Protesting Frontlines

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I mentioned it literally four posts up, and I think somewhere in another thread a few times.

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If you are referring to post #115, that is just saying the same thing I am. What I am asking is that those who want Morale removed to make it a level playing field haven't made an argument (that I saw, which is what I wanted to know where the post was) about how removing PvP gear but leaving the AP is a level playing field. Sorry if I didn't get across clearer with my original post.

Gonna say it again, I've played FFXIV's Wolves den with official rules. And I've also tried it with an ilvl cap.

ilvl cap and no PvP gear is the superior of the two. I put 6 months into my PvP gear. Still rather front lines be fun, over me melting under geared players.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

If you are referring to post #115, that is just saying the same thing I am. What I am asking is that those who want Morale removed to make it a level playing field haven't made an argument (that I saw, which is what I wanted to know where the post was) about how removing PvP gear but leaving the AP is a level playing field. Sorry if I didn't get across clearer with my original post.

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Ah, OK. Yeah, everyone has been skipping over that point whenever I bring it up (when they're not just resorting to out right insults).

I guess there is a case for not having Morale because it'll make matters worse, but you can balance Morale out by giving people a Morale buff. You can't really do the same with AP, unless they rework the system so you earn AP in battle (that would actually be interesting, though might not work with face paced combat).

Personally, I'd rather SE focus on not making it a level playing field for everyone, but instead making it a balanced one. Mix new PvPers with old ones and let there actually be a difference; every team has a balanced amount of people who are completely new, and people who have high Morale and high AP. If your teams new players get owned by your enemies high Morale players, it's either because they strayed off like a fool, or your teams high Morale players were derping.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

ilvl cap and no PvP gear is the superior of the two. I put 6 months into my PvP gear. Still rather front lines be fun, over me melting under geared players.

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And if the under geared players were given a buff that gives them a Morale boost? Then you'd have PvE players with, lets say, an equivalent to i65 Morale. PvP players in i70. PvP players in i90/100 capped down to i80. Would the difference in Morale there be enough to allow you to crush the under geared still?

And again, take into consideration the spread of players in a 24v24v24 match. You might be able to crush under geared players, but the PvPers on your opponents side can do the same to yours. I'll admit, that's something that can very quickly turn sour for new players, but it's still something to consider that nobody seems to be. Everyone is looking at Frontlines in terms of Wolves' Den mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Gonna say it again, I've played FFXIV's Wolves den with official rules. And I've also tried it with an ilvl cap.

ilvl cap and no PvP gear is the superior of the two. I put 6 months into my PvP gear. Still rather front lines be fun, over me melting under geared players.

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Even if everyone is naked, how are you handling the discrepancy in AP points? Are you forcing them to reset all their points? I guess what I'm asking is if, if you have one group who is all r40, and one group is all r1, and all other variables being equal, you still have an advantage on one side.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

If you are referring to post #115, that is just saying the same thing I am. What I am asking is that those who want Morale removed to make it a level playing field haven't made an argument (that I saw, which is what I wanted to know where the post was) about how removing PvP gear but leaving the AP is a level playing field. Sorry if I didn't get across clearer with my original post.

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Roughly 1/5th of my matches fought were with ilvl cap, out of 3k.

Running my event, without it. Roughly helped me get 20-30 people into PvP.

Runningy event with an ilvl cap, attracted roughly 150 people to my link shell in 3 weeks. Had very, very good feedback from all involved except those who wanted to use their gear as a crutch for the reasons they were losing.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Roughly 1/5th of my matches fought were with ilvl cap, out of 3k.

Running my event, without it. Roughly helped me get 20-30 people into PvP.

Runningy event with an ilvl cap, attracted roughly 150 people to my link shell in 3 weeks. Had very, very good feedback from all involved except those who wanted to use their gear as a crutch for the reasons they were losing.

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See my previous post. I am asking under the assumption the morale is removed, but even if it wasn't, it was covered under all other variables being equal. So the only difference is the AP points. Sorry if I'm missing it, but I don't see how you are accounting for this discrepancy when making the teams.

Ahh at first we dealt with them by asking our higher ranked healers exclude using skills that the other healer didn't. Work OK.....but not the best.

We would also ask melee not to use fetterward versus new healers. Made it impossible for them to learn.

Then we stopped dealing with AP differences. It matters way less than you think if everyone is geared the same.

But, that is also due to how I handle match making. All in all though, AP discrepancies didn't matter a week into our event, both teams even on wins/losses if everyone wasn't completely new to PvP.

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Originally Posted by Edenlys

For exemple, all healers will have 3800 hp and same amount of mind (even if one have full mind jewel and other have full vitality jewel), same thing for tank with vita or strengh jewel, they will have same stats...

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You clearly don't understand how ilvl syncing works, it doesn't even work like this in pure lvl syncing...
Your gear stats will become lvled to the same as if they were of that ilvl, there's will be no static stat cap on your character, if you use str accessories you have more str and if you use vit acessories you have more vit.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

is the discrepancy in AP available to a R40 vs a person stepping into PvP for the first time and how that is a "level playing field".

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That aside, there's no measure of comparison between the advantage gear gives over abilities earned through the ranks, also it's better for multiclassing since you can just reset and don't have to grind the gear all over again

There's not even anything to discuss over what is more influential over the course of a match between abilities and gear, just try it out for yourself plenty of us already know the answer.

*Edit Came off way meaner than what was my intention, apologies*

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Originally Posted by Pibz

QQ more Wintrader.
That aside, there's no measure of comparison between the advantage gear gives over abilities earned through the ranks, also it's better for multiclassing since you can just reset and don't have to grind the gear all over again (though i guess that wouldn't be that hard for you huh?).

There's not even anything to discuss over what is more influential over the course of a match between abilities and gear, just try it out for yourself plenty of us already know the answer.

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I'm not sure where the insults are from, but if it makes you feel better, go for it. I've started getting back into PvP now that my group has had T9 on farm for a while. While others in my group decide to play other games, I decided to pick back up PvP. I have yet to insult anyone, and just because your opinion is different than mine doesn't mean I can't respect your position. I'm sorry if you felt an honest question of how a R40 vs a R1 in terms of AP over the course of a 30 minute fight could be considered an uneven playing field. I honestly couldn't care less about morale since I do PvP as something casually, and actually look forward to objective based PvP than arena, and was just trying to understand where you were coming from.

Nalien, Wolves Den is only short if the teams are mismatched. Some of have been in PvP matches that featured 2 limit breaks from 1 team.

If you think a short cool down is less important in a shortergame mode over a longer one. I'm not sure we can have an proper conversation about this.

The length of the match matters not. Because the damage rotations still end up the same regardless of the time of theatch. I.e. you can only do so much damage in 6 mins.

I've played over 600 matches with an ilvl cap. After the first 50 we stopped focusing on ranks/ability balance, because after we removed gear discrepancies, we realized they didn't need to focus on AP variance.

Making morale useless, and boosting under geared players, is the exact same thing. There is no difference.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Nalien, Wolves Den is only short if the teams are mismatched. Some of have been in PvP matches that featured 2 limit breaks from 1 team.

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And most matches are mismatched. I have been in some long matches before, but they're incredibly rare if you actually queue rather than setting up matches. When you're playing with friends in your own little bubble, sure matches will be longer and more enjoyable, but Duty Finder matches simply are not like that.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

If you think a short cool down is less important in a shortergame mode over a longer one. I'm not sure we can have an proper conversation about this.

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Shorter cooldowns are next to worthless, when the majority of your matches don't go over three minutes. You're setting up your own matches against friends, that results in an even pairing which prolongs matches. Again, most matches are not like that, so for most matches, the cooldown reduction is worthless. I'm not going to set AP in that reduction when my matches don't last two minutes, let alone three. I will almost always set it in something that provides an instant bonus that will end the match faster.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

The length of the match matters not. Because the damage rotations still end up the same regardless of the time of theatch. I.e. you can only do so much damage in 6 mins.

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I'm really not sure what your group is putting AP on, but in a six minute match with recasts dropped on one said, and no AP on the other, that is a very real difference. One side gets all those abilities twice, the other gets them once. I'm not even got to calculate the amount of additional DPS and mitigation that would provide, it should just be plainly apparent to everybody. If one side has AP, one side doesn't, and the match exceeds five minutes, then the difference those recast traits provide is very real.

I'm really not sure what to say to you if you don't think that isn't unbalanced. One person can use their skills twice, the other can only use them once. That is a very obvious advantage, which really should be being treated the same as Morale, all things considered. Regardless of the effect, one side is getting a very clear advantage over the other.

People seem to be against giving PvE players a boost of Morale to even out players and make Morale less of a deciding factor, yet they seem to be fine with AP offering a similar advantage. I really don't get it. People are practically demanding Morale be gone to level the playing field, yet they're fine with leaving something in which by its very nature gives a small advantage to players. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Either you want a level playing field, or you don't. If the bonus a difference in AP provides is so minor, why are people against Morale so much? Why out right remove it when you could just make it so the difference between Morale is no more as powerful as a difference in AP? Why does it have to go, when they could just rebalance it closer to something we're all apparently fine with?

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Your trying to argue against me, but now your arguing your own points.

Giving morale to players without PvP armor, means they still have one more substat than you.

Taking morale out of front lines, means they have 1 more substat than you.

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Read my earlier posts; I'm suggesting a Morale buff that puts you around i65, which puts you at a slight disadvantage, even with the additional stat. I also suggested adjustments to Morale in general, and the progression of Rank/Marks, to facilitate a less annoying grind/advantage.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Either way, at this point your suggested fix isn't better than SE's. Arguing against AP but for Morale is.....just a spiteful conversation...think I'm done here O.o

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Don't mistake my intent. I'm not arguing against AP and for Morale here. I'm simply asking; Why is an AP advantage allowed, and a Morale one not? I'm not arguing we shouldn't have AP, but keep Morale, I'm simply wondering why one advantage is allowed and another not. It is a genuine question aside from the debate of Morale.

People who are against Morale, apparently in any form since they disagree with any suggestion that would adjust Morale, claim to be against it because it provides a level playing field. OK, I can understand that. The thing is though, a level playing field, by its very definition, should be level. How then, is a difference in AP being allowed? Why is nobody against AP? Why are you defending AP?

It does not allow a level playing field, that's just simple maths. If I have AP and you don't, then I have an advantage. In a 15 minute match, I get to use my abilities 5 times, you get to use them 3 times, how is that level? I'm firing of skills more often. My skills have greater potency. That is an advantage. That is something I have, that my opponent does not. That is a text book case of one side having an advantage, the very thing we are apparently happy to see the back end of Morale for.

Is it because it isn't a significant advantage? I mean, I see it as quite significant, since I'm quite literally getting more uses out of PvP skills than my opponent (while my team is getting hit with Full Swings effect once, I'm hitting their team with it twice), but I wont disagree if you say it's insignificant. Point is, it is still an advantage. We are not on the glorious level playing field the removal of Morale promises if someone has an advantage. If it's OK because it's insignificant, then why are people so against any adjustment to Morale?

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Originally Posted by Tandy

I think I might finally understand how to explain something to you Nalien. Hopefully this might make sense so you understand the other side.

A pvp stat enhances your innate damage AND your innate defense. Every ability and auto attack you give and receive benefits from it. This means taking less dmg, giving more and being easier to heal. All in one uber stat! It's also usually an exponential increase,the more you have the better it gets. Now imagine in one year, two years time how much morale will be in gear? It's always on, 100% uptime means it has a higher weight than any other upgrade to abilities, cool downs or other things.

Reducing one abiliites cool down by 2 minutes? Not anywhere near as good is it? That's why the increases to abilities and stuff are good advancements and morale isn't.

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Oh, I understand that it's potentially not as big an advantage, my point is that it is an advantage though.

From my position it just seems incredibly hypocritical to go around praising the removal of Morale in creating a level playing field, while simultaneously being absolutely OK with another form of advantage. I mean, I've commonly been suggesting changing Morale and leveling the gap with boosts, to make it much less of an advantage, but that apparently doesn't matter. PvP gear and stats are just innately bad, no matter how you try to work them, but traits are perfectly fine. Again, it comes off as very hypocritical. It seems that literally no suggestion I make for Morale can change peoples minds because it would "be unfair and give players an advantage", but at the same time we're all perfectly fine with there actually being an advantage with traits. So what is it; Are we against having advantages or not?

As for the persistence and progression of Morale;

Firstly, the additional stats from traits aren't persistent? Morale could be exactly the same as them, I'd actually rather see them removed and Morale replace them in potency.
Secondly, if they even bother bringing PvP gear beyond i100, they can just do the same as what I've already suggested; in a i100 PvP event, provide a Echo type buff for players with no Morale.

They probably shouldn't raise PvP gear anymore though, and that probably seems against everything I've said previously about progression keeping the PvP community alive, which I guess it is, but once you've been doing PvP, once you've obtained those Ranks and gear, you're in. If you go out and earn a toy (in this case gear/AP) you're going to want to play with it; that's part of the reason people are even upset about their Morale doing nothing. Rather than continuing to raise the ranks and adding new gear, they should instead just focus on new game modes and new Jobs, that partly adds a new reason to grind (who doesn't want their Ninja to be the bat man?). Progression should simply be there to initially draw people in and get them invested. Once they're invested there is little need for it.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Just for a reference here, I remember a time in that "other" game (WoW) where a fight between equally geared players would be measured in minutes....and a fight between a geared player and someone purposefully going in with NO pvp gear to illustrate how broken resilience was lasting maybe 7 seconds. Yes, a skilled pvp player with no gear who literally lasted less than 10 seconds who when geared could make anyone work for a kill. That's not even in the same universe as a cool down reduction is it?

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What about this example means they cannot adjust and rebalance Morale? I said it before, but it really does seem like nothing could redeem it in peoples eyes; I could suggest making it so 100 Morale is equal to +1 Defense and +1 Auto-attack potency, and it would still be bad. Meanwhile, if my team gets an additional 10% damage on your healer because I put AP in Full Swing and your team has no AP, that's fair.

If Resilience is broken, if Morale is broken, I'd fix them or throw them out completely. I said it before, but Morale can either work in Wolves' Den and Frontlines, or it can be removed completely. I'd actually argue Morale is more of an issue in Wolves' Den than it could ever be in Frontlines, just because of how the numbers will balance out with Frontlines.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

I guess people see morale as bad because it does everything. It's a "wonder stat". Nothing else in game does as much as it does. It makes everything better. And even if you made it so 100 points translated to +1 after so many patches and gear upgrades you get to the point you have 5000 morale. Stat inflation is an argument for another thread though lol. People kind of expect super stats and huge gear gaps in arena purely cause the ranked stuff is a lot of e-peen bragging on who's best. I wouldn't care if they got rid of it totally though and changed the existing gear to have a different stat on it.

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May as well have it here, since we're just editing (<3 you daily limit).

Since it's a wonder stat, you having it is immediately offset by me having it as well. The stat is void in such a scenario; if we have equal Morale, there is no difference. Likewise, if we don't have equal Morale, but just a small difference, the stat is far less effective. Stats like Morale only become a problem when there is a significant difference in two peoples amounts; when one person has a lot, and another has none. Balance it around that concept and just go "If you have Morale below this amount, we'll give you a boost", like I've suggested. For Frontlines that would currently mean; i90/100 PvP capped down to i80, i70 PvP, and i80 PvE given an i65 amount of Morale. That difference in Morale might be too much, but in that case you just rescale it so that it isn't. Ideally it should be no different than boosting your stats with AP, since that is something we all seem to be fine with.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I'm not sure where the insults are from, but if it makes you feel better, go for it. I've started getting back into PvP now that my group has had T9 on farm for a while. While others in my group decide to play other games, I decided to pick back up PvP. I have yet to insult anyone, and just because your opinion is different than mine doesn't mean I can't respect your position. I'm sorry if you felt an honest question of how a R40 vs a R1 in terms of AP over the course of a 30 minute fight could be considered an uneven playing field. I honestly couldn't care less about morale since I do PvP as something casually, and actually look forward to objective based PvP than arena, and was just trying to understand where you were coming from.

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Hmm
I'm sorry then, didn't want to make it sound insulting at all, if anything it was more of a joke than anything else and a setup to the 2nd point, but yeah it came off way harsher than i intended, so don't take it too seriously lol.
As for the points i made i stand by them though, abilities have way less of an influence than gear in PvP, and having gear equalized gives us the possibility(gearing up several classes is pretty much impossible through regular means at the moment) to actually multiclass at any point.
Again sorry for answering you like that, was way out of line :/.

Not worth responding to most of that..

3k matches. 600 in my bubble. I've seen matches last 30 mins in 30s, 40s, and 50's. Inside and outside the bubble.

The difference is I have the bubble O.o. So your making up supposed situations and talking about the imbalance of them.

While a person who has been in the situation, and has tested it out over the course of 2 months, is telling you flat out AP difference account for very little if gear is balanced. There are three skills where having 1-2 upgrades are on them are insane, but low ranks just up grade the best upgrades first O.o

You go on to argue about how I don't think one person having half cool down versus not half cool down makes me an insane person :o?

Not sure why you shifted the conversation, but you said fast cool downs were less effective in wolves den. Because the rounds are short. My point was and still is...it affects them both equally. All it does is determine DPS/Mitigation.

Don't warp me debunking your statement of AP difference being more apparent in one mode versus the other into me making another statement lol.

Your trying to argue against me, but now your arguing your own points.

Giving morale to players without PvP armor, means they still have one more substat than you.

Taking morale out of front lines, means they have 1 more substat than you.

Your trying to argue against AP differences but for keeping morale? To be very specific, anyone with even a little analaysis skills can see this reeks of spite and hurt feelings.

So without slinging insults, or making up supposed situations about my event or what sort of major imbalance AP variance causes.

Don't make it about me not knowing what I am talking about this time nailene.

I've pugged PvP from day 1 to now: Double Rez/barrage/blm days, the decent "golden era", the death of good PvP, and even PvP today, pugging right now(wait 17min, average wait time less than 5 mins.)

I had multiple matches this week in pug matches that last to LB. At 34+, it may as well be a closed circuit bubble, it's always the same 30 people, we know each others habits, matches can go on for a bit.

Either way, my event still tested this. And it applies to both wolves den and front lines, because it affects damage/mitigation.

The results are still the same. If the gear is the same, AP, isn't that much of an issue. And with the new update, it's even less of an issue. The big key moves that really change things get upgraded first now, most of the other upgrades, are accents O.o. There are few skills I actually max out. Low level players learn about things quick, they get told every little thing they do wrong after each match :o

Either way, at this point your suggested fix isn't better than SE's. Arguing against AP but for Morale is.....just a spiteful conversation...think I'm done here O.o

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Originally Posted by Kantei

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3k matches, but aren't you the one that sets up those "friendlies"? It's easy to rack up a ton of matches that way and its borderline win-trading.

You go way out of your way to create a "easy" and "fun" environment for new pvpers, and although commendable, it actually does more harm than good. We're not here to ease babies into a competitive style play, we're here to play against other players in direct competition. Gear, abilities, and skill should all come into play. To ease newer players in there make it easier to grab pvp gear & ranks.

I wouldn't be caught dead in a friendly, because it's probably filled with crappy players, half-a$ pvpers, and a few skilled that get held back by the rest of their team, this is how I imagine frontlines will be without gear.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Don't mistake my intent. I'm not arguing against AP and for Morale here. I'm simply asking; Why is an AP advantage allowed, and a Morale one not? I'm not arguing we shouldn't have AP, but keep Morale, I'm simply wondering why one advantage is allowed and another not. It is a genuine question aside from the debate of Morale.

People who are against Morale, apparently in any form since they disagree with any suggestion that would adjust Morale, claim to be against it because it provides a level playing field. OK, I can understand that. The thing is though, a level playing field, by its very definition, should be level. How then, is a difference in AP being allowed? Why is nobody against AP? Why are you defending AP?

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the reason why they defend AP , but shame morale is quite simple :they do not realize yet how truly important aps are. most players tries to max out their pvp skills before hitting their traits, but i assure once FL comes out, you will hear how "ap is "unbalanced" and needs to be either fully maxed out or restricted to base level in FL. see all these people who doesnt believe this clearly never maxed out their traits and used it in the 30/40 queues. go ahead guys and just do this, i assure you you will see the very clear and overwhelming advantage of AP.just today, i went on a winning streak in the 30s/40s ques just using my mnk,war (not mrd) and smn with just their main trait (on in the war case full str) maxed out and hot hell did the range dps and healer melted.if FL is truly supposed to be a "easy going everyone is equal" battlefield then AP do need to be fully maxed or restricted to base level. also materia need to be cancel out also due the fact you are getting a little bit more stats then everyone else. just make everything completely identical and equal and let skill alone be the determining factor.

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Originally Posted by Rawk

3k matches, but aren't you the one that sets up those "friendlies"? It's easy to rack up a ton of matches that way and its borderline win-trading.

You go way out of your way to create a "easy" and "fun" environment for new pvpers, and although commendable, it actually does more harm than good. We're not here to ease babies into a competitive style play, we're here to play against other players in direct competition. Gear, abilities, and skill should all come into play. To ease newer players in there make it easier to grab pvp gear & ranks.

I wouldn't be caught dead in a friendly, because it's probably filled with crappy players, half-a$ pvpers, and a few skilled that get held back by the rest of their team, this is how I imagine frontlines will be without gear.

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Wow tell us how you really feel! God forbid someone try to make a game FUN, it might be the hallmark of the destruction of the entire internet e-peen contests!

I think I might finally understand how to explain something to you Nalien. Hopefully this might make sense so you understand the other side.

A pvp stat enhances your innate damage AND your innate defense. Every ability and auto attack you give and receive benefits from it. This means taking less dmg, giving more and being easier to heal. All in one uber stat! It's also usually an exponential increase,the more you have the better it gets. Now imagine in one year, two years time how much morale will be in gear? It's always on, 100% uptime means it has a higher weight than any other upgrade to abilities, cool downs or other things.

Reducing one abiliites cool down by 2 minutes? Not anywhere near as good is it? That's why the increases to abilities and stuff are good advancements and morale isn't.



As far as for or against advantages.....I'm fine with normal, rank based advantages within reason. It's the within reason that is the sticking point between you and the ones who don't agree. I see an ability having shorter cool down as not put of bounds by the sheer fact it HAS a cool down. Morale is like taking an ability and removing the cool down totally, which isn't fair.

If you had ever played other MMO games with pvp stats you would understand. But I'm betting this is your first one, so you don't have the past experience in seeing how broken it can really get.....which is, to be blunt, extremely fucking broken.

Just for a reference here, I remember a time in that "other" game (WoW) where a fight between equally geared players would be measured in minutes....and a fight between a geared player and someone purposefully going in with NO pvp gear to illustrate how broken resilience was lasting maybe 7 seconds. Yes, a skilled pvp player with no gear who literally lasted less than 10 seconds who when geared could make anyone work for a kill. That's not even in the same universe as a cool down reduction is it?

Progression and new toys are always something you should get in pvp, but there are ways like titles, vanity gear, mounts and perks that make it still feel worthwhile to rank up but don't make it so your damn near a god against a new player. Some advantage is welcome, within reason. People calling no morale being fair and balanced don't expect everyone to have the same stats/ hp/mp and everything. They just want everyone to have a fair shot at success.

I guess people see morale as bad because it does everything. It's a "wonder stat". Nothing else in game does as much as it does. It makes everything better. And even if you made it so 100 points translated to +1 after so many patches and gear upgrades you get to the point you have 5000 morale. Stat inflation is an argument for another thread though lol. People kind of expect super stats and huge gear gaps in arena purely cause the ranked stuff is a lot of e-peen bragging on who's best. I wouldn't care if they got rid of it totally though and changed the existing gear to have a different stat on it.

From a purely fiscal and financial perspective which would you do if you were in charge? Make it so everyone had gear and ability upgrades that scaled across the board, that you simply add new tiers too....or design a system to constantly scale under geared players up to near where geared players were just so this one stat could exist on gear as you upgraded. Both do the same thing at the end of the day, but one is part of already financed game design (normal upgrades) and one is designing a brand new system to be yet another thing you have to maintain and cost more money? If everyone always has morale near each other, then what's the use of having morale. It's why it's considered a flawed stat period. It's either worthless or overpowered. It should have never been used in first place if they didn't want it, but what's done is done as in many MMO's who made the mistake.

Knowing how SE handles things in this game, expect this to only be the FIRST tier of frontlines introduced. No doubt that SE will "observe" how the community handles frontlines for a month or two, and then decide to put out more frontlines with higher ilvl syncs and other stat restrictions/liberties.

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

Knowing how SE handles things in this game, expect this to only be the FIRST tier of frontlines introduced. No doubt that SE will "observe" how the community handles frontlines for a month or two, and then decide to put out more frontlines with higher ilvl syncs and other stat restrictions/liberties.

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I'm really hoping Frontlines gather enough support so that this becomes more of a development priority. If this is as fun as it looks, I don't know if I'll be able to wait another year to get another one!

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...1db2da455c74e7

Completely off topic, but am I the only one who wants to wander around Frontlines, rather than actually participate at first? Looks like such an amazing zone that you potentially wont get to see all of unless you change Grand Company and lose your Rank (which means nothing apparently, so whatever). Maybe matches will end up so one sided that we can jump around enemy camps and kill them as they respawn though. Damn that zone looks nice though.

im ok with ilvl sync, but Morale gear should be taken into account, what if i want to do frontlines and i dont like arenas? why would i grind marks on frontlines to buy pvp gear that is only usable on arenas . if i dont like arenas i end up wasting inventory space :s and time

Ehh more random insults and more random crap that has nothing to do with anything lol. I swear most of these posts seem like they are written in crayon.

If gear is equal AP differences are minimal, plain and simple.

Last nights set of friendlies:
Had a rank 3 healer, completely stomping in a rank 27 healer.
50 cap friendlies: 6/16/2014
Team A: Tank 33, Melee 27, ranged 19, healer 3
Team B: Tank 27, Melee 26, ranged 17, Healer 27.

The 27 healer for team B, usually plays SMN. Team A's was new to the shell and PvP. The brand new healer, stamped the other team in after a little coaching. All they needed to know, is what skills to use when O.o.

Again, AP accounts for very little if the gear is even. Over 2 months of testing this. Stop making up supposed situations that you are testing with people with mismatched gear O.o

And to Rawk, be sure about what you are saying. My event does not win trade, nor create weak players. You have the wrong idea.

I heard all of balmung win trades, many players on my server fled yours to get away from it. You don't see me spreading rumors about you do you? No I wouldn't do something as stupid as share my opinion without knowing the facts O.o

Sad sad community we have on this website when it's easier to have a conversation on gamefaqs or red dit lol.

If you want to show off and be the best, do the arena style PvP that's already there. I tried PvP and got stomped on. I've no idea whether or not I lacked skill or gear, I just died constantly.

Frontlines however appears to level the playing field which sounds good to me!

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Originally Posted by Kantei

snip

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How long do the matches generally last?

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Again, AP accounts for very little if the gear is even.

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And again, that is still an advantage. One player has an advantage over another because of superior/faster skills, it doesn't matter how much of an advantage it is, what matters is that it is there. Why is it OK to allow this advantage, but any suggestion for Morale is instantly shot down just because it's Morale? I've even suggested taking the stats traits away from AP and making Morale equivalent to it, that is literally no difference from a non-miss matched gear but miss-matched AP scenario, but it's wrong because Morale?

The fact that, unless they add new crafted Morale gear, you earn Morale alongside earning AP through Ranking up, makes the difference even more inane in my eyes. Heck, if everyone is getting Morale gear for the same difference AP provides, then there is no miss-match of gear; everyone is in the same uniform.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as insulting, I'm really not trying to, but it just seems incredibly hypocritical to damn one advantage, no matter what changes are proposed, and OK another under the guise of having a level playing field. There is already the possibility that they'll raise the cap to i90, in which case that just further miss-matches gear anyway; Wolfram/Cashmere/etc. get the advantage of penta melds over anything else. At least with gear and Morale running parallel to the AP bonus you can provide everyone with a standard uniform to PvP in, almost completely removing any gear miss-matches. The only issue preventing that is how much of a grind obtaining PvP gear is, but again, that's something I've suggested be addressed, which is apparently appalling because we simply shouldn't have any difference from gear, while being OK with any difference from Rank. Despite the fact Rank and PvP gear run parallel to each other already.

Kantei, I never called you a win-trader. Please re-read my post, I said "..and its borderline win-trading" while referring to friendlies. That's because I think it's borderline win-trading. Not that you're blatantly win-trading.

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Originally Posted by Tandy

Wow tell us how you really feel! God forbid someone try to make a game FUN, it might be the hallmark of the destruction of the entire internet e-peen contests!

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"fun" was in quotation marks for a reason, friendlies aren't fun nor easy environment for new players. It's confusing, and annoying to say "oh your team lost X times, must not be fair, let's mix this up"

I'm on the side where i think gear should absolutely matter for PvP, all types of pvp. They basically made this huge tease of a awesome new pvp mode, and all this new pvp gear, and then disallowed it's use in Frontlines? That's the issue. That's what's upsetting.

Arguing for morale and against AP is also hypocritical. Even if you are just using it as an example lol.

I'm not siding with for morale or against morale.

I saw another player say AP accounts for little, minor advantages. I am just confirming that claim. With two months of testing it to back up that claim.

The other thing, my LS tripled in size after we started making ilvl caps. And many people joined the public PvP scene after that. 37 of my members got to rank 20 in two weeks after giving ilvl capped PvP a try. Another 120 members got between 1-20 in a month. In pug and private PvP.

My point is, in ilvl cap we had time to explain the flow of combat, what they were doing wrong, what they should be doing, and the current metas of PvP, and how to negate them.

Taking away gear melting gave them the time to work out the kinks and gain a bit of muscle memory for the class.

After people got a taste of our event, they invited friends, and our event really started taking off.

My overall point is, ilvl PvP got a bunch of new blood into PvP on my server. And I can easily see people inviting their friends to a PvP mode that has an ilvl cap, and instant ques. Much like my event that has instant ques and an ilvl cap.

All in all, my only point is this a good thing for PvP. And I'm willing to give up 6 months worth of work for a better rule set than featured in Wolves Den. I rather have fun beating people with team work and skill versus some status symbol I earned.

And yeah rawk, I am a bit sensitive and tired of that subject xD. Sorry. I should post the new friendlies rule set, combined three old modifiers to replace balance matches, but positive/helpful threads get ignored on these forums :P

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Arguing for morale and against AP is also hypocritical. Even if you are just using it as an example lol.

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I have never been arguing against AP, I said as much earlier. Stop mistaking my intent.

It is hypocritical to be OK with one advantage and damn another, solely because it provides an advantage. It is not hypocritical to point out the hypocrisy in such statements and provide reasoning for why it is hypocritical.

I mean seriously, if you lose the AP stats traits, and Morale is changed to effectively do the same thing... Then what difference is there? You rank up and get AP to spend, as well as Morale which is effectively just an old AP boost. People are fine with the AP boosts as it stands, so why would they then be against such a change to Morale? The developers can level players Morale with a buff, you can obtain Morale from Retainer Ventures if you're lucky, they can adjust Wolf Mark rewards to make Morale easier to obtain. They can do all these things which would make for a more level playing field while keeping Morale, but everyone seems to be against such suggestions, simply because it's Morale.

It's honestly baffling.

I completely agree with you when it comes to equalizing iLvs, that's actually why I like Morale (notice I've not been against the i80 cap). With Morale, everyone in PvP has a uniform that is exactly the same, that's the point of Morale in my opinion. They can balance it so it isn't a significant difference when you first enter, but once you've been in PvP for a while, you all get Morale gear and all wear it because it's PvP gear; everyone ends up in the same gear, with literally no difference.

I think the point is that if they're removing morale to remove the advantage, why not remove every possible advantage there is, including AP (Regardless of how much the advantage gives).

Going back to my original statement, I might as well queue naked. It's silly.

Yeah that is why I said you used it as an example. Either way the advantage provided is minimal.

They can keep morale in, I'm decently geared.

They can take it out, prefer this to make it more about teamwork versus math.

Doesn't really matter to me :o But the current rule set will lead to the expansion of PvP. And most will prefer it even if they don't understand it at first.

Taking out Morale and leaving in AP still leaves battles balanced. And it takes out gear melting, which leads boring matches.

Everything else is a non-issue for me. Taking morale is 95% of the issue, with AP being barely worth mentioning.

They can change AP to max out everything, and rake away ranks.

That would be fine with me. That's the funny thing about MMO players, they like to compete with each other by playing dress up over actually fighting each other.

The new rules make it less about dress up and more about fighting O.o. I'm not here to get involved in a conversation about AP and morale being an issue. I'm here to tell you the model they chose works O.o.

It takes gear melting out of it, and allows people to learn. Now SE has to figure out how to deal with the other major problem with attracting PvPers, our toxic community :x

You know, one thing that keeps getting discussed is level playing field, gear sync, etc. However, with FL, I seriously doubt you will see even numbers in battle. By that I mean, you'll see 18 vs 12 at a node, 33 vs 20, etc. I doubt you will see an even number of participants in a battle with each other, which kind of makes this skewed.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

Arguing for morale and against AP is also hypocritical. Even if you are just using it as an example lol.

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no its not, in fact, agruing for AP and being against morale is hypocritical. whoever is saying AP is effect pvp minimal, clearly never use it in 30s/40s. the advantage is HUGE. the sole fact you can boost your stat and push out your dps or increase vit or heals by 25 stats fully max isn not "minimal ". it is basically another another stat you can toss on gear or 25 extra allocation points.


either make FL equal or not at all. there is no "middle" ground here.

So now we are going the route of bringing up supposed 30/40 matches into front lines? When it has an i80 cap? Do you really think people will avoid 50's like they do in Wolves Den?

And if it minimal in 50's like you and I have said, and it has an armor cap 99% of all players can meet after a week of PvP.....we coming to the same conclusions yet?

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Originally Posted by Kantei

So now we are going the route of bringing up supposed 30/40 matches into front lines? When it has an i80 cap? Do you really think people will avoid 50's like they do in Wolves Den?

And if it minimal in 50's like you and I have said, and it has an armor cap 99% of all players can meet after a week of PvP.....we coming to the same conclusions yet?

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http://38.media.tumblr.com/3c54cfa19...ayxlo1_400.gif


30/40s posses no morale, FL will have no morale. in 30s/40s the more pvp skills/ traits boost you have = you win faster by a mile. by stacking your main trait with ap you get 25 extra stats, which plays heavily in a no morale pvp setting.by having maxed AP in traits, you clearly have a huge advantage.


also i did not say it "minimal" in 50s, it still fucking huge advantage in 50s .no we arent coming the same conclusion, in fact,we arent on the same page at all!

They really aren't. To me this all just seems like making mountains out of molehills, arguing for or against faulty logic, and a bit of masking what your really angry about.

Protest Front lines all you like :P I'll see you guys in there lol.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

They really aren't. To me this all just seems like making mountains out of molehills, arguing for or against faulty logic, and a bit of masking what your really angry about.

Protest Front lines all you like :P I'll see you guys in there lol.

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lol seems to me, you have no idea what you are even arguing about. i too am done with you.

also where did i say "im protesting fl"?all i am doing here is responding to other people posts. it seems to me, you the one applying faulty assumptions to things.

i will wait for you to find that post where i am "protesting FL because i secretly mad about morale gear!"

edit in fact my first post on this thread is me saying that petitions doesnt work, so why would i be protesting FL when i think it is a useless venture?

Zulu not every comment is aimed towards you :p I'm speaking in general most of the time, about the whole thread lol. Been a bunch of mixed subjects. Most of it BS.

The threads name deals with protesting front lines lol The conversation shifts to supposed variations and name calling anytime someone disagrees with absurd untested speculation lol.

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Originally Posted by Rawk

I think the point is that if they're removing morale to remove the advantage, why not remove every possible advantage there is, including AP (Regardless of how much the advantage gives).

Going back to my original statement, I might as well queue naked. It's silly.

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Yes gear stats capped to i80 and going into PvP naked is totally the same, dat logic and fair point.

And now the defenders of having morale are going into how having almost 300 morale more(while still having abilities upgraded and trait stats) vs pve gear is even remotely close to solely having trait stats maxed(+25 at most) and abilities upgraded, please , either you are truly oblivious or you're just trying to use false arguments to push a point, either way it's embarrassing.
Because YES, there is such a thing as a middle ground...

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Originally Posted by Pibz

And now the defenders of having morale are going into how having almost 300 morale more(while still having abilities upgraded and trait stats) vs pve gear is even remotely close to solely having trait stats maxed(+25 at most) and abilities upgraded, please , either you are truly oblivious or you're just trying to use false arguments to push a point, either way it's embarrassing.
Because YES, there is such a thing as a middle ground...

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Actually, if you ever read anything I said, I'm suggesting giving a Morale boost to people with none, meaning if i90/100 capped to i80 have 300 Morale, i70 has 250 Morale, and PvE has 200 Morale by default. As well as adjustments to Morale in general (at the extreme, making it exactly the same as the AP stats boost, while removing the AP stats boost; effectively no different from the current "No Morale, Keep AP"), both in its effect and speed the gear is acquired.

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Originally Posted by Kantei

I'm here to tell you the model they chose works O.o.

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Is that why people are upset with their gear being rendered moot? Is that why people are pointing out how Yoshida is going back on his word?

Yes, it "works", I'm not really arguing it doesn't. I'm arguing that there was a better way to make it work; a middle ground. They could have handled things much better, even if the way they've gone with does work. Gutting Morale was not the only, or in my opinion, the best, way to do things. Likely it was the fastest though, if they re-implement it at a later date when most people have the Marks for the gear/etc, and everybody is fine with that, I'm just going to roll my eyes at everyone disagreeing (to the point of throw insults) with my current point.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Actually, if you ever read anything I said, I'm suggesting giving a Morale boost to people with none, meaning if i90/100 capped to i80 have 300 Morale, i70 has 250 Morale, and PvE has 200 Morale by default. As well as adjustments to Morale in general (at the extreme, making it exactly the same as the AP stats boost, while removing the AP stats boost; effectively no different from the current "No Morale, Keep AP"), both in its effect and speed the gear is acquired.

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I wasn't referring to you, unless you also think it's fair to say that because they're removing morale frontlines going in naked is the same as going in with gear.

But I'll hand it to you, that is the one idea i agree with, they could just keep morale in frontlines and find a more finely tuned balance between pve gear and pvp gear ,so that PvP is still slightly better,but that coming into PvP with pve gear doesn't make you a complete gimp.

I never argued against that, only thing i have been arguing against is the idea that it won't be better/more balanced with no morale in frontlines vs the current system we have, and as i have said before this is likely to be a temporary measure to get a bigger chunk of the population geared up.