How do you deal with sluggish tanks?

netflix. srsly. parks on rec goooooo!

If I'm on my whm I'll just give him a regen then start soloing the next group.

Don't worry sensitive tanks, I'm not pulling extra groups to you, or forcing you to tank them. I'm soloing them. Because it's dungeon trash. Because I can actually do that. Because regen is enough to heal you through the pittance that you pulled, so you don't need me there anymore. I may as well go do something else, like solo the next group. If you don't wanna feel pressured to pick up the extra group, then don't; I've got it covered.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

If I'm on my whm I'll just give him a regen then start soloing the next group.

Don't worry sensitive tanks, I'm not pulling extra groups to you, or forcing you to tank them. I'm soloing them. Because it's dungeon trash. Because I can actually do that. Because regen is enough to heal you through the pittance that you pulled, so you don't need me there anymore. I may as well go do something else, like solo the next group. If you don't wanna feel pressured to pick up the extra group, then don't; I've got it covered.

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If you've stated that you'd prefer big pulls at the beginning and the rest of the party agrees then I would say your in the right.

If your just doing it without communicating, then i'm fine with not noticing the pull.

Communications solves 99% of these problems people. A good attitude also helps.

I got Tam Tara last night on SCH and I told the paladin to pull as much as he wanted. It's Tam Tara. I had Selene out. We could've had a beast run.

He said he wasn't comfortable with big pulls bc he was new to tanking. So I let Selene take the wheel and dps'd the shit out of everything. It was still reasonably quick, just not the beast run I was hoping for.

If the tank isn't comfortable with big, fast pulls, just...dps. it'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

If you've stated that you'd prefer big pulls at the beginning and the rest of the party agrees then I would say your in the right.

If your just doing it without communicating, then i'm fine with not noticing the pull.

Communications solves 99% of these problems people. A good attitude also helps.

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I tend to communicate. And the response tends to be " ".

If you don't wanna notice the pull that's fine. I consider it a bonus if the tank jumps in. I only pull extra if I know I can handle it.

It's not meant to be a passive agressive insult to the tank. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

I tend to communicate. And the response tends to be " ".

If you don't wanna notice the pull that's fine. I consider it a bonus if the tank jumps in. I only pull extra if I know I can handle it.

It's not meant to be a passive agressive insult to the tank. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Well if the tank has the inability to communicate then that's fine too.

Communication is a 2 way street for everyone. Including us tanks.

while i may not like shadewalker... sluggish tanks is where it shines

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I got Tam Tara last night on SCH and I told the paladin to pull as much as he wanted. It's Tam Tara. I had Selene out. We could've had a beast run.

He said he wasn't comfortable with big pulls bc he was new to tanking. So I let Selene take the wheel and dps'd the shit out of everything. It was still reasonably quick, just not the beast run I was hoping for.

If the tank isn't comfortable with big, fast pulls, just...dps. it'll be fine.

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To be fair, no one has much in the way of aoe skills for tam tara. I think its faster to small pull and allow the healer to dps.

My personal experience is that the healer / DPS really set the pace for the dungeon.

As a tank, sure I go first ... but its upto them to do the majority of the actual killing of crap. In an Ideal world that is. I've found with DF that alot of the time I'll out DPS them (as a paladin sadly) and so the pace of the dungeon is really out of my control. Yes I'll pull the next pack right away (Honestly the ONLY thing I look at is healer MP, healer has 60%+ I'm good to pull) but when it takes 2mins+ to kill a pack of mobs ... well I cant be held accountable for that.

To be fair, its *very* rare that I use RoH combo on a paladin. For most run's I wont use it at all. DPS are just not even in the ballpark of pulling threat from me. Generally any pack of 5+ Mobs I'll be in Shield Oath for (Although I do use full str right side) and bosses I'll start and stay in Sword Oath for. Thats not saying *all* the DPS I get are wank .. just today I had a Bard unload on a fractal boss and snag aggro from me, awesome !!! A RoH combo and we were good. That said on the other bosses I did weave in a couple of RoH combos (Esp that stupid Mino since I move from his 360 swing) and we were golden. When I get great (Hell even good) DPS a dungeon run is fast. When the DPS is slacking it takes longer, hell theres only so much I can do as far as DPS goes /shrug.

Like other tanks here, I take the first pull as a guage to how many I should be pulling from there on. So if you slack on the first pull, expect me to pull light from then on.

People have mentioned Trees and Bees, generally I pull all of them, I do pay attention though and Hallowed / CD as required. I have to say *most* DPS are really good and focus down the Bees correctly, then I'll just drag the tree up the hill and kill it with the 2 totems and Vanu up there. Its rare that DPS dont kill bees first ... CD's will carry you through it though.

I've been pleased to see more and more Healers doing decent DPS now though, thats speeding runs up. Not all Healers DPS and its not something I *expect* of healers, Just really nice to see them laying in some hurt on pulls, makes me feel good about my CD usage that they are comfortable enough to CS and throw out some DPS between heals.

Bottom line though, tanks pull and hold hate, do what DPS we can. The overall *pace* or *speed* of a dungeon comes down to how fast crap dies .. and thats all about DPS. DPS players, Healers doing DPS and tanks pushing as much DPS as poss. When you get a group that does that its a fast run, for each part missing the run slows more and more. So in conclusion .. fast runs are not just about the tank, its a group effort.

And if a tank stops and stands infront of a boss ask him why if it bugs you so much. I know I did it yesterday, Healer was great and throwing out a ton of DPS on trash, mana management may not have been his strong suit though, so we hit the boss with him at 2K mana, so I waited until 9K (About 70%) before I pulled. No way was I irritated at the healer though, the 15s we had to wait was easy made up on the kill times from his added DPS on trash /shrug.

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Originally Posted by Akei

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Your opinion, but if you get, lets say, a paladin, a black mage, a summoner, and a scholar, and the tank decides to pull 3 mobs at a time, its certainly the tank setting the pace. The reason tanks set the pace is because it is frowned upon for a DPS to pull extra mobs when the tank has stopped. Yes, the damage dealers and healer most certainly effect the speed, but the pace and the speed are two different things. The pace is dictated solely by how the tank pulls, and the speed is what the rest of the party influences. For the example I provided above, its almost guaranteed that the completion speed would benefit from a faster pace, set by the tank by the pull size, because the group has several high potency AoE jobs. The thread is about dealing with sluggish tanks, and how to deal with their sluggish paces when the group is very capable of handling a quick pace.

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Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

Your opinion, ....

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Well I did say in my post that I, like most tanks, will use the first pull as a measure of what the group can handle. Also lets be fair, the way dungeons are structured your generally looking at 2-3 *pulls* between each boss due to gating. Neverreap - First island is generally 1 pull. Thats my guage. Slow kill I'll split the second island into 2 pulls, good rate next island is a single pull etc. I'm not arguing that there are not tanks out there that try to split pulls as small as possible. Hell I read a thread the other day about a tank who single pulled the trash in Fractal /boggle.

For a tank to pull that small there really has to be a reason. Not comfortable with the instance. Not comfortable on the class. Dubious of other party members (Healer / DPS) Communication is key here. Ask the tank why they are pulling light. If they have a reasonable answer, *I'm new here* you can either deal with it and talk to them about the pace or leave. As I said in my post, Healers who DPS I love, but I never expect it going into a DF. Unfortunatly you will get new tanks or fearful tanks in DF. I'm just saying that with an experienced tank, pace is a group effort and not something a tank alone can control. I've been in many DF groups that run 20-25 mins and just muttered to myself about DPS not pushing hard enough. Its DF though you take your lumps. I'll pull as fast as the group can handle, I love sub-20 min clears. However in DF I generally find my clear time is around the 22 min mark .. and the DPS run sub 800 over all DPS numbers, which is tragic with the amount of AoE that can be done on trash. (Yes I'm talking about SMN and BLM too here :( )


Your point seems to be that in a capable group that's pushing high DPS and killing fast, the tank can hold up progress by adding wait time between packs. Yup that can happen, probably because of one of the reasons I've covered, maby the tank is new and is'ent confident with the instance and wants X CD up before he pulls again. There's alot of reasons a tank would be slow.

Bottom line, if the tank is waiting between packs the best way to deal with that is to talk to him/her. Pulling ahead wont work for a tank who's already on edge because they are new. Tanks tend to get alot of heat when they mess up, it tends to make new tanks alot more cautious, talk to them, encourage them to push harder and reassure them that your not gonna go apeshit if there is a problem and a wipe. Hell its how tanks get better, some personality types wont deal well with you pushing them without at least some encouragement and reassurance that a death / wipe is not the end of the world.

I've played tanks since DAOC back in 2004 (I was a Druid in EQ O_o) so I'm comfortable with the role, and I tend to join games with friends, friends who dont mind my pushing to limits and getting them killed a fair bit to learn those limits. Not everyone is as lucky and I would imagine that leveling a tank through DF alone with random people all the time can be very daunting for newer players. A bit of communication and compassion goes along way to ease the tank queue and get more tanks in there.

So *how do you deal with sluggish tanks* .... HELP THEM. (Yes I do queue as DPS at times, and I do practice what I preach ... I help them !!)

"Hey, if both the tank and healer feel comfortable with it, could we try bigger pulls?"

Works 95% of the time for me.

You deal with sluggish tanks by playing one yourself - that way you are also helping to decrease queue times.

For the "bigger pulls", both on my healer and tank, I do not like the idea of bigger pulls - in PUGs. Why should one risk wipe, when you can have nice smooth run and let healer dps without getting heart attack? Now, I do suck it up, if the healer asks, even if its my first run of the instance, but in my opinion it isn't worth the stress. Tank's job is to tank without losing enmity, which can get quite difficult just by gear/level difference alone, without adding "bigger" pulls on the list.

I just pull extra garbage if they won't. I mean what's he gonna do? Tank it?

At this point, whether youre new or not, youve dealt with level 50 dungeons and large trash pulls, and you should most certainly know your job, so I cant imagine anyone actually using "im new" as an excuse to slow the pace for three people who are capable, but thats just my opinion. all those large pulls are 100% handleable at lower ilvls, and no tank that knows their job will lose aggro. in a game like WoW, there are plenty of other incentives for doing those dungeons to justify slower runs, but in a game like ffxiv, where the ONLY reason people queue is to get their tomes asap and leave, there isnt enough incentive for people to want to spend 10 extra minutes for a tank that wanted to move at a turtle-esque pace. Personally if im not happy with the tanks pace, ill just flat out leave without saying a word because this game is not rewarding enough for me to spend that much extra time in those places because one person is uncomfortable with a quick pace. we're nearly 5 (i think?) months into the expac, and people have done the experts hundred and hundreds of times, to the point where theyre sick of it. The only way people are going to WANT to help new tanks like that is for more rewards, and as is, a few extra tomes of law, we have nothing to spend them on, and for eso, we were going to cap easily by doing our roullete anyway, nobody wants to deal with the slow tank.

i dont mind new tanks. i tank myself sometimes, and i understand that its sometimes daunting and intimidating, but its just about efficiency, and id rather just leave, log out, and go spend some time doing something i enjoy rather than running a dungeon i dont really wanna do and spending extra time in it because the tank didnt feel comfortable with month old content that is extremely easy, i mean really. these new experts are brain meltingly boring, with boring boss mechanics and artificial gating to stop things from turning into 2.0 WP. they arent rewarding enough or fun enough to want to crawl through them

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Originally Posted by Disc

I just pull extra garbage if they won't. I mean what's he gonna do? Tank it?

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You're probably going to die if you do it on a party with me healing and will get kicked afterwards. DPS are quite dispendable, y'know.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

You're probably going to die if you do it on a party with me healing and will get kicked afterwards. DPS are quite dispendable, y'know.

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Everyone's pretty expendable. Who's harder to replace is a pretty weak reason to kick or not kick someone though.

Kinda tired of the tanks-and-healers-call-the-shots-because-q-times rhetoric. If the only way you can justify your importance is because you're better than an empty spot, then you can try harder.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

You're probably going to die if you do it on a party with me healing and will get kicked afterwards. DPS are quite dispendable, y'know.

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And that should bother me why? I dodge a bad party & lockout, looking at ~5 minutes for my next queue. Meanwhile you get a weaker DPS who probably doesn't even have access to raid gear.

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Originally Posted by Disc

And that should bother me why? I dodge a bad party & lockout, looking at ~5 minutes for my next queue. Meanwhile you get a weaker DPS who probably doesn't even have access to raid gear.

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It seems like kicking you makes everybody happy then. Sluggish tanks prefer dps that are able to follow numbers and without the raid gear their job gets even easier. Win-win situation.

While we are 5 mo's into the expansion, that does not mean there are not new players in dungeons. New to class or new to that dungeon. The whole *We're x months into this everyone should know it* is not valid IMO b/c there are ALWAYS new people. A little bit of compassion goes along way. In full disclosure I do play a DPS daily in dungeon runs as well as my tank, I play my wifes SMN for her daily ESO's b/c shes tired of the game and taking a break atm, its 1 dungeon a day but I do come across all types of tank and I encourage and help where I can. I've been asked to *reign in* DPS on her on more than one occasion with a new tank and sure the run took a little longer but whats 5 mins in the long run? (Her SMN is around 198ilevel) Never did I consider just bailing b/c the tank was a little slow.

In the same vein I've yet to kick a DPS when I am tanking. I've had some pretty terrible DPS (Sub 300) but as long as they are moving and trying I'm fine with that. Do I sigh a little b/c the run takes longer? Sure. If I see them using terrible rotations (BLM FI x5 B1 x5 rotation?) I'll try to throw out some advice as we move along, if its taken great, they ignore me fine ... I'm outta here in 20 mins anyway. (I have sat at the end of a lower level dungeon before talking to another player on more than one occasion helping them understand rotation, they engaged in conversation and asked for help though, ask and I'm willing to chat. Other than that I'll just try to throw a few pointers at them as we run)

If others run ahead and pull .. I'll just pick that crap up and tank it. Like I care. I do agree with some posters here who feel that some people take a holier than thou attitude and try to *teach lessons* by letting people die. I dont get that crap .. slow down the run more? Why? Tbh its very seldom an issue since I move at a quick pace and generally pull large. If I'm sat waiting at a boss for a healer to regain a little mana and the DPS pulls, I'll tank it, point out why I was waiting and let the healer take it up with the DPS.

While I disagree with the attitude that everyone should know this crap by now, I do agree that we want to get through it as quickly and painlessly as possible. In that respect helping people along, not waiting for replacements (kicking people) and not arguing pointless crap (You pulled you tank) would be the best way to achieve that IMO.

<Saying all that I'm not opposed to kicking trolls / disruptive players, if your *trying* no matter how badly, I will never kick you from a DF dungeon>

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Originally Posted by Archaell

It seems like kicking you makes everybody happy then. Sluggish tanks prefer dps that are able to follow numbers and without the raid gear their job gets even easier. Win-win situation.

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In pulls of 4+ DPS should be using AoE attacks, which will result in lower enmity generated on every mob per GCD. The large majority of pulls from Vault and onward will force you to take 4 or more enemies at a minimum. If a tank is still numbering at that point they've got much bigger issues than a DPS slapping dragons or puks 5 yalms out. Mediocrity should not be celebrated.

If you want things to go faster. Pull.

I'll let you tank if you want.

A thread for people who haven't tanked wondering what tanks are thinking.

Hmm, I don't ever remember getting a "speed of completion" bonus if I finish a dungeon in 11.5 minutes. Tomes are tomes.

Dps can pull all they want doesn't bother me a bit. Hope their cd's keep them alive with a single cure1.

I love all these "fine i'll let you tank!" comments as though a dps can't tank a small group. If you're pulling small groups as a tank then you're a luxury, the amount of healing it takes is negligible. Tanks are only necessary if they're doing big pulls; you lose a lot of your leverage to take groups hostage if you're doing small pulls.

Doesn't condone people being rude, but at the same time, you shouldn't respond rudely. If the point of contention is small pulls anyways, then you don't really have any cards to play unless the healer backs you up.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

A thread for people who haven't tanked wondering what tanks are thinking.

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I have 2 tanks at 60 and I'm wondering what other tanks are thinking, pausing before each boss like they're contemplating the meaning of life or something.

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Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

while i may not like shadewalker... sluggish tanks is where it shines

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Pull that on me and you're liable to end up with a dead tank. I tend to do a test pull at the start of a dungeon. After that, if I'm doing smaller pulls there's probably a reason.

--Erim Nelhah

How to deal with small pulls? Single target rotation, kill everything as fast as possible so we can move on to the next pack. Just because the tank is pulling small doesn't mean I get to slack off on my own job of killing mobs as fast as I can.

I don't tank, but I'm healer and DPS and whatever role I assume, I try to do teamwork.
The one to pull is the tank. If you're not the tank and you pull, I will backpedal and stay out of aggro range - as both healer or DPS.

I don't understand those ADHD-DDs who ask for "faster, bigger", when their pitiful AOEs will by no means lead to faster completion rates, only stress.
In a party with, say, 2 summoners, I can totally see chainpulls of large groups, because summoners don't lack mana and their AOEs actually do damage and don't just look nice.

With a scholar healer, MP aren't the issue, but I'd watch out for the astro in my party - I thought that's just common sense.

When people speak of large amounts of time, I hope they double check their watch, because what they perceive as long and the time that actually passed can be totally different things. 10 second can feel like an eternity when your procs run out, but what gives? Procs will happen again. Wipes will make your procs disappear, too, plus cause your party to stand around even longer after the run back to the scene, because buffs etc have to be redone.

So, yeah, if you're not the tank - solo it. If you kick me, fine, I'll just re-queue. It's not like you'd hurt my feelings or something ^^

I am completely the opposite, as soon as I step into the boss room I am pulling unless a cutscene plays, and the group requires a few seconds to step into the boss room.

My biggest annoyance is doing 24 player instances and the tanks taking forever to pull. We are talking about up to a minute. I might just stick to my tank this time around in those even though the queues are more awful.

I leveled up my own damn tank, now I main it.

As a healer, what I hate most is a tank in minimum ilvl with no sense of using CDs that immediately pulls all they can.. Especially if dps aren't aoe oriented and/or are lowly geared as well. Pull for your comfort/party. >:|

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Originally Posted by raela

As a healer, what I hate most is a tank in minimum ilvl with no sense of using CDs that immediately pulls all they can.. Especially if dps aren't aoe oriented and/or are lowly geared as well. Pull for your comfort/party. >:|

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And on top of that in full strength gear, while turning off their tank stance to make the run as fast as possible through their awesome DPS and inevitable death. There is too much big pulling in the game imo, and as result less experienced dps-went-tank players think it's the only way, without learning their CDs and enmity management properly on smaller pulls first.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

And on top of that in full strength gear, while turning off their tank stance to make the run as fast as possible through their awesome DPS and inevitable death. There is too much big pulling in the game imo, and as result less experienced dps-went-tank players think it's the only way, without learning their CDs and enmity management properly on smaller pulls first.

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A good tank in full str / dps stance is actually my favorite.. Speedy fun runs with little danger. I like "meat grinder" style runs and will dps alongside everyone. A good tank lets me mainly heal via fairy. Still though, if there is any sort of barrier to that run, I'd much rather have a series of smaller pulls - then I'll just stick to cleric stance (whereas in larger ones, I'll swap out to assist my fairy once shadow flare and maybe dots are out).

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Originally Posted by Archaell

And on top of that in full strength gear, while turning off their tank stance to make the run as fast as possible through their awesome DPS and inevitable death. There is too much big pulling in the game imo, and as result less experienced dps-went-tank players think it's the only way, without learning their CDs and enmity management properly on smaller pulls first.

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While I agree that they shouldn't be doing this there is a big disconnect in the game with defensive cooldowns. There is almost zero incentive to use a defensive cooldown on any small pull. Alot of tanks aren't learning to use them because they simply aren't necessary. I find when I heal that if a tank is doing small pulls that I actively have to look to even see if they are using cooldowns at all. The difference in using them on small pulls is so miniscule that it's hardly noticeable.

Now I'm in no way endorsing minimum ilvl tanks go and pull a huge chunk of mobs, but they should be pulling more than one group at a time. This would make the use of defensive cooldowns more apparent and obvious for both the healer and the tank. By putting the tank in a situation where they need those cooldown's to stay alive they will learn faster how to rotate them and use them effectively to keep the party going smoothly. This is on the whole party though to notice these trends and tailor the run to it.

It's why we have a keyboard and a chat box.

That being said... scrubs will be scrubs. If they don't wanna learn then that is a whole different matter.

Funny thing is with some tanks I see them blow 2 or 3 Cooldowns when they hit 20% life, always gives me a chuckle and I pity the healers in those runs. 20% is TOO LATE to start blowing CDs in this game. I guess it comes from playing other games were tanks have some almighty CDs on long reuse timers that are more *save my ass* type skills rather than *mitigate the dmg* type CDs we have here. (Dont get me wrong, HG, Holm etc are save my ass CDs .... Rampart / foresight / etc are not)

I've seen many a run where tanks did'ent use CD's at all, its alot better now, with HW release DRK's were the top offenders for this. I still catch it even now though, mostly b/c I main tanks I guess and I'm aware of the ability effects, so I can see right away when a tank is using CDs and when they are not. Thankfully I only run as Tank or DPS (Wifes character) so I dont have to heal those tanks.

Healers /pat /comfort

I'm so sorry you have to deal with that !!!

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Originally Posted by Akei

I pity the healers in those runs

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If a tank's hitting 20% health frequently, the healer isn't doing their job.

I pity the poor tanks who have to deal with terrible healers who think their job is to DPS until the tank is within an inch of dying before using Benediction.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I pity the poor tanks who have to deal with terrible healers who think their job is to DPS until the tank is within an inch of dying before using Benediction.

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your bait is getting better

I pity myself when I have to DF my way through grinding ESO and I out DPS my DPS while using my WAR.

A slow tank might be mildly annoying but a crew of horrible DPS who are parsing in the 300 DPS range and dragging out my grind is way worse.

But then again... Half second ques are nice :)

I know exactly where you're coming from OP, when I'm on BLM and I have 10 seconds left on enochain so I want the tank to hurry up and pull the next set so I can refresh it and they stop to stoneskin themselves... It makes me want to cast my blizzard 4 on THEM!

I'm a main PLD but I have also levelled DRG and BLM so I know exactly how annoying it is to have needless downtime, unless there's an actual reason to stop I'll keep going to make sure everyone can keep their buffs up. Unfortunately not every tank plays dps as well and don't understand that every second they sit there doing nothing is breaking your rotation.