The Monk Temple

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

i use the fuma chest because, on paper, the secondary stats on fuma seem to outweigh the melee chest - and that's from both sets of secondary stat weights i've seen (being Det= 0.22/Cr= 0.16/SS= 0.146 and Det= 0.223/Cr= 0.154/SS= 0.156, respectively)

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Hey, where did you find these stat weights?

I lov the neon yellow, @ elheggunte that's freaking awesome

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

albeit the loss of 4 str would at first glance make the melee the better piece, the math comes out to:
using str: 1.0, det: 0.223, Crit: 0.154, SkSp: 0.156
melee - 32.744
fuma - 32.917

using the "standard melee" stat weights of str: 1.0, det: 0.22, Crit: 0.16, Sks: 0.146
melee - 32.504
fuma - 32.98

plus, fuma isn't butt-ugly neon yellow :cool:

edit - also, i don't really consider skillspeed to be a useful stat for mnk, but that's personal preference

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You forget the 34 accuracy ...

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Originally Posted by Arasiel

You using Fracture?

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No. Waste of TP for barely a DpS increase.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

He specifically says that with an HQ stuffed cabbage you'd have 481 Accuracy. >_>

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I said regarding stat weights with accuracy. The Fuma is better yes, because it has det and crit, but you cannot just pass up the acc weights on the melee. In some cases accuracy and other stats like it that have strict caps can be weighted more than even str until the cap is hit, which would make the melee way better if its utilized in a full build.
(I'll admit my wording could have been better :P)

Wow, wouldn't think that the Fuma Kuromo could out-do the Melee Cyclas but I'm not good at the stat weight calculations like some of you folks are. Would love for it to be true though as I love the look of that piece (and already have one).

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

You forget the 34 accuracy ...

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Didn't she mention gaining the ACC from the ifrit bracelet and the stuffed cabbage food?
I still can't see losing 4 str being worth it. But the stat weights seem about right.

Ignore me.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Didn't she mention gaining the ACC from the ifrit bracelet and the stuffed cabbage food?
I still can't see losing 4 str being worth it. But the stat weights seem about right.

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You still need to make up for the lost accuracy somewhere else, and that means taking an item with accuracy on another stat rather than det or crit.

Theirs no way a ilvl 80 item is gonna fit on any BiS, it might be good only if your current gear has waaay too much accuracy. And having too much accuracy is the one and only exception of CT chest being better than myth.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Didn't she mention gaining the ACC from the ifrit bracelet and the stuffed cabbage food?
I still can't see losing 4 str being worth it. But the stat weights seem about right.

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Can't believe this !

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Originally Posted by Rhained

You still need to make up for the lost accuracy somewhere else, and that means taking an item with accuracy on another stat rather than det or crit.

Theirs no way a ilvl 80 item is gonna fit on any BiS, it might be good only if your current gear has waaay too much accuracy. And having too much accuracy is the one and only exception of CT chest being better than myth.

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Like I said, I'm unsure of how the strength can be made up.
However, the accuracy is shuffled in such a way to reduce Skill Speed as much as possible.
I'm not sure it should] be completely ignored even though it has the lowest stat weight, but that's clearly the intention.
When following that, you just have to get more gains from the higher valued stats to equal out loss of strength (which is improbable with those weights).

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I now see though, that the comparison was item by item rather set by set.
So I don't really know how they valued the accuracy.

After calculating it myself -
That comparison literally just left out accuracy weight completely.
I take back all defense of their reasoning. You can't leave out a stat completely from an item and there's no way for the Melee Cyclas to lose if the accuracy is given proper weight.
Even using food to make up the acc, you're using the Stuffed Cabbage instead of the Black Truffle Risotto.
So yea, I'm with Rhained and Rapiso.

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

Can't believe this !

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Hey, I took it back.
I just read it wrong >_>

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

snippety snip snip>

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so then the combined total of using equip to put you above acc cap + determination food (buttons/black truffle) outweighs using gear + accuracy food?

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

so then the combined total of using equip to put you above acc cap + determination food (buttons/black truffle) outweighs using gear + accuracy food?

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That's not the issue. The issue is that no stat weight gains from secondary stats can outweigh the loss of 4 strength unless your accuracy is over 500 or something.
For example, using either of your stat weights will put using the Allagan pants or even just the Allagan Choker of Striking will allow you to pick up the Cyclas chest and gain dps from it.
That's not even all the options.

The difference between stat weights are not so different that you can make up for 4 strength.
To put that into perspective, you would need to replace ~286 skill speed with crit to get 4 strength.

So yea, you have other options to reduce your accuracy while keeping all ilvl90 and there's way to make up for dropping 4 strength by shuffling around secondary stats

@ Allyrion so basically your saying that so long that it will give m

Dammit at my previous post.... So long it gives me more str that it will always b better?


Binding
Gryphonskin Trousers
Legs
View Item Details
Defense
81
Magic Defense
81
Item Level 70
PGL MNK
Lv. 50

Bonuses

Strength +20
Vitality +22
Critical Hit Rate +27
Determination +13
Materia

Quickarm Materia IV
Skill Speed +9
Quickarm Materia IV
Skill Speed +9
Quickarm Materia III
Skill Speed +6
Quickarm Materia III
Skill Speed +3
Savage Might Materia III
Determination +4

That's a really good melding I got there. So ur telling me fuma will b better than that?
I have 492 acc.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

SNIP

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holy crap 286 skill speed/crit to equal 4 str?!?

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

Snip

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Homie's stat weights seemed fine and that was the premise I was working on since I don't have any weights myself.
To be clear, Melding lets you exceed the stat budget further than the ilvl of the gear.

Using -

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the "standard melee" stat weights of str: 1.0, det: 0.22, Crit: 0.16, Sks: 0.146

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Fuma is - 32.98 (as Homie had, I calculated myself and got the same result.
Your chest - 32.002
Since there's no Accuracy on this piece, it's a straight forward comparison.

It's fairly close for ilvl 70 piece, but you have to understand how much Strenght is worth.
Using those weights
1 Str = 6.8 SS = 6.25 Crit = 4.54 Det

Your piece is 5 Strength behind, meaning it would need something like 34 extra Skill Speed just to make up for that difference.
But melding has to make up for that as well as the lower amount of secondary stats on the base gear.

Your accuracy doesn't matter in this case because neither gives it.
So yea, I will say the Fuma is better.
The Gryphonskin does well to compare for what it is, but it still loses.

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

holy crap 286 skill speed/crit to equal 4 str?!?

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It's replacing 286 Skill Speed with 286 crit to actually gain 4 strength worth of points through secondary stat optimization.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
My point is that all non-melded gear of uses a certain budget based on their item level. You are shuffling the stats around to get a gain in dps. However since the values are so close and so much lower than strength, no shuffling or optimization can be done to make up for dropping 4 strength.

So...IS there a definite BiS list for monks?

As a newbie, I'd kinda like to know what to and what not to spend my myth on.

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Originally Posted by Eissels

So...IS there a definite BiS list for monks?

As a newbie, I'd kinda like to know what to and what not to spend my myth on.

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1)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/2097/MNK-...s-in-a-blanket
2)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/6433/MNK-...tuffed-Cabbage
3)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/6463/MNK-...Q-Deviled-Eggs

My BiS depending on food used

EDIT : 3) is the best set imo :o

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Originally Posted by TheHomieData

so then the combined total of using equip to put you above acc cap + determination food (buttons/black truffle) outweighs using gear + accuracy food?

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An easy example of a better combination than yours, using your standard stat weight:
Melee Cyclas + Allagan pants = 32.504 + 37.944 = 70.448
Fuma Chest + Melee Pants = 32.98 + 32.74 = 65.72

In this scenario, the accuracy can actually be properly ignored since both the Melee chest and the Melee Gaskins give the same accuracy.
I'm not making a BiS list, but the swap between these two make for a straight forward comparison as the accuracy is unchanged for the pairs.

Fuma can't stand up when given a *fair* comparison to a 90 set.

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

1)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/2097/MNK-...s-in-a-blanket
2)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/6433/MNK-...tuffed-Cabbage
3)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/6463/MNK-...Q-Deviled-Eggs

My BiS depending on food used
1) is the worst set.

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I agree with your sets.
The person you're replying to may get the impression the Cyclas isn't worth buying though.
Considering they were asking about myth spending. I'm pretty sure you consider it is since you're wearing it yourself.
Maybe make a pre-turn 5 BiS?

Personally, I gear around my drops and accuracy.
The Hero's Bracelet of Slaying is a safe choice.

Most Melee gear isn't ideal stat-wise compared to their Allagan counter parts, but they are good upgrades until you get the drops.
Most BiS lists don't include much Myth gear.
The head, feet and neck myth are also decent.

That's actually a waste gear slot if I need to come up with 34 skill speed just for me to keep my pans. I didn't know str weight that much.

I don't see how anyone is giving value to SS.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

I don't see how anyone is giving value to SS.

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Probably because it has a non-negative effect on DPS?

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

1)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/2097/MNK-...s-in-a-blanket
2)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/6433/MNK-...tuffed-Cabbage
3)http://xivdb.com/?wardrobe/6463/MNK-...Q-Deviled-Eggs

My BiS depending on food used

EDIT : 3) is the best set imo :o

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I actually use the first one of these 3, though i think garuda extreme ring slightly pulls ahead of allagan maiming ring. Though it might be almost perfectly as good as eachother if you consider the autocrit on bootshine.

Either way all 3 sets are pretty much in the realms of being the top, i personally dont like having to use food to reach accuracy cap (and i hate having green items equiped rofl, might have minor ocd).

Id like to have your thoughts on the garuda ring vs the allagan maiming one, im not as good at theorycrafting sets as id like to be:P

Anyway im getting pretty close, just need one of those rings, the belt and the allagan maiming bracelet.

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Originally Posted by Rhained

*SNIP*

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X-Primal loot is interchangeable with their Allagan equivalents.

Vortex Ring of Striking = Allagan Ring of Maiming
Tremor Earrings of Striking + Inferno Bangle of Striking = Allagan Earrings of Maiming + Allagan Bracelets of Maiming
*Keep ear/wrist sets together b/c of Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Probably because it has a non-negative effect on DPS?

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Any fight where you can run out of TP it would become a very bad or negative effect on dps. The only time SS is good is fights like ifrit where GL gets reset over and over.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Any fight where you can run out of TP it would become a very bad or negative effect on dps. The only time SS is good is fights like ifrit where GL gets reset over and over.

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New rotation for 2.1 has a slower TP drain than our 2.0 rotation, so SS is more viable. You still can't afford to stack it, but it does provide a dps increase.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Any fight where you can run out of TP it would become a very bad or negative effect on dps. The only time SS is good is fights like ifrit where GL gets reset over and over.

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2.06 GCD here, I usually ride top threat after tanks on Twintania, and I can make it through the whole fight without ever having to stop or even considerably slow DPSing and that's without paeon or ever going into conflags (now true, if I don't get in a conflag, though, I do usually get to <100 TP by the time the second neurolink drops, but divebomb gives you a breather to regain so that doesn't really matter). Learn to pace yourself and use Invigorate. SS is a useful stat.

I'm really curious how many fights in the game you actually run out of TP on. In my experience there aren't many. Turn 4 is about the only one I ever have to really slow down at certain parts to retain TP for Rockbreaker spamming on spiders.

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Originally Posted by Mishaela

2.06 GCD here, I usually ride top threat after tanks on Twintania, and I can make it through the whole fight without ever having to stop or even considerably slow DPSing and that's without paeon or ever going into conflags (now true, if I don't get in a conflag, though, I do usually get to <100 TP by the time the second neurolink drops, but divebomb gives you a breather to regain so that doesn't really matter). Learn to pace yourself and use Invigorate. SS is a useful stat.

I'm really curious how many fights in the game you actually run out of TP on. In my experience there aren't many. Turn 4 is about the only one I ever have to really slow down at certain parts to retain TP for Rockbreaker spamming on spiders.

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I agree my parser has me around 310 dps on twin so I'm always second in Aggro so never in the flag.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Any fight where you can run out of TP it would become a very bad or negative effect on dps. The only time SS is good is fights like ifrit where GL gets reset over and over.

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It literally can't negatively affect your total DPS. The only way it could possibly do so is if it actually subtracted out damage you should be doing. It doesn't do this, even on the occasions that you TP starve. If you're TP starved, the damage that you think is being subtracted out isn't, it's damage that you did earlier than you normally could have.

Another cool thing that could happen for us monks is that AotD let's us spread DOTs. Get DM going then AotD while DM is ticking and spread that ticks to multiple mobs. The duration of the ticks last depends on the time you have left on DM. It'll b much like a combo.

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

Another cool thing that could happen for us monks is that AotD let's us spread DOTs. Get DM going then AotD while DM is ticking and spread that ticks to multiple mobs. The duration of the ticks last depends on the time you have left on DM. It'll b much like a combo.

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it could be nice but too strong imo.we already have pretty insane dps and a skill to spread DOT will give a really really hight aoe dps buff.monk is supposed to have hight single target dps but lowest aoe.aoe of monk is already good enought.DOT spread skill would be too much.

Yeah very true

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Originally Posted by Mishaela

I'm really curious how many fights in the game you actually run out of TP on. In my experience there aren't many. Turn 4 is about the only one I ever have to really slow down at certain parts to retain TP for Rockbreaker spamming on spiders.

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Hydra, t1, almost t2, t4 (way worse now that I can stance change on soldiers), t5 before divebombs (unless I get conflag then I /cheer), Titan HM and Ultima HM. What I am curious about is how monks are not running out of TP...

I hit invigorate as soon as I am low enough to not waste TP but that isn't enough to keep me going long. I don't use ID and I don't use fracture anymore. Since the patch my TP has become even harder to keep up.

EDIT: 2.03 cooldown atm

60tp per tick... around 70 with invigorate.

Bootshine > True strike > Snap punch
60 + 50 + 50 = 160
2.03 + 2.03 + 2.03 = 6.09 seconds

That is about 2 ticks worth of TP in that time which is around 140 TP... I used 160 at least in that time.

Sorry for any errors... its very late/early.

SE should add TP regen or TP gain per hit as bonus on snap punch when deal from the rear. 15 second duration. That will solve our TP issues

@Rochetm can u post your rotation please. I've only done t1 and t2 and the only place I run out of TP is in Wp aoe burn and t1.

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

@Rochetm can u post your rotation please. I've only done t1 and t2 and the only place I run out of TP is in Wp aoe burn and t1.

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Dragon kick, Twin snakes, Demolish and ToD as needed. Bootshine, True strike and snap punch the rest of the time. I don't use a "rotation" because almost no bosses will not sit still long enough for me to use a perfect easy rotation. t1 is a good spot for rotations to get mixed up because of the tail swipe.

Of course I never truly run out of TP. I do get TP restricted though and I have to wait for ticks before I can use my next ability. If I wasn't out damaging everyone I think my FCs bards would ignore my screams for TP but since I am they tend to give me a hand and feed me a little TP from time to time.

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Originally Posted by raikage

I agree my parser has me around 310 dps on twin so I'm always second in Aggro so never in the flag.

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Total fight or time-on-target Twintania DPS?

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Hydra, t1, almost t2, t4 (way worse now that I can stance change on soldiers), t5 before divebombs (unless I get conflag then I /cheer), Titan HM and Ultima HM. What I am curious about is how monks are not running out of TP...

I hit invigorate as soon as I am low enough to not waste TP but that isn't enough to keep me going long. I don't use ID and I don't use fracture anymore. Since the patch my TP has become even harder to keep up..

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T1 - Don't understand unless your group is very low dps
T2 - Shouldn't come close to "almost" - With running out, dodging laser and random rots. Fairly safe to go balls out.
T4 - You can run out easy if you don't have a good system down. I've found a nice way to dps 100% and not run out. Without the aid of a bard.
T5 - I've only got to divebombs, but tp was never an issue. I can't give good insight on this fight, yet =[ Mega Sadface

TP has got BETTER for me after patch.

I don't use Fracture because of TP issue, sometimes I CAN'T even use ToD. I can only use ToD and Fracture when there are breaks between phases. I manage my TP very well, I use Invigorate as soon as dip under 600 TP.

I have mostly ilvl90 except for two rings. I have too much skill speed and still waiting for "better" gear upgades. Melee Cyclas > Allagan, Melee Gloves > Allagan, Allagan trousers > Melee, Hero's Belt > Allagan, Allagan Choker of Striking > Maiming/Hero's and Darklight/Gryphonskin rings > Any ilvl 90 rings.

For Ultima HM, Hydra, Caduceus my DPS is around 315-330 after patch without using limit break. My TP would get really low towards the end of the fight, sometimes I find myself waiting for a TP tic.

For Twintania my TP will get really low before the Divebomb phase, assuming I dont get hit with Conflags. I don't even AOE the adds, on T4 I don't even use AOE and I run out of TP towards the end of the fight if the BRD doesn't use Paeon. Titan HM I always run out of TP when overall DPS is low.

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Originally Posted by Oblit

For Ultima HM, Hydra, Caduceus my DPS is around 315-330 after patch without using limit break. My TP would get really low towards the end of the fight, sometimes I find myself waiting for a TP tic.

For Twintania my TP will get really low before the Divebomb phase, assuming I dont get hit with Conflags. I don't even AOE the adds, on T4 I don't even use AOE and I run out of TP towards the end of the fight if the BRD doesn't use Paeon. Titan HM I always run out of TP when overall DPS is low.

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I don't aoe on t4 anymore unless it looks like our dps is low but with tank threat buff our bards and mages can AoE hard so thats not an issue.