO, I killed ADS long before people were even exploiting the enrage strategy. Thanks for the assumption though. I still feel bad you openly admit to using triggers, talk about a bad player. Ever heard of Focus Target?

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And know you are doing assumption on my playstyle or what game i played.

Do you know FF doesn't want a third program or addons? Because PS3 and PS4 can't handle.
I use focus target my smart friend. But is a blunder in 2015, 2 years after FFXIV:ARR was released, you are unable to track dots in your focus target because reason. It's hard to place your dots in the list and not 5 randoms?

I think you forget what game are you playing. FFXIV is a mmo, nor a shooter, nor a RTS, it's a mmo, when timers to kill objectives, messures to check dps, damage, heals and others data are necessary.

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Originally Posted by melisande

No that is not by my logic, that you assume. COMMUNICATION in a party, whether it be over voice chat, or in party chat, is not the same as a THIRD PARTY TOOL calling out the moves.

Carry on now.

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Then a Raid Leader calling boss abilities would be consider cheating? He is calling out the moves too.

Sorry i cheated Titan hm in 2.0, my raid leader had a cheat sheet with all titan hm abilities and he called when he would do.

BTW: Other blunder, can't track CDs timer without hover the mouse and look the tooltip. That would be a great QoL.

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Originally Posted by melisande

No that is not by my logic, that you assume. COMMUNICATION in a party, whether it be over voice chat, or in party chat, is not the same as a THIRD PARTY TOOL calling out the moves.

Carry on now.

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ok so just a thing :

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Originally Posted by melisande

FF has discouraged the use of any third party

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here goes. 3rd party tools are just what their name implies : tools that aren't provided by the game. As such, any form of communication not going on through the in-game text-only chat is done by using a third party app.

and is worthy of a ban. It doesn't matter whether it calls abilities, let you float 20 yalms above the arena, parses numbers automatically so that you don't have to do it manually in 300k lines of combat text, or just eases your communication, a 3rd party app is a 3rd party app right ?


Also, just so you know, you won't be punished for the use of a parser, or an ability caller or anything. Heck, people aren't even punished for external macros spamming the auto-facing target command to cheat in PvP.

You'll be punished if you use 3rd party apps to blatantly break the game (such as going through walls to bug bosses) or to flame other players (though this is highly objective. You'll most likely get the hammer even if you just call out someone clearly under-performing, even if you don't flame them).

Any other use of 3rd party tools is fine and fair game.


just to back up my claims :

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Activities that destroy game balance
Activities that destroy game balance
Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players. The use of programs or tools within FINAL FANTASY XIV that allow certain continuous actions to be performed automatically are often referred to as absentee play, which is also prohibited in FINAL FANTASY XIV. Additionally, during the course of an absentee play investigation, players may be requested to respond to or comply with a GMs instruction. Failure to do so is consider a violation and may result in disciplinary action being taken against the account.

The following activities are also prohibited in FINAL FANTASY XIV.
•Modifying, analyzing, integrating and reverse engineering game data
•Utility creation and distribution
•Exploiting SQUARE ENIX programming that does not run as intended to gain profit or damage other players

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source

forgetting the obvious part about botting (absentee play), we can see that ANY 3rd party app is forbidden (so all voice chats, parsers, blah blah, blah. Creation and use of those apps is ban-worthy), as well as reverse engineering (bye bye all theory crafters on damage formulas. Noone has ever the right to know if determination is worth more than critical rate), and (not present here but in the user agreement) and Datamining.

But well, thing is... the only thing they ever punished was botting. And not always. Some bots are still running since day 1.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

ok so just a thing :



here goes. 3rd party tools are just what their name implies : tools that aren't provided by the game. As such, any form of communication not going on through the in-game text-only chat is done by using a third party app.

and is worthy of a ban. It doesn't matter whether it calls abilities, let you float 20 yalms above the arena, parses numbers automatically so that you don't have to do it manually in 300k lines of combat text, or just eases your communication, a 3rd party app is a 3rd party app right ?


Any other use of 3rd party tools is fine and fair game.

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playstation has built-in communication tools you can't argue that voice communication is 3rd party because it is directly supported by the first party developer of the console itself

^ This. Communication with your party is playing the game as intended, and using ACT triggers is not, which is what i stated.

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

playstation has built-in communication tools you can't argue that voice communication is 3rd party because it is directly supported by the first party developer of the console itself

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I think he means for PC players.

It shouldn't be a problem for savage clear rates to be low. I thought the point of making the easy version was so people who can't or don't want to do savage still get to do something, unlike coil where SE spent time and money making areas and fights that only like 15% of the players were clearing. If anything they should make savage worse to clear so the people who want something hard can toil away in there forever.

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

playstation has built-in communication tools you can't argue that voice communication is 3rd party because it is directly supported by the first party developer of the console itself

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just re-quoting it for the argument's purpose :

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Using third party programs or tools in FINAL FANTASY XIV is strictly prohibited since they allow users to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

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This PS4 voice chat provides an unfair advantage over PC players, blah blah blah... See where it's going ?

If anything, you just proved my point : talking about non game-breaking tools as if they were a plague is dumb.

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Originally Posted by melisande

^ This. Communication with your party is playing the game as intended, and using ACT triggers is not, which is what i stated.

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No. The game provides you a text chat, not a voice chat. Using a voice chat is (on paper) the same as using an automatic ability caller when you could do it with pen, paper and a chronometer.

In both cases, you're not using what the game provides but rather an external application. You can't nitpick what is good and what is bad based on what you're personally using.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It shouldn't be a problem for savage clear rates to be low. I thought the point of making the easy version was so people who can't or don't want to do savage still get to do something, unlike coil where SE spent time and money making areas and fights that only like 15% of the players were clearing. If anything they should make savage worse to clear so the people who want something hard can toil away in there forever.

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serious question : If SE wasn't satisfied with content only 15% of players would ever see, why did they shrunk that percentage down to 1% ? Seems the worst possible decision here.

I mean, story mode was fine, but why the heck would they wreck what was fine ?

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

just re-quoting it for the argument's purpose :

No. The game provides you a text chat, not a voice chat. Using a voice chat is (on paper) the same as using an automatic ability caller when you could do it with pen, paper and a chronometer.

In both cases, you're not using what the game provides but rather an external application. You can't nitpick what is good and what is bad based on what you're personally using.

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You can actually, pick what is good or bad simply by reading the TOS, which you should. External Voice Chat applications are not a third party application in violation of the TOS. ACT however, is, because specifically, it reads the games memory.

Lol the leap from going voice chat to a tool that monitors FFXIV's memory and directly relays information going on during the fight. Are you purposely being obtuse?

Coil savage was fine, but why?
Because they did not bound progress to it...
Progress is in fact better gear and now most of the players are stuckt in alexander savage without any other thing to do and no way to progress!
You can not evolve and get stronger by doing any other things than savage and that for months now... its not that there isnt any other content, you just dont progress with your character!

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Originally Posted by melisande

You can actually, simply by reading the TOS, which you should. External Voice Chat applications are not a third party application in violation of the TOS. ACT however, is.

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I actually quoted the ToS. Unless there is a special line I missed specifically allowing external voice chat applications (in which case, by all means, please quote it and link it. I'll be happy to agree that they don't fall under the same category than ACT), my point is valid.

edit :

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Originally Posted by melisande

ACT however, is, because specifically, it reads the games memory.

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you can copy/paste your combat chat log with the exact same effect than ACT except it will take you hours when ACT proceeds it automatically for you. How is it bad exactly ? I could somewhat agree that the precise HP bar provided by ACT's overlay is a bit overkill in reading the game's memory, but the parsing itself is fine.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Lol the leap from going voice chat to a tool that monitors FFXIV's memory and directly relays information going on during the fight. Are you purposely being obtuse?

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Parsers just read numbers. Ability callers just replace the good old paper & chronometer. Voice chats just replace playing in the same room.

I'm making a point. If you're fine with one, you're fine with the others. Because they all ease something you can already do without them. But you don't, because it's more convenient to use them than not.

None of them play the game in your place. They just provide tool to increase your focus on something else (here, doing as many damage as you can), rather than mechanics that are utterly scripted to the point you can predict at the exact second what is happening. You could bot many fights with ease just because the exact same things happen at the exact same second every time. That's just how bad it is.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Coil savage was fine, but why?
Because they did not bound progress to it...

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In fact, SCOB and Savage SCOB were tied to same progress. Once you cleared T6 in normal mode, you were not able to do it in T6 Savage until next week. Wiping in t6 Savage or t7 savage denied you to clear next turns.

One decision was trying savage until last day raid and clear in normal. Once you are full geared and you don't need items from each turn, lose drops were not a big loss.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Parsers just read numbers. Ability callers just replace the good old paper & chronometer. Voice chats just replace playing in the same room.

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While I said I don't mind parsers, just triggers, it's still automating something YOU should be doing. You could make the same leap (since you did with VOIP -> ACT) that you are botting a part of the raid. You've let a automated program calculate your damage, or more what I am against; you made a program do the monitoring of events during battle instead of yourself. This is the major difference between VOIP and ACT. VOIP doesn't know FFXIV exist, and is just a general purpose communication tool. ACT is actively reading FFXIV's memory space and automating portions of the fight you should be doing yourself (paying attention and knowing the strategy like how many seconds divebombs will come back after the first set of three). While VOIP makes comms faster, it doesn't automate communication or make it irrelevant.

This was about the savage clear rate not parsers. Hth did it get off topic...?

To me, Savage is just a joke now. I used to run a static a month or two ago, but I had to pass the torch to someone else because I ultimately felt it was just stupid with reasons being:

-It's the same boring encounters with silly mechanics added(why is a3s a hot potato raid?)
-BiSing really doesn't matter much since I knew in a few months there will be no need to actively pursue the gear.(hello welfare ark,hunts,relic, and possibly diadem)
-None of the encounters are memorable while I argue that some make no sense.
-Things felt more of like a job rather than an activity. Never have I felt more like an employer denying people left and right because their DPS wasn't acceptable or asking obnoxious(but necessary) questions to people such as what content they have cleared because nobody in my static wanted to reteach old and outclassed content to gear up someone we may or may not keep.
-I had 0 fun. All I got out of doing the raids was rotation practice and a false sense of power when acquiring new gear. Things get demoralizing when people mess up the same mechanics or just generally get pissy for nothing which only slows things down even more. All for what? A shiny new article of clothing to wear?

The only way i'd go back into Savage(read: nowhere beyond a2) is if i'm being paid or guaranteed loot for my main and alt if it drops. Unfortunately, the only downside to this is that there's no real content to make use of my abilities anymore, but it's a lot better than facewalling shit for weeks and months on end.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

serious question : If SE wasn't satisfied with content only 15% of players would ever see, why did they shrunk that percentage down to 1% ? Seems the worst possible decision here.

I mean, story mode was fine, but why the heck would they wreck what was fine ?

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Because the people clearing coil wanted harder stuff and booed them at fanfest for saying they'd make coil easier.

Also, since easy and savage use the same assets and things, anyone can experience them through easy mode, so it's not as much wasted development time to tweak it as it is to make a coil.

It's all because of the enrages, imo. They are poorly designed.

Heck the A1S enrage happens mid-mechanic. I still don't know who thought that was a good idea.

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Originally Posted by melisande

You can actually, pick what is good or bad simply by reading the TOS, which you should. External Voice Chat applications are not a third party application in violation of the TOS. ACT however, is, because specifically, it reads the games memory.

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By that logic, so is Windows, my antivirus, Blizzard's Warden, my spyware blocker, and a few other things.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Then a Raid Leader calling boss abilities would be consider cheating? He is calling out the moves too.

Sorry i cheated Titan hm in 2.0, my raid leader had a cheat sheet with all titan hm abilities and he called when he would do.

BTW: Other blunder, can't track CDs timer without hover the mouse and look the tooltip. That would be a great QoL.

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Yup, totally a cheater.

*sarcasm*

Back in my day, we had a list of abilities, what their recast timer was, my raid leader had a stopwatch and macros he'd hit to announce in raid chat(our OT was deaf) when stuff was happening.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Because the people clearing coil wanted harder stuff and booed them at fanfest for saying they'd make coil easier.

Also, since easy and savage use the same assets and things, anyone can experience them through easy mode, so it's not as much wasted development time to tweak it as it is to make a coil.

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Not "people clearing coil"
"The barking minority within the minority of top tier players"


But we all know that these guys will not be satisfied until they are alone on the mountain.
Heck, I'm sure they'd be against an AS4 nerf even though most of probably never bothered to try the non-cheesing way to do it.

While it doesn't change the tone of this conversation much, I have to point out that what was actually stated in the interview was that the number of people who cleared savage was about what they expected, and that the less than expected comment was specifically referring to A3 savage

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

While it doesn't change the tone of this conversation much, I have to point out that what was actually stated in the interview was that the number of people who cleared savage was about what they expected, and that the less than expected comment was specifically referring to A3 savage

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Isn't that a given considering (from what I've read, anyway) that the 1st and 2nd floors of Gordias Savage are on par with Second/Final Coil? People have been asking for the entire raid to be scaled around A1S difficulty, obviously going harder as people progress through it, but not to the extent of A3S's difficulty spike.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Isn't that a given considering (from what I've read, anyway) that the 1st and 2nd floors of Gordias Savage are on par with Second/Final Coil? People have been asking for the entire raid to be scaled around A1S difficulty, obviously going harder as people progress through it, but not to the extent of A3S's difficulty spike.

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I was only referring to the title of this topic, which is misleading.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

I was only referring to the title of this topic, which is misleading.

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Title is misleading, but the conversation the thread is bringing up is still relevant, due to the developers apparent confusion at how to proceed.

Savage isn't really the worst thing ever for what it's supposed to be, but I do think they overshot by just a smidge. I agree with what someone else said- they underestimated the raiding community in Final Coil, but they overestimated them when tuning Savage Alexander. It'd be one thing if people started clearing A3S like, a month or so after the first A4S clear, but... we're far past that and there's quite a few people that are barely there. How they think Thordan weapons are going to help that number is beyond me, considering people are already close to the maximum item level for this patch anyway (sans weapon).

It's just really bizarre too, it's like they were a centimeter away from the sweet spot with Second/Final Coil, but then reversed all of that progress for no reason. Moving right back to 8-man jump rope, where one mistake is just too many.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Isn't that a given considering (from what I've read, anyway) that the 1st and 2nd floors of Gordias Savage are on par with Second/Final Coil? People have been asking for the entire raid to be scaled around A1S difficulty, obviously going harder as people progress through it, but not to the extent of A3S's difficulty spike.

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They expected more folks to start clearing as we went further along, getting esoteric gear, but we havent.

Actually. A voice chat isn't listed as a third party program affecting gameplay seeing as it's not even related to the game itself. It would be same as saying you browsing the internet while having your game on is agaisnt rules or that checking guides in internet is agaisnt rules. So don't be an idiot.

Next. Parsers will allow you to know how you performing, they don't give you any advantage over other players. If you can't do better, parser won't make you do better.

Last. Ability macro calling gives a clearly unfair advantage seeing as they will let you know what boss is doing without even looking at the boss even if no one in your party is looking at it.

Also youre not going to tell me you have time to read a paper sheet while killing a boss. Legit people remember whole boss scripts in their mind as there's no time to look arround a paper sheet for which att he's gonna do next.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Not "people clearing coil"
"The barking minority within the minority of top tier players"


But we all know that these guys will not be satisfied until they are alone on the mountain.
Heck, I'm sure they'd be against an AS4 nerf even though most of probably never bothered to try the non-cheesing way to do it.

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Yep, I will be against AS4 nerf too. It's easy enough with cheese strategy (healers say that it's harder for them than normal way actually), and it will be a nice challenge do it "intended" way when we want to give it a try. And this nice challenge will be gone the same moment they nerf it. They actually nerfed it already, it is called A4 normal.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

snip

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urgh. This right here just shows the inherent problem. You cheesed a fight you didn't even attempt in its intended form, and still think everything is cool, no need to tune the fight down. It would have been so much fun to see devs acknowledging their error, refusing the cheese clear and removing any non-"rightly dealt with" clear before it was too late. People would have been so salty...

Also... You know, there are easy ways to nerf a fight without touching its core. Tune down HPs a bit to ease the dps check, give more time on the enrage timer (both easier as it eases the dps check, and harder as your top notch attention is required longer)... You don't even need to touch a single mechanic.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Better gear next patches will ease dps checks on it's own, no need to change the raid just for this. Think about people who are learning it right now - what they feel when SE nerfs the fight, and they get their kill just because of this.

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You're suggesting to gear in i220+ to beat content that is (theoretically) tuned for i205-210 ? like, seriously ?