Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

It is true if you want to keep a constant 15% healing boost without using other skills that it would be best to wait for infuriate to be available so you could Inner beast then get 15% boost right bk in moments.

However in reality no fight is that cumbersome at all times to where you can't go from 1- 5 wrath in 20 seconds and be okay.

BUT LETS SAY THERE IS SUCH A FIGHT. Like you said, if you stack mantra & convalescence & Thrill of Battle after each Inner Beast possible you'll pretty much stay just around 15%

ex: start with 5 wrath (15%):mad:
Inner Beast 900 HP (0%) :(
2.5 sec recast expires [mid this time: Thrill of Battle 20% HP (for a base 8k HP that's like a 1.6k heal (cure III low crit))]
heavy swing (0%):(
2.5 sec recast expires
miam (3%)
2.5 sec recast expires
Storm's Eye (6%)
2.5 sec recast expires
heavy swing (6%)
2.5 sec recast expires
skull sunder (9%)
2.5 sec recast expires
Butcher's Block(12%)
2.5 sec recast expires
Heavy swing (12%)
2.5 sec recast expires [Thrill of Battle 20% HP expires TOTAL OF 20 SECONDS HAS PASSED]

( note: if you wanna keep your 10% slash resistance up for more dmg; which will equate to more absorbed by inner beast, bloodbath, & storm's Path. go bk to miam route)


Skull Sunder (15%) (5 Wrath):mad:
2.5 sec recast expires
Inner Beast 900 HP (0%):(
2.5 sec recast expires [mid this time: convalescence 20% boost for 20 sec]
heavy swing (20%)
2.5 sec recast expires
maim (23%)
2.5 sec recast expires
storm's eye (26%)
2.5 sec recast expires
heavy swing (26%)
2.5 sec recast expires
skull sunder (29%)
2.5 sec recast expires
Butcher's Block (32%)
2.5 sec recast expires
Heavy swing (32%)
2.5 sec recast expires
maim (35%) (5 Wrath):mad:
2.5 sec recast expires [Convalescence 20% boost expires TOTAL OF 45 SECONDS HAS PASSED]

Inner Beast 900 HP (0%):(
2.5 sec recast expires [mid this time: use Infuriate (5 wrath)]:mad:
Inner Beast 900 HP (0%):(
2.5 sec recast expires [mid this time: use mantra 5% boost for 15 sec]
Storm's Eye (8%) (YES IT CAN BE DONE... you get more than 5 secondS to complete a combo)
2.5 sec recast expires
heavy swing (8%)
2.5 sec recast expires
skull sunder (11%)
2.5 sec recast expires
Butcher's Block (14%)
2.5 sec recast expires
heavy swing (14%)
2.5 sec recast expires
maim (17%)
2.5 sec recast expires
Storm's Eye (15%) (5 Wrath) [Mantra 5% boost expires]:mad:
2.5 sec recast expires
Inner Beast 900 HP (0%):( --------------------------------------------------------> we are about at the 70 second mark
2.5 sec recast expires [now instead of Thrill, use berserk, then Second Wind in that order for MINIMIUM 600 HP]

and here on down replace the second half of your skills: Foresight instead of conval;Internal release + bloodbath instead of mantra--until you're right bk to Thrill of Battle.





the looooooooong pt is... you can get more than 900 HP every minute and still average 15% HP healing boost. And this was just a generic run through. if you add mega-strength every 5min you can turn that 900 HP Inner Beast into 20% max HP

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Originally Posted by javid

one shotted?? which boss you fight hit for more than 5k?? LET ALONE 8K HP vs a warrior??!

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Half the bosses in BC. Our FC (currently on turn 5) straight up refuses to take warrior tanks now and they all rerolled paladins. The fights are now 10x easier with 2 paladin tanks vs 1 paladin and 1 warrior. Warriors are terrible tanks at the moment and need to be looked at. Having more hp = wasting more mana for healers to restore that extra hp (that is draining at a faster rate).

Tanks are also not for damage. We dont care what you do for damage. Our tanks could do 1 damage a swing and we could give two shits. We have non shitty dps for damage. We want our tanks to survive "oh shit" moments....

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

EHP is a very different construct than Healing required to stay alive. For the purposes of overall durability it is more appropriate to approach it in dynamic terms, but in doing so it's also appropriate to consider other factors (i.e. block, parry, debuffs, etc.) as well.

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It's not an overall durability issue. It's a survivability issue. Evasion statistics are not meaningful here. They reduce the probability of severity, but unless you can stack them very high, their effect on the probability is too low to be relied upon and should be dismissed. It would be meaningful to take into consideration Bulwark's effect. As a general rule of thumb, unless your total evasion is somewhere in the vicinity of 45%, it doesn't have enough impact to be considered impactful for a full fight. For cooldown usage and for singular occurrences, 70% is a good mark. Typical numbers for typical fights, not universals.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Berserk is more than 20% increase in damage (from my testing)

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Berserk provides 50% increased damage for 20 seconds followed by 5 seconds of only auto-attack damage every 90 seconds. Split this up into auto-attack contribution and ability contribution.

Auto attack contribution gets 11.11% (50% for 20 seconds every 90 seconds). The ability contribution is substantially lower because you have 5 seconds of Pacification. As such, you get 20 seconds of 1.5x performance, 5 seconds of 0 performance, and 65 seconds of 1.0x performance, which totals out to 5.56% better than average. I was only doing the ability damage contribution (which means I need to go back and fix that math to account for auto-attacks).

1. Move the +15% healing to defiance. Buff to 20%.
2. Buff %HP of defiance allowing us to use striking/maiming acc.
3. Buff bloodbath % leech and give it higher uptime. (hell, it should almost be a part of defiance if we want to call ourselves self healing tank ffs)
4. Give Inner Beast a shield instead of a heal.
5. ????
6. Profit.

We would still have issue, our DPS would still be a joke when you compare it to the DPS of a PLD and its survivability, but with the right numbers, it would make our lives a lot more easier without being OP as fck. (again, with the right number to those buffs)

Oh and for christ's sake, change the bravura and get rid of this useless skill speed. To make use of that we would lose so much acc that we could miss everything in Coil. Give us some crit instead.
We're. Supposed. To deal. A bit. Of. Damage.

To the guy who says he's dealing 160 damage per second because, with his DL, he put 20 point in STR. Lol.
So I guess that with a full AF+1 (wich should take like a month and a half now ?) WAR will have so much strength (and vit !) that we will outdps pretty much anyone in the game while having a shitload of hp. Fear the mighty warriors.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

And second, you do have to normalize for sword oath. Sword oath adds a 50 potency hit on auto attack. Auto attacks happen more often than once every 2.5 seconds for a PLD. With Curtana (one of their slowest weapons) it's once every 2.32 seconds, which puts sword oath at ~54 potency every 2.5 seconds. You've normalized the auto attack contribution to 2.5 seconds, but you didn't normalize sword oath.

Auto Attack potency is (Delay / 3)*100. Sword oath will add 50 to that number, but that number will not always be 83.333 for a PLD.

Sword oath absolutely provides more for a fast weapon than a slow weapon.

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Oh, duh. The wording on Sword Oath is weird. It does not increase the potency of the attack. It adds a second hit at 50 potency that occurs when the auto attacks occur. It's like Enfire or abilities like that. You'll actually see it pop up on screen as two separate numbers. I'd been wondering why it was doing that.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Sword oath absolutely provides more for a fast weapon than a slow weapon.

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I'm operating on the assumption that the 50 potency is applied to the weapon damage before it's normalized for delay. You're operating under the assumption that the 50 potency is applied to the weapon damage after it's normalized for delay, which is where we're coming to an impasse. I'd be curious to see if anyone has done any log analysis to actually suss out which actually occurs.

Auto-attacks deal their listed physical damage every 3 seconds. Auto-attack damage is simply the listed weapon damage divided by delay. A 50% increase to that damage would apply the same benefits to slow weapons as well as fast ones. I opt into thinking this is the way they do it because that's the way that makes sense to me, else fast weapons are explicitly better than slow ones, which doesn't sit right with me considering it's not like you have much choice (plus, most MMOs have done away with the weapon speed effect construct in favor of normalization of weapon speed across bonuses).

If you apply the 50 potency to the attacks after they are normalized for delay, then, yet, you're going to get differentiated contributions. A weapon with twice the attack speed is going to end up dealing 33% more damage ((.5 + .5) x (1 / .5) = 2; (1 + .5) x (1 / 1) = 1.5; 2/1.5 = .33).

Of course, until you get to massively disparate attack speeds, the differences are remarkably small: The difference between a 2.1 and 2.2 weapon would be 4.7% (((2.1/2.2) + .5) x (1 / (2.1/2.2)) = 1.047). Auto-attack damage makes up roughly 33% of total DPS, so the difference will be all of 1.6%.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Berserk provides 50% increased damage for 20 seconds followed by 5 seconds of only auto-attack damage every 90 seconds. Split this up into auto-attack contribution and ability contribution.

Auto attack contribution gets 11.11% (50% for 20 seconds every 90 seconds). The ability contribution is substantially lower because you have 5 seconds of Pacification. As such, you get 20 seconds of 1.5x performance, 5 seconds of 0 performance, and 65 seconds of 1.0x performance, which totals out to 5.56% better than average. I was only doing the ability damage contribution (which means I need to go back and fix that math to account for auto-attacks).

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This is not true. Berserk increases your attack power by 50%, not your damage. The end result is that the damage increases is actually lower than 50%.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I'm operating on the assumption that the 50 potency is applied to the weapon damage before it's normalized for delay. You're operating under the assumption that the 50 potency is applied to the weapon damage after it's normalized for delay, which is where we're coming to an impasse. I'd be curious to see if anyone has done any log analysis to actually suss out which actually occurs.

Auto-attacks deal their listed physical damage every 3 seconds. Auto-attack damage is simply the listed weapon damage divided by delay. A 50% increase to that damage would apply the same benefits to slow weapons as well as fast ones. I opt into thinking this is the way they do it because that's the way that makes sense to me, else fast weapons are explicitly better than slow ones, which doesn't sit right with me considering it's not like you have much choice (plus, most MMOs have done away with the weapon speed effect construct in favor of normalization of weapon speed across bonuses).

If you apply the 50 potency to the attacks after they are normalized for delay, then, yet, you're going to get differentiated contributions. A weapon with twice the attack speed is going to end up dealing 33% more damage ((.5 + .5) x (1 / .5) = 2; (1 + .5) x (1 / 1) = 1.5; 2/1.5 = .33).

Of course, until you get to massively disparate attack speeds, the differences are remarkably small: The difference between a 2.1 and 2.2 weapon would be 4.7% (((2.1/2.2) + .5) x (1 / (2.1/2.2)) = 1.047). Auto-attack damage makes up roughly 33% of total DPS, so the difference will be all of 1.6%.

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There is so much confused stuff in this. Auto attack damage is "Raw" damage Times Delay Divided by 3.

The way Sword Oath works is it adds a 50 potency attack every time you hit an enemy. It doesn't deal 50% of your auto attack damage every time you hit an enemy. It effectively increases auto attack potency by 50.

With Curtana (+1), for exampl, Auto Attack potency is (2.32 / 3) * 100 = 77.333 potency. For Allagan Blade it's (2.16 / 3) *100 = 72 potency.

You can confirm this is how you get auto attack potency by going in game. Track your auto attack damage and your Fast Blade (or Heavy Swing) damage. Divide the Fast Blade dmg by 1.5 (it's 150 potency). This will be your "raw" damage. Now, multiply this number by whatever your auto attack potency is (i.e. Delay / 3). This will return the damage you are dealing on auto attacks.

As noted above, Allagan blade is 72 Potency attack at 2.16 intervals. Adding 50 to that means 122 Potency every 2.16 seconds.
For Curtana +1, it's 77 potency every 2.32. Adding 50 to that makes effective auto attack potency 127.33 every 2.32 seconds.

Now normalizing these to 2.5 seconds puts Allagan blade at 141 potency every 2.5 seconds, and Curtana +1 at 137.

It's a small difference, (around 3%) but it's enough to be significant. With Curtana, Sword Oath is 10% more effective than if you estimate it at 50 potency per 2.5 seconds, and with Alagan Blade (or Garuda's) it's going to be bigger than that.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

So what's the conversion? I find it kind of annoying that everything that increases WAR attributes (Berserk, Foresight) increases a baseline attribute rather than an end value whereas everything a PAL gets apparently increases end values. It's not only annoying as a WAR but it's annoying to theorycraft since there isn't a standard mechanism.

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It has to do with the damage formula. I'm not 100% convinced by Valks formulas. But you can try it out with different weapons. As the Ratio of Weapon Damage : Attack Power increases, the damage bonus from Berserk decreases. With a weathered axe it will be 50% or more bonus damage. With a Relic weapon it will probably be less than 40 (it was 41ish when I tested it with an ilvl 49 weapon).

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

This is not true. Berserk increases your attack power by 50%, not your damage. The end result is that the damage increases is actually lower than 50%.

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So what's the conversion? I find it kind of annoying that everything that increases WAR attributes (Berserk, Foresight) increases a baseline attribute rather than an end value whereas everything a PAL gets apparently increases end values. It's not only annoying as a WAR but it's annoying to theorycraft since there isn't a standard mechanism.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

There is so much confused stuff in this.

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PAL is my alt tank job and I don't spend much time in Sword Oath when I was playing it so I've got no problem admitting that I got it wrong.

Even so, the value of Sword Oath is diluted by the percentage of total damage made up by auto-attacks. A 3% disparity in auto-attack damage is going to generate a 1% disparity in total end DPS. Considering comparative DPS at the moment, where 200 is "good", you're talking about a loss of 2 DPS total, which is going to be less than the difference between realistic play and optimal play. Until you get to *massive* disparities in auto-attack speed, the difference is so minute that it doesn't matter.

Honestly since they share gear (mostly) I've just broken down and am working towards finishing getting my Paladin to 50. Until warriors get some fixes, I'd much rather play the more reliable and better able to clear content tank.

FULL VIT STACK WITH VIT GEAR


So, I started out with 30 VIT stat Allocation and used your typical VIT and Parry tanking gear. I didn't want to prejudice the Parse at all by playing in a different play style than my STR set up so I tried to maximize my Self heals and Damage the best I could. I had an HP pool of 6861 with Defiance.

This is what I came up with for a 31 minute predictably-smelly DF run. No we didn't win.

I did my best with it. My self heals were pretty low: 876 for a low inner beast heal and 1878 for a high. My DPS? 71.88 with one parser and 76.29 with another... and that was with me actually trying to you know... DPS. That's really low. And it shows. I mean 876 for an Inner Beast is basically 0.1 of my total HP pool. Most of the time it was healing around 1100 or 1200 though but it did well with Crits that run. Inner Beast hit for an AVG of 415.30 or 1245.9 healed.

Another issue was hate. The Offtank PLD made a FLASH at the add to catch Chirada. Unfortunately, Garuda caught that too and off she went to wipe the party. She was literally gone in a flash. So my hate was pretty tenuous too. But I guess that's to be expected when my Enmity is through damage and I'm doing so little damage.

The healer was handling pretty much 100% of the weight. I healed about 4 percent of me and the healer did about 96 percent of everything... so let's try to change that.

STR 20 VIT 10

I switch back to STR 20 / VIT 10. Now I'm working with an HP pool of 6498 with Defiance... not that big of a difference. Let's make it bigger with a Peltast Ring instead of an HQ Amber ring and my HQ Darksteel melded Heavy Flanchard instead of a Darklight Heavy Flanchard. HP is now 6360. Now let's reset my Parsers and Try again. It was another DF 30 minute Lose Fest with some good results on the parser.

98.44 DPS for one and 96.31 with another this time. My highest Inner Beast healed for 2910 and my lowest Beast for 1035 On average it healed 1385.34. My healing climbed to 9.84 of healing done to myself, though the main healer was a bit spammy.

25 to 27 more DPS is nothing to Sniff at. 5 percent more healing isn't either.

So I tanked Hydra last night and made the healers QQ so hard, I'm in AK+DL gear, 2 healer spams can't keep me up. So....I had to spin the boss round and round to force tail swipes so I dont take damage. Cool story....time to level paladin.

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Originally Posted by Kommunist

So I tanked Hydra last night and made the healers QQ so hard, I'm in AK+DL gear, 2 healer spams can't keep me up. So....I had to spin the boss round and round to force tail swipes so I dont take damage. Cool story....time to level paladin.

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Honest question; were you the only tank, and did you catch the debuffs (which are a pain in the ass to avoid with the inherent lag this game has).

Hydra doesn't hurt if you mitigate those two mechanics. I appreciate i'm a Paladin at the moment, and i'm all in favour of seeing Warriors buffed, but you really shouldn't be having trouble with Hydra... ?

As for Warrior fixes, I'd be happy to see a trait double their parry chance. That's mitigation, right there; pretty much 20% reduction every time you parry, and you'd parry more than a PLD. Paladins still get flexibility to choose their blocking strategy, and the passive 20% damage reduction. Also, GLD's Rampart should be crossed to Mara/Warr. You need a damage smoothing ability. I don't get the source point of this thread though; Wars don't need more pew pew. Threat is fine, damage is fine. Wars need a little love to stay alive.

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Originally Posted by Kommunist

So I tanked Hydra last night and made the healers QQ so hard, I'm in AK+DL gear, 2 healer spams can't keep me up. So....I had to spin the boss round and round to force tail swipes so I dont take damage. Cool story....time to level paladin.

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I think you're suppose to have two tanks to split that whatever attack the Hydra does... One tank isn't really the way to go in my opinion cause.. even if you SPIN that thing there is still a good chance you'll get hit with that 3 head smacker move and dye.

Parry won't do anything for Mitigation in the real stuff.

If you want to help WARs get to coil then they need to have Sentinel or something so that they can go easy mode like PLD and not have to rely so much on doing damage and self heals.

But it just goes against the way the class is supposed to be played though. You're supposed to mitigate damage by healing yourself and killing the mob faster. So far that I've seen in Coil, damage goes up the longer the thing is alive.

I have full faith that WAR can tank and efficiently kill just about anything in the hands of a player who understands it's strengths and weaknesses and in a party that understands how their own classes can mitigate damage for the tank and how to maximize their own DPS.

There will be changes to WAR and maybe we'll get Rampart or Sentinel or something. But in the end that one fix isn't suddenly going to make WAR easy mode. You will have to learn to max damage and you will have to learn to max Self heal.

3 head smacker + auto = dead.
so,
How does 2 tanks split damage?
Does paladin tank fine by just standing there?
It is the first time i get annoyed with a job(class), the group were bunch of friends and they QQ'ing at my job (not me) makes me sad...

P.S Spinning boss is very easy kill for warriors out there btw (solo-tank), It just annoyed the crap out of me to have to resort to that type of strategy.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Parry won't do anything for Mitigation in the real stuff.

If you want to help WARs get to coil then they need to have Sentinel or something so that they can go easy mode like PLD and not have to rely so much on doing damage and self heals.

But it just goes against the way the class is supposed to be played though. You're supposed to mitigate damage by healing yourself and killing the mob faster. So far that I've seen in Coil, damage goes up the longer the thing is alive.

I have full faith that WAR can tank and efficiently kill just about anything in the hands of a player who understands it's strengths and weaknesses and in a party that understands how their own classes can mitigate damage for the tank and how to maximize their own DPS.

I'll just wait for you guys to just catch up to me. There will be changes to WAR and maybe we'll get Rampart or Sentinel or something. But in the end that one fix isn't suddenly going to make WAR easy mode. You will have to learn to max damage and you will have to learn to max Self heal.

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With respect, you can't have sentinel. You need something uniquely Warrior. What if a trait provided an absorb shield when you overheal yourself for the amount you healed. Sure, it's RNG, but so is blocking. Or a defensive cooldown that restored your HP to 70% if an attack kills you in the next 5 seconds. Or... etc etc. Just clamouring for one ability from PLD isn't going to kill Warriors. Surely these things fit in with the playstyle, and give you tools. Just saying "Gief sentinel" doesn't work. Rampart is small enough to smooth out damage if you need it, it would be cool if that was cross-class. Parry is a mechanic that gives you block-like mechanics, so it would fit the Warrior flavour to parry a little more.

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Originally Posted by Kommunist

3 head smacker + auto = dead.
so,
How does 2 tanks split damage?
Does paladin tank fine by just standing there?
It is the first time i get annoyed with a job(class), the group were bunch of friends and they QQ'ing at my job (not me) makes me sad...

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It's a shared damage move called Triumverate. You stand together at the front of Hydra and you both take it together. Kinda like how 1000 needles is shared between party members. If there's 4 members that get hit by 1000 needles they will take 250 each.

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Originally Posted by Amayasu

With respect, you can't have sentinel. You need something uniquely Warrior. What if a trait provided an absorb shield when you overheal yourself for the amount you healed. Sure, it's RNG, but so is blocking. Or a defensive cooldown that restored your HP to 70% if an attack kills you in the next 5 seconds. Or... etc etc. Just clamouring for one ability from PLD isn't going to kill Warriors. Surely these things fit in with the playstyle, and give you tools. Just saying "Gief sentinel" doesn't work. Rampart is small enough to smooth out damage if you need it, it would be cool if that was cross-class. Parry is a mechanic that gives you block-like mechanics, so it would fit the Warrior flavour to parry a little more.

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I have Awareness... why not Sentinel?

Do you even cross class? I want my Foresight back. The one with the big Axe on the icon that PLD can use.

I swear I get into these discussions and I wonder if we're talking about the same game.

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Originally Posted by Kommunist

3 head smacker + auto = dead.
so,
How does 2 tanks split damage?
Does paladin tank fine by just standing there?
It is the first time i get annoyed with a job(class), the group were bunch of friends and they QQ'ing at my job (not me) makes me sad...

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You're doing it wrong.

It's not your class.

The ability that is killing you spreads it's damage amongst the targets it hits. One target; 5k. Two targets; 2.5k each. etc etc. The point of the fight is to use two tanks, who move and work together, to mitigate the damage.

Complaining on the forums that your class is broken while ignoring the fundamental mechanics of the fight you're complaining about is not helping your class.

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Originally Posted by Amayasu

You're doing it wrong.

It's not your class.

The ability that is killing you spreads it's damage amongst the targets it hits. One target; 5k. Two targets; 2.5k each. etc etc. The point of the fight is to use two tanks, who move and work together, to mitigate the damage.

Complaining on the forums that your class is broken while ignoring the fundamental mechanics of the fight you're complaining about is not helping your class.

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I'm not really complaining, and didn't know you were meant to split the damage. Notwithstanding this, I was simply throwing it out there whether paladin solo tank it fine.

Anyways, WAR is cool, its fun. But the difference atm is enough for me to switch to a paladin. What I mean by this is, my friends currently prefer a fresh paladin tank over me! True story.

Now, they can do w/e they want with WAR, I can always have fun on it when I over gear content.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I have Awareness... why not Sentinel?

Do you even cross class?

I swear I get into these discussions and I wonder if we're talking about the same game.

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There's no talking to you, is there?

I'm in favour of Warrior buffs. I'm against expanding the cross-class toolset to include massively powerful abilities - these are what work to make classes unique. There are many options for mechanics and abilities that would massively compliment the Warrior's core mechanics while feeling unique. You've ignored them in favour of reiterating that Sentinel is cool.

Would having Sentinel make all of your problems disappear?

This is what happened in and ruined class difficulty in WoW. People expect to mash buttons and not strategically use their abilities then cry when something goes wrong or someone has an ability that they don't. Stop whining. Square Enix should know better than giving in to the cry babies and making everything noob worthy.:p

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Originally Posted by Kommunist

Notwithstanding this, I was simply throwing it out there whether paladin solo tank it fine.

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I don't think so, I've tanked it a few times now as a Paladin, and when we messed up tank movement i'd eat the full hit and take a huge amount of damage. Ultimately it's a mechanic meant to force multiple tanks.

Try again with an off tank and you'll be fine chap.

As an aside, i'm also levelling my Marauder for the Warrior job. I know Paladins are in a better place at the moment, i'd like to see Warriors buffed, but it looks fun and it's still a very young game; things can and will change.

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Originally Posted by Zarkhov

This is what happened in and ruined class difficulty in WoW. People expect to mash buttons and not strategically use their abilities then cry when something goes wrong or someone has an ability that they don't. Stop whining. Square Enix should know better than giving in to the cry babies and making everything noob worthy.:p

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Paladin....

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Originally Posted by Amayasu

I don't think so, I've tanked it a few times now as a Paladin, and when we messed up tank movement i'd eat the full hit and take a huge amount of damage. Ultimately it's a mechanic meant to force multiple tanks.

Try again with an off tank and you'll be fine chap.

As an aside, i'm also levelling my Marauder for the Warrior job. I know Paladins are in a better place at the moment, i'd like to see Warriors buffed, but it looks fun and it's still a very young game; things can and will change.

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WAR are great fun, hence the point of my original post, dont fix mitigation, increase our damage (how we are meant to be designed, or I thought). And one day, there will be a place for WARs, when that damage matters. Making them the same mitigation as paladin is no fun for me, class switching in this game is relatively easy, and if you havn't bought AF2 you have all your gear if you level a paladin and really havn't lost that much.

But seem like people just want WARs tanky like a pal =/

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Originally Posted by Zarkhov

This is what happened in and ruined class difficulty in WoW. People expect to mash buttons and not strategically use their abilities then cry when something goes wrong or someone has an ability that they don't. Stop whining. Square Enix should know better than giving in to the cry babies and making everything noob worthy.:p

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Says the guy who plays a Paladin

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Originally Posted by Kommunist

WAR are great fun, hence the point of my original post, dont fix mitigation, increase our damage (how we are meant to be designed, or I thought). And one day, there will be a place for WARs, when that damage matters. Making them the same mitigation as paladin is no fun for me, class switching in this game is relatively easy, and if you havn't bought AF2 you have all your gear if you level a paladin and really havn't lost that much.

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I'll say it again. No one wants you for your damage. My FC (turn 5) refuses to take warriors currently. If we want damage, we'll take dps classes. We take tanks to soak up damage. Warriors are mana vacuums compared to paladins. No decent FC is their right mind will take a warrior to BC period as paladins are superior in every aspect for every boss fight.

Warriors need more "oh shit" buttons and better ways to reduce the amount of mana they suck up. Simple as that

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Originally Posted by Zarkhov

This is what happened in and ruined class difficulty in WoW. People expect to mash buttons and not strategically use their abilities then cry when something goes wrong or someone has an ability that they don't. Stop whining. Square Enix should know better than giving in to the cry babies and making everything noob worthy.:p

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There's already a faceroll tanking class: it's the PLD. But when WARs want to be viable, it's whining? It's still gonna be harder.

As it stands I see a lot of ignorance but that's not the point. Warrior got screwed over hard, almost no damage mitigation, at best they -can- heal themselves somewhat, oh also a war with str/dex gear can actually pump out some decent dmg even with defiance, but even them it's pretty annoying to see a war doing their best putting out a full rotation and then seeing dps or other healers talk them down like they're inferior. also
AF2/coils have relatively the same stats except coils gear -can- be easier to obtain, allagan weapons are 1:1 on relic +1 i for one would like to see warrior marked as hybrid (able to fill both roles) or given more stuns or given better damage mitigation especially since pld gets block + parry war? they get parry and tons of hp tons of hp only helps so much though

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Originally Posted by Zanther

I'll say it again. No one wants you for your damage. My FC (turn 5) refuses to take warriors currently. If we want damage, we'll take dps classes. We take tanks to soak up damage. Warriors are mana vacuums compared to paladins. No decent FC is their right mind will take a warrior to BC period as paladins are superior in every aspect for every boss fight.

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Yes, that will always happen with top tiered guilds/FC/raiders. There will always be gap between classes, and beating challenging content people will resort to any advantage such as using 2 pal like you said.
Again, my point is, homogenizing WARs to have similar mitigation as pal is not fun. If you want to have that advantage, just have access to pal tank.
Because currently, we don't even provide what we are designed to provide (extra damage).

What they also need is a perma self buff that increases healing done to them that isnt based off wrath stacks.

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Originally Posted by Zanther

I'll say it again. No one wants you for your damage. My FC (turn 5) refuses to take warriors currently. If we want damage, we'll take dps classes. We take tanks to soak up damage. Warriors are mana vacuums compared to paladins. No decent FC is their right mind will take a warrior to BC period as paladins are superior in every aspect for every boss fight.

Warriors need more "oh shit" buttons and better ways to reduce the amount of mana they suck up. Simple as that

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there's plenty of paladin's that are more of a mana vacuum than many wars, and many many wannabe healers who don't know how to manage their mp.

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Originally Posted by Kommunist

Yes, that will always happen with top tiered guilds/FC/raiders. There will always be gap between classes, and beating challenging content people will resort to any advantage such as using 2 pal like you said.
Again, my point is, homogenizing WARs to have similar mitigation as pal is not fun. If you want to have that advantage, just have access to pal tank.
Because currently, we don't even provide what we are designed to provide (extra damage).

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I'll say it for a 3rd time. No one is going to take you because you have extra damage. You are a tank class. You will be picked based off of how much damage you take and mana required to keep you alive, not how much extra damage you do. This is why people take paladins, they survive "oh shit" bursts with way less effort. Is this hard to understand?

Warriors need:

More def cooldowns
Perma buff that increases healing done not based off of wrath
increased self heal amount