Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I never played Secret World, so I can't comment on how good this system would be. Either way, at least you're down for suggesting improvements. I like that. Most of what has been going on in this thread is people arguing over what endgame is or asking if someone has done absolutely everything in this game. Completely useless. Devs will get nothing from that, if they are reading this.

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TSW is all about puzzles and mysteries, combat exists mainly just to cater to people who like to shoot zombies, etc. (or if the story involves mopping up a bad guy).

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Originally Posted by AniKai

TSW is all about puzzles and mysteries, combat exists more or less to cater to people who like to shoot zombies, etc.

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To be honest, I do feel like adding more puzzles and mysteries in this game would definitely be a boon. Especially if they can combine certain puzzles into bosses as well.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

To be honest, I do feel like adding more puzzles and mysteries in this game would definitely be a boon. Especially if they can combine certain puzzles into bosses as well.

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A simple example of a puzzle thing might lead to a boss... Solve how that door with weirdo symbols is opened. TSW approach: lets present the player a few clues, a piece of music, and a bunch egyptian hieroglyphs on sides of a pyramid. So, there you go... Google ofc is a friend when it comes to e.g. egyptian hieroglyphs... (TSW actively tells people to use google, etc, as it is - its essential tool to solve some things, e.g. things that involve multiple languages, or the said hieroglyphs, or just ISBN codes...) In a way, part of the game is in-game, part of it exists in the wilderness of internet (they have in-game browser just for that purpose, to find things).

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Originally Posted by AniKai

Mmm, there's that... But what if mixing real mystery solving á la Secret World? Stuff that's not solvable by just clicking on things...

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Sorry, as someone that did play a little of the Secret World, no thanks. FFXI was bad enough with being cryptic with its quests, Secret World kinda took that to eleven. Never a fan of a game that requires a guide or hours of research/homework to progress.

If they could do it in a way that managed to not essentially need a guide or outside resources, I might say yes. The mystery ones tend to go a bit off the deep end where if you missed some random bit of lore dialogue from an NPC somewhere, it can become unsolvable. Say the Satasha Prisoners, or some NPC that is only around during certain Fate/Quest Chains for example. Or if you haven't gotten the Tonberry lore from the Sch job quests as another example.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Thank you. Though I'll still have to disagree that the lack of endgame is a problem. So we will just have to agree to disagree on that front.

As while I do enjoy plenty of the non endgame content in the game, there are also plenty of times I want stuff that is challenging to do at level cap.

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I think things will be released over time as the expansion progresses, like another max level zone and another deep dungeon.

At the same time, I think there's a problem when content is challenging only because it is end-game content.

Max Level zones, for example, stop being challenging when the next expansion is released, same with dungeons and raids.

I especially dislike additional end-game content that improves item level, I would prefer it be challenging content done strictly for cosmetic rewards. When the rewards are largely cosmetic, the content tends to have very long legs because the reward is theoretically always relevant. When the content is done specifically to increase item level, it tends to get dropped completely once that level is maxed out. That being said, I didn't like GW2, so some amount is good, and I think the amount in ff14 is ok.

I would totally support, for example, a deep dungeon that began at level 80, or a boss rush carnival for all jobs like Blue Mage.

Later on, they can be things that also give exp so it becomes an additional way to level at level 80 in a future expansion.

It's true when someone earlier said I was basically just arguing against WoW - yes, that's true, I dislike gear treadmills and how WoW uses gear to make it's player base engage in activity it doesn't care for.

WoW has other issues too but this post is forever long.

As long as additional end-game content doesn't impact your item level, I'm fine, and if it's challenging - awesome ;)

I'm someone who completed challenge modes in MoP and WoD where the rewards were strictly cosmetic.

Hmmmm, maybe we could have challenge mode dungeons in FF14 . . .

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Hmmmm, maybe we could have challenge mode dungeons in FF14 . . .

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That would be amazing :)

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

I think things will be released over time as the expansion progresses, like another max level zone and another deep dungeon.

At the same time, I think there's a problem when content is challenging only because it is end-game content.

Max Level zones, for example, stop being challenging when the next expansion is released, same with dungeons and raids.

I especially dislike additional end-game content that improves item level, I would prefer it be challenging content done strictly for cosmetic rewards. When the rewards are largely cosmetic, the content tends to have very long legs because the reward is theoretically always relevant. When the content is done specifically to increase item level, it tends to get dropped completely once that level is maxed out.

I would totally support, for example, a deep dungeon that began at level 80, or a boss rush carnival for all jobs like Blue Mage.

Later on, they can be things that also give exp so it becomes an additional way to level at level 80 in a future expansion.

It's true when someone earlier said I was basically just arguing against WoW - yes, that's true, I dislike gear treadmills and how WoW uses gear to make it's player base engage in activity it doesn't care for.

As long as additional end-game content doesn't impact your item level, I'm fine, and if it's challenging - awesome ;)

I'm someone who completed challenge modes in MoP and WoD where the rewards were strictly cosmetic.

Hmmmm, maybe we could have challenge mode in FF14 . . .

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The reason I would like it to be end game content is while there is plenty of things to do through out the game, once you hit cap things dry up. But I think that comes from a design perspective/veiwpoint issue that someone else made click in a different thread.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Imagine this being a thing and you have to go from X to Y for a quest without flying as a newbie.
This would be ridiculously annoying like it is in GW2.

I am better with being strongest on earth warrior of light, the killer of gods and dragons, who fought the apocalypse himself, than a weak noodle who will die from tree attacking him.
Can you even imagine how would that look? You could fight and defeat incredibly strong entities who are able to change reality and destroy it, yet you get killed by a bunch of rabbits or mushrooms.
That would be double ridiculous.

NO, lets write it down again.
You are playing a demi-god hercules-like warrior of light, the storngest "humanoid" in the universe who fought and defeated the world destroyer, Gods, dragons and entities who are able to change the physics and manipulate space and do anything they want, aaand you get killed by a squirell or turtle.
That would be the lamest thing i have ever seen.

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The whole not seeing eye to eye, I think is more from the difference of enjoying playing Superman beating up mostly minor villains in the absence of Kryptonite vs enjoying playing Batman beating up the same foes. Without Kryptonite, Superman gets no challenge from most foes he faces. In XIV's case, in ARR the Warrior of Light was more on the Batman side of the Scale, now it seems more like its on the Superman side of the scale. Without the Warrior of Lights version of Kryptonite, there is very little challenge most of the time.

I don't think gear or progression has much of anything to do with it at all. Just consider how entertaining or enjoyable most superhero fiction is, and where they and their typical opponents fit on the power scale. The reason there is a distinct feel of lack of end game content to some is more likely due to what our typical opponents are at end game outside of the MSQ. Run of the mill wildlife and the like, random dungeon mobs, etc. To some, our character is likened to a Demi-god or Primal. Pray tell what else in the world is supposed to provide a challenge to one Warrior of Light, let alone a group of them? There isn't much that fills the gap that the MSQ antagonist leaves once the MSQ is wrapped up. Where as in XI, your character was just viewed as an adventurer that had managed to perform some exceptional deeds, most things in the world were still a threat to any individual adventurer. Might be why there wasn't as much of a feeling of a lack of endgame in XI despite it actually probably having even less.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Sorry, as someone that did play a little of the Secret World, no thanks. FFXI was bad enough with being cryptic with its quests, Secret World kinda took that to eleven. Never a fan of a game that requires a guide or hours of research/homework to progress.

If they could do it in a way that managed to not essentially need a guide or outside resources, I might say yes. The mystery ones tend to go a bit off the deep end where if you missed some random bit of lore dialogue from an NPC somewhere, it can become unsolvable. Say the Satasha Prisoners, or some NPC that is only around during certain Fate/Quest Chains for example. Or if you haven't gotten the Tonberry lore from the Sch job quests as another example.

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The main problem would actually be:

- Once solved, all the novelty from the puzzles would be gone unless they make solution random, which is annoying

- You'd switch from "read/watch a guide on the dungeon" (which I'm fine with btw. not an attack on people getting prepared and not wasting others' time) to "read/watch a video about the puzzle' solution"

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

It doesn't matter at this point whether the OP specified what he wanted to your liking in the original post. Point is, he and others have long since done so now. So why are people pretending they still don't know what he is asking for and playing ignorant just to deny the simple truth in front of them?

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Who's doing that? I was responding to the claim that instanced content is wasted. Someone else wants to jump in to disagree over me saying these contents are used in endgame therefore they indirectly become endgame content is not me denying anything as far as what the original post is asking.

As far as the original post is concerned, I support their request, though I doubt the current FFXIV design would allow much to be done in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

So status report. Before the first week was over, I cleared turns 1-3 with pug groups. That is now on farm status. I expect to beat e4s before this week is over. Are you really telling me this is fine? That the one piece of content I will get in 6 months, I will have already beaten all of it after 2 weeks, when it used to take top groups 3 weeks to beat the entirety of savage? Now me, with my pug groups, can beat it in 2 weeks. The only piece of content that raiders enjoy is so easily beatable. If you really think this is okay, you're delusional.

P.S. I haven't been no lifeing it. I've been going to my full time job...

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So you got lucky with pugs and you claim that's going to happen for many people? Haha my guy there are people in pf that can't grasp simple mechanics and can't even hold their own in a fight. But obviously you are so great and better than everyone else so it is not fine for you to clear that fast. Look, I cleared the ENTIRETY of sigmascape in pugs but were they good pugs? They were better than my static at the time... sure but they were still wiping the group tons. I semi quit raiding next tier because I was bored and busy with real life. I didn't care one bit for Alphascape savage but I did do O9S and people were wiping that insanely easy fight. You have gotten 3 turns down in a week which is very possible if you spend lots of time trying to learn and that is CLEARLY what you have done. Sure, go beat E4S and then claim there is no challenging endgame content when you haven't killed both ultimates yet. AGAIN, IT IS NOT EASILY BEATABLE. You seriously just got lucky. I can't find a party worth a damn to even clear the first turn this tier yet but I expect that cause it is a pick up group by definition and I have been in 2 hours at most.

PS: You dont speak for the entirety of players here just cause you got lucky groups. More endgame content would be nice but for people that want challenging content there is ultimate. And I mean actual Ultimate clears... not using voice call outs for the mechanics via a bot like players have done to trivialize it. Also, I can't stress this enough. If you are bored with the monotonous cycle where gear is useless in 3 months then why are you hurting yourself and then unsubbing before doing it over again. You clearly dont enjoy it so why even play at all at that point?

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

So you got lucky with pugs and you claim that's going to happen for many people? Haha my guy there are people in pf that can't grasp simple mechanics and can't even hold their own in a fight. But obviously you are so great and better than everyone else so it is not fine for you to clear that fast. Look, I cleared the ENTIRETY of sigmascape in pugs but were they good pugs? They were better than my static at the time... sure but they were still wiping the group tons. I semi quit raiding next tier because I was bored and busy with real life. I didn't care one bit for Alphascape savage but I did do O9S and people were wiping that insanely easy fight. You have gotten 3 turns down in a week which is very possible if you spend lots of time trying to learn and that is CLEARLY what you have done. Sure, go beat E4S and then claim there is no challenging endgame content when you haven't killed both ultimates yet. AGAIN, IT IS NOT EASILY BEATABLE. You seriously just got lucky. I can't find a party worth a damn to even clear the first turn this tier yet but I expect that cause it is a pick up group by definition and I have been in 2 hours at most.

PS: You dont speak for the entirety of players here just cause you got lucky groups. More endgame content would be nice but for people that want challenging content there is ultimate. And I mean actual Ultimate clears... not using voice call outs for the mechanics via a bot like players have done to trivialize it. Also, I can't stress this enough. If you are bored with the monotonous cycle where gear is useless in 3 months then why are you hurting yourself and then unsubbing before doing it over again. You clearly dont enjoy it so why even play at all at that point?

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Luck? No, I put in time and unfortunately, during week 1 you do have to either leave a group if you think it's not working out, or reform with those who proved they can perform. It's not personal, but if people are dying then noone in that group is going to clear. You call it luck when I said beforehand I was going to clear 1-3 the first week? Anyways, my point was not to try to imply I'm 'better than everyone else'. I really don't think that at all. That's where your insecurity comes in. I'm telling you that I shouldn't be clearing this content this quickly. That's a design fault, not a result of me being some kind of godlike player. I'm also pretty close to clearing e4s right now as well. It amazes me that people are enjoying the same old cycle of content fed to them for 6 years with the tomestone/extreme/savage formula and such. Do you not want the devs to try to innovate just a tad? Your blind acceptance of this formula just encourages laziness from them.

P.S. I only brought up me clearing these raids as proof of what we've been saying before, since you guys love to rail others who ask for more endgame stuff when they don't show as having Savage clears, as if that disqualifies them from wanting more robust endgame content. Now I give you proof of what people have been saying about the content being too easy, and you call it luck. Yeah, okay. Believe what you want to.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Luck? No, I put in time and unfortunately, during week 1 you do have to either leave a group if you think it's not working out, or reform with those who proved they can perform. It's not personal, but if people are dying then noone in that group is going to clear. You call it luck when I said beforehand I was going to clear 1-3 the first week? Anyways, my point was not to try to imply I'm 'better than everyone else'. I really don't think that at all. That's where your insecurity comes in. I'm telling you that I shouldn't be clearing this content this quickly. That's a design fault, not a result of me being some kind of godlike player. I'm also pretty close to clearing e4s right now as well. It amazes me that people are enjoying the same old cycle of content fed to them for 6 years with the tomestone/extreme/savage formula and such. Do you not want the devs to try to innovate just a tad? Your blind acceptance of this formula just encourages laziness from them.

P.S. I only brought up me clearing these raids as proof of what we've been saying before, since you guys love to rail others who ask for more endgame stuff when they don't show as having Savage clears, as if that disqualifies them from wanting more robust endgame content. Now I give you proof of what people have been saying about the content being too easy, and you call it luck. Yeah, okay. Believe what you want to.

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For context, you've been moaning about the game being too easy and the formula being too boring for at least 4 years now. I'm not quite sure what you want people to tell you, at this stage.

People can make excuses like "oh, Ultimate is coming in 5.1" or "the world first clear time for e4s was in line with o4s", but at the end of the day it gets dark. It's obvious the game isn't what you're looking for. While others are contented, you demand more. It's not enough for you and it never will be. You don't enjoy Final Fantasy XIV, you enjoy your idealised version of Final Fantasy XIV that doesn't exist and will never exist.

There's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do, but lashing out at people who actively enjoy the game for being what is won't do much. Note, enjoy, not put up with. You seem to think we just ignore what you perceive as the game's flaws, rather than those being one of the big reasons we play in the first place.
My advice is to get your e4s clear, then unsub until Ultimate, likely coming in October. Then again, perhaps you may find peace of mind by simply searching out a new experience which ticks the boxes for you. Have you tried WoW?

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

For context, you've been moaning about the game being too easy and the formula being too boring for at least 4 years now. I'm not quite sure what you want people to tell you, at this stage.

People can make excuses like "oh, Ultimate is coming in 5.1" or "the world first clear time for e4s was in line with o4s", but at the end of the day it gets dark. It's obvious the game isn't what you're looking for. While others are contented, you demand more. It's not enough for you and it never will be. You don't enjoy Final Fantasy XIV, you enjoy your idealised version of Final Fantasy XIV that doesn't exist and will never exist.

There's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do, but lashing out at people who actively enjoy the game for being what is won't do much. Note, enjoy, not put up with. You seem to think we just ignore what you perceive as the game's flaws, rather than those being one of the big reasons we play in the first place.
My advice is to get your e4s clear, then unsub until Ultimate, likely coming in October. Then again, perhaps you may find peace of mind by simply searching out a new experience which ticks the boxes for you. Have you tried WoW?

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I lashed out because quite a few were actively trying to shut down my opinions and block my suggestions from reaching devs by saying 'no, everything is fine nothing new needs to be added even endgame is completely perfect.' Yes, I have tried WoW for about a year and left. Thank you bringing out my post from 4 years ago. I didn't even remember it existed. Kinda sad to think back on it now and realize no effort has been put in from the dev team to make endgame any better. You may be right that perhaps I should quit. But this game won't retain any kind of sizable endgame base with this formula. It really is missing out. That concerned me because FF has been my favorite franchise since I was a kid and I wanted them to succeed. I wanted them to draw in casuals and endgame players alike. It simply cannot keep endgame players like this, though. It is sad to think about. Maybe not for casuals, but for me, it is. But I guess what you and others are trying to say is you guys don't really want to coexist with raiders at all. You are afraid that we will somehow tarnish your jewel by making suggestions to try to better this game.

Sorry, I shouldn't be harsh in my tone with you since you haven't been towards me. Honestly, if there was an MMO out there that I have enjoyed recently, I'd definitely go there in a second.

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Originally Posted by linay

Who's doing that? I was responding to the claim that instanced content is wasted. Someone else wants to jump in to disagree over me saying these contents are used in endgame therefore they indirectly become endgame content is not me denying anything as far as what the original post is asking.

As far as the original post is concerned, I support their request, though I doubt the current FFXIV design would allow much to be done in that regard.

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Every non-ShB instance is only "endgame" in terms of currency rewarded due to the tomestone reward for doing a roulette, as a lvl 80 has no use for any item drop in those instances - so even the term "endgame" for doing old, non-scaled instances just to get a singular currency is questionable.

Imagine: if Expert roulette would be the only roulette to reward 5.x tomestones no one would be doing any other roulette -> every non-ShB content would be instantly obsolete for every lvl 80 character.

Agreed on the last paragraph: with the scope of lowest common denominator + the usual release cycle of trials/Ex/Savage until a new patch they've developed the game into a corner:

• I reckon the majority of players don't care much for difficult combat or aren't even capable of beating it in the first place
• With a fixed release cycle the game becomes stale at any point X towards the end of a patch, which means every max-level player can only do a very limited set of content over and over, and that gets old very quickly
• They have the tools to offer challenges: scaling-tech is already used, but so far only in scaling players down to fixed values for a certain dungeon, e.g. Sastasha. What they just need to do is doing the opposite = scaling mobs in an instanced content up, and you could play every instanced group content in the game on lvl 80. Sprinkle current tomestones, additional challenges + lvl 80 item drops on top of it and I reckon most of the dissatisfaction/resentment regarding a lack of endgame content will be gone

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

For context, you've been moaning about the game being too easy and the formula being too boring for at least 4 years now. I'm not quite sure what you want people to tell you, at this stage.

People can make excuses like "oh, Ultimate is coming in 5.1" or "the world first clear time for e4s was in line with o4s", but at the end of the day it gets dark. It's obvious the game isn't what you're looking for. While others are contented, you demand more. It's not enough for you and it never will be. You don't enjoy Final Fantasy XIV, you enjoy your idealised version of Final Fantasy XIV that doesn't exist and will never exist.

There's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do, but lashing out at people who actively enjoy the game for being what is won't do much. Note, enjoy, not put up with. You seem to think we just ignore what you perceive as the game's flaws, rather than those being one of the big reasons we play in the first place.
My advice is to get your e4s clear, then unsub until Ultimate, likely coming in October. Then again, perhaps you may find peace of mind by simply searching out a new experience which ticks the boxes for you. Have you tried WoW?

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I already get suspicious when someone is labeling criticism as "moaning".

And you don't disappoint:

• He is criticizing the clear lack of lvl 80 content, one distinct topic of the whole that if FF14, and in your mind that equates to "You don't enjoy FF14". Please describe your trail of though step by step until you can reach such a conclusion while adhering to logical coherence
• How do you know "it's not enough for him and it will never be"? And how can you proclaim that "...others are content" when the forums/in-game chat is filled with criticism? Do you somehow speak for an unnamed majority?
• Offering harsh criticism is "lashing out at people"?
• A sub-game like a MMORPGs depends on longevity, and here you are telling someone who wants to stay stubbed to play challenging content to "come back later when more of the same will be on the menu". Not the smartest advice, hm?

Just from that single post of yours you strike me as someone who can't face criticism and instead of falsifying the counter-arguments you resorts to hiding behind unnamed majorities "...others are content" or trying to discredit the bearer of said criticism, here labeling criticism as "moaning".

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I lashed out because quite a few were actively trying to shut down my opinions and block my suggestions from reaching devs by saying 'no, everything is fine nothing new needs to be added even endgame is completely perfect.' Yes, I have tried WoW for about a year and left. Thank you bringing out my post from 4 years ago. I didn't even remember it existed. Kinda sad to think back on it now and realize no effort has been put in from the dev team to make endgame any better. You may be right that perhaps I should quit. But this game won't retain any kind of sizable endgame base with this formula. It really is missing out. That concerned me because FF has been my favorite franchise since I was a kid and I wanted them to succeed. I wanted them to draw in casuals and endgame players alike. It simply cannot keep endgame players like this, though. It is sad to think about. Maybe not for casuals, but for me, it is. But I guess what you and others are trying to say is you guys don't really want to coexist with raiders at all. You are afraid that we will somehow tarnish your jewel by making suggestions to try to better this game.

Sorry, I shouldn't be harsh in my tone with you since you haven't been towards me. Honestly, if there was an MMO out there that I have enjoyed recently, I'd definitely go there in a second.

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It's hard to swallow something like "this endgame is unsustainable" when...it is actually very sustainable. It's sustained for almost 6 years now. In fact the last time endgame was in trouble was when Savage was overturned and world first raiders took longer than a week to kill it.

I stand by my statement that this endgame works. I think it works much better now that Ultimate was conceived. I think the time between Ultimate and Savage is good, it gives even non-week-1 killers ample time to get BiS to tackle it.

Savage could be better. I don't think that means (nor am I saying that's your statement) it's in a bad place. I say this as someone who's killed both Ultimates several times, and killed E4S week 1, before there's any insinuation that I'm a casual stating this.

I think the challenge logs should have their own type of wonderous trails book. Every time you complete a challenge log you get a stamp. Or something. There basically just needs to be more reoccurring weekly achievements like WT but with more variety. Something a bit more unique. Like instead of a WT that's like do this trial again. Which can be done unsync, these challenges could be more like, gain at least 10levels on a job this week. Craft 100 items not in quick synth. Defeat 50 A ranks. Do 10 Leveling Roulettes. It can honestly be anything, but what I mean is it's like the WT but in the forum of like the challenge log and it changes each week where as the challenge logs always stay consistent. And completing these give rewards that aren't just exp or 1000gil. They have their own type of currency and it can buy things akin to stuff you'd find at the gold saucer.

Im sure someone else can improve off this idea.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It's hard to swallow something like "this endgame is unsustainable" when...it is actually very sustainable. It's sustained for almost 6 years now. In fact the last time endgame was in trouble was when Savage was overturned and world first raiders took longer than a week to kill it.

I stand by my statement that this endgame works. I think it works much better now that Ultimate was conceived. I think the time between Ultimate and Savage is good, it gives even non-week-1 killers ample time to get BiS to tackle it.

Savage could be better. I don't think that means (nor am I saying that's your statement) it's in a bad place. I say this as someone who's killed both Ultimates several times, and killed E4S week 1, before there's any insinuation that I'm a casual stating this.

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What do you mean by sustainable:

• Do you refer to the always same iteration of the release cycle, and the fact that game is still running while using said release cycle?
• Do you refer to that only a fraction of people even bother with endgame activities and its sustainable this way, as even if all of them left the game would still be running?

This endgame doesn't really "work" for anyone seeking challenging content, or challenging content outside of Ex/savage:

• 3 lvl 80 dungeons, 3 trials up to lvl 80, Ex trials, 1 raid, Savage raid - that's it until the next major release; and if you're like me who rather has challenging group, but not raid content you can leave the minute you've done all 3 dungeons, as there is just nothing left
• There are only so many repetitions you're doing of the current endgame content until you either don't play your lvl 80 anymore and focus on other activities, or you unsub until the next major patch

Theme-park MMORPGs are like a buffet, as you should have food for your different customer groups/personas, but currently the "wants challenging content" group only has a tiny selection of food it can eat - and if I were the host of said buffet I'd make sure that even that particular group has enough variety to chose from.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

What do you mean by sustainable:

• Do you refer to the always same iteration of the release cycle, and the fact that game is still running while using said release cycle?
• Do you refer to that only a fraction of people even bother with endgame activities and its sustainable this way, as even if all of them left the game would still be running?

This endgame doesn't really "work" for anyone seeking challenging content, or challenging content outside of Ex/savage:

• 3 lvl 80 dungeons, 3 trials up to lvl 80, Ex trials, 1 raid, Savage raid - that's it until the next major release; and if you're like me who rather has challenging group, but not raid content you can leave the minute you've done all 3 dungeons, as there is just nothing left
• There are only so many repetitions you're doing of the current endgame content until you either don't play your lvl 80 anymore and focus on other activities, or you unsub until the next major patch

Theme-park MMORPGs are like a buffet, as you should have food for your different customer groups/personas, but currently the "wants challenging content" group only has a tiny selection of food it can eat - and if I were the host of said buffet I'd make sure that even that particular group has enough variety to chose from.

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I refer to the fact that despite being told for almost six years now that this endgame is stale and FFXIV needs to diversify or it will die...maybe I stopped believing that entirely by now.

It could stand to diversify. Incidentally how does the proposed addition of two extra Savage fights affect the difficulty you're after?

I'm not saying that the game is perfect; it could improve for sure. I also admit bias in liking the current Savage+ model for endgame, where BiS becomes a means to an end, that end being the hardest fights in the game.

I am saying that I'm numb to the rhetoric of "if this game doesn't change it's gonna die!" I've been there. I've thought that. But here we are still, six years on.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I already get suspicious when someone is labeling criticism as "moaning".

And you don't disappoint:[LIST][*]He is criticizing the clear lack of lvl 80 content, one distinct topic of the whole that if FF14, and in your mind that equates to "You don't enjoy FF14". Please describe your trail of though step by step until you can reach such a conclusion while adhering to logical coherence

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Hi, welcome to the thread, 120+ pages late. Not just the thread, the discussion that has been ongoing about this very topic since the beginning.

He is actually criticising, at present, the lack of challenging content, not the lack of content itself. The game's too easy for him, except Ultimate which of course neither of you have done. There's content but ultimately he finds it boring and unrewarding. The formula continues to grate him just as it did in HeavensWard. He's burned out.

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[*]How do you know "it's not enough for him and it will never be"? And how can you proclaim that "...others are content" when the forums/in-game chat is filled with criticism? Do you somehow speak for an unnamed majority?

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It's not enough and never will be simply because those who complain have been complaining for years.

I can speak for a majority when hard figures show only 5% of the active accounts complete Savage beyond the first few tiers.

I play the game, my wife plays the game, my friends play the game, I have a cousin who does too. I know for a fact others are quite happy as things stand. Small sample sizes yes, but note, subscriber count is only growing.

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[*]A sub-game like a MMORPGs depends on longevity, and here you are telling someone who wants to stay stubbed to play challenging content to "come back later when more of the same will be on the menu". Not the smartest advice, hm?

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You seem confused. It's Yoshi P, the director and producer of Final Fantasy XIV who suggests those who are bored should unsub between patches. This isn't a flaw, it's by design

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Just from that single post of yours you strike me as someone who can't face criticism and instead of falsifying the counter-arguments you resorts to hiding behind unnamed majorities "...others are content" or trying to discredit the bearer of said criticism, here labeling criticism as "moaning".

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Go be patronising somewhere else, thanks.

While I get a huge rush out of clearing a savage tier for the first time, it also really lowers my drive to play the game, even as someone who spends ample time doing random side content like hunts and fishing.

There have been MMOs, and timespans within those MMOs, where the endgame content was enough for 99% of the players in terms of challenge, content and/or casual busywork. WoW BC era before they invented the silly marks for free loot was a time when there was always aspirational content for the vast majority of players ,regardless of their level of hardcore-ness. There were guilds who were focused on the 10-man content (Karazhan and Zul Aman later), there was gear progression throughout the ENTIRE raid content, not invalidated every few weeks by releasing easy-to-acquire BIS stuff for everyone, and there were a lot of side activities.

FFXIVs designer team is so terribly afraid of a single bad player having to MAYBE learn how to play in order to clear content that MIGHT not be auto-complete on first ID, its ridiculous (and entertaining at the same time). I have never seen a dev team so worried about the lowest 2%, and it hurts the game a lot by making all content minus a handful of things utterly laughably easy, and breeds a playerbase that is unwilling, unable, incapable of learning and feels outraged (as can be seen in this thread) by the mere notion of something being beyond their immediate ability to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

FFXIVs designer team is so terribly afraid of a single bad player having to MAYBE learn how to play in order to clear content that MIGHT not be auto-complete on first ID, its ridiculous (and entertaining at the same time). I have never seen a dev team so worried about the lowest 2%, and it hurts the game a lot by making all content minus a handful of things utterly laughably easy, and breeds a playerbase that is unwilling, unable, incapable of learning and feels outraged (as can be seen in this thread) by the mere notion of something being beyond their immediate ability to achieve.

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Its all about getting subs on and off. They're not even trying to keep their veteran players. Even Yoshida's statement "You should go play other games time to time" is only proving they're not really after long-term subscribers. All they want is to keep even the most casuals attracted to the game, until where they quit and come back at a later time.
How many times did I read "I quit this game at first, but now I gave it a second chance, I love it!!". Its all about "Lets make things easier" so even the dumbest person can deal DPS. Im worried about Ninja, I liked the ninjutsu and mudra combinations... I am aware its clunky with GCD but still...

Preatorium and The Labyrinth of the Ancients everyday is the real endgame xD.

Savage Eden/Ex Trials are just optional content like Chocobo Racing or Mahjong designed to please a small percent of the total playerbase.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It's hard to swallow something like "this endgame is unsustainable" when...it is actually very sustainable. It's sustained for almost 6 years now. In fact the last time endgame was in trouble was when Savage was overturned and world first raiders took longer than a week to kill it.

I stand by my statement that this endgame works. I think it works much better now that Ultimate was conceived. I think the time between Ultimate and Savage is good, it gives even non-week-1 killers ample time to get BiS to tackle it.

Savage could be better. I don't think that means (nor am I saying that's your statement) it's in a bad place. I say this as someone who's killed both Ultimates several times, and killed E4S week 1, before there's any insinuation that I'm a casual stating this.

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This endgame works? Dude, the people that stay subbed are the casuals because this game is made for them, with raiders as an afterthought. I guarantee you that there are a ton of raiders just like me, who unsub from this game after they clear the Savage tiers. This game sustains because the casual players sustain it. They could also be receiving additional funds from raiders, but they don't even want to try to make them happy. Casuals don't want us to be happy either. They seem to think it is impossible to have a game that can be fun for casuals and raiders alike. And they get rabid at anyone who dares level a criticism at this game. Always implying that this game has no faults whatsoever, and that any criticism directed at this game must be a fault of the person and not the design. Because clearly there have not been MMOs in the past that had a diverse range of endgame activities compared to this. Ultimate, while a nice challenge, is another trial fight like all the Savages are. Where is the diversity regarding endgame?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

This endgame works? Dude, the people that stay subbed are the casuals because this game is made for them, with raiders as an afterthought. I guarantee you that there are a ton of raiders just like me, who unsub from this game after they clear the Savage tiers. This game sustains because the casual players sustain it. They could also be receiving additional funds from raiders, but they don't even want to try to make them happy. Casuals don't want us to be happy either. They seem to think it is impossible to have a game that can be fun for casuals and raiders alike. And they get rabid at anyone who dares level a criticism at this game.

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The clear ratio for savage content say otherwise. Its a problem of limited ressources that need to go where it matter the most. You can't ask for 5 percentil interest to get twice more budget allowed to be taken from content that is actualy working far better.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

The clear ratio for savage content say otherwise.

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I wonder how many endgame raiders they have driven off with the same stale formula of endgame over the last 6 years? Perhaps that also factors into this ratio? Probably also the general attitude of this community towards them as well. It's pretty clear you want to keep me and other raiders in a corner and want us to just be quiet and suffer or unsub while you get to enjoy your casual paradise. The general adversarial tone of this community towards raiders who dare to ask for more raiding content is pretty apparent.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I wonder how many endgame raiders they have driven off with the same stale formula of endgame over the last 6 years? Perhaps that also factors into this ratio? Probably also the general attitude of this community towards them as well. It's pretty clear you want to keep me and other raiders in a corner and want us to just be quiet and suffer or unsub while you get to enjoy your casual paradise.

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Maybe you are right, maybe its a casual paradise or whatever. But it work, number show that it work so why the hell do you want them to repair a formula that isn't broken. Maybe thats what he game in meant to be so maybe you should start considering to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Maybe you are right, maybe its a casual paradise or whatever. But it work, number show that it work so why the hell do you want them to repair a formula that isn't broken. Maybe thats what he game in meant to be so maybe you should start considering to deal with it.

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It works for you. Not for me. There is literally no MMORPG that works for me at the moment. Great for you, you don't feel the need to complain or try to make this game better because you were lucky enough to have a game that you enjoy. You don't need to complain, obviously. Maybe I should learn to deal with it? Wtf do you think I have been doing for the last 4 years? How much of this time do you think I've spent unsubbed? How long do you think I've waited for the MMORPG that scratches my itch? The one I've not had since FFXI, that was destroyed by the casual community and their entry into this space. Now you want to silence me after your community had destroyed the entire genre that I enjoyed.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

It works for you. Not for me. There is literally no MMORPG that works for me at the moment. Great for you, you don't feel the need to complain or try to make this game better because you were lucky enough to have a game that you enjoy. You don't need to complain, obviously. Maybe I should learn to deal with it? Wtf do you think I have been doing for the last 4 years? How much of this time do you think I've spent unsubbed? How long do you think I've waited for the MMORPG that scratches my itch? The one I've not had since FFXI, that was destroyed by the casual community and their entry into this space. Now you want to silence me after your community had destroyed the entire genre that I enjoyed.

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The issue here is this isn't even about 14 anymore, you have an issue with MMO's in general and despite there being others far closer to what you want (not exactly obviously) you've decided to make 14 your battleground.
You keep meshing two arguments into one, you want 14 to have more content you like but also claim MMO's have been "ruined" by "casuals" and keep using one to try and argue the other.
You also keep using the argument that the game would be "better" if it gives you what you want, yet the game has continued to grow, make more money and get bigger since its relaunch, everything you say is being proven false by the game, and all your evidence is "I bet there's!" "Imagine how many!" "I'm sure there's!" The clear rates for the hard content have always been low, this isn't something new, you're in the minority and you get content, it isn't enough for you, but it's as much as the devs feel they can provide without detracting from their content scheduled and they have added to the formula with Ultimate.

A lot of people from both sides agree this shouldn't be an us Vs them debate but you keep making it one with your attitude that "casuals" somehow "owe" you because they "ruined" the genre for you and so they should give up content for you.
The sad part is a lot of us wouldn't mind you getting more content but we also understand that it comes at a price and with the ratio of people who'd do it Vs those who'd do easier content is a tough sell and likely you'll never get much more than perhaps a BA like bit of content thrown in.

You've picked one of the worst MMO's for your battle yet are convinced those who are happy owe you because you're not happy and it's their fault.
MMO's changed because this is what the majority want, if you aren't happy with 14 after 6 years you either need to reevaluate how you enjoy the game or take Yoshi's advice and seek what you want else where and if no MMO is to your liking at all then I'm sorry and that sucks but that's very much a you problem. There are several and they all play differently, hell, Classic WoW is on the way, perhaps if you like MMO's of old that'll hopefully be to your liking.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

It works for you. Not for me. There is literally no MMORPG that works for me at the moment. Great for you, you don't feel the need to complain or try to make this game better because you were lucky enough to have a game that you enjoy. You don't need to complain, obviously. Maybe I should learn to deal with it? Wtf do you think I have been doing for the last 4 years? How much of this time do you think I've spent unsubbed? How long do you think I've waited for the MMORPG that scratches my itch? The one I've not had since FFXI, that was destroyed by the casual community and their entry into this space. Now you want to silence me after your community had destroyed the entire genre that I enjoyed.

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The elitism here is staggering.

You begrudge others enjoying FFXIV being the way it was designed and bemoan the lack of games that scratch your own itch in one of the most self-centered rants I've seen. Such hatred and vitriol towards people for liking stuff you don't is unhealthy.

Let's take a step back here, why don't you play FFXI? It's still alive after all. Retail still ticks along and there are private servers if you want the HNM/Sky/Limbus/Dynamis/ToAU stuff experience at 75. WoW Classic is coming in a few weeks, maybe that will scratch your itch?

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

The elitism here is staggering.

You begrudge others enjoying FFXIV being the way it was designed and bemoan the lack of games that scratch your own itch in one of the most self-centered rants I've seen. Such hatred and vitriol towards people for liking stuff you don't is unhealthy.

Let's take a step back here, why don't you play FFXI? It's still alive after all. Retail still ticks along and there are private servers if you want the HNM/Sky/Limbus/Dynamis/ToAU stuff experience at 75. WoW Classic is coming in a few weeks, maybe that will scratch your itch?

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Lol! This is the biggest case of projection I have ever seen. All raiders have been doing is asking for content, with no intention of hurting the casual community. Meanwhile, the casual community has been actively rallying to block raiders from getting any content while bragging about all the content that they have to do, EVEN THOUGH RAIDERS GETTING MORE CONTENT WILL BARELY IF AT ALL AFFECT THE CASUAL'S GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE. To fight so hard so that raiders can't get any more of a piece of their already tiny slice of pie while you horde 95% shows a clear hatred towards raiders.

I don't begrudge casuals for enjoying FFXIV the way they want to. All I'm saying is, let me voice my criticisms towards the dev team instead of telling me to just shut up and deal with it? The hypocrisy in this thread is staggering.

If you think I'm begrudging it's because you're all trying to silence me. Imagine if invaders take over your city, you try to live amicably with them, you try to talk in a civil manner with them, but all they say back to you is 'stfu and deal with it' or, 'get out.' Whom are the ones being elitist towards whom here? You guys aren't even indifferent towards raiders, you HATE them.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

The issue here is this isn't even about 14 anymore, you have an issue with MMO's in general and despite there being others far closer to what you want (not exactly obviously) you've decided to make 14 your battleground.
You keep meshing two arguments into one, you want 14 to have more content you like but also claim MMO's have been "ruined" by "casuals" and keep using one to try and argue the other.
You also keep using the argument that the game would be "better" if it gives you what you want, yet the game has continued to grow, make more money and get bigger since its relaunch, everything you say is being proven false by the game, and all your evidence is "I bet there's!" "Imagine how many!" "I'm sure there's!" The clear rates for the hard content have always been low, this isn't something new, you're in the minority and you get content, it isn't enough for you, but it's as much as the devs feel they can provide without detracting from their content scheduled and they have added to the formula with Ultimate.

A lot of people from both sides agree this shouldn't be an us Vs them debate but you keep making it one with your attitude that "casuals" somehow "owe" you because they "ruined" the genre for you and so they should give up content for you.
The sad part is a lot of us wouldn't mind you getting more content but we also understand that it comes at a price and with the ratio of people who'd do it Vs those who'd do easier content is a tough sell and likely you'll never get much more than perhaps a BA like bit of content thrown in.

You've picked one of the worst MMO's for your battle yet are convinced those who are happy owe you because you're not happy and it's their fault.
MMO's changed because this is what the majority want, if you aren't happy with 14 after 6 years you either need to reevaluate how you enjoy the game or take Yoshi's advice and seek what you want else where and if no MMO is to your liking at all then I'm sorry and that sucks but that's very much a you problem. There are several and they all play differently, hell, Classic WoW is on the way, perhaps if you like MMO's of old that'll hopefully be to your liking.

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Nah, if you read earlier in the thread I was trying to make suggestions, but the casual crowd came at me with swords out, giving me no choice but to defend myself from the onslaught. The best way to make someone hostile is to persecute and isolate them for having ideas, which the people in this thread have done splendidly. It's clear you do not want us to have a voice.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Lol! This is the biggest case of projection I have ever seen. All raiders have been doing is asking for content, with no intention of hurting the casual community.

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That's not what you've been doing at all.

"destroyed by the casual community"

" Now you want to silence me after your community had destroyed the entire genre that I enjoyed."

That's not asking for more content at all, that's attacking players and accusing them of random stuff they didn't even do.

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Meanwhile, the casual community has been actively rallying to block raiders from getting any content while bragging about all the content that they have to do,

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Nobody is trying to block anyone getting more content? There is no rallying at all.

You don't like the amount of content, or the difficulty of that which is available, despite not actually doing all the content (Ultimate). I'm not without sympathy, but maybe after 4+ years of complaining about the same thing, you'll realize the game isn't going to change for you?

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EVEN THOUGH RAIDERS GETTING MORE CONTENT WILL BARELY IF AT ALL AFFECT THE CASUAL'S GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE.

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Caps spam don't make you look unhinged at all.

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If you think I'm begrudging it's because you're all trying to silence me. Imagine if invaders take over your city, you try to live amicably with them, you try to talk in a civil manner with them, but all they say back to you is 'stfu and deal with it' or, 'get out.'

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People who like Final Fantasy XIV being Final Fantasy XIV accept invaders taking over their cities. Nice.

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Whom are the ones being elitist towards whom here? You guys aren't even indifferent towards raiders, you HATE them.

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Nobody hates "raiders". What even is a raider anyway? I run an endgame LS on FFXI, does that make me a raider? Get off your high horse and wise up.

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

That's not what you've been doing at all.

"destroyed by the casual community"

" Now you want to silence me after your community had destroyed the entire genre that I enjoyed."

That's not asking for more content at all, that's attacking players and accusing them of random stuff they didn't even do.



Nobody is trying to block anyone getting more content? There is no rallying at all.

You don't like the amount of content, or the difficulty of that which is available, despite not actually doing all the content (Ultimate). I'm not without sympathy, but maybe after 4+ years of complaining about the same thing, you'll realize the game isn't going to change for you?



Caps spam don't make you look unhinged at all.



People who like Final Fantasy XIV being Final Fantasy XIV accept invaders taking over their cities. Nice.




Nobody hates "raiders". What even is a raider anyway? I run an endgame LS on FFXI, does that make me a raider? Get off your high horse and wise up.

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It's clear you've not been reading this thread. I can't blame you, given the amount of pages within. If you had read the thread you would have seen all of this. Probably my first 30 posts or so was trying to ask the devs to make more content. I even made suggestions as to what they could implement. All this while I was being attacked continuously. Yeah, I got progressively more upset after so many pages of attacks directed at me. The caps is obviously frustration of having to repeat myself to people. The progressive, building emotions of having to deal with the same old arguments for like 80 pages now. There absolutely has been rallying from the people in this thread to block raiders from getting any more content. There was literally a post 1-2 pages ago telling me to 'stfu and deal with it,' rather than trying to offer suggestions for this game.

Also, me on a high horse? It's more like the opposite. You guys have relegated me to the ghettos and are telling me to accept my place. Yet despite all of this, you think I am the one who is elitist. Get it through your skulls, I don't think I'm better than any of you. I had stopped posting until someone dredged up the thread again to call me 'lucky' that I had cleared e1-e3s first week with pugs, and that it was not at all evidence of the difficulty of endgame content in this game having been turned down to unacceptable levels(minus Ultimate obviously).

I just can't understand it. You won't see me in threads like 'it's about time for pink bunny tail glamours', because frankly I don't care in the slightest about it, so you won't see me trying to block Yoshi-P and team from adding it to the game. If people wanted pink bunny tail glamours, more power to them. Add it, make them happy. Yet the fervor with which some people in this thread are trying to oppose having challenging endgame battle content added when a lot of the detractors don't even do these things, it's almost like they are threatened by people like me asking for such things. Why?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

It's clear you've not been reading this thread. I can't blame you, given the amount of pages within. If you had read the thread you would have seen all of this. Probably my first 30 posts or so was trying to ask the devs to make more content.

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Your first 30 posts, do you even read what you're typing? You're telling me you've been spamming this thread up, ad nauseam, north of 30 times over an issue you were complaining about at least 4 years ago? This really isn't healthy at all.

Taking a step back, it seems that your problem isn't that there isn't enough content, or even that there isn't enough challenging content, it's that there isn't enough content that you actually like. There's nothing wrong with wanting more content that you enjoy, but after so many years of so much complaining, perhaps the formula won't change, perhaps the game is the game, perhaps another game is what you want and need? And that's ok?

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All this while I was being attacked continuously.

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"destroyed by the casual community"

" your community had destroyed the entire genre that I enjoyed."

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Yet the fervor with which some people in this thread are trying to oppose having challenging endgame battle content added

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They added challenging endgame battle content and you didn't do it.

Another ultimate fight is coming in 5.1, going to do it this time or come on the forums and complain as if it doesn't exist?

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

Your first 30 posts, do you even read what you're typing? You're telling me you've been spamming this thread up, ad nauseam, north of 30 times over an issue you were complaining about at least 4 years ago? This really isn't healthy at all.

Taking a step back, it seems that your problem isn't that there isn't enough content, or even that there isn't enough challenging content, it's that there isn't enough content that you actually like. There's nothing wrong with wanting more content that you enjoy, but after so many years of so much complaining, perhaps the formula won't change, perhaps the game is the game, perhaps another game is what you want and need? And that's ok?



"destroyed by the casual community"

" your community had destroyed the entire genre that I enjoyed."



They added challenging endgame battle content and you didn't do it.

Another ultimate fight is coming in 5.1, going to do it this time or come on the forums and complain as if it doesn't exist?

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After that post from 4 years ago, I hadn't posted about this again until the expansion launch. But yeah, I got tired of the same old formula so I have been fighting to have more content released in this thread. Savage fights are now trials. The Ultimate is also a trial. I see you're falling back on the argument that I need to have done everything to want things added to this game. I actually do plan on doing Ultimate if they add it in 5.1 Even if I clear it and come back here to post though, I'm sure you'll still have something to say about it, won't you? Maybe then your excuse will be that I didn't level all my jobs to 80 or something? Maybe that I'm elitist for stating I cleared it? Yeah, how dare I want them to put some other type of endgame content into this game. I also love how you ignore the repeated attacks against me which eventually caused me to lash out to defend myself. You portray it as if nothing catalyzed me to start behaving this way, and I just decided to start saying such things for fun. I am not the one who started the hostility. Grade A cherry picking there.

There has been nothing fresh and fun in the endgame for who knows how long anymore. Ultimate was a nice ramp up in difficulty, but is ultimately the same exact type of endgame content. A single boss fight in a square or circular arena that operates much like Savage, just harder. You said there is nothing wrong with wanting more content that I enjoy, so I will continue to voice my desire for that content. Thank you.

[QUOTE=Zabuza;5135070]But yeah, I got tired of the same old formula so I have been fighting to have more content released in this thread.{/quote]

You're confused.

It seems to me, more content actually isn't good enough for you. You want different content, not more content.

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Savage fights are now trials.

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So see, despite all that arguing early on that "we just want a few more fights", apparently that isn't good enough and, if added, would be dismissed as "just trials". What you want is something requiring a considerable amount of dev time, which would detract from the overall experience in other areas whether you admit it or not.

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The Ultimate is also a trial.

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Which you haven't done.

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I see you're falling back on the argument that I need to have done everything to want things added to this game.

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If I complain I'd like fishing to be introduced into the game, it's only logical for someone to tell me it's already there.

You said the following
"Yet the fervor with which some people in this thread are trying to oppose having challenging endgame battle content added"

This indicates to me you might have missed the fact challenging endgame battle content already exists. It's called Ultimate. Less than 1% of players have cleared either of them, never mind both. You haven't cleared it either. I'll assume that's because you're too casual.

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I actually do plan on doing Ultimate if they add it in 5.1

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They've already announced Ultimate for this expansion, at least 2 but probably 3. But do continue acting as if it doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Ibkee

You're confused.

It seems to me, more content actually isn't good enough for you. You want different content, not more content.



So see, despite all that arguing early on that "we just want a few more fights", apparently that isn't good enough and, if added, would be dismissed as "just trials". What you want is something requiring a considerable amount of dev time, which would detract from the overall experience in other areas whether you admit it or not.



Which you haven't done.



If I complain I'd like fishing to be introduced into the game, it's only logical for someone to tell me it's already there.

You said the following
"Yet the fervor with which some people in this thread are trying to oppose having challenging endgame battle content added"

This indicates to me you might have missed the fact challenging endgame battle content already exists. It's called Ultimate. Less than 1% of players have cleared either of them, never mind both. You haven't cleared it either. I'll assume that's because you're too casual.



They've already announced Ultimate for this expansion, at least 2 but probably 3. But do continue acting as if it doesn't exist.

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So, basically someone has to clear absolutely everything before they're allowed to voice a desire to want more endgame content, in your eyes. Cool. From now on, people who have glamour ideas are no longer able to suggest them unless they have every single piece of gear in their inventory, every glamour set. People who want more hunts are no longer allowed to ask for them unless they have all the hunt mounts. People who want to suggest items for housing are no longer allowed to suggest these things unless they have every single type of furniture item. People who have ideas for mounts or minions are no longer allowed to want more mounts and minions unless they have collected every single type of mount or minion. People who want a job added into the game are no longer allowed to ask for it unless they have leveled every single job to 80. I'm guessing if we go by those criteria, noone will be allowed to suggest anything in this forum ever again. But keep applying those standards to only endgame content, please.

Just out of curiosity, what will your argument be if I clear the 5.1 Ultimate and still feel the same way? Guessing you will tell me, 'ya but now you need to go back and clear Ultimate Coil or UwU,' correct?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

So, basically someone has to clear absolutely everything before they're allowed to voice a desire to want more endgame content, in your eyes. Cool. From now on, people who have glamour ideas are no longer able to suggest them unless they have every single piece of gear in their inventory, every glamour set. People who want more hunts are no longer allowed to ask for them unless they have all the hunt mounts. People who want to suggest items for housing are no longer allowed to suggest these things unless they have every single type of furniture item. People who have ideas for mounts or minions are no longer allowed to want more mounts and minions unless they have collected every single type of mount or minion. People who want a job added into the game are no longer allowed to ask for it unless they have leveled every single job to 80. I'm guessing if we go by those criteria, noone will be allowed to suggest anything in this forum ever again. But keep applying those standards to only endgame content, please.

Just out of curiosity, what will your argument be if I clear the 5.1 Ultimate and still feel the same way? Guessing you will tell me, 'ya but now you need to go back and clear Ultimate Coil or UwU,' correct?

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You're quite literally arguing that you want more challenging endgame content but then don't do it when it arrives. What else is there supposed to be?