Whm receives multiple nerfs , Sch gets buffed

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Originally Posted by Noctrin

A lot of people comment on lustrate; in my parses, lustrate accounts for about 6-8% of my total healing, this does not change much. The fact that they finally fix pets will, even though i managed to adapt and was micromanaging my pet without issues pre-fixes as well, this will just make it so it requires less micro managing and more accurate timing.

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I think, for what it's worth, Lustrate is the best clutch heal ability in the game. Don't get me wrong, Benediction is an amazing spell but due to the timer it's situational at best (and even then you are maybe getting 75% health out of it). Having a "Spammable" Instant heal like Lustrate is amazing. (Even if the values are equivalent/lower to the crit on a Cure 2, you can get multiple Lustrates in within a cast of that same cure)

Whm isn't nerfed, just use Cure 3 on Titan ... tell people to stack under a soils on tumult, where everyone have adloquium from succor, and cure 3 straight away for the strong regen.

They just make you use all the tools of white mages with that patch in an easier fashion, which imho is pretty nice. Too bad for Holy tho :/

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

I have a feeling the majority of the WHM's crying here have likely not played SCH fully geared at endgame with remote experience. The fact you can keep Medica 2 up in boss fights nearly all the time while the tank keeps aggro is a huge plus

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yes, a plus if the regeneration is potent enough. and did you just keep MedicaII up while a tank is the only one keep getting hurts? hello??
CureII is nice but super niche and the buff doesn't change anything while the change on CureII proc just do CureIII worse
i also can't help but think some SCH don't know what WHM do

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WHM is still very powerful, it was never intended to deal damage so why cry about the role you shouldn't even be fulfilling, you are masters of healing not some godlike DPS

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I don't mind the Holy nerf, it was called for. but if you wanna attack at this, please tells your SCH friends to stop bragging about going 100% cleric and let Eos do the job after macro pet implemented, thanks

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

The half MP cost of Cure III SHOULD make it more usable, but still finding a situation to actually use it will be difficult. (Still a buff though, in the technical sense of the word.....)

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I disagree on it being difficult. It's a small aoe heal that is cast on someone. It's beyond perfect for healing the melee, while not getting tons of over heal threat you would get with medica if you needed to only get the people around the boss healed up.

I've seen a lot of WHM use medica as a way to heal up damage on the melee/tanks in a fight and pull massive threat from the boss because the ranged/mages are getting over healed. Cure III should be the go to heal when you need to only heal up melee/tanks after a boss local aoe, and medica is your raid wide aoe when everyone is hurt.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

1. You aren't using Lustrate 3 times a minute. Ever
2. Any decent SCH had their fairy on Steady and manually clicked a skill and steady immediately after as it stands. Now they just don't have to click steady after.
3. 3 lustrates in a row takes 3ish seconds, sometimes more because of animations.

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? There have been multiple times where I've used Lustrate 3 times in one minute. Fact is it's a 20% instant max HP heal that "costs" 350 mana with a limitation of the amount of Aetherflow stacks you have. After a Death Sentence, Lustrate is without a doubt the most optimal heal/"mana" ratio spell to use as it isn't effected by infirmary. And honestly as long as you aren't trying to heal through Infirmary with Adlos your mana should never be a limiting factor in T5. Also, any decent SCH is going to be using Selene, so as long as you manually tell her to cast the Fey Glow (skill speed or w/e) there's no reason to steady her.

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

I don't mind the Holy nerf, it was called for. but if you wanna attack at this, please tells your SCH friends to stop bragging about going 100% cleric and let Eos do the job after macro pet implemented, thanks

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But SCHs come from a base class of arcanist which is a DPS class so it's only natural that we'd have superior DPS skills to WHMs. Being able to have a pet auto heal while DPSing is part of our job description and is a huge part of being a really good scholar.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

But SCHs come from a base class of arcanist which is a DPS class so it's only natural that we'd have superior DPS skills to WHMs. Being able to have a pet auto heal while DPSing is part of our job description and is a huge part of being a really good scholar.

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WHMs come from a base class of conjurer which is a healing class so it's only natural that we should be better healers. Obviously.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

derpsicle

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I have played both and I can tell you flat out with 100% certainty that hitting physik embrace followed with a lustrate outpaces anything i can do on a whm outside benediction, especially on a warrior...also benediction has a massive 5 minute cooldown. I have a feeling you've never been on a Whm and actually seen how difficult it is to manage your MP. It must be nice getting 20% back a minute and never having to worry about mana as a resource. ... kids i swear...way to miss 95% of the posts contents and generalize....

bah this is not good :(

Guys I would like to put this bantering into end game perspective. I am 11/12 i90 SCH "AND" WHM. I have downed t5.

Here is my input on the changes:
WHM medica II change was to remove the high enemity from the ticks. I do not see it as a nerf, and if you have to get everyone up so quickly you are better chaining medica II > medica I.
WHM Cure III is a huge buff. You guys just do not use it thats why you are hostile towards it. now with cost reduction and radius increase you need to start using it over medica II in certain fights.
SCH Lusterate buff of 5% was due to Virus only being able to be cast once a min. Sacred soil will now have to be used more often in result also.

End game lesson learned based on me playing both SCH and WHM with i90 t5 kill experience:
You need WHM+SCH combo. SCH excels in some areas and WHM in others. Main things SCH brings is Burst heals and shields. Main things WHM brings is AOE heals, stoneskin, regen, and oh shit benediction.
Can you run 2x WHM sure. can you run 2x SCH? sure. but nothing beats WHM + SCH. The utility they have together in all situations is vast.

On an ending note: Any SCH that is "lazy" or refusing to micro manage their pet is cutting themselves short. Start looking into macros and keybinds, use the 4 pet spells on your command and you will be a superior healer. All these excuses of why bother?! on my parse record you can increase your healing potential by 20%. timing key abilities in phases is harder, but if you are not working to your potential then why bother? Come 2.1 with the obey changes and pet command macro additions, there will be no reason for you not to micro manage your pet if you are looking to squeeze out every potential you have.

Thank you for reading my POV on current healing conditions in FFXIV ARR endgame content.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

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if you wanna play it like that then i'd have to says, your oh-so-good-i'm-from-dps-class-so-i'll-do Cleric Stance actually come from conjurer for a reason

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

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Here is the thing, Muzzy
first, "chaining medica II > medica I" only do MORE enmity
second, CureIII is always nice, it does. radius buff is good, everybody agrees. but the reduction? do you actually expecting WHM throwing out CureII so they might have a 15% chance to use halved MP cost for the AoE?
if the time serve, CureIII will be used regardless of the triggerd. if not, it won't be used even if triggered because, hello, almost the same amount MP as CureII yet less potency?
while the old triggered can be useful sometime for a guaranteed critical heal, which heals more normal CureII

btw, I'm also a WHM/SCH but only downed T4 :p

your not understanding my point, enmity is extremely multiplied on over heals. The issue was Medica II topping everyone and the thick overheal pretty much got you insta agro. If you have to MEdica II > Medica I there is another issue to deal with and if your not over healing it wont be a problem with enmety. you will cast cure II at least once every 35sec in t5, you will cast CureIII when its suited no matter if you have the trigger or not.

The old Cure III crit bonus didn't matter. if you have to heal that much and a cureII wouldnt have saved you, you should have benedicted anyway. The main point of CureIII will be for the AOE aspect, and I believe that's what Yoshi is trying to say.

also dont forget the main reason you didnt use CureIII was the cast time, and that has been reduced. We will see in 24hrs. People will adapt, people do not like change. I still see the changes as a buff.

if you were having difficulty with medica 2 hate before it was your own fault for not letting the tank grab sufficient hate or having shroud to fall back on. The change was not an address to enmity, it is an attempt to make us use cure 3 more by making medica 2 a less appealing option for burst healing

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Originally Posted by AishaK

if you were having difficulty with medica 2 hate before it was your own fault for not letting the tank grab sufficient hate or having shroud to fall back on. The change was not an address to enmity, it is an attempt to make us use cure 3 more by making medica 2 a less appealing option for burst healing

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There are two development tactics for game changes. One is the top 1% endgame reason the other is the median game play change. The medica II change was addressed for the median population. We all have died to casting medica II prematurely or too early in a fight. and yes that is our fault! but its not gonna make our experiences better. This is a change to prevent that from happening. The Cure III "BUFF" is the 1% endgame change.

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

also dont forget the main reason you didnt use CureIII was the cast time, and that has been reduced. We will see in 24hrs. People will adapt, people do not like change. I still see the changes as a buff.

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got to agree with Muzzy, you're all crying over nothing, with the WAR buffs and shield oath buffs it's going to be easier to use your spells more often, and if you DO get aggro Blizz 2 and then run so tank can take aggro, instead of using the stun which Diminishes with other stuns, and also probs costs less mana. WHM and SCH together will never be beaten.

With something like Medica 2 for 20s, it'll be much easier to survive High Voltage in turn 1 and 2 without need for BRD, you can afford the mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

The issue was Medica II topping everyone and the thick overheal pretty much got you insta agro

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Or you'll top people off fairly quickly and the remainder will end up as overhealing anyways...just not as fast

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

also dont forget the main reason you didnt use CureIII was the cast time, and that has been reduced.

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That is not entirely correct....The spell would have been used regardless if the utility warranted the extra cast.

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

The utility they have together in all situations is vast

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the main reason ppl will live with it even it if is terrible

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

Any SCH that is "lazy" or refusing to micro manage their pet is cutting themselves short

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this really could not be quoted enough

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

also dont forget the main reason you didnt use CureIII was the cast time, and that has been reduced. We will see in 24hrs. People will adapt, people do not like change. I still see the changes as a buff.

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Wait, what? The main reason I didn't cast Cure III was it's high mp cost for the danger of not hitting enough people to warrant it and too few situations where people are actually huddled up to make it an efficient heal for its cost.
I still absolutely do not agree that the changes are a buff, unless the mechanics for CT are completely different than what we've seen in current end game content.
I do agree though that people will adapt. They have to :)

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

your not understanding my point, enmity is extremely multiplied on over heals. The issue was Medica II topping everyone and the thick overheal pretty much got you insta agro.

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That is everyones point. Regardless of whether or not the initial aggro generated by the casting of the new Medica 2 is less than the old the overheal will change that.

No one is going to leave a raid damaged and let medica 2 tick for 30 secs to get the healing out of it and avoid overhealing. The raid will be topped off either by necessity from you or the sch and the fairy healing.

Medica 2 generated extra threat from overhealing usually because the raid got topped off with either medica, succor or whispering dawn but it was a few ticks. Having a 30 sec heal will mean that it will tick longer on a fully topped off raid and not just be a waste but a threat generator. Just because the hot is longer and weaker doesn't mean you can afford to just let the raid sit.

In other games having hots rolling usually was a good thing because threat really wasn't an issue. This game punishes overhealing. Unless they remove the threat from hots its just going to make threat managment difficult.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

With something like Medica 2 for 20s, it'll be much easier to survive High Voltage in turn 1 and 2 without need for BRD, you can afford the mistakes.

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I'm sure a hot for 130 will save the tank when my cure 2 is stopped by paralyze. Do you play this game?

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

There are two development tactics for game changes. One is the top 1% endgame reason the other is the median game play change. The medica II change was addressed for the median population. We all have died to casting medica II prematurely or too early in a fight. and yes that is our fault! but its not gonna make our experiences better. This is a change to prevent that from happening. The Cure III "BUFF" is the 1% endgame change.

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eh then make it a real buff instead of this halfhearted give and take. 2 y change is good but the proc system still needs a rework no matter how you look at it to be more reliable. Especially if its going to continue to be based off cure 2. fix that and i will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

1. You aren't using Lustrate 3 times a minute. Ever
2. Any decent SCH had their fairy on Steady and manually clicked a skill and steady immediately after as it stands. Now they just don't have to click steady after.
3. 3 lustrates in a row takes 3ish seconds, sometimes more because of animations.
4. Again you aren't ever using Lustrate 3 times in one minute.

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So, you've not taken Scholar beyond Garuda, eh? That's the only way any of this bullshit you just shat out makes sense.

1. Using 3 Lustrates in a minute is common once you get into Twintania.
2. Any decent Scholar realizes that faeries should be used in relation to the fight. Accordingly, throwing a faerie into a single mode does not make you a "decent SCH."
3. Three lustrates take more than 3 seconds due to animation delay.
4. Again, no.

Stay on Summoner, please.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

This game punishes overhealing. Unless they remove the threat from hots its just going to make threat managment difficult.

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They don't even have to fully remove it to fix the problem, all they need to do is have overheal enmity the same as heal enmity. Or reduce SoS cooldown to 60s so we can manage our own enmity.

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Originally Posted by Eriane

I'm sure a hot for 130 will save the tank when my cure 2 is stopped by paralyze. Do you play this game?

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I think the main problem is that people are pretending they're solo healing all this content. His point was valid; if you have another WHM with you then you have two Medica II ticking over during that unintended High Voltage, you also have Benediction for unfortunate mistakes like this. If you have a SCH with you then they can heal the tank through those 20 seconds with Lustrate, while your Medica II ticks over; and like I said before, benediction should always be up for panic moments like this.

If you're taking High Voltage in the first place your party is doing something wrong.

11/12 i90 + 1/1i95 ;)

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

WHM Cure III is a huge buff. You guys just do not use it thats why you are hostile towards it. now with cost reduction and radius increase you need to start using it over medica II in certain fights.

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The change to Cure III itself just makes it a little less sketchy in use, the problem is that I can think of two specific situations in two end game encounters where it's truly useful (T4 enrage, T5 post divebombs when grouping & LBing snakes) and in those cases it's usually 2 casts and it's on the back burner again. Don't get me wrong, I think it's an excellent spell, it just doesn't serve a purpose for the majority of 2.0's content. Fingers crossed this changes in 2.1. Altering overcure is another nice little alteration but again, hardly game changing, we simply don't spam cure II enough to get any kind of reliable use out of it in the same manner as Freecure.

Commenting over Medica II is pretty pointless until we see it in the flesh, if it's still fast enough for conflag/fireballs then eh, no worries here, as already mentioned it'll be an improvement for dealing with chip damage like ADS2.

Going to have to strongly disagree with your Lustrate comment though, two points: Virus is an Arc ability, so Smn got buffed too right? (sike). Secondly, Virus getting nerfed was as much as sch nerf as thunder getting dropped off the cross class list was a blm nerf. I suspect SE underestimated how strong an ability it would be once players got organised and started using debuff chains. It affects the debuff options a raid can apply, it'll make somewhere between very little and absolutely no difference in solo and 4 strong play.

Oh and regarding the enmity comments, the only time I seriously have to really watch my hate like a hawk is when helping comparatively under geared tanks with my servers Titan LS. Going to tanks with comparable gear to my own, If I pull agro it's usually down to regen being up during a phase change or mob pop, not medica II.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

... thunder getting dropped off the cross class list was a blm nerf.

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Wait...that doesn't affect blm. It is a thm skill, so they automagically get it, correct me if I'm wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by Archamgel

Wait...that doesn't affect blm. It is a thm skill, so they automagically get it, correct me if I'm wrong. :)

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That's my precise point :)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Virus getting nerfed was as much a sch nerf as thunder getting dropped off the cross class list was a blm nerf.

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*
The virus nerf doesn't directly affect Sch, It's to reduce the potential amount of debuffing a raid can bring to the table. Kind of a shame but you only have to look back to Pre Luclin era Everquest to understand why SE have this stance.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

That's my precise point :)

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Ah, ok, I re-read and it makes sense now. I hastily read it getting ready for a WoT match.

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Originally Posted by Muzzy

We all have died to casting medica II prematurely or too early in a fight.

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Erhm what about no? Never died cause of MedicaII, and if I ever had threat problems at all it was with bad tanks. And I sure got eventually more threat problems when spamming Cure/CureII then ever with aoe. I don't really see where all this "MedicaII was a nightmare for aggro and overheal" problem is...but I can really see them coming now, with such a long lasting HoT. Hell, I keep myself a lot from using Regen, because long lasting HoTs are hard to control...can't imagine now with new Med. Sure I never was in Coil, but I doubt such a place suddenly trasnforms the same skill into another one.
And please could you not posts spam? 3 in a row is really severe spam.

I have pondered this myself, and if I run the scenario in my head I usually wait until I think I wont overheal to use a medica II. Guess now I will just cast it sooner and counter the AoE instead of try to fix the AoE afterwards. Guess I will use Medica I like I always have just a little more often and a medica II to counter further AoE damage for the duration.

if one point of hate = one point of heal then the threat generation is the exact same as it was before, just less for longer.

The virus nerf as well as the bard 10% damage reduction ability nerf seems to me to be in direct response to why they had to adjust warriors. Yoshi mentioned that he didn't expect the community to bypass that mechanic with debuffs and the pally cooldowns. So now we have a nerfed Virus, bards don't have a 10% DR anymore, and wars still got the changes.

I can sort of understand where the cure III changes came from we said we don't use it even with overcure prior to this, we said that it's range was to small. Face it cure III is stupid OP and to increase its range to much would be game breaking. We now have a 50% MP cost reduction proc, still wont use it unless I have to, but I will play with tis range and see how well I can hit melee and the tank with it with the small increase.

I can say that I have played healers in other games, and SWTOR comes to mind where they literally destroyed a healer, this really isn't to bad.

The problem with balancing Medica II and Cure III is that whm cannot use spells with Regen affect without turning adds into red light so making Medica II regen 30 secs is asinine imo. We don't want our regens to last forever! Short and potent is much easier to manage. MP efficiency is rarely an issue for good healers late game so the Cure III buff/nerf (still couldn't decide) doesn't do enough to address the issue. Holy nerf doesn't surprise me being such a potent AOE spell that also stuns. It's already going to be quite broken if whm swiftcast+holy to chain stun in PVP. But again, a lot of MMO get ruined because the jobs got balanced so much for PVP they took away the PVE experience.

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Originally Posted by Kako0404

Cure III buff/nerf (still couldn't decide) doesn't do enough to address the issue.

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How would you ever see the Cure III changes as a nerf? Increased range and decreased cast time..

the proc change could be considered a nerf depending on what you wanted from the spell.

I used to use the crit proc on non cleaving mobs when i and a tank were hurt to top us both off in one gcd. The crit could probably be used similarly to fully heal fireball damage on twintania, but with its range it would definitely be hit and miss.

I sometimes think SE just wants us to only cure and nothing else

job is so boring at times and they go and ninja nerf holy just because

GL every caster in PvP brds will faceroll us all day

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Originally Posted by AishaK

the proc change could be considered a nerf depending on what you wanted from the spell.

I used to use the crit proc on non cleaving mobs when i and a tank were hurt to top us both off in one gcd

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Nobody ever counted on a proc going off though, they were just nice to use when they were up; and I think most people would take the lower MP cost over the Crit. On a flipside to this, can you imagine the rage it would cause if they changed the Freecure proc from Cure to Cure II from no cost to certain Crit? WHM don't have an issue with keeping people up; their cures are potent enough, the only two problems a WHM will ever have are MP and threat generation.

This change at least gives WHM another way to conserve their MP.

Another note; if a tank had Awareness up during your Overcure proc prior to 2.1 it would have been useless.

it wont line up enough to make a significant difference, cure 3 will still be mostly unused save for certain situations (once again twin fireballs come to mind). It will be a random nice proc but i suspect most whm's will fall back on medica with medica 2 constantly ticking.

have you tried casting more than one cure 3? it chunks your mp ridiculously hard. Medica 2 feels more efficient because it continues to deliver its payload and gives you time to recover from its cost with passive regen. Cure 3 is just a frontload heal which then undoubtedly has to be followed with more healing. It ends up feeling much more expensive

I've probably tested cure 3 more than most whm's haha, i was constantly trying to find ways to make it work for me.

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Originally Posted by AishaK

it wont line up enough to make a significant difference, cure 3 will still be mostly unused save for certain situations (once again twin fireballs come to mind). It will be a random nice proc but i suspect most whm's will fall back on medica with medica 2 constantly ticking.

have you tried casting more than one cure 3? it chunks your mp ridiculously hard. Medica 2 feels more efficient because it continues to deliver its payload and gives you time to recover from its cost with passive regen. Cure 3 is just a frontload heal which then undoubtedly has to be followed with more healing. It ends up feeling much more expensive

I've probably tested cure 3 more than most whm's haha, i was constantly trying to find ways to make it work for me.

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So in which scenario would you see this being used the most? MP efficiency is secondary when it is an emergency or if the healing isn't that intensive.