BRD/MCH look here

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Not as well as you think. The devs even threw in a 15sec cool down on GB when you turn it on or off. So stance dance is out of the question especially during your opener and during buff rotations. And with that cast time it throws a wrench in the way brds use to play. That's like adding cast times to drg and mnk it just wont fit.

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What the....look if you were EVER trying to stance dance before this patch on BRD at intervals of 15 seconds, then i can understand why people are complaining about crappy DPS.

It throws a wrench in your playstyle if you're too stiff to learn a new trick, which is really all you're doing. I barely even notice my cast times anymore, it simply isn't that big a deal. In the end it really just comes down to players sucking and refusing to get better. If you were good at 2.0 bard and refuse to get good at 3.0 bard's mechanics, then you are just choosing to suck.

You ask for competitive DPS, to hang with the melees and casters, yet when they actually provide an avenue to make bridging that distance a bit less extreme, you guys roll on your back and start QQQQQQQQQQing about silly stuff. You want "GOOD DEEPS" but refuse to make a sacrifice for anything, in a class that's literally designed to sacrifice their damage for support abilities. I really don't see how you guys keep typing this crap.

BLM moves out of ley lines, doesn't pay attention to their MP bar, their DPS plummets. A boss changes phase and MNK has to work their DPS up all over again through multiple GCD rotations. But you expect to run circles around the boss, ignore AoE indicators, and still put out damage on their level?

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Originally Posted by Edellis

What the....look if you were EVER trying to stance dance before this patch on BRD at intervals of 15 seconds, then i can understand why people are complaining about crappy DPS.

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lol I would love to see the devs add cast times to drg, nin and mnk. You would see rage haters 3 times it is now. Cast times changes the way a class plays. GB/WM does not make up for it. The dps is still horrible and the game play is no longer unique. Yes its nice to put on GB/WM with out a cast time but the core game play has drastically changed. Again it would be like mnk, nin and drg getting cast times it just doesn't fee right anymore. BRD and MCH lost its core game play with GB/WM.

I really don't understand how MCH "lost its core" anything when it was released with gauss barrel...what are you even getting at here.

And, again, DRG and MNK don't need cast times, they have positionals, and buff timers, and they're melee, so their risk is inherently higher in most duties. There is no reason to.

BRD had zero risk in its playstyle. And honestly, it still doesn't. My cast times are still too low to get me hit with stuff, and i can just turn my stance off and continue DPS the moment i'm in a tight spot. And now, i don't even have to lose a GCD to turn it back on!

You are literally complaining only because you actually have to think about something more than your own DoT timers. This is why I stopped playing BRD at 2.0. It was boring.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

lol I would love to see the devs add cast times to drg, nin and mnk. You would see rage haters 3 times it is now. Cast times changes the way a class plays. GB/WM does not make up for it. The dps is still horrible and the game play is no longer unique. Yes its nice to put on GB/WM with out a cast time but the core game play has drastically changed. Again it would be like mnk, nin and drg getting cast times it just doesn't fee right anymore. BRD and MCH lost its core game play with GB/WM.

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There's already whiners from DRGs because the class is no longer easy as it was at the last patch of ARR, and is more complicated. The good DRGs? Rocking on and pulling ahead.

There's a huge difference between melee and a ranged class getting cast bars. You still have the ability to be incredibly mobile as a MCN/BRD, you just have to think ahead and have to actually to have a small amount of skill before being able to pull out that PHAT DEEPS.

We will never do as much damage as pure DPS classes, because we are a support class, according to the people who designed us and made this game. BRDs cried for more DPS, and you got it. Instead, now you have to actually git gud to do it.

If you can't handle it, play something else. But then again, if you struggle with dealing competitive damage as a BRD as it is, you have no hope for anything else.

I think an easy and simple fix to restore Bards to their proper gameplay would be like this:

1.) Wanderer's Minuet - Now an attack buff that only boosts the power of your next weaponskill by 20%. After its usage, the buff goes on cooldown, much like the new Barrage.
2.) Empyreal Arrow and Iron Jaws - No changes to current potency, but now usable anytime.

Everything else can be kept the same. Yet, I can guarantee you that that would make Bards decent again while still sticking to their proper run-and-gun gameplay.

There's nothing wrong with run-and-gun ranged DPS. Bards were completely fair and balanced by 2.55, but SE tried to "fix" what wasn't even broken, so they only ended up breaking it. My fix would ensure though that Bards can retain their essence and still remain balanced enough that they won't out-damage casters or melee.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

I really don't understand how MCH "lost its core" anything when it was released with gauss barrel...what are you even getting at here.

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Your point would be valid if GB was given to us at lvl 30. GB/WM is handed over at level 52. The game play is very different before GB/WM. You do not get a nice boost to damage with GB/WM. However you loose a lot of mobility which puts on the same page as blm. I main blm so I know the differences. Blms have procs and scathe to help to keep damage going while on the move. I can crit up to 1200+ with scathe and procs can crit up 2k+ while on the move (lvl 54 blm). Yet GB/WM gives hardly any dps gain but your mobility is now on par with blm. DPS doesn't add up.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Your point would be valid if GB was given to us at lvl 30. GB/WM is handed over at level 52. The game play is very different before GB/WM.

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...You seriously make this argument, and then use BLACK MAGE as an example?

The class that completely changed its rotation every 6 or so levels? And then AGAIN once they got Flare? And then they got got Ley Lines, enochian and a bunch of other crap and it happened even more? What are you even crying about at this point.

Also, incase you missed the memo during your adventure to lv30, and then 50, and then 60, BRD is not ever going to output damage like Black Mage because they have abilities like Foe and Ballad and Paeon that provide passive buffs to your party.



You seriously think classes like DRG, MNK, or BLM was going to get all this extra shit they have to deal with to maintain their new DPS rotations, and you were just going to get Empyreal Arrow, Sidewinder, and a 20% damage buff FOR FREE and do 10% less damage than them? While running around and ignoring mechanics like the spoony bard you are?

The changes are pretty much what i was looking for to be honest. The play style isn't quite the same as 2.x but the nice thing is that you can use both seamlessly now!

1. lots of crap flying around and you need to dodge part of a fight -- okay drop WM and 2.x bard it up

2. need to push dps and can stand around for a bit, okay put up WM and buff and bam.

Its not really that complicated. In fact if you ever played scholar its easier than SCH stance dancing, you dont need to worry about healing people.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

...You seriously make this argument, and then use BLACK MAGE as an example?

The class that completely changed its rotation every 6 or so levels? And then AGAIN once they got Flare? And then they got got Ley Lines, enochian and a bunch of other crap and it happened even more? What are you even crying about at this point.

Also, incase you missed the memo during your adventure to lv30, and then 50, and then 60, BRD is not ever going to output damage like Black Mage because they have abilities like Foe and Ballad and Paeon that provide passive buffs to your party.

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yes I will make that argument because everything that BLM got did not change the core game play of the class in fact it improved the game play by giving more skills that builds up from the core game play. What BRDS and MCH got was equivalent to a gimp blm.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

yes I will make that argument because everything that BLM got did not change the core game play of the class in fact it improved the game play by giving more skills that builds up from the core game play. What BRDS and MCH got was equivalent to a gimp blm.

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You're never gonna DPS like a BLM, because you're #1, a support and require much less thought process than a BLM.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

You're never gonna DPS like a BLM, because you're #1, a support and require much less thought process than a BLM.

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lmao r u serious?" blm is pew pew pew pew pew pew pew --- in fact in 2.x bard had to do a majority of the dps mechanics to let melee and blm pew pew pew bam bam bam away.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

First and Foremost BRDs and MCH are dps. We que up as dps and we take up a dps slot in dungeons and raids. We should be treated as a dps bc there is no slot for SUPPORT DPS.

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It's about potentials and the "not support role" because "no slot" is a semantics argument that holds no weight. You play a dps/support class. Even the producer who previously mained the class agrees with this sentiment.

"Concerning the machinist, his role is similar to the bard, it's a support for the other members of the team. So, compared to other pure DPS jobs like monk or ninja, of course its DPS will be lower since they have different roles. " - Yoshi P

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ng_japan_expo/

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

lmao r u serious?" blm is pew pew pew pew pew pew pew --- in fact in 2.x bard had to do a majority of the dps mechanics to let melee and blm pew pew pew bam bam bam away.

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Couldn't have been that it's less of a loss for a BRD to do the mechanics, because you know, the other DPS have more to worry about when it comes to actually doing their damage. 2.x BRD could "pew pew" with near 100% upkeep, and yet you don't understand the why behind what you just said...

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

You're never gonna DPS like a BLM, because you're #1, a support and require much less thought process than a BLM.

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LOL are you serious? Show me in DF where there is DPS SUPPORT slot? BRDs and MCHs take up a DPS slot. You will only use your support skills at most 10% of the time. So the rest of time BRDs and MCHs can just hang back and shoot plastic bullets and arrows? I don't buy it. It's a cheap excuse for the devs to not want to improve the class. I'll gladly take a 45% reduction in dps while being a TP/MP battery but the rest of the time I want to be on par with blm. There is nothing wrong with wanting to hold my own in dps. There is nothing wrong with wanting to contribute to the raids success outside of being a TP/MP battery.

Time to roll up my sleeves, make an appointment with the training dummy, and relearn my jobs (since I took WM and GB off my bar on day 2 or so). Overall, it seems like an improvement, but we'll see.

For people who are interested.
Heres my Dps after defeating turn 1. Could be still a bit higher.

http://puu.sh/iQe2e/5a814ce3ce.jpg

Burst after 1 min was still kinda funny :D

http://puu.sh/iQe5Z/ed9df2e8af.jpg

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Your point would be valid if GB was given to us at lvl 30. GB/WM is handed over at level 52. The game play is very different before GB/WM. You do not get a nice boost to damage with GB/WM. However you loose a lot of mobility which puts on the same page as blm. I main blm so I know the differences. Blms have procs and scathe to help to keep damage going while on the move. I can crit up to 1200+ with scathe and procs can crit up 2k+ while on the move (lvl 54 blm). Yet GB/WM gives hardly any dps gain but your mobility is now on par with blm. DPS doesn't add up.

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You dont get torrent until lv 40, you only get procts at lv 30, at lv 50 you get the second torrent at 52 you start using the stance.... since the new high lv its 60 they give you what you can manage until you get to 60

I just finished Turn 2. According to our ninja, I had the highest DPS in turn 1 and our tank was surprised when I accidentally pulled Aggro as he thought I'd be the last one to do so. I stayed in GB the whole time. So, I'd say we're in pretty good shape now.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Just because you got nerfed on dps does not mean you still not a dps class. Where the heck did this support theory even come from? Just because of powerful support songs? So what? How about all the support that other dps classes give also? That people can argue they add just as much as our songs. Yet, they don't think of themselves as support. You are a dps class not support.

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You probably missed the part where BRD/MCH does substantially less DPS overall than NIN/DRG/MNK/SMN/BLM even WAR/PLD/DRK (in their dps stance). Everybody but the healer. If it wasn't for the oGCD resets that BRD has then a cleric stance WHM might be pulling more dps (no actual number crunching done... but WHM does hit like a truck per hit).

I've heard this way too often. Comparing the "support" skills the other dps classes have to BRD/MCH is just asinine. You probably missed the part where BRD/MCH actually has to sacrifice their already piss poor DPS to use their support skills which has a cast time which lowers their dps even more. Battle Litney? Nah. Goad? Toss and forget. Apocatastasis? Shadewalker? Smoke Screen? Dancing Edge? Literally any "support" skill that isn't from a BRD/MCH and the healers? There's no argument here.

They are a support class. Their low DPS on top of having to lower it further more than confirms it. If they were a DPS class then SE needs to bump up their numbers to be in line with the others, remove cast time on songs, and the damage penalty. Simple as that. Even if the devs say they aren't a support their skill set proves otherwise. Saying BRDs are a DPS over a support is like saying PLDs are a healer over a tank because of Clemency.

Um... Our dps didn't get lowered. If anything, it was increased.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Um... Our dps didn't get lowered. If anything, it was increased.

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...........Songs...... read it again.

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Originally Posted by Chairman_Meow

...........Songs...... read it again.

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Ah, though you meant BRD and MCH.

Here's the problem with the "You're a support class" argument that people like to make.

DPS checks are a thing. The moment I can queue for Trial Roulette and get Ravana and only get BRD/MCH in the DPS slots, then they had better be able to put out a comparable amount of damage as other classes, because otherwise it's just going to make it that much harder to not get a half dozen swords. And we clearly won't need 4 TP/MP batteries. Heck, as a bard, I very rarely ever had to play TP or MP songs in a majority of the dungeons, because most encounters don't last long enough to require it. EX trials, sure. Raids, maybe. But a majority of the content doesn't require it, and the things that do, you'll most likely get an actual pre-made group for it so you can pick who you want to bring for balance.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

our tank was surprised when I accidentally pulled Afro

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I'd be surprised too if you pulled my hair

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Originally Posted by Benolan

I'd be surprised too if you pulled my hair

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Lol. Stupid auto correct. XD Fixed.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Ah, though you meant BRD and MCH.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe MCH loses DPS also by switching their turret into support mode. Support turrets don't attack afaik.

oh would ya look at that, multi dot possibilities throughout a lot of alex with spread out targets. brd/smn heaven. Gonna be funny to watch ALOT of people eat their words about brd dps.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

oh would ya look at that, multi dot possibilities throughout a lot of alex with spread out targets. brd/smn heaven. Gonna be funny to watch ALOT of people eat their words about brd dps.

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That doesn't... mean anything. DPS checking is on a single target. When you're introducing multiple targets then AoE is always going to top the charts hands down. Bards still aren't going to beat SMN/BLMs in AoE unless you get Rain of Death procs back to back to back to back.

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Originally Posted by Chairman_Meow

That doesn't... mean anything. DPS checking is on a single target. When you're introducing multiple targets then AoE is always going to top the charts hands down. Bards still aren't going to beat SMN/BLMs in AoE unless you get Rain of Death procs back to back to back to back.

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and that's why a raid group has a blm o-o also spread out targets obviously don't suit blm. Bard single target damage is fine, been doing alex 1-4 all day, isn't v far behind other dps now though we do have a drg in the static so theres that. Idk this imaginary dps check ur talking about that's hard with a bard btw, and I've done them all lol.

After the update I changed my rotation and noticed that mch is pretty much stuck with slow bursts, to then do low damage for a while again. Gauss Barrel is great when you have your buffs ready to use. I'm using this rotation, but I'm still improving it, to be less buff depended. I'm not sure if Turret dps get calculated with wildfire, though. I use Rook + Hyper Charge anyway.

Hotshot > Lead shot > Gauss Barrel > Blood for Blood > Hawkeye > Raging Strikes > Wildfire > Rapid Fire > reload > Gauss Round > Split Shot > Slug Shot > Clean Shot > Split Shot > Quick Reload > Slug Shot > Clean Shot > Gauss Round > Deactivate Gauss Barrel.

With a bit of luck you'll have done the rotation up to the second Clean Shot before Wildfire it's countdown expires. Rotation is definitely not great, but atleast my DPS increased a nice amount. I just need to tweak around, and hopefully come with a way that it's not a complete 15 second burst rotation, to then have crap damage for a while.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

and that's why a raid group has a blm o-o also spread out targets obviously don't suit blm. Bard single target damage is fine, been doing alex 1-4 all day, isn't v far behind other dps now though we do have a drg in the static so theres that. Idk this imaginary dps check ur talking about that's hard with a bard btw, and I've done them all lol.

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Bard single target damage is fine. That's why having one in the party still allows you to clear content. Nothing hard or imagine dps check.... whatever it is you're going on about. They just flat out do less dps than other classes. Not to mention their DPS relies on RNG.

The way I see BRD and MCH they are nothing more than a gimp BLM with a few support utilities that are rarely used. IMO GB/WM did nothing but make the jobs less fun. Going to be honest I wouldn't mind a 45% decrease in damage while in support mode but when Im not a TP/MP battery I want to do comparable damage to blm. We do not need TP/MP songs anymore or no where near when we use to back in 2.0. SMN, BLM, SCH, PLD, DRK and WHM can manage there own mp now. DRG, NIN, MCH and MNK can manage there own TP using DRG's invigorate. Even War can manage there own TP + NIN can throw a goad to War w/out taking a penalty to damage. And before you say BRDs have Foe well DRG now can buff everyone with 15% crit buff and NIN can do several buffs to increase damage for everyone yet we don't consider that a support role?

rarely used...

I'm done with this thread. I'm going to assume alot of complainers in here didn't even bother with the raid content in 2.0 when they apparently had nothing to complain about.

Anyone who says group support is a waste (MP/TP) either doesn't raid and hasn't done content like final coil or has no idea what their talking about. I can promise you in Alex savage these support skills will be mandatory. If bards didn't have these skills at this point literally no one would bring then to a raid because they would just bring another class that provides utility and does more dps.

You can argue that it's not fun anymore and that's fine. Fun is subjective and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to say that utility is useless is down right ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Chairman_Meow

Bard single target damage is fine. That's why having one in the party still allows you to clear content. Nothing hard or imagine dps check.... whatever it is you're going on about. They just flat out do less dps than other classes. Not to mention their DPS relies on RNG.

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And why would u want 2 of any class? Also arguing single target dps is hardly worthwhile now with this new raid having 2+ targets on screen a lot of the time. T1 boss summons a clone of himself, t3 the hands, t4 the legs. Minuet multidoting and refreshing with ironjaw is Very good dps. bard has good dps vs 2+ high hp targets.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

You can argue that it's not fun anymore and that's fine. Fun is subjective and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to say that utility is useless is down right ignorant.

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Well in most cases you don't need them. WHM, SCH, SMN, BLM, DRK and PLD can manage there own MP. DRG, MNK, MCH, BRD and NIN can manage there own TP using DRG's cross class utility. Even War can now manage there own TP. Hell NIN can throw out a Goad with out taking any damage penalty. Only in dire circumstances will you ever need TP/MP Regan from BRD and MCH. Even SMN can cast a raise DURRING COMBAT w/out taking a damage penalty.

Still unacceptable.

The problem with Minuet is the loss of mobility. I do not want to be a "turret/caster" bard.

When I feel like doing this, I switch to my Black Mage job.

As long as Minuet will reduce our mobility and turn us into a caster, it will stay a badly designed skill for the bard class.

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Originally Posted by Ormeriel

Still unacceptable.

The problem with Minuet is the loss of mobility. I do not want to be a "turret/caster" bard.

When I feel like doing this, I switch to my Black Mage job.

As long as Minuet will reduce our mobility and turn us into a caster, it will stay a badly designed skill for the bard class.

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That's why you only turn on minuet when you won't be moving for a while. A good example is Ravana Extreme when he sits, charging up his attack while taking x2 damage. The loss of mobility means nothing there because you shouldn't be moving to begin with (sans repelling)

http://www.knowleskreative.com/files...lustration.jpg

Just get RID of Wanderer's Minuet completely. Return bard to being a mobile support job that does ~15% less dps than black mage and everyone will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Well in most cases you don't need them. WHM, SCH, SMN, BLM, DRK and PLD can manage there own MP. DRG, MNK, MCH, BRD and NIN can manage there own TP using DRG's cross class utility. Even War can now manage there own TP. Hell NIN can throw out a Goad with out taking any damage penalty. Only in dire circumstances will you ever need TP/MP Regan from BRD and MCH. Even SMN can cast a raise DURRING COMBAT w/out taking a damage penalty.

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U know a paladin runs out of tp in under 3 mins? Also nobody needs paeon like a nin needs it, they will go dry with invigorate not even nearly off cd. All the goad can achieve is delay the paeon slightly if u throw it on the paladin. . Theres no such thing as managing tp either, your either dpsing to max potential or ur not. So sure, if majority of the raid sux at dpsing or voluntairily gimps themselves, yh u wont need paeon then I guess.