SQUARE-ENIX, remember not to marginalise crafters

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

I think he's being dead serious and I agree with him.

MMOs are about a lot of things, but usually the focus is the battles, and by letting non-combat classes participate they had to dumb it down to allow them to progress. Which isn't a very good idea.

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Crafters make and repair your gear. Get over it and have a nice day. :)

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

First of all, make sense!

Second of all, I wasn't saying crafters are leechers, I was merely suggesting a way to make a compelling Main Scenario questline without excluding crafters.

As long as crafters are not combatants, main scenario quests will never have combat as a focal point. I feel like this limits the story-telling devices. Well, at the very least, it places one limitation on the story-telling.

Therefore, why not focus exclusively on making the scenario quests for DoW and DoM, and then if a DoH or DoL needs to do a story quest, they can simply petition their DoW or DoM friends to help them (i.e. they can leech).

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I see that you have failed in a simple question and answer session. You are not helping on the situation to support your cause with such a feeble answer.

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Originally Posted by AdaraaKatsumi

I see that you have failed in a simple question and answer session. You are not helping on the situation to support your cause with such a feeble answer.

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Ok.
first you have to accept the premise.

In order to make the main storyline, and major plot driven content playable by all, they have to make them able to be completed by crafters, as well, they have to show your charachter in an appropriate role in cutscenes.

If this premise is true,

Because crafters/gatherers are jobs, they cannot make content in the missions/storyline type things, that revolve around battle.

Now, his solution is.
Let the crafters leech off thier friends for this content, or pay mercenaries, whatever you want to think of it, basically he saying dont make missions based around the fact that someone may have no abilities to battle, just make let them get through it by using a friend/mercenary

I dont know if thats the best solution, but it is a solution.
They could also create different content for crafters/gatherers.

or some people say just abolish them as jobs, and then people wont expect to do main storyline with crafters.

any other suggestions, go for it

Main Scenario quests with a crafter doesn't make sense?
You don't feel to achieve anything while saving Eorzea with your smithy hammer?

change class to a battle-oriented one.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Main Scenario quests with a crafter doesn't make sense?
You don't feel to achieve anything while saving Eorzea with your smithy hammer?

change class to a battle-oriented one.

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It's not all about feeling small.

It's about how the stories are designed to cushion players at every turn instead of being challenging.

I was thinking of having the same storyline, except different missions....they may not necessarily have to be changed a great deal. Just that the storyline will cater for all classes depending on their current discipline. The storyline doesn't need to be changed, but how the player interacts with the game depending on their class will change what they can do.

SPOILERS:

For example: the fighting scene on board the ship in the Limsa Lominsa storyline. Obviously, the DoW and DoM classes will participate in the battle between the two people. That's fine, and if you go into the instance as one of those classes, you get to participate in combat.

But say that you went in as a crafter...take weaver for example. Since the mission occurs during a fight between ships (I think, it's been quite some time since I did that storyline mission), the weaver, instead of being offered the chance to fight, will probably have to help repair some sails which broke during the fight or even make them, while still getting the storyline cutscenes WHICH will make reference to the weaver's help. Another example is Carpenter; the ship may have some broken timbers which are letting in water. You could be asked to help repair or make the wood while still getting the storyline.

For gathering classes, it'll be also to their respective jobs as well. As per the above storyline, the ship may have lost all it's food sources due to the ship flinging side and so, or having a cannon blow a hole through it's stocks. The fisher may be asked to fish up some food, and give it to an NPC. Though this may be far-fetched, botany and mining can be used in the above scenario as well, such as botany to help remove any seaweed or plant growth which may be causing timbers to break, and mining to help chip away at the barnacle growing alongside the ship. Either, they can still be privy to the storyline missions, and don't need to participate in the battle scene.

END SPOILERS.

So, with that, crafters and gatherers can remain as main classes, but in storyline missions, have different things to do depending on what class they enter the instance, while still being able to experience all cutscenes and the lore that comes from it. Of course, that will mean they have to remove any equipping of gear in the instance, but they can implement it, I think. This way, those who want challenging battles can do so, those who want a challenging craft or gathering mission can do so.

It may not be the best idea that has come up, but this solution is one I see that can perhaps appeal to some people....

I am fine with crafters not being able to do main missions. Timmy the Blacksmith is not going to go save the world unless he puts the hammer down, grabs a sword, and kicks some butt. Crafting as a job is kind of an interesting idea, I guess, but I really don't see the need for a Blacksmith with me in a dungeon, or a Miner standing around while we kill an NM. If it were me, I would make it so crafters can create some pretty good battle armor, and the best crafter armor, and NMs drop some pretty good crafting armor and the best battle armor. I look at the issue in a similar light to PvP vs. PvE gear in WoW (or anywhere else).

If crafters are going to come into dungeons, then I would like my lancer to be able to help make an item by doing some contrived activity that doesn't actually make sense, but meh. Also, lets be honest, the development team should allocate their time on content based on the number of players who are going to use it. That means more time on low level content to start, more time on battle-oriented content, and more time on quests and the like.

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Originally Posted by Raijin

battle content is dumbed down to cater for crafters who dont actually play it? Or you mean the main scenario questline, which you can choose to fight or parley if you cant. Dont blame crafting for poor battle content. Blame developers for making it easymode.

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And that's the problem. It's a battlefield, you're supposed to fight, not play a stupid puzzel game. But since they had to allow crafters in there they had to give them a way to suceed, thus dumbing down the fights.

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Crafters make and repair your gear. Get over it and have a nice day

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And what does that have to do with battlefields?

Pure crafters are a dead concept, moving on.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

It's not all about feeling small.

It's about how the stories are designed to cushion players at every turn instead of being challenging.

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beingdesignedtoWHAT!?

To pure crafters complaining.

If you wanna play "Crafting: The game" please go elsewhere, this is Final Fantasy and the main purpose of this game is to kill stuff, crafting should always be second priority and a side thing.

inb4 "Final Fantasy is a world and every aspects of it should be equal" no, shut up. We're supposed to go kill big stuff. (This is why people bought the game. your vision of the game cannot be sustained because it sucks)

Crafting shouldn't be the only means of obtaining good gear, :cool:deal with it.:cool:

Guys, you don't have to take away class status from crafters and harvesters. All SE needs to do is make main scenario quests for battle types and then another set for non battle types. That way the battle main scenario is actually challenging and the crafters are actually involved in stuff having to do with actual crafting/gathering as opposed to wrist flicking an enemy encounter and/or watching NPCs kill something.

Either way, this game is soloable and we still have to contend with main scenario quests that a soloist can do. But that, as it were, is a completely different discussion topic. The only reason I even mention this is because it seems like some posters are looking for a scapegoat to blame the ease of storyline missions on and crafters are the easy target. It isn't because of crafters, it is because of SE's (over?) dedication to making sure the game is solo friendly.

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Originally Posted by Vicious

To pure crafters complaining.

If you wanna play "Crafting: The game" please go elsewhere, this is Final Fantasy and the main purpose of this game is to kill stuff, crafting should always be second priority and a side thing.

inb4 "Final Fantasy is a world and every aspects of it should be equal" no, shut up. We're supposed to go kill big stuff. (This is why people bought the game. your vision of the game cannot be sustained because it sucks)

Crafting shouldn't be the only means of obtaining good gear, :cool:deal with it.:cool:

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I think people who come to a game built a certain way and then tell those who are playing the game the way it was built to be played to "go elsewhere" should take their own advice. But that's just my opinion. :)

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Originally Posted by Vicious

To pure crafters complaining.

If you wanna play "Crafting: The game" please go elsewhere, this is Final Fantasy and the main purpose of this game is to kill stuff, crafting should always be second priority and a side thing.

inb4 "Final Fantasy is a world and every aspects of it should be equal" no, shut up. We're supposed to go kill big stuff. (This is why people bought the game. your vision of the game cannot be sustained because it sucks)

Crafting shouldn't be the only means of obtaining good gear, :cool:deal with it.:cool:

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Nail, meet head. Agreed 100%

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I think people who come to a game built a certain way and then tell those who are playing the game the way it was built to be played to "go elsewhere" should take their own advice. But that's just my opinion. :)

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tell me about it

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Originally Posted by Vicious

To pure crafters complaining.

If you wanna play "Crafting: The game" please go elsewhere, this is Final Fantasy and the main purpose of this game is to kill stuff, crafting should always be second priority and a side thing.

inb4 "Final Fantasy is a world and every aspects of it should be equal" no, shut up. We're supposed to go kill big stuff. (This is why people bought the game. your vision of the game cannot be sustained because it sucks)

Crafting shouldn't be the only means of obtaining good gear, :cool:deal with it.:cool:

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I disagree with your opinion.

If "Final Fantasy 14" didn't put crafters in the same realm as fighters noone would be complaining. SE is the one who elevated crafters putting them the same league and storyline as dd's. Crafter's deserve better if they are going to do this. Either elevate crafters by offering equal treatment to all or take it away as a class. Offering Main Storyline Missions to DoL, DoH, and DoW/DoM. That's what would balance things better. Everyone would have a Storyline catered to their individual class they choose to play on.

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Originally Posted by Gracious

If "Final Fantasy 14" didn't put crafters in the same realm as fighters noone would be complaining. SE is the one who elevated crafters putting them the same league and storyline as dd's. Crafter's deserve better if they are going to do this. Either elevate crafters by offering equal treatment to all or take it away as a class. Offering Main Storyline Missions to DoL, DoH, and DoW/DoM. That's what would balance things better. Everyone would have a Storyline catered to their individual class they choose to play on.

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Nobody just plays on one class though! There are hardly any pure crafters around.

As such, SE should just make the storyline progression tied to DoW and DoM classes, and if pure crafters want to participate, they should simply be required to hire someone to fight the fights for them.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Nobody just plays on one class though! There are hardly any pure crafters around.

As such, SE should just make the storyline progression tied to DoW and DoM classes, and if pure crafters want to participate, they should simply be required to hire someone to fight the fights for them.

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Some players do just play one class. None said you have to play more then 1 class in order to play this game. I know alot of dd's that don't want to craft. Why should crafters be the one's that are hindered when the game said "Look we value you as much as dd's, you have your own class now". Crafter's / Gather's should not have to pay ppl to complete the same missions dd's can complete. Fair play would be equal to everyone no matter the class.

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Originally Posted by Gracious

Some players do just play one class. None said you have to play more then 1 class in order to play this game. I know alot of dd's that don't want to craft. Why should crafters be the one's that are hindered when the game said "Look we value you as much as dd's, you have your own class now". Crafter's / Gather's should not have to pay ppl to complete the same missions dd's can complete. Fair play would be equal to everyone no matter the class.

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By that token, DDs shouldnt have to pay crafters to make the same crafts that crafters can make.

They each have their realm of expertise.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

By that token, DDs shouldnt have to pay crafters to make the same crafts that crafters can make.

They each have their realm of expertise.

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Yes, but you don't have to pay a crafter in order to complete a mission and therein lies the difference.

"Last edited by Qeepel; Yesterday at 02:24 PM. Reason: Disruptive text." lol

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Originally Posted by Gracious

Yes, but you don't have to pay a crafter in order to complete a mission and therein lies the difference.

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Well an economy works by an exchange of goods and services. Goods for services.

I dont want crafters to be marginalised, I was one of the first to 50 on my server, but I think that catering to crafters in the story quests hampers SE's ability to deliver good story content.

SE should keep crafters and gatherers important aspects of the economy (crafted gear being the best items and almost no droppable gear), but they shouldn't keep having to navigate the hurdle that is the crafting classes when it comes to designing Main Scenario Quests. It just slows everything down.

how about crafters craft some gear, put it on, and go stab some rabbits.

we don't need to add silly hiring options or non-combat story missions. waste of time

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Well an economy works by an exchange of goods and services. Goods for services.

I dont want crafters to be marginalised, I was one of the first to 50 on my server, but I think that catering to crafters in the story quests hampers SE's ability to deliver good story content.

SE should keep crafters and gatherers important aspects of the economy (crafted gear being the best items and almost no droppable gear), but they shouldn't keep having to navigate the hurdle that is the crafting classes when it comes to designing Main Scenario Quests. It just slows everything down.

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I absolutely agree with this! I want my DoW/DoM to be challenged in the area of their class and advance that way through missions; same could be said with my DoL and DoH jobs. The thing is SE tried to make them equal, they are not equal. They have too many difference's to be equal. I think either SE needs to take DoH and DoL out of class status or what I would prefer is a similar but seperate mission scenerio for them.

I also agree that the class types are not equal in the sense of identical. Of course it's this way. And of course certain quest / storyline content is locked based on class. Pugilists don't get to see the Lancer quests and vice versa.

What I do want to see is a rich and engaging game experience for all the classes, be it fighter, sorcerer, crafter, gatherer (to use the JP terms).

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

By that token, DDs shouldnt have to pay crafters to make the same crafts that crafters can make.

They each have their realm of expertise.

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we will continue along this same path. crafters shouldn't have to pay dow/dom for the materials to craft. i need 10 stacks of toadskins for crafting. btw, i am not paying you for them.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

we will continue along this same path. crafters shouldn't have to pay dow/dom for the materials to craft. i need 10 stacks of toadskins for crafting. btw, i am not paying you for them.

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Exactly, the economy wouldnt work if no one played their roles properly.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Exactly, the economy wouldnt work if no one played their roles properly.

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so what you are saying it is you, as a dow, that started this mess now want free gear after you charged for the materials. not going to happen.

This whole thread seems very familiar... Oh yeah! Pure combat pilots in Eve telling Miners to go away because they're "playing the game wrong."

In my opinion, if you want to play the game your way and feel obliged to tell every one else that they're doing it wrong, you're playing the wrong type of game. The single player games can be found in your local store. Might want to look in to not being so childish all the time either. Not sure where you'd buy that.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

so what you are saying it is you, as a dow, that started this mess now want free gear after you charged for the materials. not going to happen.

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WTF. Why are you being so obtuse? I am saying a functioning economy works on the exchange of goods an services. DoW, DoL, and DoM farm materials and SELL THEM. DoH craft and SELL THEIR CRAFTS.

In the event of a quest which they cannot do, DoH and DoL either switch to a DoW/DoM or hire one to fight for them if they can't do a quest.

It's called exchange of services.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

WTF. Why are you being so obtuse? I am saying a functioning economy works on the exchange of goods an services. DoW, DoL, and DoM farm materials and SELL THEM. DoH craft and SELL THEIR CRAFTS.

In the event of a quest which they cannot do, DoH and DoL either switch to a DoW/DoM or hire one to fight for them if they can't do a quest.

It's called exchange of services.

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why are you overlooking the fact that the difference is they are not paying the crafters to do their story quests? i already said that the crafters should have their own main story quest. why are you ignoring the issue?

the issue IS the quests are gimped because of dol/doh being in them as well as just having some horrible dom/dow classes that can't do anything half competent.

the easiest solution IS give the doh/dol their own main story quest so they can advance in the game as much as any other class in game. then both get what they want and the only people you can blame on the gimped fights are the people playing battle classes that are incompetent.

i am saying this as someone with both a dow and a dom at 50 so i feel the other battle classes pain, but feel leaving the other disciples out of the main story would be wrong. if you notice i do not have a dol or doh at 50 so i am not taking up for myself, but for others.

if they want dol/doh to be full classes i have no issue with that, but they should have a storyline for them in which battle is not part of their story. the main story is nothing more than a class quest you can do based off a single level so why not split it into disciples and let each one have their own story advancement? this would not affect us battle classes at all and not have the other disciples left to be inferior.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

main story content for a crafting or gathering class would not really make much sense

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Doesn't make much sense now that they're parleing through a boss fight either. I personally don't care what makes sense - I don't think they should marginalize crafters because its different and its cool (although I hardly touch crafting) but I think they need to keep battle content separate and definitely storyline separate...storyline quests suck monkey balls and I want better ones and plenty of people want better ones. Crafters wanna do storyline? get a party to help you or change classes.

I really hope that SE brings back the idea of the gathering classes (and possibly crafting classes) having incapacitation moves against against certain enemy types, which would increase the drop rate of various rare items. Similar to the mosshorn, but for specific enemy types.

For example:
Miners have incaps against Golems, Gargoyles and other rock and/or dirt-like creatures.
Botanists have incaps against Treants, Morbols, Roselings and other plant-like creatures.
Fishers have incaps against Cassiopeia, Slugs, Orobon, and other sea creatures.

Of course DoW/M would have the majority of incapacitation moves, but this would provide a way to enhance gatherer gameplay, and I think it also fits within the realm of believability of "gathering" items from these specific creature-types.

I would be perfectly fine with gatherers not being able to solo the creatures, and requiring the assistance of DoW/M classes. Cooperation and interdependence for the win! :D

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I really hope that SE brings back the idea of the gathering classes (and possibly crafting classes) having incapacitation moves against against certain enemy types, which would increase the drop rate of various rare items. Similar to the mosshorn, but for specific enemy types.

For example:
Miners have incaps against Golems, Gargoyles and other rock and/or dirt-like creatures.
Botanists have incaps against Treants, Morbols, Roselings and other plant-like creatures.
Fishers have incaps against Cassiopeia, Slugs, Orobon, and other sea creatures.

Of course DoW/M would have the majority of incapacitation moves, but this would provide a way to enhance gatherer gameplay, and I think it also fits within the realm of believability of "gathering" items from these specific creature-types.

I would be perfectly fine with gatherers not being able to solo the creatures, and requiring the assistance of DoW/M classes. Cooperation and interdependence for the win! :D

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the funny thing to me is

miners have a big pick....you can't tell me hitting something with that after poking holes in rock all day can't do damage.

the botanist have an axe....some of them look nicer than the mrd weapons, but they can't cut a rat.

fishers carry a gig for spearfishing.... that'd deffinitely poke a hole in anything

the best thing these classes can do with their nice dangerous weapons is pick up a pebble and throw it............

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

WTF. Why are you being so obtuse? I am saying a functioning economy works on the exchange of goods an services. DoW, DoL, and DoM farm materials and SELL THEM. DoH craft and SELL THEIR CRAFTS.

In the event of a quest which they cannot do, DoH and DoL either switch to a DoW/DoM or hire one to fight for them if they can't do a quest.

It's called exchange of services.

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/agree!

this is what it supposed to be! Exchange of service.
DoW hunt their NM stuffs and then they should give it to crafter to make the gear for them back. They should know how to respect crafters who has the gut to bare all those repetitive mini-game just so he can craft gear for them. if they don't like to craft, nobody force them to do so anyway, MMO-game is not kind of game that one person can do everything. You gonna need to rely on crafters because you dislike the mini-game. and He gonna need your help to get materials in exchange anyway.

I even post in another topic to suggest more type of cooperation between crafter/gatherer and fighters. Gatherer may have to gather the item from the monster while the fighters are holding it at bay to get rare stuffs. Or leather worker can rip skin from monster directly during battle.

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Originally Posted by Alise

/agree!

this is what it supposed to be! Exchange of service.
DoW hunt their NM stuffs and then they should give it to crafter to make the gear for them back. They should know how to respect crafters who has the gut to bare all those repetitive mini-game just so he can craft gear for them. if they don't like to craft, nobody force them to do so anyway, MMO-game is not kind of game that one person can do everything. You gonna need to rely on crafters because you dislike the mini-game. and He gonna need your help to get materials in exchange anyway.

I even post in another topic to suggest more type of cooperation between crafter/gatherer and fighters. Gatherer may have to gather the item from the monster while the fighters are holding it at bay to get rare stuffs. Or leather worker can rip skin from monster directly during battle.

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if you followed his post earlier in which i replied to he said the crafters should make the gear for free and not charge for them. this was why i replied about getting me free materials. he is saying pay for the main story to be done for them. wouldn't that go against your instinct to play the game to follow someone around to leech the main storyline?

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

why are you overlooking the fact that the difference is they are not paying the crafters to do their story quests? i already said that the crafters should have their own main story quest. why are you ignoring the issue?

the issue IS the quests are gimped because of dol/doh being in them as well as just having some horrible dom/dow classes that can't do anything half competent.

the easiest solution IS give the doh/dol their own main story quest so they can advance in the game as much as any other class in game. then both get what they want and the only people you can blame on the gimped fights are the people playing battle classes that are incompetent.

i am saying this as someone with both a dow and a dom at 50 so i feel the other battle classes pain, but feel leaving the other disciples out of the main story would be wrong. if you notice i do not have a dol or doh at 50 so i am not taking up for myself, but for others.

if they want dol/doh to be full classes i have no issue with that, but they should have a storyline for them in which battle is not part of their story. the main story is nothing more than a class quest you can do based off a single level so why not split it into disciples and let each one have their own story advancement? this would not affect us battle classes at all and not have the other disciples left to be inferior.

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I have both a R50 DoW and a DoH to 50 and I consider myself primarily a crafter.

With that said, I don't think crafting should have its own storyline separate from the main one primarily because it's such a flagrant waste of development time when most people will have a DoW class they can perform the story quest as, or alternatively, a DoW friend they can use as a crutch to get them through it.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

if you followed his post earlier in which i replied to he said the crafters should make the gear for free and not charge for them. this was why i replied about getting me free materials. he is saying pay for the main story to be done for them. wouldn't that go against your instinct to play the game to follow someone around to leech the main storyline?

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Well, it would be a bit disappointing to feel like a complete leech. Perhaps a better solution would be to require the crafter to perform some action specific to their class, but need DoW/M support to do so? I don't want to post up spoiler, but many of the craft / gather quests have you do something similar.

However, this is definitely a more manpower-intensive type of thing for SE to do, so it wouldn't make sense to do so beyond the main storyline. The main storyline is a bit unique, since it explains a lot of the current situation in Eorzea, so it's kind of something that all players should see.

There are quite a few sidequests that are DoW/M only, and I'm sure that the new dungeon content will be DoW/M only. This is all fine. However, it would also be nice if some new content and gameplay were introduced for crafters / gatherers.

For crafters, perhaps group crafting similar to the synergy system to allow epic crafting sessions.

For gatherers, perhaps joint DoW/M - DoL raids on monster-infested areas with rare item gather points.

Exchange of service can be done in many way.

In the past, we did use the system that is a trade between item to service, or item to item, or service to service. However, it is impractical because each stuffs can have different value. So in the end, we change that system into nowadays "currency system" So basically, you can price your materials whatever you want. Demand/Supply will be the cut into your price. In the other hand, crafters, can price his product whatever he want too, and demand/supply will be the cut into his price too.

You may want to remind that :

-DoL gain a lot of money while they leveling.
-DoW gain little money while they leveling. (I don't think they change gear often enough to make the gil they gain from leves 100k/reset become a loss)
-DoH lose a lot of money while they leveling. So of course, they gonna need some profit back by selling product if they not gain money from other source such as DoW/DoL.

*pure DoH won't be able to survive nowadays, because selling product gain no profit, and the cost is very high, Nowadays all the people who are leveling crafts need to spend the money from other classes into this investment*