Savage Alexander and the Paladin Exodus

Not all content is going to favor every class. However this does point out their lack of creativity with new raids and mechanics, EVERYTHING is a DPS check and that's about all there is to it; the game is becoming a current WoW clone.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

And you can't see that as being a bad thing? Luckily enough Yoshi does see it thus and generally jobs are buffed so they are as viable as the other jobs in the same archetype.

FFXI was terrible for that.

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Total homogenization across all jobs is bad for the game. It takes away some of the potential uniqueness different jobs bring to the table.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

Okay. Then lets make some mobs 30% resistant to either blunt, piercing, or slashing damage. Also Ifrit and Shiva are cured when attacked by their respective elements.

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They should bring back elemental resist why we are at it. Would make for a far more interesting game.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

And this is where I'll come in to inform you that you can edit a post and not meet a character limit when editing a post.

But of course people are going to lay into you about making 5 posts rather than reading your reasonable perspective.

Welcome to the OF. :)

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Not on cellphones. you cant edit posts on mobile. FYI.

Again, I don't think DPS checks are a problem. The game needs hard metrics to meter the competency of players within their jobs. Alexander has a good balance between mechanics and DPS checks, Paladin just isn't a part of the balance equation currently. Variance between the classes on a per encounter basis is normal, but Paladin goes outside of this to be actively detrimental on A3S and A4S.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Again, I don't think DPS checks are a problem. The game needs hard metrics to meter the competency of players within their jobs. Alexander has a good balance between mechanics and DPS checks, Paladin just isn't a part of the balance equation currently. Variance between the classes on a per encounter basis is normal, but Paladin goes outside of this to be actively detrimental on A3S and A4S.

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emmm nope, coil have a awesome balance in mechanics and dps, all turns of coil make tanks to survive and keep agro very hard whit hight hits from the boses, dps need push to max and dont eat nothing to stay alive and healers need heal like a hell.

alexander only force all clases to dealt a stupid amount of dps whit zero mechanic dificult, titan hard in they time whas more hard compare to AS 1, and coil 1 whas a good boss whit caduceus the double snake need feed to reduce stacks, and the shining ground, old times.

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Originally Posted by newb

Not all content is going to favor every class. However this does point out their lack of creativity with new raids and mechanics, EVERYTHING is a DPS check and that's about all there is to it; the game is becoming a current WoW clone.

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If it was a wow clone we wouldn't be having this discussion because all of their tanks are copies of each other.

This thread isn't about Coil, it's about Paladins and their performance in current Savage Alexander content. A1S and A2S aren't very difficult as far as DPS requirements go so Paladins don't really hurt your group on these fights. Get to A3S and A4S and you'll see what we mean.

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Originally Posted by shao32

alexander only force all clases to dealt a stupid amount of dps whit zero mechanic dificult, titan hard in they time whas more hard compare to AS 1, and coil 1 whas a good boss whit caduceus the double snake need feed to reduce stacks, and the shining ground, old times.

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Lol, come back and say that when you have actually cleared a floor in Savage.

Also healing Alexander is a lot harder than healing Coil, I'm not sure how someone without a single healer to 50 would be able to know the difference anyway.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Lol, come back and say that when you have actually cleared a floor in Savage.

Also healing Alexander is a lot harder than healing Coil, I'm not sure how someone without a single healer to 50 would be able to know the difference anyway.

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i have a second character WHM , is only ilvl 90 but i heal the bahamut coil t1 to t5 before echo so i have a idea how the heal job is.

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Originally Posted by Nomad-phx

Not on cellphones. you cant edit posts on mobile. FYI.

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Err can on mobiles, source: I only post via mobile phone

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Originally Posted by shao32

i have a second character WHM , is only ilvl 90 but i heal the bahamut coil t1 to t5 before echo so i have a idea how the heal job is.

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Again, come back when you have actually cleared a floor in Savage. A3S would love to have a chat with you about that "zero mechanic dificult".

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

Err can on mobiles, source: I only post via mobile phone

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Mobile site does not have this option.

You must be using desktop site on your mobile device then.

As much as I love the idea of an anti-mage tank, making PLD physical mitigation master, and DRK magical mitigation master, was a really stupid idea.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

Again, come back when you have actually cleared a floor in Savage. A3S would love to have a chat with you about that "zero mechanic dificult".

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Ehhh to be fair the mechanics themselves on A3S are not terribly complex, probably the most complicated thing is sluice+wave. Its just that you have to keep up near-perfect rotation while doing them, because SE jammed a very tight hard-enrage mechanic into every fight in alex. A crisis of creativity perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Walluh

As much as I love the idea of an anti-mage tank, making PLD physical mitigation master, and DRK magical mitigation master, was a really stupid idea.

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From a design perspective, it's a great idea. It's gives each job identity and makes them feel uniquely tailored. You are right though, the idea makes sense but the execution is unbearably bad. With content designed how it currently is being primarily magic damage and block being devalued as much as it has been in Heavensward that is was very, very shortsighted. Coupled with Paladin's extremely low DPS in an environment that requires high output from tanks, they are just left holding the check in end-game causing players pushing A4S to drop the job completely. This brings me back to a point I made several pages ago: that the developer's vision for these jobs seems to be directly at odds with how they play out in the game itself.

WoW tried the magic tank thing with DKs.

Didn't work well. With five classes that can tank(monk, druid, Paladin, death knight, warrior as soon demon hunter) they can't really get away with "best tank" for long because that's way too big a balance issue.

Kinda why they're all copycats of each other. Druid/monk are dodge tanks. Paladin/warrior are shield block tanks. Death knight is a halfass heal/absorb/parry tank.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

WoW tried the magic tank thing with DKs.

Didn't work well. With five classes that can tank(monk, druid, Paladin, death knight, warrior as soon demon hunter) they can't really get away with "best tank" for long because that's way too big a balance issue.

Kinda why they're all copycats of each other. Druid/monk are dodge tanks. Paladin/warrior are shield block tanks. Death knight is a halfass heal/absorb/parry tank.

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I don't really have much to add on this topic in general, but as someone who's played 4/5 tank classes on WoW, I feel the need to step in here and tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about. WoW tanks are not "clones," as you put it--each has a distinct playstyle and each has different strengths, which have in fact suffered similar balance issues. If you need proof of that, ask how many DKs solo tanked Ra-den back when he was current, then compare to the number of paladins or monks. WoW has a lot of problems, which is why I left it to come here, but a lack of variety in tank design is not one of them. Indeed, its tank design is possibly the thing I most sorely miss here so far...

For the record:

Druids have avoidance-based active mitigation with some self-healing on top of it. Also very high passive mitigation.

Monks have some minor avoidance, but their theme is much more reactive self-healing through purifying their stagger, putting up Guard at appropriate times, and using Expel Harm if they get low--they're significantly more active than Druids, and most similar to Death Knights in their design. Also have very strong cds. My personal favorite tank.

Paladin have passive block that accounts for almost nothing, and then active mitigation in the form of Shield of the Righteous which reduces physical damage by a flat percentage. Also has emergency self-healing, and some passive healing. Option to spec for an even more active rotation with Seraphim, or a more passive one with Holy Shield.

Warriors have passive block, but also active mitigation which gives short-duration bursts of 100% block chance, as well as the ability to "critical block" for twice the amount of a normal block. Almost no self-healing, but high passive damage reduction to compensate.

Death Knights are another extremely reactive, active-mitigation based tank. High hp, lower passive mitigation, and self-heals that scale well with damage taken. Self-healing also triggers a physical absorb shield. Some strong anti-magic cooldowns--mainly anti-magic shell--but hardly a "magic tank." My personal second favorite tank.

When I say DK and monk are self-healing--in a raid setting, I would consistently do 40-60% of my own healing on these two, not even counter purified stagger dot on monk. I don't think you can honestly call any of these clones. Does having different design cause imbalances? Yes, definitely, but I think the variety is worth the price of that overall.

As far as FFXIV tank balance goes, I obviously need to wait until 60 to see for sure, but even at the level I'm at, I can already kind of understand where the sentiments I've seen in this thread are coming from. It's a pity, since I find the class to have much more interesting flavor than Warrior, and yet mechanically it seems in every way lacking in that comparison. Have yet to try Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i have a second character WHM , is only ilvl 90 but i heal the bahamut coil t1 to t5 before echo so i have a idea how the heal job is.

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So you've healed some the first raid just under two years ago and are now qualified to talk about the difficulty of healing over the next three raids without healing them? You don't have a level 60 healer, any experience healing through SCoB & FCoB, or any progress in Alexander...you're not qualified to be able to make those comparisons, the same as you don't have any experience in Alexander to be able to comment on the complexity of the mechanics.

Seriously what is it with players on these forums, you guys can't make the dps check past Faust, so that must mean all of Savage is a dps check with no mechanics right?

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Originally Posted by CyberForte

When I say DK and monk are self-healing--in a raid setting, I would consistently do 40-60% of my own healing on these two, not even counter purified stagger dot on monk. I don't think you can honestly call any of these clones. Does having different design cause imbalances? Yes, definitely, but I think the variety is worth the price of that overall.

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As a fellow tank from WoW (prot warrior), you have to remember that people didn't discriminate against any type of tank outside of content just not meshing with the tank in question (ex: bear druids not being able to tank Illidan because they had no block mechanic to mitigate Shear). Even when we had mass paladins and DKs during Wrath people didn't kick warriors or druids to the curb (or, as a parallel to what's happening here, call them useless/weak).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

As a fellow tank from WoW (prot warrior), you have to remember that people didn't discriminate against any type of tank outside of content just not meshing with the tank in question (ex: bear druids not being able to tank Illidan because they had no block mechanic to mitigate Shear). Even when we had mass paladins and DKs during Wrath people didn't kick warriors or druids to the curb (or, as a parallel to what's happening here, call them useless/weak).

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A lot of that could just be because it was neither expected nor really possible to gear every tank. Here, eso gear and weapon are the only things separating the tanks' gear. When we get a good PLD here who we'd rather have as a WAR or DRK, we think nothing of telling them to swap, especially when they're only a couple of slots into eso or less. You don't want your Bear tank, well... let's hope he's just as good a player as a healer or dps. (Likely one of those will pan out, but even then, do you have a spot for either of those?) Not only was the community a bit more accepting, but the game also made it gave good players a bit more safety in their class choices. I kind of miss that, though not as much as I love XIV's freedom.
[Blood DK horde, Prot WAR alliance tanking when I raided, though have tanked as every class during Wrath and WoD, just not all in real raiding]

A bit more on topic: I'd have to agree with Cyber that the WoW tanks are at least as varied as XIV's (though I can think of some cases where they were more varied in previous installments, they've actually done a bit better on average against homogenization than dps classes).

On topic: Given how modest the requests from PLD raiders, or would-be raiders are, I don't see why it would be called any more than a hot-fix to cover. I really hope they get at least that much, and the SE can see from there.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

Again, come back when you have actually cleared a floor in Savage. A3S would love to have a chat with you about that "zero mechanic dificult".

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don't tell whats turns i beat and i don't beat, i see the entire AS3 savage and i play in that turn, don't say nothing like that if you don't know how i am and how im done.

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Originally Posted by shao32

don't tell whats turns i beat and i don't beat, i see the entire AS3 savage and i play in that turn, don't say nothing like that if you don't know how i am and how im done.

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I don't really believe that, you haven't got a single piece of Savage gear, if you were on A3S you would have had enough pages to buy some by now, let alone the actual drops from the floors them selves.

A 4th group has cleared A4S, still no Paladins in sight. Updated the OP, kill videos are coming out so more kills will surface soon.

3 more clears since yesterday, again 0 Paladins have completed the fight. Can the developers please respond to this yet or does this need to continue?

I finally gave in to the developers and got my WAR up with plans of retiring my PLD. I just don't see the use for them at all since 3.0 hit. No use in raiding content, that is. Maybe SE intended all PLD to retire? I kid. Still waiting for those enmity buffs they've mentioned as they still refuse to acknowledge the lack of PLD in Savage.

This game was made for bandwagoners. That's all there is to it really.

Yep- flavor of the month sort of deal. Super unfortunate- but I main my PLD for the purpose of nostalgically soloing stuff with my sword/board that other jobs can solo just as well lol

You guys know that next FOTM Paladins might be the best tanks if all the tankbusters are phys right?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You guys know that next FOTM Paladins might be the best tanks if all the tankbusters are phys right?

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Which you can still cheese with warrior Holmgang.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You guys know that next FOTM Paladins might be the best tanks if all the tankbusters are phys right?

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SE still has to design encounters in a way that all 3 tanks are viable to be MT or OT. So while PLD might be able to take the least amount of damage from the tank buster, the other 2 tanks will be able to survive it as well while still doing more DPS.

So Au'ra wearing masks get graphical adjustments and Monks have their Chakra cheesing fixed...any word on Paladin adjustments coming down the pipes?

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

So Au'ra wearing masks get graphical adjustments and Monks have their Chakra cheesing fixed...any word on Paladin adjustments coming down the pipes?

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Probably 3.1.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

SE still has to design encounters in a way that all 3 tanks are viable to be MT or OT. So while PLD might be able to take the least amount of damage from the tank buster, the other 2 tanks will be able to survive it as well while still doing more DPS.

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All the tanks are viable, just not preferred. Viable just means capable.

Great post OP. Hopefully the Dev Team sees this.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Ehhh to be fair the mechanics themselves on A3S are not terribly complex, probably the most complicated thing is sluice+wave. Its just that you have to keep up near-perfect rotation while doing them, because SE jammed a very tight hard-enrage mechanic into every fight in alex. A crisis of creativity perhaps?

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More like they were pressured by raiders for harder content so they use absurd dps checks only thing they could really.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

So Au'ra wearing masks get graphical adjustments and Monks have their Chakra cheesing fixed...any word on Paladin adjustments coming down the pipes?

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Don't forget the bikinis in the cash shop!lul 😓😑 SE really needs to prioritize making all jobs equally beneficial for raid content before adding junk to the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

All the tanks are viable, just not preferred. Viable just means capable.

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I guess that's why we've seen so many Paladins clear A4S.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

All the tanks are viable, just not preferred. Viable just means capable.

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I know all tanks are viable, they are all viable even now (just one tank has the encounter design stacked against them). The poster I replied to made it seem like if a PLD was able to mitigate tank busters better, people would flock to it. It's a very premature assumption. People will generally flock to whichever job will make the encounter easier to clear earlier than intended or just clear in general. In PLD's case, until it's "beefy" physical mitigation (it's not even leaps and bounds better ignoring HG) allows for more raid DPS, it's utility just negates or trivializes a mechanic, or as was the case in 2.0 Coil, survive encounters while being very undergeared, it'll be overlooked.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i have a second character WHM , is only ilvl 90 but i heal the bahamut coil t1 to t5 before echo so i have a idea how the heal job is.

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lol. Healing T1-5 was a joke compared to anything later.

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Originally Posted by shao32

don't tell whats turns i beat and i don't beat, i see the entire AS3 savage and i play in that turn, don't say nothing like that if you don't know how i am and how im done.

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Its a valid question. Even if the dropluck is bad, you should have got at least one piece, if not two, just by tokens till now, if you relly are progressing in A3S.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

More like they were pressured by raiders for harder content so they use absurd dps checks only thing they could really.

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They should have just made Titan: Ultimate Extremely Hard Mode if they wanted to give us a reallllll challenge. LANDSLIDES ALL AROUND!