Alpha First Look: Video 7 – Levequests and Party Combat

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Originally Posted by vax

I preffer slow combat, i find it more tactic, like the way using haste on gear to speed the auto attack on XI or the stun rotation, didn't want to bring XI but it's just an example. I'm not saying let's bring the XI combat here, but XIV 1.0 was fast enough, faster than 1.0 it's too much, at least for me.

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I like slower combat for this reason too. It being a FF game, and ways haste gear will benefit my characters growth as a DD. Seeing it fast like this makes me think haste gear won't be in. And I don't want that.

I'm not seeing where at all this is fast.

First let me add an important point here: This video does some amazing camerawork to make it seem like things are far busier than they truly are, notice how the camera is close to the character's feet and aiming upwards, probalby the intent was in order to fully show the monsters but do you know what that causes?
The camera being this close to the character makes so that everything he does takes up a LOT of screen, even if that is not relatively what it would take when seen from outside and it's one of the reasons I wanna strangle whoever had the idea of filming it like this :(

I want you guys to completely disregard the graphics part and re-watch it looking only at the UIl, which is the part the player directly interacts with. The guy has time to decide his next action, obviously not the all the time in the world but there is time, three seconds in fact which is what the global cooldown is. There is movement, twice the character moves to the back or side of the monster (although right after there is a scene transition to a different character).

So no, this combat is not as 'spammy' (someone please define for me what that is, i'm making a wild guess but don't wanna make a bad guess) or even as fast as it SEEMS to be. Surely enough, the animations make the screen very busy, that is true, specially with eight sources of animations to close together and the camera nearly violating the character, but in no way that speeds up the fight, what it does do is give you something to focus your attention on while you wait on your cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Req

No damage algorithm changes and claiming system changes are going to fix this shitty battle system. The old one only needed animation lock removed to be perfect. My fingers hurt just watching this mindless spamfest.

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I'm glad you wasted all your time getting every class in the game capped at level 50, then.

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Originally Posted by Rustyhagun

I like slower combat for this reason too. It being a FF game, and ways haste gear will benefit my characters growth as a DD. Seeing it fast like this makes me think haste gear won't be in. And I don't want that.

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Originally Posted by Vax

I preffer slow combat, i find it more tactic, like the way using haste on gear to speed the auto attack on XI or the stun rotation

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I don't understand how either of you came to the conclusion that slow combat is better because stacking haste gear (which ironically speeds the battle up) is somehow more "tactical" or fun.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I'm glad you wasted all your time getting every class in the game capped at level 50, then.

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Me too.... Atleast I didn't go for any luminary tools :(

SE please tone down the mob twiching animation. It ruins the feel of the whole battle. Make this into a probabilistic trigger like: animate only on 10% of the hits. This is computed on the client so low impact.

I prefer slower more tactical group-oriented combat as well, but probably bc FFXI was my first love.

That said, I hope there is a little more interaction/movement involved in battles. Standing in one spot is no fun.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I prefer slower more tactical group-oriented combat as well, but probably bc FFXI was my first love.

That said, I hope there is a little more interaction/movement involved in battles. Standing in one spot is no fun.

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Try to keep in mind that, for WHATEVER reason, SE made a group combat video with only 3 available jobs in alpha. 2 of those jobs require you to stand still when fighting.

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

I don't understand how either of you came to the conclusion that slow combat is better because stacking haste gear (which ironically speeds the battle up) is somehow more "tactical" or fun.

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It's not only about stacking haste gear and that makes the combat more tactical or fun. On a lot of old FF, it's the spell haste, i don't see a spell like this working on this FF because the attack rate w/o it it's very fast, talking on auto attack and the global cooldown of 3 sec.

It was only one example that i don't see an use with this fast combat style. Maybe the problem it isn't the speed of the fight, is getting that speed without gear, magic or abilities on.

Is 124323564 less a spam with 10 sec waits between the skills than 3 sec waits?
Slow battle can be a spamfest, too. In the old FF games against standard mobs I use most time only standard attack.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Try to keep in mind that, for WHATEVER reason, SE made a group combat video with only 3 available jobs in alpha. 2 of those jobs require you to stand still when fighting.

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Totally. I think they were a bit premature in releasing this. We've already seen how the combat UI works. They should have waited until more classes were available to show off partying.

The video should have been about levequests and that's it.

Or nothing at all, really. Something like this could have easily been delivered to players in the form of a dev post on the forums. I appreciate that they're trying to provide more updates, and use different mediums for providing those updates. But I'd rather play the game and find out how these systems work myself than watch a video about them.

People have not even tried it, and automatically don't like it... for the love of God, wait until you try it before bashing it. Wait till beta, end of Jan/start of Feb 2013 when all the component's are in place then speak your mind...

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

People have not even tried it, and automatically don't like it... for the love of God, wait until you try it before bashing it. Wait till beta, end of Jan/start of Feb 2013 when all the component's are in place then speak your mind...

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SE shown a video, people can like or dislike. It's the only thng that i could take to give an opinion, but of course when i can play the game i could change what i said before.

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I preffer slow combat, i find it more tactic,

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Speed of combat has no relevance to tactics. Combat can be fast and have tactics to it, and combat can be slow and not have tactics. The two have no direct correlation.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

i agree with this to some extent, but if the battles shown took twice as long and half as many skills were used, people wouldn't be calling it spammy. That being said, the people who say things like "looks like all you do is 1111231122123111121141113112" is what annoys me, because it's oversimplifying something to make it sound as if it's mindless/unstrategic when in all actuality, it may not be, it just looks like it because it's fast.

Fast combat doesn't mean it's mindless, nor does slow combat imply more strategy is involved.

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These are probably the same people who like DCUO, SWTOR, STO etc that use 111111111231111116722421111546 battle as well, even WoW has a similar action bar system, so um yeah it's a complete fail of a system that will never succeed and all games that use it will fail, even the ones that have 10 million+ subscribers.

Now let's think of other things that some may see as a spamfest...

Final Fantasy 1 through 13-2 Attack, Attack, Attack Guard, Attack, Attack, Attack Cure, Jump, Kick Attack, Guard, Attack, Attack, Guard, Attack, Attack, Attack.

FPS Look through sight, fire fire fire fire fire fire fire fire move repeat.

Racing games, hold throttle........... brake turn throttle brake turn throttle brake turn.

Anyone see where I am going with this? All games in their own way are a spamfest.

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Originally Posted by Linkurrra

Looks awesome!

I'm not sure I like the Levequest mobs just spawning right in front of you and attacking automatically. Makes it hard to pace yourself and heal up if they constantly spawn and aggro you immeadiately. However I do like how it's completely streamlined. All the running around is pretty much gone! It's just run out to the Leve location and kill, warp to Leve NPC and pickup reward!

I do admit the animations looked a little jerky, but it was nice to see the mob reacting to all the hits it was taking! I suppose it needs to be toned down just a tad. I was looking like the mob was having a seizure. :P However, if you was getting whacked from all sides like that you would probably look like that too!

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because he initiate the quest INSIDE the leve area? :)
Yes it's fine mob react, except it's an IRON giant, well i dunno if it's a golem, or living thing really, but i assume golem, so i dont see how it would react :) and seasoned fighters dont flinch, cause that would get you killed.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

It didn't look like mindless ws spam every 3 seconds, though. Heck, the ARC doing that leve near the beginning barely landed a couple of autoattacks between all of that ws spam.

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Uhm, i think 3-4sec cd on skills isnt really *spam* and it gives PS3 players plenty of time to navigate skill bar and pick next skill. so i dunno how it's to fast paced...
Then your TP runs out, and you can only AA anyways. Why would you wanna AA more anyways? AA is weak.
There's nothing that forces you to use WS either, you're free to spend a minute to AA mobs to death instead if you prefer.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Is it just me, or being level 20 killing a lvl 20 mob seem FFXI hard to kill?( maybe even harder) Unless it's a Quest of sorts :O.

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Looking at map, the lv 20 mobs are NM (Notorious Monsters) they are harder to kill than normal mobs.

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Originally Posted by Nayto

Aww, so leves are just a 'rent a grinding spot' kinda thing now? :\ I liked the skirmishness that 1.0 had. Then again that was only 'one' levequest but hopefully they have one where it's not just a hunting ground 'VR room' kinda thing.

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Unlike 1.0? it was kinda rent a grind area too...

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Originally Posted by vax

I preffer slow combat, i find it more tactic, like the way using haste on gear to speed the auto attack on XI or the stun rotation, didn't want to bring XI but it's just an example. I'm not saying let's bring the XI combat here, but XIV 1.0 was fast enough, faster than 1.0 it's too much, at least for me.

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How is 3-4sec CD on skills fast paced? in 1.0 you could use combo of 3 skills quickly with no GCD. and on DRG you got that skill that remove CD of a skill, so you could potentially do 6 hit combo in short amount of time, with no GCD, so that was even more fast paced -.-
A game isn't tactical because it's slow paced -.- it just makes you slow paced and indecisive. you can do split second decisions, and be tactical in fast paced combat also, so your argument is silly.
Why wouldnt haste be able to be in the game? increasing AA speed would always be nice, 2x atk spd from 3sec to 1.5sec. Then you wouldn't need to use all those ooh so annoyingly fast skills so much -.- But increasing AA speed also, would make the game even more fast paced wouldn't it? -.-

I dont understand how people can be so blinded by sentimentality of being fan of past generation version/games, that you dont see how fail your arguments are...

aaaaanyways, like others said, i think iron giant twitch to much ^^ it should only do that on crits, stuns, or if you do more than 20% damage/hit or something like that.

I wouldn't mind the skill chain system from 1.0, so you dont need to wait for GCD to use combos.

Party combat seems like it could be a lot of fun.
Now this was low lv content and such, so it wasn't overly exciting, but yah, i think it will be a lot of fun later. So im looking forward to that ^^
Cant wait to try out my 50DRG hehe.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

These are probably the same people who like DCUO, SWTOR, STO etc that use 111111111231111116722421111546 battle as well, even WoW has a similar action bar system, so um yeah it's a complete fail of a system that will never succeed and all games that use it will fail, even the ones that have 10 million+ subscribers.

Now let's think of other things that some may see as a spamfest...

Final Fantasy 1 through 13-2 Attack, Attack, Attack Guard, Attack, Attack, Attack Cure, Jump, Kick Attack, Guard, Attack, Attack, Guard, Attack, Attack, Attack.

FPS Look through sight, fire fire fire fire fire fire fire fire move repeat.

Racing games, hold throttle........... brake turn throttle brake turn throttle brake turn.

Anyone see where I am going with this? All games in their own way are a spamfest.

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And how about books?

Read read read read turn page read read read read...what a spamfest. People should just get out and exercise more.

Run run run run run run rest run run run run run...oh SNAP.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Try to keep in mind that, for WHATEVER reason, SE made a group combat video with only 3 available jobs in alpha. 2 of those jobs require you to stand still when fighting.

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because the title says: Alpha first look? they want to show how the game basically looks, to people that cant play alpha. And since the alpha only has the classes it has, that's how it looks.
and really...in 1.0 parties were comprised of preferably WHM, BLM, WAR only anyways...

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Speed of combat has no relevance to tactics. Combat can be fast and have tactics to it, and combat can be slow and not have tactics. The two have no direct correlation.

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Tactics in how you build and gear you character.. yes it does. you have to think Final fantasy and not any old mmo. Gear & spells placed on you make your character gain benefits, it wouldn't normally have. I loved my haste build in FFXI Sam/Drg. Or playing FF:Tactics, gearing and setting up my characters to play a certain way.

It adds depth to customization and the game itself. If everyone is fighting as the highest speed already then whats there to look forward too end game. This is the tactic/strategy I speak of. Building of your character.

People think a 3 second GCD is too slow, yet combat is a spamfest?

/mindboggled

You know what i like the most about this video? It seems as though it is turning off some of the more vocal and unpleasant posters here so with any luck they will not be playing ARR. HUZZAH!

I think it looks great! it wont be the put-you-to-sleep kind of MMO. Me likey! But it does all boil down to how it actually feels when you play it.

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Originally Posted by Rustyhagun

Tactics in how you build and gear you character.. yes it does. you have to think Final fantasy and not any old mmo. Gear & spells placed on you make your character gain benefits, it wouldn't normally have. I loved my haste build in FFXI Sam/Drg. Or playing FF:Tactics, gearing and setting up my characters to play a certain way.

It adds depth to customization and the game itself. If everyone is fighting as the highest speed already then whats there to look forward too end game. This is the tactic/strategy I speak of. Building of your character.

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ok, so then every game in history is tactical...so what's your point?
tactic is only in using haste to max atk spd end game?

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Originally Posted by Rustyhagun

Tactics

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http://rjw57.github.com/notes/_images/montoya.jpg

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Originally Posted by Radacci

How is 3-4sec CD on skills fast paced? in 1.0 you could use combo of 3 skills quickly with no GCD. and on DRG you got that skill that remove CD of a skill, so you could potentially do 6 hit combo in short amount of time, with no GCD, so that was even more fast paced -.-
A game isn't tactical because it's slow paced -.- it just makes you slow paced and indecisive. you can do split second decisions, and be tactical in fast paced combat also, so your argument is silly.
Why wouldnt haste be able to be in the game? increasing AA speed would always be nice, 2x atk spd from 3sec to 1.5sec. Then you wouldn't need to use all those ooh so annoyingly fast skills so much -.- But increasing AA speed also, would make the game even more fast paced wouldn't it? -.-

I dont understand how people can be so blinded by sentimentality of being fan of past generation version/games, that you dont see how fail your arguments are...

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On 1.0 you could use 3 skills quickly but you had a long CD on each WS. At least for me i feel it more tactical if it's more slow, maybe because i played GW2 and had a spam of auto attack and abilities.

I'm not being fan of the past generation, i do like FFXIII, and the speed there i had no problem with it, but when it's goes for an MMO i preffer another thing. But it's me, it what i like, i'm not saying the word of the right and everyone or SE need to follow what i say.

There are a lot of things i like from the video, but i use the forum to say what i don't like.

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Originally Posted by vax

There are a lot of things i like from the video, but i use the forum to say what i don't like.

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I wish everyone understood that this is what nearly everyone does.

Because what happens is some dipstick reads through the responses to this video, then goes to his blog and says, "FFXIV is getting SLAMMED by EVERYONE in the community! FAIL INCOMING"

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Totally. I think they were a bit premature in releasing this. We've already seen how the combat UI works. They should have waited until more classes were available to show off partying.

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BAM! That sums up this whole thread..

There was absolutely NOTHING exciting about that video.. Well maybe if this is your first MMO EVER.. maybe

I think they should just wait until open Beta, after revisions/feedback/polishing, before putting out these videos. Or at least only put them out to Legacy members who already have some vested interest in the game and can fully understand the magnitude of some of these changes at least. I'm not sure global marketing based on Alpha when the game already failed once is turning out to be a good idea..

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Originally Posted by Exn

I'm not sure global marketing based on Alpha when the game already failed once is turning out to be a good idea..

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UNLESS, they were to release these videos with developer commentary, so they could explain to us what was going on and what their plans are for what we're watching instead of leaving it up to the community to speculate.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Auto-pilot to win it!

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Yeah that's the spamfest your talking about... there's more to it than just 'falling into a routine' kind of thing. If a boss in FF used something to drastically change the playing field, your going to need to readjust to that.

If you keep up your rambo FPS tactic your ganna get shot by campers. Should of used that flashbang... or not go that route at all.

If you think going down a racetrack thinking it's a time trial run when someones drifting to make a pass at you, your probably ganna skid on collision because you fail to notice that guy on the inside lane.

Yeah, people will fall into a routine. It's just up to whatever content the game shells out to actually differentiate the routine people use every now and then. In the end it's all going to boil down to situational awareness, since sometimes things don't go the way you expect it to.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

Unlike 1.0? it was kinda rent a grind area too...

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Yeah but at least you used the good chunk of the map at least. Enemies may flee from you sometimes, or you'd try to find the 'target' mobs hiding amongst the common mobs.

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Originally Posted by Exn

BAM! That sums up this whole thread..

There was absolutely NOTHING exciting about that video.. Well maybe if this is your first MMO EVER.. maybe

I think they should just wait until open Beta, after revisions/feedback/polishing, before putting out these videos. Or at least only put them out to Legacy members who already have some vested interest in the game and can fully understand the magnitude of some of these changes at least. I'm not sure global marketing based on Alpha when the game already failed once is turning out to be a good idea..

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Ya because releasing vids to us hardcore fan boys on the forums is Global Marketing. . . My word. . .

People would find fault with a cure for Cancer and AIDs.

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Originally Posted by Davy

People would find fault with a cure for Cancer and AIDs.

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Cancer and AIDS are two of the only tools Earth has to curb overpopulation.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

UNLESS, they were to release these videos with developer commentary, so they could explain to us what was going on and what their plans are for what we're watching instead of leaving it up to the community to speculate.

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That is really an excellent idea. Even with bold colored lettering, somehow people miss what certain things are suppose to represent. So how bout a Comentated and Subtitled Video, with little quizzes along the way, to see if people understand what is being said. ;)
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Apart from all the obvious things that are missing from this Alpha footage. (obvious ='s things not yet implemented)

I can really appreciate the responsiveness of this new system.
-You can see what spells are being cast in the party list, you'll notice that the spells actually go off, with the timer.
-You can see that WS's are performed instantaneously

For the Party Fights in gereral, the UI is nicely laid out and useful. No sign of a "Threat" meter though.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

For the Party Fights in gereral, the UI is nicely laid out and useful. No sign of a "Threat" meter though.

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I might be wrong and can be corrected, but I think the there is a agro meter to a degree. The number on the lower left on the party list that is listed from A(Agro) to 8 and depending on who is building more hate the number chances up the list. . . 8 being the least hate and 2 close to getting agro and finally A to. . . you have it. . . correct me if I am wrong though but that is what I am seeing anyways.

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Originally Posted by Davy

Ya because releasing vids to us hardcore fan boys on the forums is Global Marketing. . . My word. . .

People would find fault with a cure for Cancer and AIDs.

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Ya because only hardcore fan boys are the only ones who 1) can see these videos 2) have seen these videos... My word.. Blah blah blah... What was your point again??

..Nevermind, clearly you didn't have one..

For the animation twitching I can see it being tone down a bit even though allot of battle related stuff is taken out apparently. I going to speak for the larger enemy's like the one in videos making it where critical hit causes them twitch like that isn't really best solution either you have to also account for the other players as well when they do critical hits also and adding further upon that if gotten to a 16 to 24 man party's will get the same issue with that but that can change because it is alpha.

For example instead if the large monster like these are susceptible to like blunt type damage that doesn't automatically make them flinch it when you do a combo/weapon skill with blunt type effect that cause them to flinch if you hit for a critical then maybe that flinch effect last about two second longer preventing them from reacting for those seconds.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

For the Party Fights in gereral, the UI is nicely laid out and useful. No sign of a "Threat" meter though.

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Actually, look over the left-hand side of the screen, below the party list.
There is an actually very small indicator that contains the enemy party, also a number and a bar. Bar shows enemy health, number is aggro. at least from what I gather

Stop whining about every little thing.

People wanted a faster battle system, so they made it faster. The battle system did not become any less "complicated" than before. Thunder -> Thundara -> Thundaga was not any more complicated than this, and just because the battle system is faster does not mean it's suddenly a "spamfest."

Furthermore, if people are complaining 3 second GCD is too long, how can you also complain it's a "spamfest?" That 3 second GCD gives you more than enough time to make a calculated decision on your next attack. In my opinion, it's perfectly fine, and it's no different than the animation lock and/or lag we were experiencing in 1.0, except now we're not totally locked out of movement/etc and it's shorter.

IN ADDITION, you have to remember that this is low level combat. Think about what you were doing at level 20 in FFXIV: as a mage, I was just using Thunder over and over, and occasionally Thundara. There were also fire parties, and guess what you did there? Oh that's right, you spammed Fire. Was that a spamfest? Is this a spamfest? Seriously, you're just finding anything to complain about. Even melee were just auto attacking (doing absolutely nothing) until they got enough TP, then hit the button, then waiting some more (maybe you had a combo to hit another button too, ooh!). This is no different, except now you don't have to wait for the TP, and it's faster. Think about what you do in level 20 of a game like WoW, but this is already more complicated than that. Yes, I play WoW, and at level 20 most casters just use the same nuke spell over and over and over, and I never heard of that being called a spamfest (even at max level some casters use the same spell over and over for maximum dps).

On top of everything else: it's alpha. Expressing negative feedback is fine, but some people are just outright calling it "shitty" for no reason. Seriously, use your brain and think things through before whining like a child that the game isn't perfect for you in every way.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

UNLESS, they were to release these videos with developer commentary, so they could explain to us what was going on and what their plans are for what we're watching instead of leaving it up to the community to speculate.

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Yeah, I do think that would help tremendously curb some of the populations concerns/fears about ARR. Would be a much better option to what they are currently doing. However, I'd think players are still going to want/demand to see 'proof of concept' before buying into an already failed game, again. So as long as whatever they forecasted during Alpha, actually was able to be presented by the end of beta, it should prove to be a much better marketing strategy.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Totally. I think they were a bit premature in releasing this. We've already seen how the combat UI works. They should have waited until more classes were available to show off partying.

The video should have been about levequests and that's it.

Or nothing at all, really. Something like this could have easily been delivered to players in the form of a dev post on the forums. I appreciate that they're trying to provide more updates, and use different mediums for providing those updates. But I'd rather play the game and find out how these systems work myself than watch a video about them.

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I took it more as an oportunity to look at the UI. A lot of things added to it that I'm loving. Better agro indicators, target of target, debuff with timers under the target hp bar, etc.

Cant wait for ARR.

Looking good, didnt see any skillchain, are we having that feature?

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Originally Posted by elreed

Looking good, didnt see any skillchain, are we having that feature?

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There are no skillchains from FFXI in this game. We had the battle regimen system, but that is being reworked into the Limit Break system.