Off topic: Lol I had to go back and read what you were talking bout lol oddly enough I call it this all the time in person, probably read it in your post here and decided it was ok to say here. lol Damn catchy names. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
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10-23-2015, 04:28 AMImoen
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10-23-2015, 05:26 AMIagainstiLol, don't mind me, I'm just being a dork.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoen
Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
"...then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."
So off point, but I said Holy Bombs, Not Holy Grenade -
10-23-2015, 05:42 AMImoenQuote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
LOL Forgot all about that movie. I feel ashamed. Been a long time since ive heard a reference to it lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
great, now I gotta load it up in the background here at work lol Thanks alot! lol
Wish it would get locked. -
10-23-2015, 05:50 AMIagainstiCan we all agree on this then?Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
When thy Party of Adventurers containeth one Mage of the White and One Knight of the Dark, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, not once, not twice, but sixeth timeth done,who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it, in which thy Darkest of Knights shall popeth thy Blood of thy Highest Priceth after seven, not eight, of thy precious seconds, to gaineth said fuel to pulleth thee next pack of foes. -
10-23-2015, 06:05 AMImoenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0wOD9TWynMQuote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
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10-23-2015, 07:08 AMTouchandFeel
Well, as for the argument at hand I take neither side as I feel both are partially right and partially wrong.
I just think people should take the following stance at this point.
http://img.pandawhale.com/81101-alri...aw-gi-JonN.gif -
10-23-2015, 08:07 AMKabooa
Guy on the left is the white mage. :3
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10-23-2015, 10:02 AMRahal
I think by far the worst healers or DRKs are the ones that think that Blood Price is based on damage taken, and so refuse to use any sort of mitigation (Adlo, Eye for an Eye, Virus, Disable, Bole, Nocturnal Benefic, Stoneskin or Holy) because they think that the bigger the ht you take, the more MP you gain.
It's actually a fixed 5% MP back per hit, and there is a hard limit on the amount of hits you can take per second. Note that this is the same MP return as a single Syphon Strike.
Also note that it is based on being hit. You can be hit for 0 and still gain MP back.
I've ran into so many bad SCHs that refuse to Adlo me because they think it will cause me to run out of MP faster. I've also ran into many a bad DRK that refuses to use Defensive CDs with BP up because they are convinced it will giv them less MP back.
Also the fact that you need to have taken a hit to get back MP also makes old content like Titan EX, Leviathan EX, Ramuh EX, T5, T8 and T9 infuriating to tank due to a combination of slow/no auto attacks, phase skipping, or the boss just outright missing you due to level correction. -
10-23-2015, 11:26 AMDreamWeaver
@Rahal
:O, I'm happy to admit I'm one of the idiots that didn't know BP works that way (Somebody else mentioned keeping BP for heavy damage phases, so I assumed it is determined by damage taken :().
Any idea what is the hard limit you can get hit per second?
I mean, 5% per mob hit seems to be a hell lotta MP recovered IMHO, wondering even if DRK and WHM locked horns (Holy and BP activated together), is the 8 seconds remaining on BP after the 7 second stun wore off not enough to recover the MP you used? -
10-23-2015, 01:16 PMSyzygianQuote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
I've never heard or observed anything about a hard limit, as 884 (Syphon Strike) does not divide evenly into 353 (Blood Price) and I've seen over half a dozen hits regening 353MP a piece trigger in under a second, so I'd say Rahal's numbers are not correct here. You can prove this simply by putting BP up before the 4-hit cleave on the first boss of Fractal. When it goes off it triggers 4 returns of 353MP in under a second for a total of 1412 MP. You can also test it by doing an extremely large pull and spamming Abyssal Drain. Repeated Abyssal Drain usage even combined with Darkside's drain (-972MP per GCD + -127MP per server tick) is not enough to cause you to suffer a net MP loss on its own if you are tanking enough trash with Blood Price up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahal
Maximizing DPS and hate during BP's duration on a large pull is close to 1000 MP every GCD (Abyssal Drain spam), more if you factor in drain from Darkside, so over the course of BPs duration a DRK will burn through over 7K MP at least, which is in excess of their total MP pool. BP returns exactly 353 MP per hit you take even if that hit does zero damage, so if you're tanking 8 mobs and they're each hitting you once every GCD, just as a hypothetical, that's almost 17K MP restored over 15s.
Over the course of a large pull a DRK will use Unmend, Unleash, and Abyssal Drain all at least once, before getting everything into position. Unmend to start, Unleash if you get a free proc or if you need to tag a large group without targeting it as you run through, and Abyssal Drain to tag small groups from a distance that are bunched up.
When you factor in Darkside's drain, its not uncommon for a DRK to be halfway to their mana floor by the time they settle into position, before they even start AoEing. This is a big part of why BP returns are so crucial. The AoEing and the pull commonly costs roughly 9-10K MP, and a DRK at 60 has only 6926 MP. A full duration of BP in a pull of around 8 mobs can generate between 15-20K MP depending on how often they hit you, so with all that extra MP we can Dark Arts AD. People slam this a lot, but AD hits each mob for about 600-700 in Grit in my mix of slaying and melds that has about 940 or so STR. Using the 8 mob example, this is a 4800-5600 self heal every other GCD (DA is a 5s recast).
So taking into account that a big pull+BP gives you near infinite MP for 15 seconds of sustained AoE DPS and enmity and powerful self heals, not to mention all the oGCDs DRK has, BP is like 15 seconds of fucking god-mode.
This is all taking into account my playstyle which is big pulls, because I'm a DRK and for DRK big pulls = more MP = more DPS = more hate = more self-heals = awesome speed run bruh = commendations.
Now in dungeons, the idea for me at least, is to stop AoEing about 1 GCD before BP ends, and this leaves me with near full MP. DRK has a lot of evasion boosting stuff and BPs downtime is the ideal time to use this because literally the only things that can potentially deal damage to you that won't give you MP under BP other than DoTs are things that you dodge. Weaving a DA DP and DA DD in between a couple of Syphon Strikes blinds the mobs and boosts my evasion which is a massive amount of mitigation without even touching any raw mitigation CDs like Shadowskin/Wall.
In theory, 8 seconds of BP is enough for a DRK to get the MP they need back albeit very conservatively and with not much room for error/self heals/additional MP usage at the end of the duration without a lot of slow single-target Syphon combos, but if you told a DRK they had to sacrifice 7 seconds of BP they would almost assuredly choose the last 7 seconds and not the first 7 because in a big pull those first few seconds is when shit often hits the fan, by the time the first 7 seconds has passed its usually too late if something has gone wrong. You drop low and need a quick self heal, a zealous DPS has yanked aggro on a straggler, or a regen/eye for an eye/Eos has managed to pull something off you. Every piece of ranged or AoE enmity DRK has costs MP, and as stated before, its not uncommon for a DRK to be sitting on half their MP by the time they arrive at the pull's destination.
For the record, these worst case scenarios rarely happen to me, but I pull big, tag everything, and use Plunge on distant mobs to gain ground on the rest of the party so usually by the time a WHM is Holy bombing BP only has 3-4 seconds left. Either that or they're being considerate. Either way they usually get my comm. That being said, a healer is in the perfect position to see all the information they need to gauge what their holy spam is doing; they can see when the DRK pops BP and how much time is remaining and are also able to watch the DRK's actual MP as it jumps up and down. I wouldn't encourage another WHM, if I was one, to wholly disregard this information and just Holy spam steam-roll over it. However, a very experienced DRK can find ways to work around this, but DRK MP is a very unstable thing and things can go pear-shaped easily if a WHM disregards what they are doing in certain scenarios.
A good DRK will get well ahead of you and have been AoEing and self-healing for close to 15 seconds by the time you get to where he is and do your Holy-prep, but a DF DRK may not. Keeping in mind that we're not all savage raiders/speed runners I'd advise anyone to be conscious of what their team mates are doing and in general try and facilitate their maximum performance as much as yours.
Also, 15s flies by. -
10-23-2015, 01:18 PMRocheKatSaving BP is for times when you are not going to get hit much/at all. First boss in fractal and ravana are good examples of bosses that have big gaps between hits on the tank because of their specials. Drk can spend MP on damage faster than it can be recovered in most cases so there really is no such thing as enough MP. Personally I think blood price is stupid cooldown for a tank but I guess SE doesn't agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
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10-23-2015, 01:40 PMSyzygianI fail to see the logic in people with this view. As a tank, if you're not the one getting hit by shit, you're not doing your job on the most fundamental and basic of levels. Having a cooldown that boosts your resources for DPS/mitigation/enmity based on getting hit is simply good game design.Quote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
Either way, you can't stun 99% of bosses in this game which means for purposes of this thread discussing BP usage on bosses is moot, but for what its worth, this is why a DRK must have such intimate knowledge of a fight, to learn when they are going to be hit the most (not the hardest; that doesn't matter) and thus learn opportunities to get the most MP. -
10-23-2015, 02:14 PMRocheKatNot just getting hit... getting hit as many times as possible. Oh and Drk has tools to reduce the chances they will be hit which adds to the wth factor of bloodprice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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10-23-2015, 02:28 PMSyzygian*epic sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
No. A skilled DRK uses these when BP is on cooldown. How is this not common knowledge yet?
#LOGIC -
10-23-2015, 03:04 PMImoenIf you are just saying Dark Dance, then ya, don't use that at the same time BP is up, use something else to stack with it like Shadowskin, shadowwall, foresight, convalescence, or awareness. Or a combination of those. EDIT: (Specifically DA+DD, you can still use base DD without DA.)Quote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
Use DD if you want to attempt to force a proc on reprisal, or if BP on CD for w/e reason assuming the mobs are still alive at that point.
Unless you are including Dark arts+ dark passenger combo because of the blind? -
10-23-2015, 03:18 PMRocheKatSo mr angry... care to comment on the first part? Where BP works best when you get hit as many times as possible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
DD, DA + DD, DA + DP, and Low blow. That is 3 or 4(depending on how if you count DD twice) abilities you have that reduce its effectiveness. Many of the other jobs also have stuns and slows which have the same negative effects on BP. Warriors never want to be hit, Plds pretty much never want to be hit unless they really want a shield swipe proc. The OP is talking about this issue... other people in your party can change how your class plays in a negative way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoen
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10-23-2015, 03:23 PMSyzygianAs opposed to what? Getting hit as many times as a WAR or PLD would tanking the same group of trash? Except getting a resource benefit from it that you can spend onQuote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
A: DPS(Enmity)?
B: Mitigation?
C: Self-Heals?
You get hit so you can get MP and MP is everything for DRK. All the hits that you take are pretty much just a wave that you surf on. Not getting hit at all is only one form of mitigation. And its a very rare/infrequent one. Most of the time you're reducing the damage or eating it and healing it back.
Scenario: I tank 6 mobs, they all hit me once, doing a total of 3K damage. I use the MP to DA an Abyssal Drain and heal for that same amount. Where is the issue here? There isn't one.
And as established (thankfully) in this thread, it matters not how much damage you take from these hits or even if they hit you for zero damage, you get MP. The primary function of this game's tanking mitigation is to reduce damage, not avoid getting hit (except when BP is on cooldown! then its dodgefest), until we have a genuine evasion-based tank.
Not angry, just very weary of seeing the "B-b-but DRK has MP regen based on getting hit... and it also has evasion boosting/blinding CDs... what do?" arguments when there's 25 seconds out of every 40 where you getting hit has no impact on your MP.
DD by itself (parrying) has no impact on BP returns. And I can easily just.. well.. not use my stun while I'm AoEing... or just use it anyway and cut my losses (a single hit of Blood Price from stunning a single mob out of many costing me an utterly negligible amount of MP). When a WHM uses holy and stuns 10 mobs however, that's 1000s of MP that just isn't happening now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
And also, PLD and WAR definitely want to be hit. They are tanks. And they do not have evasion-based cooldowns unless you're cross-classing lolFeatherfoot on WAR. You want to be hit, you just want to mitigate the hits or heal them up. That's what tanking is in this game. They all wanna get hit, because if they aren't getting hit, its the WHM getting hit 99 times out of 100 and when that happens they die and then you die. Tanks want to get hit. Period. Its a foregone conclusion when rolling a tank that you will be HIT. A LOT. Its a certainty. I fail to see why its bad that DRK just happens to get an additional reward from being hit and what point making such an argument has. -
10-23-2015, 03:39 PMImoenSorry, I don't really understand. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
DA+DD is an issue because that is evasion, I don't believe straight parry effects BP's return.
DA+DP is an issue because of the blind.
You just don't stack DA with these when BP is up.
As far as Low blow is concerned that is usually reserved for stunning special moves, or if BP is down and you are just trying to stop incoming damage. -
10-23-2015, 03:39 PMRocheKatuh... when war or pld is taking the whm can spam stun and not harm them in any way... or a slow on everything... or a blind on everything. That is the entire reason for the guy posting in the first place. He wants to get hit on Drk and Whms are messing with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Low blow is off GCD 100 pot + stun so it increases your damage done and reduces the damage you take. It has chance to reset on parry which works well with DD (providing you don't use DA first and yet again screw with your own abilities) and in aoe pulls resets a lot. The point was that Drk has multiple tools to reduce the chance of being hit at all which goes against DP and low blow since you can't parry when you evade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoen
These are issues Pld and War don't have. -
10-23-2015, 03:41 PMSyzygianActually the OP is a WHM complaining about DRKs, not the other way around. I think I'm the only one that noticed that. Raid Awareness! xDQuote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
The WHM versus DRK thing has been covered. What you're talking about in your recent posts is DRK somehow sabotaging itself through its own abilities, and that's what I'm responding to as someone that mains the job and raids with it and intimately understands its design. -
10-23-2015, 03:49 PMImoenQuote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Lol nope that's me being a dumb dumb because of all the tables flipped on my head during this.
He is leveling DRK though. -
10-23-2015, 03:56 PMSyzygianI hope he reads tooltips and puts 2 and 2 together well. Maybe he'll gain some empathy when he winds up with a WHM in the DF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoen
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10-23-2015, 04:04 PMImoen
I got spinning chocobo's man, for real.
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10-23-2015, 04:09 PMRocheKatQuote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
No idea why I listed DD... thinking it was evasion base and then thinking it gained evasion from DA. And no tanks do not want to get hit... your job is to control the fight and take as little damage as possible. The best way to do that is never get hit unless you are a Drk because you want to get hit sometimes. If there was a way for a tank to never get hit but still be the target of the critters that is exactly what they would all do (See also: Ninja FFXI).
Bolded: The argument is because Drk is the only tank of the three tanks that has three tools to get out of being hit at all and the only one to directly benefit from being hit (reprisal, low blow and blood price). -
10-23-2015, 04:12 PMImoen
That really isn't how most the tools work though, they reduce the damage or block or parry it. The hits are still connecting. Doesn't mean if BP is up you stand in red circles.
I'm sorry if I'm completely misunderstanding. -
10-23-2015, 04:18 PMSyzygianThis is irrelevant. There is no evasion tank in FFXIV right now. All tanks are still getting hit, and a PLD and WAR have no way to "avoid" getting hit any more than a DRK does. As Imoen says, the hits are still connecting. You are GOING to get hit and take damage, your job is to manage/mitigate/self-heal it. And again Imoen clarifies; it doesn't mean if BP is up you stand in fire and get hit by AoEs. -_-Quote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
Right now getting hit in this game, if you are a tank, means you have aggro and you are succeeding at the basest fundamental of the job you rolled. SE has given us a tank that actually mechanically rewards you for having aggro. How is this not good design?
Yes it has tools to benefit from being hit and tools to avoid being hit. They are not mutually inclusive and there is no rule or mechanic that requires you to utilize them at the same time, and there is more than enough downtime to alternate between them. I'm still failing to see the argument of how this, in practice, negatively effects the job's playstyle or viability.
Please please please please please play the job or at least do more research before continuing to post... -
10-23-2015, 05:29 PMImoenOH, I think I get what you are saying, well for dungeon runs there is usually, at least in the new dungeons, one mob in a pack that uses a special move or aoe that I would save low blow for when it comes out, I don't trust a parry LB proc to be ready for that moment, assuming people haven't already built up it's stun resist and it is still alive to use that ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by RocheKat
As far as if you have multiple mobs, ya I mean I guess that is one way to play, I would generally focus on MP spending moves if BP is giving returns though, the reset for low blow it self requires a parry so if mobs are stunned it won't reset either.
LB is single target as well though, I mean, I guess theoretically if you got lucky and proc'd enough you could manage to stun every single monster in the pack. (With each lowering your chances of procing LB again.) Otherwise there is still going to be lots of things hitting you. Even so though, you want to be using GCD moves, and weaving OGCD moves between that so I mean you would have to be one hell of a speed clicker, to manage not only keeping up on GCD but also manage to hit LB every time it is available while cycling through every single target you have in the pack. -
10-24-2015, 04:58 AMRahalYeah my post was badly worded and written at 3am. Thanks for correcting me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
It's per hit so you actually want BP up for phases where you get smacked a whole bunch of times. Preys in Alex Savage 1 is the best example.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
As I sad a long time ago, in this thread. It's easy to keep aggro from a Holybombing WHM. Holybomb is a sneeze compared to the AoE Threat a BLM, SMN and SCH can output. It's more painful when you have casters also out to win a Darwin Award and refuse to use Quelling Strikes until after the Holybomb -
10-24-2015, 05:45 AMImoen^ pretty much that. especially when coupled with a really strong melee dps that doesn't aoe and instead decides to focus down one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahal
Not an idiot >.> (and my apologies on my earlier post, I completely misunderstood your intentions.)Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
And ya it is a crap ton of MP, pretty much God mode.
The thing people keep assuming though, is that BP went up at the exact moment the first holy went off. Everyone sees 15 Seconds and says ok well 7 stun minus 15, what if BP was already in place before the Holy came in? (aka Surprise holy/late holy)
Anyway just something to think about - I know you have already said when you do it, you activate it right away. Thus not the target audience. -
10-24-2015, 06:04 AMKabooa
[15][14][13][12][11][10][ 9][ 8][ 7][ 6][ 5][ 4][ 3][ 2][ 1]
Show me where you put the 7 seconds (more realistically 5) seconds of stun where you don't get a minimum of 8 seconds. -
10-24-2015, 06:10 AMImoenI already said I'm not arguing with you, and I have already told you. (the timing in which it can be an issue) In a previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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10-24-2015, 12:11 PMSyzygianDon't be bullheaded. Be willing to compromise. If your DRK is able to skillfully do large pulls you should let him get off an AoE/Self-heal burst before you go in with yours simply because things will die faster with both of your AoE skills providing a constant assault instead of one overwriting the other. The run won't benefit from your "my way or the highway" approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
It all really depends on the size of the pull. If its only 3 mobs, 7-8 seconds is usually enough and most DRKs don't want to AoE that much in a pull of that size. But if they are pulling the entire first two rooms of Fractal and popping cooldowns, you better believe the DRK is going to want to AoE and that he will be spiking up to 1200 DPS with self-heals to match. -
10-24-2015, 01:14 PMImoenI don't think that is it, they have a 60 DRK, just for some reason they have it out for me and are hell bent on proving that I'm wrong or something, or proving that I'm a crappy player, or they are really really confused about what I am talking about vs what they are, either way I don't really care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
---------------------------(In detail of that.)-------------------------------------
I gave them more than enough info already, it's fairly easy to replicate, but I'm not going to spend a crap ton of time, getting friends together in game, go out and obtain old gear (to mimic that level), and throw a video together just to prove that a leveling drk can be on low MP at the end of the fight due to a late holy, when they are already expecting BP returns.
Anyone can walk up to a striking dummy and be insanely low on mp in 2 gcd and 2 ogcds moves on DRK starting at full mp, if they can't see how a surprise aoe SC Holy coming later in BPs life span couldn't screw you up, with DPS that out gear you, when you are already in a situation where you are expecting those returns.. I really, really don't know what to say to them. -
10-24-2015, 01:49 PMeagledorfWow, well if you really can burst at 1200...Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
that's about half of what a WHM bursts at in the first room of Fractal or ~200 DPS less than a PLD's single target burst. Truly they should stop Holying for 15 seconds lest you be forced to not self-heal or use Delirium =|
More importantly, you break even on Holy when your ΔDPS = ΔWHM DPS, NOT when your DPS = WHM DPS.
...touche. I didn't notice at all.Quote:
stuff about how the OP is a WHM player
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10-24-2015, 02:24 PMImoenWell, jee off topic but that bums me out I'm at 900 right now with 3 Vit Acc to rep still and im not even done with left side for PLD :( Assuming you are talking sword correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by eagledorf
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10-24-2015, 02:35 PMeagledorf
Yeah, Sword and also with a WAR or NIN and all STR. Well, and with i210 weapon.
900 is fine if you're wearing any VIT accessories. Typically at the end of a dungeon boss fight that doesn't involve EveryBossGoesInvulnerableReap you see like 900-1100 DPS from PLDs in STR gear so that seems pretty good to me. -
10-24-2015, 02:37 PMImoenya that just bums me out knowing ima put all the rest of that work in and only get 100 dps out of it. lol anyway I digress thanks for the response. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by eagledorf
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10-24-2015, 02:47 PMeagledorf
Ah...well I mean it's quite a lot of DPS for one person to gain. Remember it used to be about that much gained for each tier of gear, not for upgrades within each tier. I suppose it seems small though now that we're doing a thousand DPS each...
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10-24-2015, 02:51 PMImoenWell for tank I didn't really start keeping track till HW because of the shift. I was all like "I CAN EAT ALL THE THINGS! READY - SET - RAID!" lol So I don't really know for 2.0 what it was like. Then again my grp kinda likes taking it easy and waiting a bit, I'm all like 'DUDE lets go get our *ss kicked!" and they all like "nah" then I go sulk in a corner like "but, but for the glory and Eorzea!" /cry lolQuote:
Originally Posted by eagledorf
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10-24-2015, 06:24 PMSyzygianUhhh... I think you quoted the wrong person here... Correct me if I'm wrong but we seem to have been in agreement on the last few pages of this thread? Suddenly we're enemies here? ok... =/ I'm not following.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoen
1200 yes, give or take 50-100 depending on gear. In a mix of slaying and melds AoEing on several packs of trash, that's more than doable.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagledorf
There's really zero need to be combative, and when I quote that DPS it is not to say that I would or could out-DPS a WHM, its just that their burst effectively overwrites a DRK's if it is poorly timed and they are not paying attention to each other. Its not to compare a DRK's DPS to anybody's really, its just a large and relatively lengthy AoE burst, for a tank, that contributes to the party clearing the dungeon faster. That'd be 1200 DPS that just doesn't happen, and sustained over double the period of time during which a WHM would be Holying, according to the many posts from said WHMs in this thread. The WHM would still get to Holy bomb but apparently a short wait is too much to ask, even when they'd get the same burst and no more, assuming they care about their MP. I referenced the self heals as they can largely negate the damage that would have otherwise been stunned by Holy assuming the DRK is popping a CD or two. Oh, and I was talking AoE DPS, of which PLD has next-to-none, nor was I making any comparisons between the tanks' DPS at all for that matter.
And as you elaborated in your subsequent post that you're referring to a PLD in SwO with full slaying and i210, show me a PLD in SwO holding hate on 10+ mobs against equally competent DPS, while also bursting 1400 on single-target DPS. We're talking about dungeons and big packs of trash here.
ΔDPS... if we're talking about the deficit a DRK suffers in DPS, enmity, self-healing, and resources from having literally everything they are tanking stunned repeatedly for 7 seconds while BP is ticking, as opposed to said targets remaining unstunned, its huge. A lot changes, actually. Flexible, varied, powerful, and consistent AoE DPS is one of DRK's utilities in 4-man content, and even some 8-man stuff (A2S). DRKs are not asking WHMs to not DPS, they're asking them to wait a VERY short period of time after they catch up to the tank before they start AoE stuns. WHM suffers no "ΔDPS" because there is no DPS that otherwise does not happen, it is merely delayed for a strategic reason- if you see the DRK pop BP immediately (most do), be polite and wait. If they don't, Holy for days. Don't punish your tank for trying to make a solid contribution to AoEing trash down and speeding up the run. Its as petty as DPS bickering over who is on LB duty. Weigh the options and allow the party as a whole to function and perform at max efficiency, not JUST yourself.
Honestly I really don't see what people are so worked up about. I've never met a WHM in the DF that didn't wait until my BP only had about a GCD's worth of time left to start Holying. But the "I am WHM, hear me roar, screw your DPS ya dumb DRKs how dare you ask ANYTHING of us" attitude in here is wholly foreign to me in-game. But maybe that's because I don't put up annoying macros. :P