"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

At the risk of repeating myself. Just because you point your finger and say what I say is a "gotcha" doesn't make that a "gotcha".

Not to mention absolutely nothing here addresses my points. What is even your goal there?

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I doubt YPYT is a common tank problem. What I do believe that it's used to accuse tanks of a YPYT mindset if the DPS just ignores the tank completely or if a tank dares to stop for one AOE to get full aggro.
Maybe its is just a difference in DC culture, but I wouldn't put it past toxic individualists to force their way by any means necessary, even in a videogame.
You say it doesn't matter who pulls, I say it reeks of abuse, especially when the reality in 99% of duties I've taken part in as a DPS is different.

Apologies in advance if this is already covered somewhere else in the thread; I've read a fair number of pages but it's a looong thread!

That aside, what IS the etiquette for playing tank in content which involves having more than one on a team? Genuine query as am new to playing Tank (Paladin) and apparently offended at least one other tank in an AR roulette instance of Syrcus Tower by having enmity. Granted, at one point it was a byproduct of using provoke when there was more than one target present, and I may have used it a second time without thinking (even with my enmity switched off) but to be fair - there was no discussion around who was supposed to be the so-called "main tank" and can therefore only assume whoever has the most obvious case of main character syndrome takes that 'role'?

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Apologies in advance if this is already covered somewhere else in the thread; I've read a fair number of pages but it's a looong thread!

That aside, what IS the etiquette for playing tank in content which involves having more than one on a team? Genuine query as am new to playing Tank (Paladin) and apparently offended at least one other tank in an AR roulette instance of Syrcus Tower by having enmity. Granted, at one point it was a byproduct of using provoke when there was more than one target present, and I may have used it a second time without thinking (even with my enmity switched off) but to be fair - there was no discussion around who was supposed to be the so-called "main tank" and can therefore only assume whoever has the most obvious case of main character syndrome takes that 'role'?

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Well, I think generally in Alliance raids only one tank holds the aggro, unless there are more than one mobs, or bosses, in which case all tanks pull for their group to distribute them along alliances. Same with 8-man content.
It's easier for melee DPS if the boss doesn't constantly run around between 2 tanks. Just check on who has tank stance on. A tank may request to switch with another tank. You turn on tank stance and get aggro.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

[...]Maybe its is just a difference in DC culture[...]

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See, this is something that I genuinely found interesting. Anecdotally speaking since the time I started playing & a half years ago, the people who tend to 'support' tank as the puller tend to be either EU or JP based. Over here in NA, while there are few YPYTs, those amounted to less than one hand annually. Almost everybody here wants to run fast. If non-tanks happened to run ahead and pulls, no biggie. Most tanks here would just run together and pick up everything with their AoE near the end of each walls. No deaths nor hissy fits. On less common occasions, sometimes either tank or healer would even comment "I love DPS pulls with Arm's Length" and this happened more than the YPYTs. If there are any YPYTs, they usually come in pair (with friend or 'couple', usually their healer) or get VK'd real fast when they're alone.

Maybe it IS a difference in DC culture, but at the end of the day, in my eyes this looks like 'majority rules' as the ruling power here: don't get antagonistic with what the party wants to do. If they want it slow or fast, then go with the flow. Persuasion is an option, but do so without sparking unnecessary arguments or use the door.

This is the first mmo i ever played where the community thinks its ok to pull more aggro. I don't really get why that's even a thing to begin with. People in too big of a hurry.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

See, this is something that I genuinely found interesting. Anecdotally speaking since the time I started playing & a half years ago, the people who tend to 'support' tank as the puller tend to be either EU or JP based. Over here in NA, while there are few YPYTs, those amounted to less than one hand annually. Almost everybody here wants to run fast. If non-tanks happened to run ahead and pulls, no biggie. Most tanks here would just run together and pick up everything with their AoE near the end of each walls. No deaths nor hissy fits. On less common occasions, sometimes either tank or healer would even comment "I love DPS pulls with Arm's Length" and this happened more than the YPYTs. If there are any YPYTs, they usually come in pair (with friend or 'couple', usually their healer) or get VK'd real fast when they're alone.

Maybe it IS a difference in DC culture, but at the end of the day, in my eyes this looks like 'majority rules' as the ruling power here: don't get antagonistic with what the party wants to do. If they want it slow or fast, then go with the flow. Persuasion is an option, but do so without sparking unnecessary arguments or use the door.

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It's 'cos most Americans are very self-absorbed. I am one. So I would know by just going outside on an average day. And the majority of the player base is American (why else are there so many NA servers?)
If you go poke at every post of people angrily being against You Pull You Tank, they're all saying the same thing. "It's because you're not letting me dictate the pace of the dungeon". It's always about me, me, me, me. It's really curious why none of them ever choose to just be the tank themselves.... If not rarely.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I love how every pro YPYT argument comes down to “you just don’t care about the tank and want them to play how you want” but then the core of YPYT as an action is literally “play how I want or I’ll let you die”

Like why is the tank any more “important” in how they want to play. If the DPS wants to pull ahead and the tank doesn’t why is the tank more “right” in that case and the wishes of the tank should be respected, why not the DPS? If you want your gameplay or playing at your own pace to be respected you should also respect other people want to play at a different pace. Your game pace isn’t more important because it’s slower

Like unless you are in a situation where the tank wants to pull slow and the healer and DPS side with the tank and the other DPS pulls anyway which is just basic adherence to the will of the majority why is the tanks “opinion” on the actions of the rest of the party any more important than anyone else’s. Because the only argument I’ve ever heard about that just comes down a nebulous expectation of “courtesy” that pulling is naturally the tanks role despite nothing backing that up so from there somehow the pace the tank wants is the only expected consideration

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As TBerry demonstrated quite clearly, the issue here is 100% ego. The tank is the leader and don't you dare going ahead of them.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

It's 'cos most Americans are very self-absorbed. I am one. So I would know by just going outside on an average day. And the majority of the player base is American (why else are there so many NA servers?)
If you go poke at every post of people angrily being against You Pull You Tank, they're all saying the same thing. "It's because you're not letting me dictate the pace of the dungeon". It's always about me, me, me, me. It's really curious why none of them ever choose to just be the tank themselves.... If not rarely.

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I was a main tank from 5.5 to about 7.1 and never had any issue with DPS pulling ahead of me. But that may be because I never considered myself to be the absolute leader and the only one with the privilege to pull. Or maybe because I'm not american, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I love how every pro YPYT argument comes down to “you just don’t care about the tank and want them to play how you want” but then the core of YPYT as an action is literally “play how I want or I’ll let you die”

Like why is the tank any more “important” in how they want to play. If the DPS wants to pull ahead and the tank doesn’t why is the tank more “right” in that case and the wishes of the tank should be respected, why not the DPS? If you want your gameplay or playing at your own pace to be respected you should also respect other people want to play at a different pace. Your game pace isn’t more important because it’s slower

Like unless you are in a situation where the tank wants to pull slow and the healer and DPS side with the tank and the other DPS pulls anyway which is just basic adherence to the will of the majority why is the tanks “opinion” on the actions of the rest of the party any more important than anyone else’s. Because the only argument I’ve ever heard about that just comes down a nebulous expectation of “courtesy” that pulling is naturally the tanks role despite nothing backing that up so from there somehow the pace the tank wants is the only expected consideration

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It's courtesy to the entire party, not just the tank, because in most games with the Tank Healer DPS dichotomy, enemies are not immediately fully reigned in by the tank right away and they will eat your non-tanks alive in a near instant. This is still true in ARR dungeons for FFXIV, and it was true in HW and Stormblood before Shadowbringers combat changes rolled in.

The courtesy doesn't just stop existing in apropos of nothing. It's there for a reason.

I really don't think folks should be running ahead of the tank for any reason.

For starters, if this is a roulette, you are probably in there with total strangers and have no idea how good (or not) they are. Why start off with wall to wall, only to discover later they can't handle it?

Furthermore, there's no time to discuss things with the party as everyone generally runs forward as soon as it begins.

I have had dps people run ahead while the healer is having connection issues. I have had situations where we just started fighting one group of mobs and the healer runs off to pull another. Not only does this mean no heals for a while, but healer risks getting killed.

I won't YPYT because that would waste time (arguing, waiting for you to come back, arguing, etc...). However, running ahead like that because you're impatient is bad play. If party wipes, you will have cost us more time than you saved.

I can understand why people YPYT as it's the only way to make people experience consequences for their actions. Running ahead of the tank just stresses people out and can potentially cause problems. No other mmo considers this acceptable.

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Originally Posted by jesseleewelch

This is the first mmo i ever played where the community thinks its ok to pull more aggro. I don't really get why that's even a thing to begin with. People in too big of a hurry.

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The biggest reason you see it in this game is the fact that nothing in a normal dungeon is a real threat to anyone, some dps jobs tank better than others but if there's a healer paying attention then your risk of death even pulling W2W as a VPR is zero. It's also the reason why healers in this game are miserable, nothing is a threat to anyone so we don't have a job but that's a side tangent.

For the thread though, I've seen a few YPYT tanks in my four to five years playing and the first time rather than "punishing the dps" all it did was make my life harder for no reason and we wiped because I wasn't paying attention on account of the tank being WAR in late EW content. The second time was kinda funny because in the roulette after I saw that same tank player as a dps and HE was pulling before the tank.

Ngl, regardless of whether I'm tank, healer, or DPS I'm usually rushing ahead. Dungeons are boring as hell. The pre-50 ones with the really long pulls and healers having fewer skills at that level, okay, sure, don't W2W if you're not sure of it. But after they settled into the dungeons literally being designed to wall to wall? There's no excuses, tbh. At 100 you'd have to be actively trying to not pop any mits as a tank to die. If it's a WAR especially I don't even bother healing at all, because why would I when their natural rotation just keeps them spiked to full? Even DPS have tools to keep up a bit, certainly beyond long enough to have a tank pick things up. Aggro barely exists, resources barely exist. Just get to the wall ASAP to clear and get out of the dungeon. Anything over fifteen minutes just becomes a slog.

Just report griefing tanks with this mentality and one day they will learn.

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Originally Posted by Xurtan

Ngl, regardless of whether I'm tank, healer, or DPS I'm usually rushing ahead. Dungeons are boring as hell. The pre-50 ones with the really long pulls and healers having fewer skills at that level, okay, sure, don't W2W if you're not sure of it. But after they settled into the dungeons literally being designed to wall to wall? There's no excuses, tbh. At 100 you'd have to be actively trying to not pop any mits as a tank to die. If it's a WAR especially I don't even bother healing at all, because why would I when their natural rotation just keeps them spiked to full? Even DPS have tools to keep up a bit, certainly beyond long enough to have a tank pick things up. Aggro barely exists, resources barely exist. Just get to the wall ASAP to clear and get out of the dungeon. Anything over fifteen minutes just becomes a slog.

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Sounds like another game might be better for you.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Just report griefing tanks with this mentality and one day they will learn.

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I don't think its the tanks that are griefing. It's the nontank pullers.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

The biggest reason you see it in this game is the fact that nothing in a normal dungeon is a real threat to anyone, some dps jobs tank better than others but if there's a healer paying attention then your risk of death even pulling W2W as a VPR is zero. It's also the reason why healers in this game are miserable, nothing is a threat to anyone so we don't have a job but that's a side tangent.

For the thread though, I've seen a few YPYT tanks in my four to five years playing and the first time rather than "punishing the dps" all it did was make my life harder for no reason and we wiped because I wasn't paying attention on account of the tank being WAR in late EW content. The second time was kinda funny because in the roulette after I saw that same tank player as a dps and HE was pulling before the tank.

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I mean what better way to compensate for your loss of ego boost than pulling as a DPS?

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Just report griefing tanks with this mentality and one day they will learn.

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I guarantee you if you repeatedly report tanks for being slow, you will get an account penalty.

And if not yet, just give it some time now that you've posted this opinion.

The only thing that’s reportable is YPYT as that’s considered MPK

You won’t get a warning for pulling as a DPS because the tank has an ego nor will you get a warning for reporting the tank because they don’t know what the sprint button is

But YPYT is 100% actionable because it’s direct MPK

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The only thing that’s reportable is YPYT as that’s considered MPK

You won’t get a warning for pulling as a DPS because the tank has an ego nor will you get a warning for reporting the tank because they don’t know what the sprint button is

But YPYT is 100% actionable because it’s direct MPK

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They have to openly admit that's their intent is your first problem. If you bring up "they didn't have stance on" SE has to automatically assume good faith and think they probably just might've forgotten, or even accidently turned it off.

Square can read the combat logs, if everyone is relatively normal then suddenly after a DPS pulls stance disappears and the tank doesn’t do anything; especially if the DPS says “hey can you please pull the mobs off me” and nothing gets done then it’s hard to construe that as anything besides intentional retaliation

Okay what if the tank DC’ed or is actually just that incompetent? Well if they are then the DPS dying to the mobs won’t be followed by the tank immediately taking agro back and saving everyone else or giving a Lecture about how they are the only one who can pull

Square aren’t vampires, they don’t need to be invited in to give warnings, YPYT is very easy to distinguish from just a really really incompetent tank or an accident

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Square can read the combat logs, if everyone is relatively normal then suddenly after a DPS pulls stance disappears and the tank doesn’t do anything; especially if the DPS says “hey can you please pull the mobs off me” and nothing gets done then it’s hard to construe that as anything besides intentional retaliation

Okay what if the tank DC’ed or is actually just that incompetent? Well if they are then the DPS dying to the mobs won’t be followed by the tank immediately taking agro back and saving everyone else or giving a Lecture about how they are the only one who can pull

Square aren’t vampires, they don’t need to be invited in to give warnings, YPYT is very easy to distinguish from just a really really incompetent tank or an accident

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They have to assume it was accidentally turned off because there's no proof of intent. Did we just ignore this part????

Section 2.9 (“Other Prohibited Activities”) and Section 3 (“Prohibited Activities”) both emphasize that obstructive behavior, or disruptive use of the service are forbidden.

Repeatedly reporting people without just cause could reasonably be considered disruption to service (tying up CS labor), they would likely fall under the broader “Prohibited Activities.” Square Enix reserves the right to suspend or terminate accounts for that kind of misuse.

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Now, if a tank is in your group and they explicitly state "I am going to let _________ die because they pulled instead of me.", then yes, that is grounds for reporting and subsequent suspension.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

They have to assume it was accidentally turned off because there's no proof of intent. Did we just ignore this part????

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And like I said proof of intent doesn’t have to be “I’m turning my stance off because I’m trying to teach you a lesson. Turning your stance off for exactly the amount of time a DPS who pulled needs to die before turning it back on to save everyone else can be proof in it of itself because they have the logs to show when the tank did or didn’t pull

Especially since YPYT is rarely done in isolation, if it was an accident and the DPS pulled again then the tank would just pick up the mobs, YPYT would turn their stance off again. It’s not hard to show

While i agree that nontank pullers are the problem, the whole YPYT thing hurts more people than just the griefer it's intended to hurt.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And like I said proof of intent doesn’t have to be “I’m turning my stance off because I’m trying to teach you a lesson. Turning your stance off for exactly the amount of time a DPS who pulled needs to die before turning it back on to save everyone else can be proof in it of itself because they have the logs to show when the tank did or didn’t pull

Especially since YPYT is rarely done in isolation, if it was an accident and the DPS pulled again then the tank would just pick up the mobs, YPYT would turn their stance off again. It’s not hard to show

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I think you're naive to expect the CS reps to dig through the combat logs of every last vague report and piece together an FBI timeline of events based on timestamps. They do that for high-publicity raider controversy, not joe-nobodys on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

I think you're naive to expect the CS reps to dig through the combat logs of every last vague report and piece together an FBI timeline of events based on timestamps. They do that for high-publicity raider controversy, not joe-nobodys on the forums.

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What else do you think the GM’s are doing, that’s literally their job

It’s not that hard to look into a log and go “oh DPS pulled at 16.15, tank stance goes off at 16.17, DPS dies at 17.01, tank stance on at 17.05, situation repeats at next pull at 19.25, DPS reported tank for MPK”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

What else do you think the GM’s are doing, that’s literally their job

It’s not that hard to look into a log and go “oh DPS pulled at 16.15, tank stance goes off at 16.17, DPS dies at 17.01, tank stance on at 17.05, situation repeats at next pull at 19.25, DPS reported tank for MPK”

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I can promise you, they won't look that deeply for one off affairs. They're trained to treat these incidents as "it's just one or two dudes angry at each other but neither of them are doing anything actually serious" and they CTRL+V a canned response telling you to blacklist the person if you don't like them.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

I guarantee you if you repeatedly report tanks for being slow, you will get an account penalty.

And if not yet, just give it some time now that you've posted this opinion.

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I don't mind a slow tank. I mind a tank being belligerent and turning off their stance to make a person die on purpose. That's griefing. I don't care what personal etiquette they feel was slighted. I'll just report them, I don't need to have a debate in party chat.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I don't mind a slow tank. I mind a tank being belligerent and turning off their stance to make a person die on purpose. That's griefing. I don't care what personal etiquette they feel was slighted. I'll just report them, I don't need to have a debate in party chat.

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Let's keep the playing field even here. YPYT is griefing against one player. Nontanks running ahead of tank to pull is griefing whole party.

I think the best remedy here is to bring back stiff penalties for dying in pve. That way, people stop being reckless and pulling ahead of tank.

This is all making a mountain out of molehill.

If everyone's already running toward a pack of mobs, it borders on irrelevant who gets aggro first. Maybe the healer has to toss out an extra spot heal.

If the tank parks themselves at a pack, and someone runs ahead and aggros more mobs... Well, if they come back, the tank does what they were already doing (AoE), and maybe the healer tosses out some more heals. If they don't bother coming back, then they can enjoy their time in Narnia. (Though, if the tank is at least as competent as a trust tank, they'd run up and grab aggro.)

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Originally Posted by jesseleewelch

Let's keep the playing field even here. YPYT is griefing against one player. Nontanks running ahead of tank to pull is griefing whole party.

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A bruise to the tanks ego is not griefing the entire party

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

That aside, what IS the etiquette for playing tank in content which involves having more than one on a team? Genuine query as am new to playing Tank (Paladin) and apparently offended at least one other tank in an AR roulette instance of Syrcus Tower by having enmity. Granted, at one point it was a byproduct of using provoke when there was more than one target present, and I may have used it a second time without thinking (even with my enmity switched off) but to be fair - there was no discussion around who was supposed to be the so-called "main tank" and can therefore only assume whoever has the most obvious case of main character syndrome takes that 'role'?

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If you have your stance on: Stand with the other tanks who have their stance on. Whoever wins aggro by doing damage, well, wins aggro, but because you're all in the same spot, the boss won't go spinning.

If you see another tank Provoke, turn your stance off for a bit, and just let them keep aggro. It's not worth fighting over. /two-cents

There's usually no reason to use Provoke (a ranged attack or AoE works just as well in normal circumstances), and some people view Provoke as a sign that you are the one suffering from main character syndrome. Hence, my previous point.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

If you have your stance on: Stand with the other tanks who have their stance on. Whoever wins aggro by doing damage, well, wins aggro, but because you're all in the same spot, the boss won't go spinning.

If you see another tank Provoke, turn your stance off for a bit, and just let them keep aggro. It's not worth fighting over. /two-cents

There's usually no reason to use Provoke (a ranged attack or AoE works just as well in normal circumstances), and some people view Provoke as a sign that you are the one suffering from main character syndrome. Hence, my previous point.

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Yeah, if I'm tanking in an Alliance Raid I wait a few seconds and see if anyone pulls, then if they don't I just go ahead and do it. If someone keeps trying to get aggro I immediately turn my stance off and let them have it. If there are two tanks fighting over the enemy it becomes extremely annoying for everyone else to deal with the cleaves and whatnot that may be there. (Even worse when you get all three trying to do it)

Agreed, you need to be A tank, not THE tank.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

A bruise to the tanks ego is not griefing the entire party

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Only one thought going on here.

Occasionally you'd actually get the "main protag"-tanks that insists to be the MT but repeatedly losing aggro because they either undergeared, not pressing buttons, or combination of both. These ones would usually resort in voking on cooldown. If you are one of the tank you have two options. Neither are the 'correct 100% way' so use your judgment:

• If you're confident you are tanking the boss correctly (i.e. not cleaving the raid) and they're not, feel free to take back the aggro with your own Provoke.
• If said MT isn't necessarily putting the raid in danger, feel free to just turn off stance for a good minute or two then turning them back on again later. Theoretically, this should let that MT have good enmity lead.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Occasionally you'd actually get the "main protag"-tanks that insists to be the MT but repeatedly losing aggro because they either undergeared, not pressing buttons, or combination of both. These ones would usually resort in voking on cooldown. If you are one of the tank you have two options. Neither are the 'correct 100% way' so use your judgment:

• If you're confident you are tanking the boss correctly (i.e. not cleaving the raid) and they're not, feel free to take back the aggro with your own Provoke.
• If said MT isn't necessarily putting the raid in danger, feel free to just turn off stance for a good minute or two then turning them back on again later. Theoretically, this should let that MT have good enmity lead.

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If they can't out DPS me and try to voke spam to have aggro, I just voke it right back.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

Sounds like another game might be better for you.

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I see this argument a lot and I continue to not really understand it. I like a lot of things about the game. Outside of DT the story has been fun, I enjoy raiding, I enjoy spending time with my guild and going to venues, I enjoy crafting and selling things. Unfortunately dungeons are required content in a lot of ways (everything is locked behind MSQ, which has dungeons, or tome grind, which is dungeons); so if I don't like them, there's not... really a solution, even if I enjoy the majority of the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Xurtan

I see this argument a lot and I continue to not really understand it. I like a lot of things about the game. Outside of DT the story has been fun, I enjoy raiding, I enjoy spending time with my guild and going to venues, I enjoy crafting and selling things. Unfortunately dungeons are required content in a lot of ways (everything is locked behind MSQ, which has dungeons, or tome grind, which is dungeons); so if I don't like them, there's not... really a solution, even if I enjoy the majority of the rest of the game.

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I get what you mean here, since, I tend to complain a lot. Perhaps even frivolously sometimes. My perspective is if you don't feel like doing it, and you have no obligation to do it, then it is a case of a simple problem. And simple problems have simple solutions. You just don't do it. I don't usually feel like crafting. But today, I felt like crafting. So I just sat around Cosmic Exploration zones. Tomorrow? Well I'll have to see then. Maybe I'll wanna craft more. Maybe not.

I can imagine other individuals will ask, or think, "what's crafting got to do with tanking????". And that question..... is not my problem.

Ulrimately it may just be another symptom of toxic individualism, where everyone just sees everyone as a means to an end with no courtesy, and setting personal experience above other players.
This can be seen in all facettes of the game, especially on NA servers.