Machinist needs serious attention

Major fights have considerable movement. This will effect everyone's numbers. Parsing standing still does not reflect how the jobs will play out in a raid setting.

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

Major fights have considerable movement. This will effect everyone's numbers. Parsing standing still does not reflect how the jobs will play out in a raid setting.

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Well, yeah, this is assumed. We all know that training dummy parses don't represent how jobs will perform in a raid. Or at least, I'd hope we would...

The sad thing is, with GB and WM being what they are, BRD and MCH DPS is practically guaranteed to be worse in a raid setting, especially if they buff both stances down the line and make it a requirement. They'd have to have ENORMOUS bonuses to compensate for the loss of auto attacks and BLM-style casting interruptions.

I'm still at a loss as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted as lowest dps in a party composition. BRD and MCN still take up a DPS slot. Shouldn't they be expected to pull their share of the DPS responsibility?

"BRD and MCN can buff the other DPS in the party."
-Well, sure, but doesn't DRG and WAR do the same thing? BRD gets a penalty for buffing others by lowering their own. MCN can only do it for 15 sec out of 90. DRG keeps theirs up 100% (ideally.) MNK can boost healing effectiveness for the party. NIN can boost damage for the party for a time, as well with Trick Attack.

"BRD and MCN can always attack and don't have to stop moving."
-Neither does my DRG... Yes, I know I'm limited to melee range, but having cleared T1-13 on my DRG, having to stay out of range during times when the boss was still targetable and attackable was EXTREMELY rare. With two different gap-closeres, my DRG never stopped hitting. Besides, my SMN is able to keep up an extremely high percentage of its damage while on the move, as well. Not to mention the fact that, guess what, BRD and MCN have to stop moving now, too, for WM and GB.

"MCN has so many other abilities to affect the fight."
-In theory, but not in practical application. Almost every boss in the game is immune to stun, silence, knockback, heavy, and bind. That's five of our abilities we can't use in a boss fight, and almost all of our utility. Sure, we get a defensive cooldown that nerfs the boss, but so does SMN...

"BRD and MCH can give tp/mp to other classes."
-So can NIN. On top of that, I was always expected to manage my own TP as DRG and MP as SMN. Yes, our BRD was there to sing for our healers, but since when does that increase our DPS? The times when our BRD played a TP song to help regen the TP of a DPS who died, it never increased my ability to deal damage as my DRG. Having to stop dealing damage to help a party member, sure, that sounds 100% logical. But when I'm not helping my healers, why am I still sitting at the bottom of the list, undisputed?


Yes, BRD and MCN are different from the other DPS, as they should be. I don't expect every job to play the same. I DO expect, however, that every role be able to perform on the same level. All healers should be able to keep their party alive. All tanks should be able to survive getting their face smashed in. All DPS should be able to keep up their share of the required DPS checks.

The days of MMO's being filled with large, open-world bosses with the ranged DPS standing up on a rock to height-mitigate damage, are gone. No longer do the melee have to constantly 'joust' to avoid constant spam of 360-degree AoEs. Why are we still treating ranged DPS like this? Having played both ranged, caster, and melee dps in T1-13, the argument that the backline has to move less is complete garbage. I had to move MORE as a BLM and SMN than I ever did as a DRG.

So, why are we okay with DRG and SMN parsing extremely high, while BRD and MCN parse so much lower?
Outside of giving MP to our beloved healers, why should we be allowed to attend raids?

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

They'd have to have ENORMOUS bonuses to compensate for the loss of auto attacks and BLM-style casting interruptions.

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With MCH at least, you only have three attacks that you have to worry about being interrupted with GB on. Split Shot, your basic attack, Hot Shot, your weak damage buff, and and Lead Shot, your DoT. Both Hot Shot and Lead Shot you only have to worry about once every thirty seconds. Which means the biggest concern in this regard is Split Shot. You don't have to worry about anything else, because they're all OGC with the exception of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. And those two don't have the cast time if you use them as part of the combo, only if you use them individually, which you never have reason to since the combo of Split Shot and Slug Shot does more damage than the combo of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. Because of this, as well as proper use of Rapid Fire, (which completely negates the cast time for three attacks in a row), using GB doesn't leave you with that much of a risk of interruption. It just makes it so that your attacks come at the end of the recast timer with those three attacks, rather than the beginning. The only real downside is the lack of Auto Attack for the most part......

That being said, I still only use GB when I'm in situations that don't require a lot of dodging, or when I'm wanting to do as much damage as possible while Wildfire is up. I imagine the interruption poses more of a risk to BRDs than it does MCHs honestly.......

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Originally Posted by Ramath

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Thank you so much for this. I try to explain this everytime and I end up tripping over my own tongue and get frustrated hearing other people arguing ridiculous semantics.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Thank you so much for this. I try to explain this everytime and I end up tripping over my own tongue and get frustrated hearing other people arguing ridiculous semantics.

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Yup. I really wish SE would simply address the issue.

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Originally Posted by Ramath

Yup. I really wish SE would simply address the issue.

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Either we get the WAR 2.1 treatment, or we wait till Patch 3.3 and they increase the potency of Split Shot by 10. >_>

Just before 3.0 EA hit,i've planed to get 1 of dex-user become my 3rd main job.NIN is out of the question since i've suffered mundra lag so the choices i have left are Brd or MCN.And then I ran into this thread .. Guess i should go with Brd .. After my 2nd main job reach lv 60 ...

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Originally Posted by Ramath

Yup. I really wish SE would simply address the issue.

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Or re-embrace true support classes as a thing. I really hate the fact they just dropped the entire concept of a true support role, support was such a fun thing to do in FFXI be it buffing your party or debuffing the enemy. It makes the game rather bland having homogenized everything under the holy trinity of tank, healer, dps.

Bard should have been a dedicated support job, able to deal damage but primarily focused on buffing and debuffing while something else was the ranged dps evolution of archer. Ranger perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

With MCH at least, you only have three attacks that you have to worry about being interrupted with GB on. Split Shot, your basic attack, Hot Shot, your weak damage buff, and and Lead Shot, your DoT. Both Hot Shot and Lead Shot you only have to worry about once every thirty seconds. Which means the biggest concern in this regard is Split Shot. You don't have to worry about anything else, because they're all OGC with the exception of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. And those two don't have the cast time if you use them as part of the combo, only if you use them individually, which you never have reason to since the combo of Split Shot and Slug Shot does more damage than the combo of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. Because of this, as well as proper use of Rapid Fire, (which completely negates the cast time for three attacks in a row), using GB doesn't leave you with that much of a risk of interruption. It just makes it so that your attacks come at the end of the recast timer with those three attacks, rather than the beginning. The only real downside is the lack of Auto Attack for the most part......

That being said, I still only use GB when I'm in situations that don't require a lot of dodging, or when I'm wanting to do as much damage as possible while Wildfire is up. I imagine the interruption poses more of a risk to BRDs than it does MCHs honestly.......

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Except for the fact that our Split Shot doesn't proc Slug Shot anywhere close to 50%. Meaning, we are spending, in real application, a LOT of time spamming the ability that can be interrupted. It's bad enough that Slug Shot only proc's 1 in every 239485293458723945872394583294587239457823945432987, but now we'll get even less when you include the Split Shots lost by movement.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Either we get the WAR 2.1 treatment, or we wait till Patch 3.3 and they increase the potency of Split Shot by 10. >_>

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Man, oh man, I hope this isn't the case... While SE has over-buffed jobs in the past, look how long it took to address other issues. Like, after they screwed up the BLM's Astral/Umbral timers, or how long it took to address the M.Def for MNK and DRG. Or, how about changing how positionals work?

Do we really want to wait over a year to get looked at?

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

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I don't see why I wouldn't invite a class/job. So what if they're not the top end in numbers? If the player's good/willing to learn and we have fun together, that's what matters.

I'll also probably give it a try simply because I'd like to have another DPS (I figure at least 2 of each role would be a good thing to aim for right now). I admit that archer/BRD just wasn't my cup of tea so I don't know what I expect from MCH. But given that I main BLM right now the concept of casting times doesn't bug me much at all. And I played classes with turret systems before in other games (I'm thinking Dragon Nest mostly) so it feels a little familiar already in theory. We shall see.

Why do I want to level MCH next? It looks badass.

Thanks DreadRabbit for the response and your thoughts!

I know most of this thread has been discussing how low damaging MCH are, but there are more problems to this class than the damage (though that's a pretty big one and imo should definitely be addressed). Players have made comments about the effort it takes to put out the very little reward in dps.

After reading Ramath's post I questioned myself in why I ever accepted my BRD's dps being as low as it was during 2.0. In every MMO I've played (WoW, LotRO, Rift, FFXI, and many others) I can't remember there being such a disparity between ranged and melee classes being played by good players as the disparity I see in FFXIV. Sure, some classes were at times more OP than others. Those seasons of OPness though only lasted for a few months. Still, whenever I played ranged classes I never felt the way I feel on BRD and MCH, so why was I ok with it? Well, b/c BRD was so freaking easy to play. I didn't mind trading off my DPS by a reasonable margin so I could just enjoy a less stressful role in coil, which led to me doing callouts.

However, MCH is not BRD.

MCH takes more babysitting than any other class I've played in this game besides healing, and even then I think I could make an argument that tunnel visioning over 9 buffs and 3 procs is more babysitting than watching 8 health bars. MNK, DRG, NIN, and BLM all have their own method of complexity. If I'm expected to play MCH efficiently with the damage comparable to BRD, then this class needs to be edited to reflect that gameplay.

I enjoy going crazy with click buffs, but really the only 'new' thing with this class is basically an aetherflow concept. We get stacks that allows us to use our combos. This class needs serious editing. Skills need to be combined (like Blank + Suppressive Fire for example). There needs to be something to address the buff babysitting to make it fun.

I'm not asking for an easy class like BRD, but I am pointing out that if I'm going to do BRD damage the class should be less stressing over cooldown timers and more about having fun with them. This class needs a focus like PLD has been given. This class needs a focused theme. Yes we have guns, yes we have gadgets, but where Dark Knight was inspired by the likes of Guts (and the class feels very much like a selfish, dark, crazy run in and slash'em up sort of class), MCH to me feels like Yosemite Sam from Looney Toons, frantically firing off whatever I can to catch up in damage only to realize I'm not really doing much of anything in the end.

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

This job has a high skill cap

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it does !? you mean after opening rotation, spam 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1, what kind of skill is that !?

Hmmm this is interesting. I planned to level Machinist after finishing the MSQ. I wil lstil ldo it but will look out for the damage problem. I don't mind the large ammount the babysitting. Obvioulsy that was th reason why the job was locked behind the gate of judgement. It's complicated.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Obvioulsy that was th reason why the job was locked behind the gate of judgement. It's complicated.

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Lol, that's true. To be completely honest, as naysayery as I may be about this class, I love playing it. I just know it can be more polished like some of the other jobs if we can build enough awareness.

I don't hate the babysitting... but I know there could be a funner way to do it. ;)

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Lol, that's true. To be completely honest, as naysayery as I may be about this class, I love playing it. I just know it can be more polished like some of the other jobs if we can build enough awareness.

I don't hate the babysitting... but I know there could be a funner way to do it. ;)

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I'm sure I'll have a blast as well. Pun intended.

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

Major fights have considerable movement. This will effect everyone's numbers. Parsing standing still does not reflect how the jobs will play out in a raid setting.

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The nature of GB/WM requires you to be standing still anyway. If the damage output from using those is a very minor increase, if not a dps loss, whats the point of even using it in a fight outside of burst?

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Originally Posted by Ramath

So, why are we okay with DRG and SMN parsing extremely high, while BRD and MCN parse so much lower?
Outside of giving MP to our beloved healers, why should we be allowed to attend raids?

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Machinist right now from what I feel is the very representation of "Jack of all, master of none", which really has no place in an MMO setting. None of the support/debuffs they give are unique to the class, and its comparatively weaker than what's already available. On top of overall lower damage output:

-Trick Attack has a lower cooldown, higher effectiveness and affects both sources. Hypercharge's cooldown is twice as long (2 minutes), half the effectiveness, and only affects one type of damage source (with a lower potency being attacked to the magic vulnerability one since that's bishop)
-Virus has an effective cooldown of 1 minute-90 seconds, 10% effectiveness to both sources. Mind Rend/Wrench Toss both share cooldowns at 90 seconds at 5% effectiveness toward one source. There's no antibody attached to it, but no one would want to bring two machinists to a single raid with how low their damage output is.
-Even down to their TP/MP regen, their turret is a weaker regen compared to bard singing, for probably a higher dps loss since they've reduced bard's penalty to 15%. The only upside to this is that it's an instant cast to switch the turret from attack to support. Hypercharging to boost this is also shared with the vulnerbility debuff mentioned before at a 2 minute cooldown.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Thanks DreadRabbit for the response and your thoughts!

I know most of this thread has been discussing how low damaging MCH are, but there are more problems to this class than the damage (though that\\'s a pretty big one and imo should definitely be addressed). Players have made comments about the effort it takes to put out the very little reward in dps.

MCH to me feels like Yosemite Sam from Looney Toons, frantically firing off whatever I can to catch up in damage only to realize I\\'m not really doing much of anything in the end.

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I felt just like that in my first Ravana HM fight yesterday. Frustrating.

Is it me, or is this thread relies more on "it feels like..." rather than on cold hard data?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The nature of GB/WM requires you to be standing still anyway. If the damage output from using those is a very minor increase, if not a dps loss, whats the point of even using it in a fight outside of burst?



Machinist right now from what I feel is the very representation of "Jack of all, master of none", which really has no place in an MMO setting. None of the support/debuffs they give are unique to the class, and its comparatively weaker than what's already available. On top of overall lower damage output:

-Trick Attack has a lower cooldown, higher effectiveness and affects both sources. Hypercharge's cooldown is twice as long (2 minutes), half the effectiveness, and only affects one type of damage source (with a lower potency being attacked to the magic vulnerability one since that's bishop)
-Virus has an effective cooldown of 1 minute-90 seconds, 10% effectiveness to both sources. Mind Rend/Wrench Toss both share cooldowns at 90 seconds at 5% effectiveness toward one source. There's no antibody attached to it, but no one would want to bring two machinists to a single raid with how low their damage output is.
-Even down to their TP/MP regen, their turret is a weaker regen compared to bard singing, for probably a higher dps loss since they've reduced bard's penalty to 15%. The only upside to this is that it's an instant cast to switch the turret from attack to support. Hypercharging to boost this is also shared with the vulnerbility debuff mentioned before at a 2 minute cooldown.

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I wish this wasn't the case... I really do enjoy this job, and I have every intention of playing it full time. It's just heartbreaking...



#rimShot

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Is it me, or is this thread relies more on "it feels like..." rather than on cold hard data?

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It's not. We have plenty of hard numbers to go with it. Unfortunately, most of the "it feels like..." come from those who are trying to convince everyone that it's just fine and does the same dps as any other job. The opening post has several links to that very thing.

So far, I'm only 36 but the job... "feels" like it does a whole a lot without being highly productive. Of course I can't be the judge of what it plays like 50+ cause both are entirely different animals. That being said, my MNK is 57 now and with its new abilities, it's go go go with nothing but dmg added (Chakra of course is a one time thing per fight unless a whole lot of waiting is going on), but I can't help but feel, how will MCH keep up with this? Ok sure, it's got some debuffs/DOTs, but it's still going to feel lacking.

I have faith SE will fix it if it truly is THAT bad. No one wanted WARs in endgame on launch, they fixed it and now either or works. That's the problem with these style MMOs, if you have a tank, you want a tank, not someone who can slightly do more dmg but will make your healers work harder. It's not worth the trade off. You have a DPS slotted in? You want full out DPS. Until they make a debuff/enfeeble job and bosses that really take a hit from said debuffs and enfeebles, these hybridish type jobs will never thrive. Oh that's nice, you applied a dot that hit for 100 dmg and will add an extra 200 over time? I just unloaded 1500 dmg and can do it again in 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

it does !? you mean after opening rotation, spam 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1, what kind of skill is that !?

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If that is how you are playing Machinist, I completely understand you might be frustrated with low numbers.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Is it me, or is this thread relies more on "it feels like..." rather than on cold hard data?

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Numbers are objective. Machinist has overall lower potencies spread across their primary abilities, wildfire gets calculated twice against defense, and their utility is behind existing ones in either value, functionality or both.

I did just discover that Hypercharging the Turrets has them apply a Vulnerability Up for 10 seconds on every shot. Thats awesome.

I just wanna laugh when I do a 3-minute parse on a training dummy and net 420-ish DPS on MCH while hitting 500+ easily on DRG when my DRG is 6 levels and 10 ilvls weaker.

And by laugh, I mean sob. Let the tears flow...

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

I just wanna laugh when I do a 3-minute parse on a training dummy and net 420-ish DPS on MCH while hitting 500+ easily on DRG when my DRG is 6 levels and 10 ilvls weaker.

And by laugh, I mean sob. Let the tears flow...

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If you're level 60, you should be doing around 650 at the very least. Machnist is the lowest dps compared to all the others but not that low.

Of course I'm not 60. 420 would be an absolutely pathetic amount at that level.

On the plus side, at least in dungeons our AoE is strong enough to make us not look bad. When CDs are up I can reach pre-nerf BLM levels of burst AoE DPS... though unfortunately it's much less sustainable because of TP costs, heh. I still wish they'd change that mechanic entirely. Why do BLMs get to have infinite resources while all the physical DPS classes run OOTP in any long fight?

Someone posted this, seriously needs our support:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...xander-release

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

If that is how you are playing Machinist, I completely understand you might be frustrated with low numbers.

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Depending on RNG and if R/QL are on CD that (1,1,1,1,1,1) can very well happen. Do you even play this job? I'm very confused as to why people who don't play MCH are coming in here and telling the people who do play MCH that they're wrong.

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Originally Posted by IfritReborn

Depending on RNG and if R/QL are on CD that (1,1,1,1,1,1) can very well happen. Do you even play this job? I'm very confused as to why people who don't play MCH are coming in here and telling the people who do play MCH that they're wrong.

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I have been playing Machinist since early release launch. 1111111 is very rare if you are managing everything properly. You have to manage cooldown-weaving and not just throwing a cooldown when it procs. You also need to manage you ammo instead of again, just throwing it when it comes off. Its not a PUSH ALLLLLL THE BUTTONS class.

1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1... can occur roughly ever 60s, playing correctly.

Sure, use QR within a few seconds after it comes off CD when the time is right. Same with Reload.

But you shouldn't be holding either for very long (at most, to Slug>Clean first on a Split proc).

QR & R should be synced relatively close to one another.

So... he's right.

RNG is RNG.

It's a major issue with the Job & a serious reason we need this thread's support: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...xander-release

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

I have been playing Machinist since early release launch. 1111111 is very rare if you are managing everything properly. You have to manage cooldown-weaving and not just throwing a cooldown when it procs. You also need to manage you ammo instead of again, just throwing it when it comes off. Its not a PUSH ALLLLLL THE BUTTONS class.

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Incorrect.

There is NO situation where holding Quick Reload and Reload actually increases your DPS. Both of them should be hit pretty much as soon as they come off of cd. You can hold your other buffs to coincide with Reload, but the other way around is a straight DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

I have been playing Machinist since early release launch. 1111111 is very rare if you are managing everything properly. You have to manage cooldown-weaving and not just throwing a cooldown when it procs. You also need to manage you ammo instead of again, just throwing it when it comes off. Its not a PUSH ALLLLLL THE BUTTONS class.

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This can (and will) be the case after your initial burst. There's no reason your quick reload should ever be off cooldown, and reload should always be used when it comes up save for specific burst scenarios or refreshing hot/lead shot

I was more meaning depending on the situation, like if a mob is about to die then switching to the next mob. In any case, Drowned Wednesday has done an amazing job testing simulations. Please refer to this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...achinist-Guide for more information regarding the job. In my experience, following her information, I am rarely just 1111111. Especially with maintaining Hot Shot and Lead Shot. That being said, most jobs boil down to a few single skills after bursts. Black mages have fire spam... ruin spam on summoners... bards have heavy shot, it's not uncommon for jobs to have brief periods of spamming.

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

I was more meaning depending on the situation, like if a mob is about to die then switching to the next mob...

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Aah... the discrepancy/issue here is you're talking trash mobs while we're talking bosses/lengthy-encounters.

Of course, if you're not going beyond the opener much at all, will you run into this problem.

Her method is not unlike mine/ours in a lot of ways, if you prolong it past 1 minute... you will run into the 1-1-1-1-1-1... just like everybody else.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

Someone posted this, seriously needs our support:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...xander-release

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I supported that thread. Thank you for the link, I'm glad the word is getting spread.

I just had to repost this:

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Is it me, or is this thread relies more on "it feels like..." rather than on cold hard data?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Numbers are objective. Machinist has overall lower potencies spread across their primary abilities, wildfire gets calculated twice against defense, and their utility is behind existing ones in either value, functionality or both.

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This, this so much. I don't understand how people can argue with the fact that paladins have a higher potency combo that is guaranteed. Do they have our buffs? Maybe not, but they're also tanks, don't rely on RNG, AND they don't have the lowest weapon damage in the game (Hive PLD WD = 72, BRD / MCH Hive WD = 65 - http://xivdb.com/?search/hive). Why?!?! Yes I understand our other armor has damage increasing stats while tank armor has survival stats, but this is the lowest measure I'm comparing too. Look at other DPS classes. None of this adds up when you look at this as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Ramath

It's not. We have plenty of hard numbers to go with it. Unfortunately, most of the "it feels like..." come from those who are trying to convince everyone that it's just fine and does the same dps as any other job. The opening post has several links to that very thing.

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And this is probably the only thing that can trump my confusion with how MCH got out of testing with the issues it has. Why do people want to argue with the players who are playing the class? We're arguing to be better in PARTIES, you know we're arguing to play better for the TEAM. It's impossible to argue in a selfish manner considering this argument will directly benefit 7 other people in a fight. Why are people wanting us to be wrong? B/c we are? Sorry, but there's proof here that we're not. Numbers. Facts. Show us something different so we can understand if we are wrong. Otherwise, those that are arguing against this problem are basically arguing to keep a class subpar to others, which is extremely unfair.

I have not seen one post that argues for MCH to be OP. I have not seen a post asking to nerf other DPS. We are arguing to be on par with the other jobs in the game.