RIP Ninja

This was clearly their attempt at putting their best foot forward for each class and drawing people in; their big announcement! And draw they did because almost every class now has a badass stance that allows them to unleash a new tier of hell. Except Ninja who will now look and feel a lot like the v2.X classes in comparison.

I am going to assume if there was any better news for the Ninja it would have been there in this video. Just to make the Ninja section somewhat less of a trainwreck.

People come to expansions in hopes of seeing their class evolve or gain new levels of badass and not to be told "hey everyone else got something but not you because that class is newer so you don't deserve anything good."

Being told that your getting minor QoL changes and an extra raiton in exchange for positional requirements on your total DPS, isn't what people were expecting or hoping for and so a lot of people are rightfully disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

whats with the obsession people have with the movement speed buff if you suck at melee the movement speed buff won't help you you know. you sit on the edge of flank and rear please learn how to play melee(this isn't only for the person i quoted looking at you fist of wind needs changes thread)

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Movement speed comes more into play when you're also having to deal with fight mechanics and dodging, unless you sit on the edge of the flank/rear all fight and eat every WotL?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Movement speed comes more into play when you're also having to deal with fight mechanics and dodging, unless you sit on the edge of the flank/rear all fight and eat every WotL?

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.... are you even serious right now the movement speed buff really does jack shit for anything. I'd rather give up the movement speed buff so people would stop bitching over it and guess what nothing would change at all ever. So my question to you is have you ever seen a comparison video of movement?

I feel like the only reason nin didnt get a new in depth mechanic was that its such a well designed job to begin with. Now that doesnt mean that it cant get quite a significant dps boost from the addon. More ninjutsu due to lack of huton or new combo enders (looks like there is a 3rd hit after shadow fang) could be a nice increase.

Now with other classes, there was just a bigger need for new mechanics (PLD, WAR, BLM, DRG) or an overhaul (SMN) or some refinement due to already existing clunky mechanics (MNK). This does however not mean that those classes will necessarily have a bigger dps boost than nin, just that their gameplay will change more drastically.

Someone understands!

I actually speculate that Ninja will get huge DPS boosts simply from buffs to Skill Speed. We already know that skill/spell speed gets higher rate of returns the more you stack them. (and the drawback is that your run out of TP faster, which they will address)

This will scale best with Ninja's very short GCD.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Actually, reading the text again...

It doesn't say anything about reducing enmity.. And it does mention specifically helping tanks.. Maybe it will be an ability that increases enmity for tanks.. Seems odd.. But just taken literally that's what it sounds like to me. NIN large amount of damage upfront is unrelated to another's (non-tank) enmity, ie you wouldn't reduce "another party members" enmity because NIN enmity is so high.. I bet it's just a buff for tanks, though would be nice if they clarified. Really it could be a useful ability, if the tanks get new combos, like PLD getting new dots, and this move increases their enmity gain, it may give them a chance to get their dots up and thereby help raid dps a bit.

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Sounds like SATA weaponskills from FFXI almost to plant enmity on the tank.

Beyond that, I think one positional might be this at 2m58s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvv0rgrT4k#t=2m58s

That looks like a backstab to me.

Almost every retired MNK that switched to NIN did it because of free positional, now it's time to get back to monk...

I don't mind there being positionals so long as they add to my rotation/dps, rather than detract from it. Positionals are fun and satisfying to execute, but I'm worried that since NIN wasn't designed with them in mind originally, that they'll end up tampering with the flow of how the job is played. If that's the case, I'll just move back to MNK, where the job was designed from the ground up with positonals in mind and as such plays super smooth with them weaving in and out of rear/flank, as opposed to NIN which I fear will end up feeling clunky between positionals and mudras and goad/hate management and all that fun stuff. Time will tell!

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Originally Posted by ToppeHatte

I don't mind there being positionals so long as they add to my rotation/dps, rather than detract from it. Positionals are fun and satisfying to execute, but I'm worried that since NIN wasn't designed with them in mind originally, that they'll end up tampering with the flow of how the job is played. If that's the case, I'll just move back to MNK, where the job was designed from the ground up with positonals in mind and as such plays super smooth with them weaving in and out of rear/flank, as opposed to NIN which I fear will end up feeling clunky between positionals and mudras and goad/hate management and all that fun stuff. Time will tell!

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that the whole trouble, the ninjutsu is not made for positional fight, the whole ninja cycle is a mess because they did try to fit 2 type of content together into one cycle. they have a few solution for solve the trouble, the first one is get ride of the 0.5 cd on the mudra, like this no lag and more important add an HuD that show which symbole was casted. this two stuff will solve a lot of trouble, but it's far to be enough...

if you look at the other jobs, when they use them skill, they only need to press one button for out GCD skill, that not the case for the ninja, the ninjutsu take 4 action for the 3 mudra skill. and why it's a trouble? because we need to do them in a chain, if we do any other action, the skill is broken, instead top save the sign and allow us to build it over time. indeed from the lore, it's understandable, but it make the whole quite unfriendly. i feel it was really really really the worst solution to add positional. because let's be honest it was added because other jobs was complaining about it.

another point that is extremely important... we do get 10 more level, allowing to develop more the jobs... and we get.... nothing.. i'm sorry positional is not a new evolution for the jobs, get a skill for reduce hate is nice and a skill the refresh huton too.... but our jobs will not change, all the jobs from the game evolve and become better... we are still rogue with ninjutsu added on the top. not yet a true ninja.


ps: i want to point one important thing, the fact that we are the only jobs that can fail our skill.... other jobs only need to press one button and them skill start and will succed. we can mess up the ninjutsu leading to looose a cd of 20 second! no other jobs have this sort of punishement! do we need more punishement about loosing effect because the monster did move at the last second or because the tank move all the time? i don't think soo!

It's already extremely frustrating when you do a trick attack and the boss spins and you don't get the additional effect. If I wanted to play DDR then I would play MNK or DRG. As it stands probably going to drop NIN. :(

i feel it's the worst idea they had soo far.... sadly they will not drop it because well other complain about ninja unfair "advantage"
you can even see in the dps forum, monk coming crying saying ninja are top dps, when it's not true.

you have even people saying it's easier than dragoon, forgetting the fact that ninjutsu is not simply 1 skill button... but 3-4 button.

the best is the one saying with huton+cd+123 ninja can reach 600 dps... after you can't expect yoshida and it team to ignore them.

ps: by the way, i don't forget the fact that the ninja get new skill and such, but where every jobs evolve and become more interesting, ninja will stay the same, why? because it was added to the 2.4? meaning we will need to wait the 3.4 for expect to receive the same treatment?

Ninja getting positional seems fun, and I'd certainly enjoy it more than I do now. I just can't decide what Job I want to main going into the expac now...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Ninja getting positional seems fun, and I'd certainly enjoy it more than I do now. I just can't decide what Job I want to main going into the expac now...

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If you like positionals, fast attacks and dealing lots of damage, play MNK. If you like positionals, fast attacks, mudra lag and supporting others, play NIN.

I just can't see this adding anything worthwhile to the job. I understand if they added positionals for the new skills, but going back and adding them to skills that never had them in the first place is ridiculous. I was gearing NIN for HW, but I just can't bring myself to bother anymore. If this is what it sounds like, NIN is going into the SMN bin for me.

lets add positionals to Nin, while still ignoring the mudra-networking issues and the terrible mnk gameplay(networking/system design issues again) for users broadcasting over 10,000 KM's from the servers.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

I feel like the only reason nin didnt get a new in depth mechanic was that its such a well designed job to begin with. Now that doesnt mean that it cant get quite a significant dps boost from the addon. More ninjutsu due to lack of huton or new combo enders (looks like there is a 3rd hit after shadow fang) could be a nice increase.

Now with other classes, there was just a bigger need for new mechanics (PLD, WAR, BLM, DRG) or an overhaul (SMN) or some refinement due to already existing clunky mechanics (MNK). This does however not mean that those classes will necessarily have a bigger dps boost than nin, just that their gameplay will change more drastically.

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Get this logical statement out of here. It doesn't belong on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Get this logical statement out of here. It doesn't belong on the forums.

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he is not that wrong, however, we can't forget the point that everyjobs feel like getting new power for become stronger, where we don't get this...
the jobs idea are nice and interesting, the way to do it are lacking more refinement. but at the same time, we can regret they haven't used ninjutsu for give use new mechanic, like allows us to use a new sort of combo from ninjutsu.
for me the ninja was left out for the sole reason to have been added later. that bad and unfair to the player playing ninja. we did deserve to feel the new power from leveling up. there we will not be different than the jobs that did come out from heavenward....

actually i think if they had waited for heavenward for release the ninja we will not feel this much disappointed. Every jobs get new mechanic that change the way you play your class passed level 50.... only the ninja don't have this. the refresh of huton is a QoL improvement, not a new mechanic...

i had wish for more interaction between the ninjustu and the weaponskill, it was possible to make it better and they have let us down by simply go the easy way and add positional to a class that wasn't designed for.... the reason behind this, i'm sorry to say it, are bad.... the real reason was the complaining coming from the dragoon and monk because we didn't had positional when they had.

but at the same time, if that the case, we need to ask for them to have skill that can fail or are impacted by the lag like us!

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Get this logical statement out of here. It doesn't belong on the forums.

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I'd be ok with their well designed ninjutsu system if they would either A be able to fix the lag or B change how it works.

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Originally Posted by Cexikitin

It's already extremely frustrating when you do a trick attack and the boss spins and you don't get the additional effect. If I wanted to play DDR then I would play MNK or DRG. As it stands probably going to drop NIN. :(

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This is the way I feel as well. Why can't we have one MDPS class that doesn't care about positionals, and why can't we have one RDPS class that doesn't worry about movement interrupting their abilities? These things made the classes unique and interesting, and happens to be one of the primary reasons I enjoy the ninja.

Instead, they took the most unique aspect of 2 different classes, namely their ability to ignore some requirements other classes have, but having requirements in other areas (like the bard's off-GCD abilities or the Ninja's ninjutsus) that "raise the difficulty" to make them more like their peers. It's just a lazy and bad solution that ultimately makes the game and its class design less varied, not more.

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Originally Posted by Songi

I love how every other melee is actually going through a positive overhaul while the Ninja is getting nothing new. The expansion is happening for every job in the game except Ninja.

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People want to shrug it off, but emnity control needs some looking into and has for a while. Makes sense that NIN would have a part to play in this from the DD side keeping its ROG roots in mind(SE has in its MMO development over the yrs come to associate the rogue or thief type to emnity management after all).

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Actually, reading the text again...

"we added an ability which adjust another party members enmity. Ninja’s specialty is to be able to deal large damage from the start of the battle, so this skill is in place to support the tank in a situation where the enmity becomes unstable."

It doesn't say anything about reducing enmity.. And it does mention specifically helping tanks.. Maybe it will be an ability that increases enmity for tanks.. Seems odd.. But just taken literally that's what it sounds like to me. NIN large amount of damage upfront is unrelated to another's (non-tank) enmity, ie you wouldn't reduce "another party members" enmity because NIN enmity is so high.. I bet it's just a buff for tanks, though would be nice if they clarified. Really it could be a useful ability, if the tanks get new combos, like PLD getting new dots, and this move increases their enmity gain, it may give them a chance to get their dots up and thereby help raid dps a bit.

And this is an excellent point I thought about but forgot in my semi-rant >.<

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Sounds like SATA weaponskills from FFXI almost to plant enmity on the tank.

Beyond that, I think one positional might be this at 2m58s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbvv0rgrT4k#t=2m58s

That looks like a backstab to me.

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Exactly my thought. Now as long as SE makes the positional req be solely on the NIN and need minimal assistance from the rest of the party, i think its gonna be sweet.

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Originally Posted by Songi

I love how every other melee is actually going through a positive overhaul while the Ninja is getting nothing new. The expansion is happening for every job in the game except Ninja.

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The reaction seems to be that people are assuming that the Ninja changes aren't significant because they aren't flashy.

We have no idea how the changes will play out in practice yet. It could very well be

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We haven't made any drastic changes to ninja.

However, currently there are more times where you continuously use Huton which caused many situations where other ninjutsu wasn't being used as effectively. Therefore you'll be able to extend the effect of Huton. By combining new weapon skills in the rotation you’ll be able to maintain the Huton effect, so you can now use ninjutsu other than Huton to output much higher DPS.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...94#post2975294

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

The reaction seems to be that people are assuming that the Ninja changes aren't significant because they aren't flashy.

We have no idea how the changes will play out in practice yet. It could very well be


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...94#post2975294

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If they give us the option to use Huton once at the start of the fight, and then keep it up for 2-3+ minutes a NIN's DPS would be much higher, and the class would be much more fun honestly (casting Huton again and again isn't fun, reminds me Ret Paladins pre-WoD). Wouldn't exactly change how it's played all that much though.

Because people just want to complain and cry about stuff, they conveniently ignore that the ability to refresh Huton via skills lets you use Raiton more often and only requires you to use a single 3-step Ninjutsu, so you don't have to cut into your GCD as often.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Because people just want to complain and cry about stuff, they conveniently ignore that the ability to refresh Huton via skills lets you use Raiton more often and only requires you to use a single 3-step Ninjutsu, so you don't have to cut into your GCD as often.

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No one is ignoring it, it's just not that valuable to me (and probably others) as expansion content. It's literally more of the same thing we've been doing for the past few months. A quality of life fix that is something you'd expect in a patch not a £44 expansion.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Because people just want to complain and cry about stuff, they conveniently ignore that the ability to refresh Huton via skills lets you use Raiton more often and only requires you to use a single 3-step Ninjutsu, so you don't have to cut into your GCD as often.

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somewhere in all that there are good intentions, it's up to us to sift through the b.s. to get to them.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Because people just want to complain and cry about stuff, they conveniently ignore that the ability to refresh Huton via skills lets you use Raiton more often and only requires you to use a single 3-step Ninjutsu, so you don't have to cut into your GCD as often.

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Honestly I just want them to change something with ninjutsu sure not having to recast Huton more often will be a dps increase to anyone with near perfect latency for the fact they will get more Raiton in but those who have latency issues have to cast fuma shuriken. and it will only give them more shuriken casts since Raiton Cuts too much into the GCD while yes its a dps increase still for them its majorly less so. It exacerbates the issue between people will great latency and people who get bad mudra lag. Where as with monk/dragoon its not as big of an issue if you're a good player since you're not trying to fit 3 .5s skills into a gcd.

I can fit Raiton into the GCD so while its not an issue for me it is a issue for a lot of people

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Originally Posted by Colorful

If they give us the option to use Huton once at the start of the fight, and then keep it up for 2-3+ minutes a NIN's DPS would be much higher, and the class would be much more fun honestly (casting Huton again and again isn't fun, reminds me Ret Paladins pre-WoD). Wouldn't exactly change how it's played all that much though.

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Casting Raiton again and again isn't fun, either. That'll be the only result of not having to use Fuuton so much. Raiton felt amazing when NIN was new, but when they nerfed it by making poisons apply only to Physical attacks, Raiton became... well, nice, but it's not awesome anymore. So instead of Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton-Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton we'll probably get Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton-Raiton-Suiton-Raiton-Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton-Raiton-Suiton-Raiton-Fuuton and so on. Big deal.

So MNK and DRG each get a new awesome mechanic, while we get to cast Raiton more often.

not sure why people are complaining. Ninja is a very strong job since day one and still strong today.

SE always do good jobs when it comes to making every job balanced and I don't think they'll make ninjas weaker in HW. even if they do they'll fix it sooner than later.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

not sure why people are complaining.

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Perhaps you should read their posts then, because most people who aren't happy with what they heard from the Live Letter do state their reasons.
It's also not so much about being worried that we'll be a lot weaker than other melees, it's about other melees getting new, awesome mechanics while we only get more of the same nerfed Raiton - and get to deal with positionals on top. NIN is the only job for which they not only didn't announce anything exciting, they even mentioned that we'll get positional requirements slapped on our skills. That part doesn't bother me much, but it's still not good news.

And what makes you think SE always do "good jobs" making every job balanced - and if they don't, they'll fix it "sooner than later"? SMNs had to wait quite a damn long time for their rework, did they not?

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Casting Raiton again and again isn't fun, either. That'll be the only result of not having to use Fuuton so much. Raiton felt amazing when NIN was new, but when they nerfed it by making poisons apply only to Physical attacks, Raiton became... well, nice, but it's not awesome anymore. So instead of Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton-Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton we'll probably get Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton-Raiton-Suiton-Raiton-Fuuton-Suiton-Raiton-Raiton-Suiton-Raiton-Fuuton and so on. Big deal.

So MNK and DRG each get a new awesome mechanic, while we get to cast Raiton more often.

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You don't like the changes(even though they are still a month off and you nor i nor anyone else knows how they actually work...), but at the very least it is more Raiton AND more weapon-skill damage. That can be downplayed as much as ppl want to, but could a very nice boost in damage.

I have nowhere near perfect gear, but my Raitons hit on par with my Aeolian Edge-normal combo'd damage and crit'd damage. More Raitons is a very good thing. And that boost will be in conjunction with Haste from Huton being up close to full time. I'm sorry, if all i have to do in try to remember shift around a mob a bit to get what will be a significant boost to my damage, i'm gonna strap on my dancing shoes and dance.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

You don't like the changes(even though they are still a month off and you nor i nor anyone else knows how they actually work...), but at the very least it is more Raiton AND more weapon-skill damage. That can be downplayed as much as ppl want to, but could a very nice boost in damage.

I have nowhere near perfect gear, but my Raitons hit on par with my Aeolian Edge-normal combo'd damage and crit'd damage. More Raitons is a very good thing. And that boost will be in conjunction with Haste from Huton being up close to full time. I'm sorry, if all i have to do in try to remember shift around a mob a bit to get what will be a significant boost to my damage, i'm gonna strap on my dancing shoes and dance.

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Uhm, no it's not more Raiton AND more weapon-skill damage. Not having to refresh Fuuton quite so often only amounts to 0,5 seconds of extra time per minute, as you'll be casting a 2mudra Ninjutsu instead of a 3mudra one. Fuuton was *already* supposed to be up full time. If you didn't keep it up all the time, then you weren't playing your class right.

Also, if your Raiton deals the same damage as your Aeolian Edge, that means you were either not using a poison, or you did not have Dancing Edge up. With poison and Dancing Edge enabled, Aeolian Edge is plenty stronger than Raiton - poison alone already brings it to 384 potency as opposed to Raiton's which stays at 360. If you add the slashing resistance to that, Raiton feels like a joke in comparison.

Yes, more Raiton means more damage. However, Raiton is nothing new or exciting. For the other classes, they showed new and exciting stuff. For us, they just announced more of the same.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

1)Uhm, no it's not more Raiton AND more weapon-skill damage. Not having to refresh Fuuton quite so often only amounts to 0,5 seconds of extra time per minute, as you'll be casting a 2mudra Ninjutsu instead of a 3mudra one. Fuuton was *already* supposed to be up full time. If you didn't keep it up all the time, then you weren't playing your class right.

2)Also, if your Raiton deals the same damage as your Aeolian Edge, that means you were either not using a poison, or you did not have Dancing Edge up. With poison and Dancing Edge enabled, Aeolian Edge is plenty stronger than Raiton - poison alone already brings it to 384 potency as opposed to Raiton's which stays at 360. If you add the slashing resistance to that, Raiton feels like a joke in comparison.

3)Yes, more Raiton means more damage. However, Raiton is nothing new or exciting. For the other classes, they showed new and exciting stuff. For us, they just announced more of the same.

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@1-I'm not gonna do a second by second breakdown with you, but i know i lose time that i could be doing more dmg by practically going full stop when its time to refresh Huton-because i HATE lagging through a cast then having to burn that Kass to reapply instead of using it for another ninjutsu. When i can set Huton and almost forget it, my efficiency and dmg are going up. Moving right past the veiled jab..

@2-Numbers out of my ass: say a regular AE hits for ~1100 and crits for~1600 on a boss. Raiton is hitting for about 900+ and crit'ing for 1300+. Like i said, out of my ass but not too far off i think, and yes i keep a poison on all the time for goodness' sake. I said on par in my post above, not the same, but on par and i stand by it. And i honestly don't bother with DE when i'm with a WAR in party, which is most of the time since i almost always have one i pt with me.

@3-This is the root issue i think. NIN is one of the best jobs out of the gate IMO. And apparently SE is of the same mindset because they went so far as to say it didn't need much work to handle the 3.0+ content. Sorry if i think that is pretty cool and find refinement changes/additions are something to be excited for. I'm old, i'll take substance and continued functionality over flash for the sake of flash any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

@2-Numbers out of my ass: say a regular AE hits for ~1100 and crits for~1600 on a boss. Raiton is hitting for about 900+ and crit'ing for 1300+. Like i said, out of my ass but not too far off i think, and yes i keep a poison on all the time for goodness' sake. I said on par in my post above, not the same, but on par and i stand by it. And i honestly don't bother with DE when i'm with a WAR in party, which is most of the time since i almost always have one i pt with me.

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Yeah, you said "on par". Do you know what "on par" means? It means "being essentially equal or equivalent; equally balanced", "just as good as" etc.
It does not mean "only slightly worse than". 900 is not on par with 1100. 1300 is not on par with 1600. You can stand by it all you want, but that doesn't make it correct.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

I have nowhere near perfect gear, but my Raitons hit on par with my Aeolian Edge-normal combo'd damage and crit'd damage. More Raitons is a very good thing. And that boost will be in conjunction with Haste from Huton being up close to full time.

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This is a fallacy though, you are assuming more Raiton is good from the position of a pre-heavensward Ninja.

Post heavensward will be balanced under the assumption that you have a third Raiton, it won't simply be free damage.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Yeah, you said "on par". Do you know what "on par" means? It means "being essentially equal or equivalent; equally balanced", "just as good as" etc.
It does not mean "only slightly worse than". 900 is not on par with 1100. 1300 is not on par with 1600. You can stand by it all you want, but that doesn't make it correct.

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My bad then i suppose. When i use that phrase i mean 'around the same'. i didn't mean 'exactly the same'. But then i did throw out representative numbers to try and clarify any misunderstanding in the thought i was was trying to convey, i thought the idea wouldn't be that abstract, so meh and again apologies in any event.

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Originally Posted by GrimoireOfAlice

This is a fallacy though, you are assuming more Raiton is good from the position of a pre-heavensward Ninja.

Post heavensward will be balanced under the assumption that you have a third Raiton, it won't simply be free damage.

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And? Whether the freed up extra CD on mudras is used for more Raiton or any other appropriate to the situation ninjustu is considered 'free' or 'required' by the theorycrafters and that ilk-its a good thing in my book.

I get what you are saying, but it is really irrelevant imo.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

and it will only give them more shuriken casts since Raiton Cuts too much into the GCD while yes its a dps increase still for them its majorly less so.

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At my current gear levels, an extra Raiton every minute (if I could fit it into the GCD, which I can't really) would be something like an extra 15 dps. An extra Fuma Shuriken, on the other hand, would be about 12 dps. I'm not sure why you think this would be "majorly less" dps.

blah blah blah early morning non coffee math and testing can see the stupid mistakes in quotes below lol

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

snips

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yeah as the time pass, the difference of damage between raiton and fuma will increase. indeed fuma is less problematic at use... but the loose on long fight can't be ignored.

same with the futur positional, we can ignore it and probably deal a decent dps without following it. but that will be the difference between a good and a bad player. in high level raid, people don't allows this sort of difference, when 10 dps can means not reach the dps cap needed before the enrage.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

yeah as the time pass, the difference of damage between raiton and fuma will increase. indeed fuma is less problematic at use... but the loose on long fight can't be ignored.

same with the futur positional, we can ignore it and probably deal a decent dps without following it. but that will be the difference between a good and a bad player. in high level raid, people don't allows this sort of difference, when 10 dps can means not reach the dps cap needed before the enrage.

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There is a difference between positionals which don't suffer for any major lag problems and then there is ninjutsu which is knows to have lag issues.