I hate the idea of Echo Buff. It should be part of some easy server not whole game.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Those players would have a point and a stance if this game required a large time investment. As it stands, you can clear Turns 1-5 in an hour and all EX Primals in the same time.

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How many are actually able to even clear all the Primals and turns? Your point make sense if they are nerfing everything so people can just blaze through everything without trying, but that's not what they are doing. The new content will not have Echo buffs. Even with the old content, you can't just beat things without learning about it.

Another thing, you seem to make contradictory points in your post. If you can clear everything so easily, then making it easier really will not affect you. Like you said, players that can't handle it will be stuck at the new content. Players who have the required skill will progress. What's the problem?

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Originally Posted by Amberion

I still think at least they should have taken longer to nerf it so hard. Sort of like nerfing it so it was at a range between casual and hardcore, something for those people in the middle. And after each patch, they move up a slot. That way you would also have more "current" content being played since you have 3 tiers of players.

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I actually agree that they might have been too heavily handed with their nerfs. They are most likely not going to change it at this point, but we can hope they are more light handed for the next patch.

For people who have already cleared the content: it doesn't affect them.

For people who haven't cleared the content: its a completely optional buff that can 'help' them clear it. If you don't want a difficulty decrease you don't have to use it. Form a non-echo coil party.

What exactly is the problem here?

I'm happy it is at least only activated after failure.

Still don't like it, but it could've been much worse.

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Originally Posted by DarkslayerG

How many are actually able to even clear all the Primals and turns? Your point make sense if they are nerfing everything so people can just blaze through everything without trying, but that's not what they are doing. The new content will not have Echo buffs. Even with the old content, you can't just beat things without learning about it.

Another thing, you seem to make contradictory points in your post. If you can clear everything so easily, then making it easier really will not affect you. Like you said, players that can't handle it will be stuck at the new content. Players who have the required skill will progress. What's the problem?

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Because it doesn't help anyone, in the end. These same players will STILL struggle on the newest content because they are not learning and getting better. They still have the same exact skill, only now a bunch of numbers pops up and makes them successful.

You know another way you can see this content that only 10% of the population sees? Get better at the game. Stop being bad. Stop hoping that other players will simply carry you through content and actually learn. And if you can't do that, quit, or find something else in the game to do. This game is not difficult at all in comparison to even WoW.

If that makes me an elitist, then I'm an elitist. I'm sorry I spent 10 whole minutes watching a video for a fight before I went in and actually pay attention during the fight.

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Originally Posted by Woggers

Players will purposely wipe to get that echo buff during primals I guarantee.

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Atleast Tanks can force the wipe before 3mins are up if it seems like others are just aiming to do that :3

Echo buff won't save you from landslide.

Echo buff won't save you from twisters.

Echo buff won't save you from primal 2 hour without killing sisters/heart/nails.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Because it doesn't help anyone, in the end. These same players will STILL struggle on the newest content because they are not learning and getting better. They still have the same exact skill, only now a bunch of numbers pops up and makes them successful.

You know another way you can see this content that only 10% of the population sees? Get better at the game. Stop being bad. Stop hoping that other players will simply carry you through content and actually learn. And if you can't do that, quit, or find something else in the game to do. This game is not difficult at all in comparison to even WoW.

If that makes me an elitist, then I'm an elitist. I'm sorry I spent 10 whole minutes watching a video for a fight before I went in and actually pay attention during the fight.

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Thank you for highlighting every reason for the echo buff to exists in the first place. Square Enix is a company and they exist to make money, I know this might be confusing to you, but the world does not evolve around you, your digital key clicking skills and eye hand coordination nor does it need you to continue to operate as a whole... it will however take your feedback into consideration.

I'm sorry if that is a bit harsh, but it is the reality, the fact of the matter is... If you have cleared the content, this does not effect you unless you are playing an alt for the LULZ, and EVEN in the event you are indeed playing an alt... and are indeed wanting to play at its original difficulty, the buff is completely optional. At no point in your rant did you give one valid reason NOT to have it, only reasons that we should.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

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I still fail to see how others being bad has a direct effect on the people that you clear the content with and yes you sound just like a elitist ass. good luck keeping this game going with only 10% of the player base playing btw. I mean how dare you assume that people are just bad or are not trying to get better at the game.

Why have small minority be the only ones that can do certain things oh wait its because according to you everyone that's struggling its do to lack of skill or effort.

I've played with both sides of the fence and if you wanna be super hardcore omgz I,m good at a video game that has no real bearing on real life by all means blow your load over your talent and or fast learning skills or elite group that you play with that can obliterate everything. So yet again I fail to see how any of this effects what you, or anyone in general that can do everything so much easier then others is.

Ten percent of the playerbase having cleared turn 5 is incredibly generous. I would say less than one percent is closer to reality.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

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I've got dem mad gaming skillz yo. I can press the 2 key faster and harder than anyone alive! You other people need to get gud.
Seriously, being an elitist in a "video game" is like getting first place in a race of three people. You may feel like you accomplished something, but to everyone else watching, it's just sad.

I don't think "quit or get better" is a very good business strategy for SE. I'm not for or against the Echo Buff, but it is smart of them to keep as many players as possible progressing through their content with each update. Not to mention that without the segment of the population that some people around here refer to as "being bad", there wouldn't be a game to play at all. As a developer, SE has to consider the needs of the entire community. It would be nice if players did not lose sight of the big picture and retreat into their own little corners whenever these updates/balance issues come up.

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It would be nice if players did not lose sight of the big picture and retreat into their own little corners whenever these updates/balance issues come up.

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If these issues continue piling up, eventually that player and like minded people will leave. And well, if they don't express their concerns, S-E would have no clue why they suddenly lose customers.

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Not to mention that without the segment of the population that some people around here refer to as "being bad"

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Sure it would, there are many games that don't cater as hard to "bads" as S-E. SE has taken it to an extreme IMO.
Well... maybe the game wouldn't be here. It's to Theme Park/Dress Up Barbie for it to drive in that crowd that would have played.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

hopefully you can toggle it off like regen/protect.

I haven't done T5 yet so I really would like a full experience.

Perhaps echo in DF only? IDRK how to have a compromise with this one :/

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If you haven't already done it you never will, the original experience means i90 gear at maximum and coming in with higher gear is similar to having the Echo buff

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Originally Posted by Velox

I've got dem mad gaming skillz yo. I can press the 2 key faster and harder than anyone alive! You other people need to get gud.
Seriously, being an elitist in a "video game" is like getting first place in a race of three people. You may feel like you accomplished something, but to everyone else watching, it's just sad.

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This may come as a shock to you, but some people like to actually challenge themselves to be better than others. It's called being competitive. Not everyone can be as accepting of mediocrity as you are.

"Who cares anyway right?"... is usually always spoken by the guy at the bottom.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

This may come as a shock to you, but some people like to actually challenge themselves to be better than others. It's called being competitive. Not everyone can be as accepting of mediocrity as you are.

"Who cares anyway right?"... is usually always spoken by the guy at the bottom.

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If you wanted to be competitive, you would have downed T5 about 4-5 months ago, and the extreme primals the first week of 2.1

The time for competition on 2.0/2.1 content has long since past, just let it go.

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Originally Posted by Onyxleo

So because I joined a month ago, I'm automatically screwed out of enjoying content the way it was originally intended to be played? I don't care about gear, or status, or any of that crap, yet just because I wasn't here day 1, I'm not allowed to enjoy a challenging experience? I know it might be hard for you to see past your own experiences, but not everyone has been playing since 1.0's beta. Not every newbie is inept at playing the game. So just because I'm 'late' to the party, my enjoyment of the game is invalid? And I'M the selfish one for wanting content to stay as it is? Unbelievable.

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There are ways to make the game more challenging for yourself. Go in with the bare minimum ilevel required for entry, turn off all echo buffs you may receive, hell do it naked if you want.

If you want a challenging experience, then be creative and give yourself a challenge.

As the person below you said: there are plenty of people who think the same way as you. Find them, group with them, have your cake and let everyone else have theirs too.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

If you wanted to be competitive, you would have downed T5 about 4-5 months ago, and the extreme primals the first week of 2.1

The time for competition on 2.0/2.1 content has long since past, just let it go.

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So because I joined a month ago, I'm automatically screwed out of enjoying content the way it was originally intended to be played? I don't care about gear, or status, or any of that crap, yet just because I wasn't here day 1, I'm not allowed to enjoy a challenging experience? I know it might be hard for you to see past your own experiences, but not everyone has been playing since 1.0's beta. Not every newbie is inept at playing the game. So just because I'm 'late' to the party, my enjoyment of the game is invalid? And I'M the selfish one for wanting content to stay as it is? Unbelievable.



All of this "Give yourself" nonsense, as if having 7 other party members abusing the echo with 30% buffs isn't going to make a difference to my experience? And are you seriously implying that if I strolled into an extreme fight as a naked Dragoon, I wouldn't instantly get removed for trolling? That's an absolutely ridiculous 'solution' that doesn't even address my issue with this system. Come on, be real here.

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Originally Posted by Onyxleo

So because I joined a month ago, I'm automatically screwed out of enjoying content the way it was originally intended to be played? I don't care about gear, or status, or any of that crap, yet just because I wasn't here day 1, I'm not allowed to enjoy a challenging experience? I know it might be hard for you to see past your own experiences, but not everyone has been playing since 1.0's beta. Not every newbie is inept at playing the game. So just because I'm 'late' to the party, my enjoyment of the game is invalid? And I'M the selfish one for wanting content to stay as it is? Unbelievable.

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You can turn the buff off. There you go. There's your challenge. The Echo isn't mandatory, and if you cant put forth the effort to find your own party where everyone shares your ideals, a static even, then I honestly can't say you're trying your best.There are people out there like you, you can find them and you can challenge whatever the hell you want at your own difficulty. Whatever that means to you. You can even go in with full DL for the full experience.

Also if you really did join a month ago, the content you've done isn't the same level of difficulty or challenge as it once was.

Quite a bit has been nerfed to hell and back. I don't know how long ago the Moogle Mog fight was but has since been nerfed since 2.1
Someone just joining during 2.2 wouldn't fucking know the difference.

Who cares? You can disable it, its obsolete content anyway the small(really small) % that will be running it for fun will just disable it if they want.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Those players would have a point and a stance if this game required a large time investment. As it stands, you can clear Turns 1-5 in an hour and all EX Primals in the same time. What remains is players that simply lack the skill, and worse, lack the desire to improve, and want the game brought down to their level rather than improve themselves.

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As someone who doesn't want things handed to him and has yet to clear *any* turns of Coil, I'm going to point out you are missing a group of people. The ones who, because of "Experienced Only" don't get a chance to try these things. I've never run turn 2-5 because I've never beat turn 1, but I won't jump into random Turn 1 groups expecting a clear because I haven't had the chance to clear it myself. I have been on 2 teams that were okay with new players since I started bothering with it.

It's certainly not a lack of desire to improve, and I consider myself at least good enough to not get everyone killed repeatedly, but I won't burden teams unwilling to work with people who aren't entirely sure of everything just so I can get ahead. It's not fair to them.

I'm not a big fan of how the Coil buff is set up, personally. I would think setting it similar to the EX-Primals would make more sense. That way the people who want it as similar to pre-2.2 Coil can keep that, and the people who would prefer something to help as fails happen would have that, without there being the two wide extremes.

People speaks of turn it on/off. But when you do it, it is just for yourself or the whole party?

Cause, if im with the buff turned off, but the other 7 players are running it on, content still gets dumbeddown. And is sad, cause i don`t like to race content, im fine and happy being in T4 for like 3 weeks already, i just started coil like 1 and half month ago. Now, it looks like i have to race against the updates so i dont get catched by the echo, cause even if i choose not to use it, everyone else, with the mentality of "path of less resistance" will use it. If anything, we will soon be reading PF like "no echo-kick."

Well, i guess this forces players to group with a-like people even more, so, instead of helping the DF, it just hurts it, because i belive a good chunk of people don`t want to try HM/EX or the first 5 turns of coil with 50%, or 30% or 25% more HP/DMG/Healing buffed partners, which is, not even a buff... Is plain broken. Well, all FF have always had one broken mechanic/character, i guess this is no exception.

I also am not sure about this mechanic at all. I hope what we see isn't total easy mode.

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Originally Posted by Khronikos

I also am not sure about this mechanic at all. I hope what we see isn't total easy mode.

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considering that ppl will be running content in full ilvl90 and prolly ilvl100/105 armor its already easy mode...the echo is there ensure that ppl will clear the content even faster so they can get to the next tier...im pretty sure no1 is gonna run coil for gear when u can just rolfstomp stuff like WP and AK in less time, only thing ppl will do is t5 for the weap

It's the path of lesser evil. How many dramas over a simple Titan HM run? How many pay-gil-to-carries are there for extremes?

Newest content will never be echo, so there's no point arguing that. Older-hard content like coil1-5 have a timer on them. 2 weeks for 10%. and then 2 weeks again.

It let's people catch up and equalize the playing field. It also minimizes all forms of elitism, parsing, and pay to wins.

The only one frankly who should be mad about it is the developers since it makes them essentially put out content faster. And that's a win in my books.

if i may ask, arent those so call elitist/hardcore do premade group?why cant you guys agree when recruiting? or you guys just love force your rule when queue with random player?
and you guys should know that casual player never bother with your achivement/gear

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Originally Posted by Erepio

considering that ppl will be running content in full ilvl90 and prolly ilvl100/105 armor its already easy mode...the echo is there ensure that ppl will clear the content even faster so they can get to the next tier...im pretty sure no1 is gonna run coil for gear when u can just rolfstomp stuff like WP and AK in less time, only thing ppl will do is t5 for the weap

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this also true to those so call want more challenge, get op gear and do low level content, wow such challenge. these hardcore must be proud

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Originally Posted by Kirosuu

this also true to those so call want more challenge, get op gear and do low level content, wow such challenge. these hardcore must be proud

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its not just for 2.2.....even now i dont see ppl doing ultima hm in ilvl61 or titan hm in ilvl58 or chance their gear to ilvl70+relic to do t1 or do t2 noramlly instead of enrage

and yet ppl QQ about the echo buff which u can freaking TURN OFF if u dont want it......and before going "i want to turn it but what about the other 7" how about U start a freaking PF grp thats what is there for

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

More damage = less room for player error because the fight will end before you were given the "usual" amount of time to mess up.

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it only apply to a few fight though, fight like Titan, garuda, and ifrit if you deal to much dmg their rotation will skip and for titan it can be scarry. And buff or not ppl still have to dodge & deal with the fight mechanic

I'm not that bothered about the general echo buff thing, but I will say - and I say this as someone who hasn't bothered touching Coil because I don't like endgame that much - that endgame specialists should still have something to show for themselves. In this case, I think it would be best to give achievements for "Beating ______ without use of the echo."

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Originally Posted by Loony_BoB

I think it would be best to give achievements for "Beating ______ without use of the echo."

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My thoughts exactly. If Yoshi wants to follow WoW model so much as he stated, then there should be separate achievements for defeating a raid with and without echo, so both groups of players can feel like they accomplished something.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

Jargon

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Yeah that logic would apply if this was a competitive sport but honestly who are you competing with the world? or your server or other servers are they aware that its a competition because its news to me. If you like to challenge yourself great just keep that to yourself because the key word is personal. I do hope you realize that what you do in this game as harsh as this may sound the real world could gives a crap about it, its your own little private reward that you and whoever you play with truly care about and only you. Its like giving yourself a trophy and wanting others to acknowledge it as being important.

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Originally Posted by KupoNuts

My thoughts exactly. If Yoshi wants to follow WoW model so much as he stated, then there should be separate achievements for defeating a raid with and without echo, so both groups of players can feel like they accomplished something.

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Love your quote so topical as well.

Claims to be hardcore. Doesn't do the content with minimal gear requirements. Yeah you ain't fooling me.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Claims to be hardcore. Doesn't do the content with minimal gear requirements. Yeah you ain't fooling me.

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The definitions in dumb forum politics generally come down to "casual = bad player/idiot" and "hardcore/elitist = scumbag no-lifer".

Kind of like how twisted words like "liberal" and "conservative" have become in IRL politics.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

What is ironic is a lot of people complaining about nerfs are the same people who use turn 2 enrage to bypass all of ADSs mechanics and raged on the forums when it got patched for a couple days.

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Cheesing content is truly hardcore.

I play as a gimped whm and made a thread, sure i may have a seemingly harder time but imo it makes the game more challenging in a way and it allows me to cheese content.
So imo hardcore ppl are ppl who don't care about nerfs and just play the game the way they want even if it is looked down on, they are hardcore so they'll make it work out and possibly find new ways for others to be enlightened.
Enrage t2 was found because a person thought of it and shared it.
Now it's a widely known useful tactic.