Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

We're still six months or so away from a new raid tier, and the fact is that warrior's advantages are so universal and there's so few disadvantages in their toolkit that I find it bloody unlikely that they'll fall behind in the next Alexander raid unless they introduce a boss with a debuff called "Hit yourself with your axe" that exclusively targets WARs and makes them Fell Cleave themselves every 30 seconds.

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So I take it you're going to keep ignorng pages of discussion and follow your baseline of "Woe is me, WAR is too good". Read Phoenicia's post on page nine and try to refute any of it.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

a lot of gud stuff.

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^ this
/10char

I agree with everything the topic starter says about Warrior - SE, please NERF Warrior -> it's out of control compared to PLD and DRK-> it's a healer, tank and DPS in one - the balance is ridiculous compared to Dark Knight and Paladins.

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

I agree with everything the topic starter says about Warrior - SE, please NERF Warrior -> it's out of control compared to PLD and DRK-> it's a healer, tank and DPS in one - the balance is ridiculous compared to Dark Knight and Paladins.

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Why does everyone jump straight to nerf WAR instead of buff PLD and DRK?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Why does everyone jump straight to nerf WAR instead of buff PLD and DRK?

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Schadenfreude.

Tbh though, I am a little hesitant to think that balance issues should just be fixed by a round of buffs. That can lead to bad power creep down the road. A bit of both is probably the best way to handle it, with being very careful about how any nerfs are implemented.

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Originally Posted by Tila

So I take it you're going to keep ignorng pages of discussion and follow your baseline of "Woe is me, WAR is too good". Read Phoenicia's post on page nine and try to refute any of it.

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Except there's no reason to refute any of it, because it actually supports the OP. Here's the short summary of it (except I'm going to do it reverse, from 4 to 1):

- You don't NEED Storm's Path. But its better than PLD utility and certainly better than the nothing that DRK brings
- WAR OT DPS isn't that great compared to PLD/DRK, so long as the fight have breaks in-between
- PLD/DRK DPS is roughly equal to WAR...providing you bring a NIN with you
- WAR MT is actually just as good as PLD/DRK MT

His post actually supports the OT, because he illustrates the problem that many has with WAR's current position...it can do anything and everything. There are things that DRK does better than PLD, and vice versa. And there are things that DRK/PLD can do as well as WAR, but there's always a caveat, whether its the type of enemies you fight, the encounter mechanics, or party composition. Whereas when it comes to WAR, there's no caveats. You just slot one, and you're good to go.

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Except there's no reason to refute any of it, because it actually supports the OP. Here's the short summary of it (except I'm going to do it reverse, from 4 to 1):

- You don't NEED Storm's Path. But its better than PLD utility and certainly better than the nothing that DRK brings
- WAR OT DPS isn't that great compared to PLD/DRK, so long as the fight have breaks in-between
- PLD/DRK DPS is roughly equal to WAR...providing you bring a NIN with you
- WAR MT is actually just as good as PLD/DRK MT

His post actually supports the OT, because he illustrates the problem that many has with WAR's current position...it can do anything and everything. There are things that DRK does better than PLD, and vice versa. And there are things that DRK/PLD can do as well as WAR, but there's always a caveat, whether its the type of enemies you fight, the encounter mechanics, or party composition. Whereas when it comes to WAR, there's no caveats. You just slot one, and you're good to go.

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OP made the point that WAR was better at everything. The person we're talking about pointed out various situations where the WAR doesnt shine. OP brought up WAR damage being better despite it not being hugely above others. Many things the OP said contrast to what Phoenicia said. The OP even had the nerve to imply WAR is easier to play than the others and thus shouldn't be so effective.

The OP made a hugely biased topic and has thus far ignored any feedback to the contrary of their original point.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Why does everyone jump straight to nerf WAR instead of buff PLD and DRK?

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Because "buff everyone" is the equivalent of using bumper sticker quotes in an academic debate. In a perfect world it all sounds good just provide some buffs. But that throws off dps checks, which causes fights to need to be retuned, could affect the pacing of fights, the viability of other classes in fights and so on in a cascading domino effect. It's a sad truth but in the real world dealing with real developers, nerfs to one class and sadly far far more practical than buffs to multiple classes.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Why does everyone jump straight to nerf WAR instead of buff PLD and DRK?

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I think the question is whether or not DRK (with slashing debuff) or WAR are doing too much damage (too close to actual DPS) or whether it's the PLD is too little.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Things.

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Yes, that would be true if DRK and PLD were actually leagues behind compared to WAR DPS. But they aren't! Both DRK and PLD are equal and very close respectively to WAR's DPS once the slashing debuff is applied. No buffs needed.

The problem is people are crying about PLD MT DPS, but PLD's MT DPS is its inherent disadvantage, in a fight where PLD's advantage (shield) is thrown out the window, the ACTUAL work around is to let the PLD OT and the other tank (WAR or DRK) MT. The problem is NOT that PLD sucks. It is that people are too stupid to work around its flaws.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Because "buff everyone" is the equivalent of using bumper sticker quotes in an academic debate. In a perfect world it all sounds good just provide some buffs. But that throws off dps checks, which causes fights to need to be retuned, could affect the pacing of fights, the viability of other classes in fights and so on in a cascading domino effect. It's a sad truth but in the real world dealing with real developers, nerfs to one class and sadly far far more practical than buffs to multiple classes.

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The only adjustment to actual DPS that's needed is to PLD, and even then only a slight one. I think PLD/DRK both need something to manage TP as OT as well, but that only makes their DPS better sustained like WAR's. Adjusting/buffing defensive related things won't really throw off any balance in regards to the actual fights, though may shift optimal party comps a bit (or, best case scenario, make all 3 tanks desirable in either role).

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Yes, that would be true if DRK and PLD were actually leagues behind compared to WAR DPS. But they aren't! Both DRK and PLD are equal and very close respectively to WAR's DPS once the slashing debuff is applied. No buffs needed.

The problem is people are crying about PLD MT DPS, but PLD's MT DPS is its inherent disadvantage, in a fight where PLD's advantage (shield) is thrown out the window, the ACTUAL work around is to let the PLD OT and the other tank (WAR or DRK) MT. The problem is NOT that PLD sucks. It is that people are too stupid to work around its flaws.

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People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

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Originally Posted by Tila

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

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If balance for PLD is supposed to be they are more defensive and that's why they have lower DPS, that's one thing. However, if PLD is only more defensive against physical damage (not magical) and then SE makes most of the threatening moves in a raid magical, then the PLD loses his intended advantage while keeping his weakness.

It would be similar if all of the raid content had heavy physical busters and didn't have stringent DPS checks, or didn't have stringent DPS checks that the MT could participate in for some reason. DRK would be all weakness, no strength in these situations.

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Originally Posted by Tila

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

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You are right. But even tip top raiders are people, they are prone to overlook things. I haven't watched the streams either, but I think I can safely assume that in As3, Lucrezia and Elysium did not try to make the WAR MT and PLD OT before kicking out the PLD and MNK and replacing them with DRK and NIN.

My point is that PLD isn't glaringly imbalanced. PLD's inherent disadvantage is that it does the lowest MT DPS as a price they pay for being the safest tank in the game. PLD has the most potent offensive stance of the three tanks at the price of lowest aggro generation out of tank stance. That is pretty balanced imo.

Now before people mistake this, Safest tank =/= highest mitigation. My post on page 9 shows that PLD has no clear advantage over WAR in mitigation and both WAR and PLD are far ahead DRK in physical and far behind DRK in magical environments.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

If balance for PLD is supposed to be they are more defensive and that's why they have lower DPS, that's one thing. However, if PLD is only more defensive against physical damage (not magical) and then SE makes most of the threatening moves in a raid magical, then the PLD loses his intended advantage while keeping his weakness.

It would be similar if all of the raid content had heavy physical busters and didn't have stringent DPS checks, or didn't have stringent DPS checks that the MT could participate in for some reason. DRK would be all weakness, no strength in these situations.

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As I said in my other posts, if PLD's advantage as MT is lost, just have it OT. Being so fixated on sticking PLD to the MT role is what is killing the paladin princesses out there. There are TWO other tanks in this game that do a better job in a certain fight. That is fine as that is the point of having different classes. Some classes have to be better than others at something. There is no need for PLD to level DRK or even switch to anything else.

Taking A4 as an example (As it is the only fight in the game where Shield is totally neglected when PLD main tanks), that fight has adds and quarantine, PLD SwO DPS is not far behind WAR and DRK, PLD OT utility is great with Clemency. Just switch your WAR (Since he's in every raid group, right?) to MT and let the PLD OT that one fight! Guess what happens? MAGIC!

WAR MT does far more DPS than PLD MT. The combination of WAR MT / PLD OT has overall more raid DPS than PLD MT / WAR OT specially if WAR stance dances. With roughly 1 minute intervals between busters, that's plenty of time in Deliverance!

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You are right. But even tip top raiders are people, they are prone to overlook things. I haven't watched the streams either, but I think I can safely assume that in As3, Lucrezia and Elysium did not try to make the WAR MT and PLD OT before kicking out the PLD and MNK and replacing them with DRK and NIN.

My point is that PLD isn't glaringly imbalanced. PLD's inherent disadvantage is that it does the lowest MT DPS as a price they pay for being the safest tank in the game. PLD has the most potent offensive stance of the three tanks at the price of lowest aggro generation out of tank stance. That is pretty balanced imo.

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I think PLD is still doing lower DPS even when in their "most potent offensive stance". So what it really means is that when the PLD loses that, it's DPS becomes very noticeably lower than the other two classes while tanking.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I think PLD is still doing lower DPS even when in their "most potent offensive stance". So what it really means is that when the PLD loses that, it's DPS becomes very noticeably lower than the other two classes while tanking.

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As I said before, a cheap price to pay for the relative safety they inherently bring compared to the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

As I said before, a cheap price to pay for the relative safety they inherently bring compared to the other jobs.

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It's too low, and if there's too much magic damage, they aren't safe. The result is low DPS for nothing gained.

Clemency is good sometimes (if they have time to cast it), but using it further reduces their DPS as OT, which is already looking to be lower than the other 2 as an OT.

Some people in this thread is misinformed..

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Yes, that would be true if DRK and PLD were actually leagues behind compared to WAR DPS. But they aren't! Both DRK and PLD are equal and very close respectively to WAR's DPS once the slashing debuff is applied. No buffs needed.

The problem is people are crying about PLD MT DPS, but PLD's MT DPS is its inherent disadvantage, in a fight where PLD's advantage (shield) is thrown out the window, the ACTUAL work around is to let the PLD OT and the other tank (WAR or DRK) MT. The problem is NOT that PLD sucks. It is that people are too stupid to work around its flaws.

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Can you show me some parses of PLD/DRK hitting the same upper limits of WAR, even with slashing debuff? I've never seen any good ones. Closest thing was DRK pre-DA fix, but after that I'm not sure how they can achieve similar DPS as WAR as that was a pretty large DPS hit.

Your second point is just further proving the OP's original post. You're basically agreeing that WAR can be a good MT/OT with no penalty in every fight, it's really only PLD/DRK who you have to actually plan your entire raid comp around or consider the fight. WAR just fits no matter what, in either role.

I don't think that WAR needs a nerf, and being the top DPS tank isn't really an issue either, it's just that they give up nothing in order to have it. All of their strengths are general use and apply in every fight, and like the OP said, they don't have a real glaring weakness like the other tanks have. The smartest solution would be to make both DRK/PLD have that same viability, so that they can fit in either role. Right now that's just not the case. Telling PLD's or DRK's to just OT in magic/physical fights respectively is missing the point entirely, as WAR is even the better OT. They do have more damage. They do have more sustainability. They do bring better utility.

I think the only reason you don't see WAR/WAR combos at this point is simply because many groups are bringing DRG over MNK now, and therefore DRK's main reason to be there is it's ability to have a DK substitute. (well that an LB, I guess)

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Originally Posted by Tila

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

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Balance should be done around the top meta because that is not only where balance issues are most glaringly obvious or relevant, it also tends to trickle down into player perception. People see these raid set ups and often emulate or believe they must be the best. This leads to general group discrimination.

Besides, what else would you base balance on? There's no other content in the game where it could actually matter, people can clear everything else no matter the composition.

I like playing warrior, but as a dungeon tank it's definitely less stable. PLD/DRK can more reliably put up buffs like rampart to keep the average incoming damage lower early in the pull. Defiance not buffing healing abilities makes warriors harder to keep up. On the other hand they're pretty fun to smash everything with.

Raids are more of a mixed bag... it always depends on which buffs sync up with the heavy attacks better. Warrior was great in t5 because inner beast was a perfect foil to death sentence, and t9 to ravensbeak whatever that berserk spear thrusting move was called, but has no good answer to heavy sustained damage once vengeance is down.

Overall it's fine. Each tank has their moments where they have an edge. Situational perks allow the jobs to have their flavour without making them all seem the same.

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

Bunch of things that are missing the point

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Here is Lucrezia's Ravana speed kill, and here is their parse. Both tanks were going FULL DPS. DRK "beat" WAR by 40 DPS. Dummy parses mean poop. Real fights are what matter.

WAR "pays" for its DPS by losing all of its defenses while doing it.

WAR's "utility" is Storm Path. That. is. it. People are over exaggerating the f*** out of this buff. You can live without it. It is just Sacred Soil. A lot of the major important raid-wide AoE either 1) happens when the boss cannot be hit (Twintania ultimate after dives, T9 Megaflare, As1 Opressor Jumps) or 2) Can be healed through regardless. Also note that any good WAR will drop Storm Path out of its rotation to maintain higher DPS. Any "better" WAR will apply it for seconds before busters/raid DPS like how BRDs applied Rain of Death in 2.0 before the nerf.

PLD + DRK combos work JUST. AS. GOOD. Bring a NIN for the slashing debuff and the OT's TP. Bringing another job for a debuff is not new. It is the same as bringing a job for a buff (look BRD and MCN). PLD + WAR still needs monk's INT down if that's a concern. DRK + WAR will suffer more physical damage because no RoH and DRK is pure shite against physical damage.

If you think WAR "needs" equilibrium to sustain its TP outside of As2, you know jack about WAR and how it plays. Not to mention all fights have TP breaks in boss invulnerabilities or mechanic handling. There are very few exceptions (namely T8 and T11).

People cry about irrelevant things and call imbalance the second their job does not perform optimally in their preferred spot. PLD does not have to MT every fight. DRK does not and SHOULD NOT MT every fight. WAR does not need to be brought for every fight.

@Phoenicia

Both Paladin and Warrior have more utility than Dark when it comes to raids. Dark basically brings "dragon kick" to the fight. Monks use that for their rotations anyways and its not as crucial as reducing regular damage to most bosses. What you mentioned is true, but unless its a coordinated group that won't always happen where you'll have a ninja or a job that has the similar debuff in the group. What are the odds of getting that one dps/7 rather than a warrior/3 tanks. I'm not too well versed with dps jobs since I only tank so correct me if I'm wrong, but why should dps slow down their rotations (I know some moves that debuff bosses like dragon kick are in their dps rotations so I'm ignoring those) just to reapply a buff the tank HAS to do in order to maximize their damage anyways with storms eye and maim? The OT aren't going to do the same amount of damage a DPS is going to do and they hardly have any huge dps rotations to worry about so they have more leniency to keep applying the debuffs. We should be using storms path/storms eye anyways to make the raids life easier + what I've already mentioned with making our damage output better. Plus the debuffs give us stacks for fell cleave just the same as BB, and storms eye does around the same damage.

You seriously are ignoring the big picture for Storms eye.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Schadenfreude.

Tbh though, I am a little hesitant to think that balance issues should just be fixed by a round of buffs. That can lead to bad power creep down the road. A bit of both is probably the best way to handle it, with being very careful about how any nerfs are implemented.

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The policy insofar as tanks are concerned seems to always be buff not nerf. Look at how broken WAR was in 2.0, or alternately as Squenix saw it, how OP PLD was in 2.0. Instead of nerfing PLD, they buffed WAR for 2.1.

DPS get nerfed all the time but so far Squenix has been sensitive to how few tanks there are in FFXIV and have preferred to buff tanks instead of nerfing them. This works out dramatically in the favor of tanks in this game so I have no complaints about it. Let the DPS whine about their nerfs, if they don't like it they can play tank or healer for once.

WARs effectiveness is more dependent on the player. Aside from that not really anything. It's easily the most well designed tank in both it's gameplay and it's usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

You seriously are ignoring the big picture for Storms eye.

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You missed my point. Storm Path is over-f&#%ing exaggerated even if it "eases" healing.

If there is no WAR, NIN HAS to apply DE. What is the problem here? No body is talking about a bunch of PuGs here. In a PuG you pick up whatever tank/DPS/healers you get. In a static you are more selective and people ALWAYS choose WAR. Which is what I'm trying to say here.

You... do... NOT... have... to... have... WAR.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Stuff about buffs and nerfs

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To my knowledge the only DPS nerf cases were BRD (~5% less DPS) in 2.1 and NIN (lol1% less DPS) in 2.45. Holy got a nerf from 240 to 200 in 2.1 too.

MNK was never nerfed when it left everyone else in the dust. MNK only saw buffs. DRG only saw buffs. BLM only saw buffs. SMN saw a slight nerf when they lost Thunder in 2.1.

3.0 saw a nerf in Flare and Holy.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Here is Lucrezia's Ravana speed kill, and here is their parse. Both tanks were going FULL DPS. DRK "beat" WAR by 40 DPS. Dummy parses mean poop. Real fights are what matter.

WAR "pays" for its DPS by losing all of its defenses while doing it.

WAR's "utility" is Storm Path. That. is. it. People are over exaggerating the f*** out of this buff. You can live without it. It is just Sacred Soil. A lot of the major important raid-wide AoE either 1) happens when the boss cannot be hit (Twintania ultimate after dives, T9 Megaflare, As1 Opressor Jumps) or 2) Can be healed through regardless. Also note that any good WAR will drop Storm Path out of its rotation to maintain higher DPS. Any "better" WAR will apply it for seconds before busters/raid DPS like how BRDs applied Rain of Death in 2.0 before the nerf.

PLD + DRK combos work JUST. AS. GOOD. Bring a NIN for the slashing debuff and the OT's TP. Bringing another job for a debuff is not new. It is the same as bringing a job for a buff (look BRD and MCN). PLD + WAR still needs monk's INT down if that's a concern. DRK + WAR will suffer more physical damage because no RoH and DRK is pure shite against physical damage.

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Do you have any other parses? Because Ravana is a pretty terrible example, it's arguably the perfect DRK fight dps wise due to how the fight is set up. Not every fight is like that. I never even mentioned dummy parses. You also forgot to mention that, the WAR couldn't attack Ravana as much as the DRK. The shields, and since they were single tanking they couldn't risk vul stacks, the end of first liberation he had to back off while the other melee dps just ate the stack and kept attacking. The fact that he is still only 40dps behind despite losing several GCDs worth of attacks is pretty telling on it's own. The DRK also had the benefit of pretty much constant foes, as DP/SE are both effected by it.

What are you talking about? How do they lose their defense while dpsing? Are you talking about stance dancing? That's something both the other tanks would have to deal with as well if you were considering that part of their max dps.

If anyone is missing the point here it is you. You continue to say things like "BRING X CLASS TOO!” missing the point that WAR doesn't need any other class, that is part of why they are so strong. You don't ever need to build around them. There is no type of fight they cannot excel at. That's what this entire topic seems to be about. Are you being intentionally dense or are you just not understanding this basic idea?

I have to assume you don't actually raid if you think Storm's Path is not that good. It is hands down one of the best debuffs in the entire game. Every single major raid aoe you just listed come after the entire party is taking no damage and can just shield/buff up. The real use of Storm's Path is on the constant damage that is happening all the time - things where you don't get 10-20 seconds to buff up. It's not their only utility either - are you forgetting storm's eye? It's extra damage for both the other tank as well as good for NIN's if they are in the group.

PLD/DRK combos are most definitely not as good, especially in progression scenarios. I literally can't think of a fight in the entire game, from 2.0 to 3.0, where that combo would make more sense than one of them plus a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

People cry about irrelevant things and call imbalance the second their job does not perform optimally in their preferred spot. PLD does not have to MT every fight. DRK does not and SHOULD NOT MT every fight. WAR does not need to be brought for every fight.

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That is the entire crux of the issue. WAR is good MT AND OT on every single fight. There is not a single fight in this game where they do not excel. PLD and DRK have many scenarios where they don't. You yourself are saying this.

I guess the question is; why should WAR excel in every fight while DRK is only magic or PLD is only physical? The DPS thing is really a non-issue for me, if that is supposed to be the warrior's thing then so be it. But what exactly is the DRK and PLD's thing supposed to be? Just being in good in particular fights? It's not as versatile, and even in their preferred damage fights, it's not like WAR is bad at them. The way fights are designed around specific damage at certain times makes WAR's toolkit just perfect for any scenario.

It's the lack of access to Inner Beast(our Bread and Butter mitigation/Equivalence to Shadowskin and Rampart) which makes us more susceptible to damage during our DPS Stances.

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

Huge snip.

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On the Contrary, Ravana is a fight that favors burst. Burst is WAR's specialty. WAR losing a few GCDs is hardly a problem when the fight is supposed to favor them.

In Deliverance, WAR loses ALL its defenses (read: Inner Beast). DRK and PLD still have all their defensive CDs and only lose the tank stance EHP. In Deliverance WAR is just a sturdier DRG. Yes we can play with our other defensives, but those hardly work well on their without Inner Beast.

My point isn't that WAR needs another class. Yes WAR synergies with NIN and the other tanks are AMAZING. But Storm Eye debuff is not "unique".

I have been WAR main since 2.0 and I'm considering going back to it. I main tanked and off tanked EVERY fight in my statics' progression with the exception of T9 (where we went solo tank and I was SMN) and I have a few Phoenix server firsts (mainly primals) and seconds (T12 & T13) under my belt. So your accusation of me not raiding is irrelevant.

Storm Path IS SO OVERRATED and it is the ONLY WAR-exclusive benefit. I have always dropped it the second my healers got accustomed to boss rotations. Exception was in T13 because that fight's damage was ridiculously high. where I applied SP before Mega/Giga Flare and then let it drop for the rest of the fight. When my group got geared I dropped SP entirely. No other fight in the game is so highly tuned. In my Savage SCoB attempts I was a PLD.

PLD/DRK combos lose ONLY SP. Bringing a NIN is a raid DPS benefit since it does more DPS than MNK. Raid DPS wise, they are probably better than PLD/WAR with a monk and hardly behind DRK/WAR with NIN/DRG.

I'm not denying that WAR is excellent and versatile. WAR is the best designed tank of the three. I'm just saying it's not so far ahead of the other tanks.

If you read my other posts, you will see that WAR and PLD are close in mitigation. PLD is NOT "only physical". PLD and WAR do NOT suck at magic fights either. It's just DRK is stupid good against magical damage. Also notice that DRK is pure shite in physical fights. Check my post in page 9 if you wanna see the numbers again.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I'm not denying that WAR is excellent and versatile. WAR is the best designed tank of the three. I'm just saying it's not so far ahead of the other tanks.

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Problem is, it IS ahead, even by "not so far".

Back when PLD was only 1-2-3n you could argue that WAR was far more difficult to play. Now that PLD has evolved and that DRK came up with its MP management, WAR is not that much more complicated to play.

It's not like DRK's damage is constant/sustained either though? PLD is really the only one where a substantial part of their damage is sustained (Sword Oath). Much of DRK's damage is frontloaded within a small period of time, it's just instead of a single move like WAR it's several oGCDs close together. Ravana heavily favors DRK just like it does WAR. Losing those GCDs definitely matters.

IB isn't WAR's only cooldown though, they are still pretty beefy even in deliverance. It's also far far easier to smoothly transition between DPS/tank stances on WAR than DRK/PLD, allowing you to DPS much more before changing is needed. If you are trying to argue WAR's weakness is that it's dps stance can't IB, I just don't understand how that is an exclusive weakness to them. At the very least it is not a weakness that can preclude their participation in either tanking role in any fight - the PLD/DRK weakness very well can. Or at the very least make them far less desirable.

I know it's not your point, rather it's my point that DRK actually needs other classes just to be on the same level that WAR is by itself. It's like, if you gave SMN's an ability that increased magic damage taken, and BLM were inferior dps wise unless they had this buff. Is it not a bit dishonest to claim they have equal dps when the only way that is possible is you have that other class with you to begin with? Why the extra work? (DRK's class design is filled with situations like this, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.)

The attack on your credibility was unnecessary and I apologize, but I just can't understand why you are downplaying Storm's Path to such a degree. If you truly feel it is not that much of a deal breaker, that it's not that great utility wise, then you must not think any utility in the game is that great. It really is one of the best skills out there. It's literally better than both PLD and DRK's debuffs combined!

As for the rest of your reply, it sounds like you are more less agreeing with the main topic. WAR has no real comparative weakness to PLD/DRK. Even if PLD doesn't suffer to the degree in magic that DRK does in physical, they still lose a large portion of their benefits. The problem is neither of them really gain much for these sacrifices. The fact that WAR is so versatile and can fit in any situation is what the whole argument is about, that DRK/PLD should be adjusted so they can be versatile as well. It's not, as you say, "people cry about irrelevant things and call imbalance the second their job does not perform optimally in their preferred spot." - it's more like people call imbalance because there is no spot where WAR can't play optimally. That is the imbalance, that is why WAR is ahead of them. That essentially DRK/PLD are just not as well designed. The imbalance does not need to be massive for one to exist.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Problem is, it IS ahead, even by "not so far".

Back when PLD was only 1-2-3n you could argue that WAR was far more difficult to play. Now that PLD has evolved and that DRK came up with its MP management, WAR is not that much more complicated to play.

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So PLD "evolved" to occasionally apply Goring Blade while STILL maintaining the core of "press 1 button to survive x seconds". PLD is still by far the easiest class to play In the entire game.

WAR is "barely" ahead of the other tanks by design. WAR pays the price of relative mechanical complexity. WAR is "not that much more" complicated to play, but it is still "more". (hear this line somewhere before? lol)

Reskinned PLD-- err, DRK, MP management is a joke. It's literally use a Siphon Strike combo, which also happens to be your higher damage combo, to pump Dark Arts for more.... damage. There is no real complexity in its decision tree that throws you off balance. Hint: a DRK Pressing 1, 2, 3 (Power Slash combo) and popping CDs to mitigate damage does the exact same function as a slightly gimped PLD.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

In Deliverance, WAR loses ALL its defenses (read: Inner Beast).

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'ALL of their defenses'

'Inner Beast'

9/10 made me chuckle. A good War will always know when they'll need to Inner Beast. Wars have the benefit of resource-less stance dancing on just a 10 second cooldown. And on top of that, any stacks are converted to the other stance.

War doesn't lose any more mitigation than a Drk or a Pld does when stance dancing, because Inner Beast is COMPLETELY situational. There is NEVER a time you should Inner Beast over a Fell Cleave unless a tank buster is coming in, or you're taking a lot of damage anyway, which if you are, you'd want to be in your tanking stance anyway.

If Fell Cleave were usable under Defiance, you'd STILL be Fell Cleaving instead of using Inner Beast if you don't need it. It's no different than any other mitigation CD, only difference is it has the shortest CD of them all.

And lets not just act like Wars don't have other CD's either.

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

Snip.

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While DRK frontloads its DPS with oGCDs, their DPS graph is far, and I mean way far, more linear than that of WAR. Ravana favors WAR far more than DRK. And the GCDs that the WAR lost in that fight can be counted with your fingers at most and are irrelevant especially with RNG factors existing like crit%. And let's say WAR didn't lose those GCDs, it only shows that DRK is on par with WAR. What is +/- 3% with human error and RNG?

There is not a single buff/debuff in this game that is a deal breaker on its own. It is the buffs of the entire raid that make them function so well. That is why I undermine Storm Path on its own.

About Storm Eye. SOMEONE has to provide the debuff. WAR having it doesn't break things. NIN wasn't in the game so WAR had to have it. What do you suggest here? Remove it from WAR since NIN has it?

BRD and MCN aren't crying about DRG being the far superior DPS class because it provides the piercing debuff while still being ~300 DPS ahead of them and providing a raid-wide crit buff. The fact that Storm Eye is NOT unique to WAR (NIN has the exact debuff) is what I am pointing out here.

WAR losing the cornerstone, the backbone, the bread-and-butter of their mitigation in Deliverance and Fell Cleaves is a weakness that is "unique" to WAR. WAR also unnecessarily pops defensives to add abandon for triple Fell Cleaves to push more DPS. Pushing their defense loss even further. Also going straight from Deliverance to Defiance doesn't directly give you the benefits of defiance. You do not "gain" 25% current HP (you need a heal) and if you blew Abandon beforehand, you won't have IB. PLD/DRK do not pay such a price. Deliverance/Defiance fluid transition is hardly there to make up for such. That is what I meant by WAR losing far more defense in Deliverance than the other tanks.

PLD and DRK ONLY lose advantage as MTs in a fight that is out of their field. However they can just go OT and do relative DPS to WAR. In a PLD/DRK combo situation or if you have WAR with one of the two that "can't switch" to the other, just switch out who MTs and who OTs and all those "disadvantages" are hardly relevant.

Man, I don't know how many times we have to go over this. It's not that WAR shouldn't have the debuff, it's that they have a huge advantage because they have it. That advantage isn't even an issue by itself, it's just that on top of all the other advantages they have (with no real disadvantage) an imbalance is created. It's an issue because PLD/DRK naturally NEED another class in their group before they can equal WAR. A WAR never needs anyone.

I mean, even with the weakness you claim they have with deliverance, they can still tank just fine in it. The other cooldowns they have still makes them sturdy. You didn't really comment on the other aspect of that, a DRK/PLD's weaknesses can prevent them from being ideal depending on the fight. The WAR is never not ideal. Even with the supposed weakness, they still have the best MT dps, and they still (when smartly played) have incredibly good mitigation. A DRK misusing MP for damage can lose a lot of their magic mitigation or mitigation in general (not having enough to switch back to Grit). A well played DRK won't run into these issues, but a well played WAR won't be using all of their stack building cooldowns for DPS if they need them later. You are basically saying WAR's weakness is that they can be played badly. So can DRK, hell so can PLD believe it or not. That's not a real weakness.

And your final line hilariously just further proves the point I'm trying to make. WAR is good in every single situation, PLD/DRK have situations where they are clearly inferior. That is the imbalance. That is the entire argument.

I'm sorry I cant take this person seriously anymore and I just got here.. lol

http://i.imgur.com/pxO4NXu.gif

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

Man, I don't know how many times we have to go over this. It's not that WAR shouldn't have the debuff, it's that they have a huge advantage because they have it. That advantage isn't even an issue by itself, it's just that on top of all the other advantages they have (with no real disadvantage) an imbalance is created. It's an issue because PLD/DRK naturally NEED another class in their group before they can equal WAR. A WAR never needs anyone.

I mean, even with the weakness you claim they have with deliverance, they can still tank just fine in it. The other cooldowns they have still makes them sturdy. You didn't really comment on the other aspect of that, a DRK/PLD's weaknesses can prevent them from being ideal depending on the fight. The WAR is never not ideal. Even with the supposed weakness, they still have the best MT dps, and they still (when smartly played) have incredibly good mitigation. A DRK misusing MP for damage can lose a lot of their magic mitigation or mitigation in general (not having enough to switch back to Grit). A well played DRK won't run into these issues, but a well played WAR won't be using all of their stack building cooldowns for DPS if they need them later. You are basically saying WAR's weakness is that they can be played badly. So can DRK, hell so can PLD believe it or not. That's not a real weakness.

And your final line hilariously just further proves the point I'm trying to make. WAR is good in every single situation, PLD/DRK have situations where they are clearly inferior. That is the imbalance. That is the entire argument.

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Sounds like your argument is that PLD/DRK should be balanced around solo play. You in a long winded way are complaining that WAR doesn't need anyone to be effective, when this is a discussion all about group content.

PLD and DRK needing someone isn't imbalance. Many classes shine with specific others. Its classes having differences.

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Originally Posted by Tila

Sounds like your argument is that PLD/DRK should be balanced around solo play. You in a long winded way are complaining that WAR doesn't need anyone to be effective, when this is a discussion all about group content.

PLD and DRK needing someone isn't imbalance. Many classes shine with specific others. Its classes having differences.

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Needing someone is an imbalance when you need someone just to be equal to someone who needs no one (try saying that ten times fast). What other jobs suffer from that? The disembowel argument is poor, because the only competition BRD/MCH have is each other. One is not better than the other without the DRG buff. It's going to be about the same.

The complaint is that WAR is good at everything, bad at nothing, and needs no support to be good at what it is good at. If that is supposed to be class differences, you are basically saying being naturally superior is WAR's difference. Ideally differences should be what they bring to the group, not the basic aspects of the class being handicapped unless you bring another.

I should also say again that I am fine with WAR being the best DPS tank, it's just that PLD/DRK should get something universal to make up for the fact that they lose that damage.

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

Needing someone is an imbalance when you need someone just to be equal to someone who needs no one (try saying that ten times fast). What other jobs suffer from that? The disembowel argument is poor, because the only competition BRD/MCH have is each other. One is not better than the other without the DRG buff. It's going to be about the same.

The complaint is that WAR is good at everything, bad at nothing, and needs no support to be good at what it is good at. If that is supposed to be class differences, you are basically saying being naturally superior is WAR's difference. Ideally differences should be what they bring to the group, not the basic aspects of the class being handicapped unless you bring another.

I should also say again that I am fine with WAR being the best DPS tank, it's just that PLD/DRK should get something universal to make up for the fact that they lose that damage.

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Well DRK doesnt, their damage is fine in comparison even if their DPS rotation is boring as sin. At most I say that reprisal needs to be changed to be a simple cooldown based ability: essentially a limited time double storms path that you use when you need. I feel that'd keep it distinct enough from Warrior and Storms Path.

PLD has the same issue as BRD had. They are partly a support, and a very safe class to play (like how BRD was the mobile dps with no real rotation) and pay for what they can do with something that isn't exactly wholly in the meta. The only way to fix Paladin is to redesign. If they get buffed with what they have they'll end up being over done. That's the real core of the PLD issue. The complaints aimed at them mirror the old BRD ones.

The game can't be based around each class being a self contained bastion that doesn't need others. Some can be like that, but if they all are then we get to homogenization, and no one wants that. Its a class based game, many aspects will be based around having other classes.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR is "not that much more" complicated to play, but it is still "more". (hear this line somewhere before? lol)

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Well, WAR is just switching between two combos over and over, while popping Inner Beast exatcly when you want.
In fact, I don't see what makes WAR more complicated than PLD now.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

It's literally use a Siphon Strike combo, which also happens to be your higher damage combo, to pump Dark Arts for more.... damage. There is no real complexity in its decision tree that throws you off balance.

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If that's what DRK is for you, you obviously don't push it very far.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Hint: a DRK Pressing 1, 2, 3 (Power Slash combo) and popping CDs to mitigate damage does the exact same function as a slightly gimped PLD.

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Hint : A WAR pressing 1, 2, 3 (Butcher's Block combo) and keeping Wrath stacks at full for popping Inner Beast (With or without Vengeance) to mitigate damage does the same function as a not at all gimped PLD.

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Originally Posted by Tila

The game can't be based around each class being a self contained bastion that doesn't need others. Some can be like that, but if they all are then we get to homogenization, and no one wants that. Its a class based game, many aspects will be based around having other classes.

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Homogenization isn't necessarily evil, WAR is only as good as it is because they homogenized it massively with PLD in 2.1. Sometimes being unique doesn't work in the overall balance.

I think NIN is perfect model to fix DRK/PLD. They do less damage than MNK/DRG but bring excellent utility. WAR actually manages to have it all right now; great mitigation, damage, and best tank utility.