Game pad vs Keyboard

this thread give me the @_@

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/.../480/OpoQQ.jpg

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Originally Posted by ispano

Also, not to mention, while you're "tabbing" through targets to get the right one, with the default controller setup you're also not moving. If you change movement to the other stick, or targeting to a different button you can, but then you can't do something else while moving and targeting. I can..

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I fail to see how selecting targets prevents me from moving or doing something else.
I can run to a given nuke spot target my chosen mob and have my selected spell ready to cast before I even get there, start casting as soon as i get there and have second wind ready to pop as if i'm the first to get my spell of i'm likely to take a few hits.

the idea that I can't move my character if i'm selecting a target or something is very very wrong.

if i needed to i could run over here, target something over there, swing the camera around on it, hit any action i wanted to do and do it all at the same time.

I would simply say, if you can't then you suck with gamepads which is really no different to how i suck with a mouse and keyboard. comes down to preference.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I fail to see how selecting targets prevents me from moving or doing something else.
I can run to a given nuke spot target my chosen mob and have my selected spell ready to cast before I even get there, start casting as soon as i get there and have second wind ready to pop as if i'm the first to get my spell of i'm likely to take a few hits.

the idea that I can't move my character if i'm selecting a target or something is very very wrong.

if i needed to i could run over here, target something over there, swing the camera around on it, hit any action i wanted to do and do it all at the same time.

I would simply say, if you can't then you suck with gamepads which is really no different to how i suck with a mouse and keyboard. comes down to preference.

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My point was that you're limited to how much you can do at the same time with a gamepad, I know this because I use one for many many games. If moving and targeting are the left stick and the dpad, which they are by default, unless you have weird fingers, you're not doing both at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Felis

In the V1 I use a gamepad. Need to test what is best for me in V2 ^^

You can change the "action bar up/down" keys in the keyboard config.
And <stpc> should be ingame since some patches.

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I appreciate the tips. But even though you can change the Cycle action bars (forward/reverse ) which I have done, it still defaults to the move anchor menu keys. So basically I can cycle my action bar when not in combat by holding down shift and pressing the arrow keys up or down. but once I am engaged and in active mode up or down on the arrow keys will cycle the action bar regardless of whether shift is held or not.

And I do use the <stpc> command right now, but it's function is to cycle through players visible on the screen from left to right. <stpt> allowed you to select and cycle through party members (and only party members) via the party list using the up and down arrow keys. that way they didn't need to be visible on your screen, just within targetable range of your character.

As is I use <stpc> in conjunction with f2-8, but it still has trouble with party members that aren't actually on your screen, which is not even remotely ideal when trying to cure people in a fight like the princess in CC.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I appreciate the tips. But even though you can change the Cycle action bars (forward/reverse ) which I have done, it still defaults to the move anchor menu keys. So basically I can cycle my action bar when not in combat by holding down shift and pressing the arrow keys up or down. but once I am engaged and in active mode up or down on the arrow keys will cycle the action bar regardless of whether shift is held or not.

And I do use the <stpc> command right now, but it's function is to cycle through players visible on the screen from left to right. <stpt> allowed you to select and cycle through party members (and only party members) via the party list using the up and down arrow keys. that way they didn't need to be visible on your screen, just within targetable range of your character.

As is I use <stpc> in conjunction with f2-8, but it still has trouble with party members that aren't actually on your screen, which is not even remotely ideal when trying to cure people in a fight like the princess in CC.

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I have the anchor keys on those defaults same as you, with Shift Up/Down for the bars bound to two mouse thumb buttons, and they work flawlessly, never changing anything with the anchor. What I would suggest doing in your situation, since it's the reverse of mine since I only use Up/Down with Shift to move bars, is perhaps use different keys you may be comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by ispano

My point was that you're limited to how much you can do at the same time with a gamepad, I know this because I use one for many many games. If moving and targeting are the left stick and the dpad, which they are by default, unless you have weird fingers, you're not doing both at the same time.

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You do realize... there is a whole nother hand on that controller right...? I assume you have an itty bitty microscopic right thumb that can't reach the dpad? (And that's only if you happen to be using strictly default setups... which also could be your problem..)

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Originally Posted by Inkie

You do realize... there is a whole nother hand on that controller right...? I assume you have an itty bitty microscopic right thumb that can't reach the dpad? (And that's only if you happen to be using strictly default setups... which also could be your problem..)

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My problem? I can play just fine with the controller. I can play just fine with Keyboard/Mouse. Does my personal preference or skill automatically negate that one is better than the other? No. My point with the comment you replied to is that with a controller, you're more limited in what you can do at once. And obviously you can put targeting on the right side, and before a fight you can have the skill you want to use preselected. But in the middle of a fight if you have to move around your bars and buttons, move, AND target all at the same time, can you? Sure if you set up the controller just right you can in theory do it all, but a Mouse/KB will still do it better.

Gamepad for my part; I'm not sure I could get by using mouse and keyboard but I really enjoy the interface (slow response times aside) with the pad, and think I'd like to keep using it even if they vastly improve the keyboard+mouse UI. Mine's some Speedlink PS3/PC wireless thing. For the longest time I was actually using one of the game's official controllers, they're pretty good in terms of usability.. but it seems they have some sort of defect in the sticks, and gradually need you to raise calibration higher and higher over time until it's a choice between the character/camera moving around randomly of having calibrate set so high as to make control sluggish.

Speaking of, I hope we get a look at 2.0's promised 'separate UI for gamepads' soon. I'm beginning to get an unpleasant (though likely unfounded - I mean, isn't gamepad control supposed to be more popular among Japanese PC MMO players?) feeling that it's becoming a case of PC users get the new keyboard and/or mouse UI and the gamepad one'll just be for (or delayed until) the console release.

Also: O to confirm forever!

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Originally Posted by ispano

I have the anchor keys on those defaults same as you, with Shift Up/Down for the bars bound to two mouse thumb buttons, and they work flawlessly, never changing anything with the anchor. What I would suggest doing in your situation, since it's the reverse of mine since I only use Up/Down with Shift to move bars, is perhaps use different keys you may be comfortable with.

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My issue is more with the fact that the anchor keys default to moving the action bar at all. Ideally I'd like to have a separate set of key binds for the menu anchor keys and the action bar anchor keys.

I don't use my mouse at all and I use the arrow keys for the Camera as well as for cycling through the menu. And for that it works great. But when I'm in combat the fact that the menu anchor keys double as the "cycle through actions" keys is where everything falls apart.

Trying to set my anchor keys to something else would be incredibly confusing.

Ideally what I would like to happen is to turn off any functionality of the action bar reticle, keep my shift+up/down to cycle through bars and rely on the numerical keys to activate abilities.

That would also fix the inadvertent skill use that accompanies the horrible combat/noncombat target reticle.

But it's just not going to happen.

And unbinding doesn't fix it either. I understand why it's the way it is, but if you unbind it should at least really unbind it. Won't matter in 2.0 however

I use a combination of the two. I prefer playing with a gamepad, but it isn't great for selecting actions, so I use it to run around and deal with the camera, while I use the keyboard for actions. I move action bars with the gamepad and also, since I'm a Bard, use light shot by just pressing a button on the gamepad. When I've healed in parties before I use the mouse to select people from the party list since it's quicker than using the gamepad.

Kind of at work, so I basically am skipping everything past page one, but:

I personally use the keyboard and mouse, mostly because it feels WAY too awkward for me to sit in front of a computer and use a gamepad. Also because I think that the game's targetting works a lot better with mouse targetting as well as ability selection.

That said, I don't really use the keyboard, I use a Razer Nostromo with a handful of macros programmed into it (essentially Ctrl+1~4, which are binds for jump on selected target, self-cure, self-stoneskin and elixir). I am very comfortable with that setup and wouldn't trade it for a controller, that said, my friends swear by the use of the controller.

the gamepad for me is the best, but i dont know how will be with the new UI, however i can play with the mouse and keyboard without problem.

PLD , I use key board and mouse, even when on dd classes it seems alot easier to spam abilities to keep them on cool down, with new UI set up tho, looks like we can have two bars up at once, where that looks awsome and super usefull, not sure how that will work, as 1-0 are already used for the first bar... maybe alt function? but we already have that with macros, and frankly, when done right, macros save alot of time, press one button instead of two or 3 for combos, I like being able to see the CD timers on abilities that I have tied to macros tho, soo know when i can spam em. Only down side to a wepon skill macro is when/if you miss or spell gets resisted, makes the rest of the macro worthless. and if you cant see cool down timers then makes it harder to keep spaming macros successfully.

Keyboard only all the way.

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Originally Posted by Raubahn

weird. . .i only play with keyboard XD

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This is what I do too :D

a. Currently utilize X-BOX 360 USB Controller for 95% of all in game interactions.
b. Type using keyboard.
c. Sometimes I scroll menus using mouse.

Pros:
- Windows recognizes it so it works well with the computer.
- No need for Motion Joy

Cons:
- Have to put down controller to type, but I don't recognize when I do that anymore. It isn't even something I think about.
- Getting familiar with the button placement. I use to use a PS2 and PS3 controller.

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Other items I have tried and the reason I no longer use them:

PS2 Controller:
- Couldn't get a stable recognition with Motion Joy.
- If I went in a diagonal direction I would walk instead of run.

PS3 Controller with USB connection:
- Couldn't get a stable recognition with Motion Joy.
- If I went in a diagonal direction I would walk instead of run.
- PS3 System would recognize controller and steal controls. So essentially I would be running around in game and I would hear "ping" and be like crap! And stop having control.

Logitech Wired:
- Couldn't get a stable recognition with Motion Joy.
- If I went in a diagonal direction I would walk instead of run.

Logitech Wireless:
- Couldn't get a stable recognition with Motion Joy.
- If I went in a diagonal direction I would walk instead of run.
- I would experience serious lag between when I pressed the button and when my character responded.

Keyboard / Mouse:
- I cannot effectively play with a keyboard.
a. It is hard for me to get a good camera angle or rotation going.

Basically I know that some people have mastered playing with the keyboard and mouse for select target and all that jazz. I only played one MMO where I mastered the setup, because there was no other option I was familiar with. So personal preference plays a big part in my selection.

i use keyboard + mouse

i play it like that:
tab the target (or click it) then just use the keyboard numbers press enter and thats it. you should not use your mouse to click through the skills and press enter for confirming the action. leave the mouse for most of the time aside.

you should use the mouse just for camera angle

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Originally Posted by ispano

My point was that you're limited to how much you can do at the same time with a gamepad, I know this because I use one for many many games. If moving and targeting are the left stick and the dpad, which they are by default, unless you have weird fingers, you're not doing both at the same time.

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except we have auto-run...so you can auto run, and target...and then turn off auto run to stop...it's a coordination thing

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

except we have auto-run...so you can auto run, and target...and then turn off auto run to stop...it's a coordination thing

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Except with auto run you turn, you can't strafe.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Except with auto run you turn, you can't strafe.

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It is moments like this, I wish I DID actually use programs like fraps for gameplay footage from my angle. I am able to keep facing the target just fine as battle them on jobs like Monk WITH a controller.The only exception is if you run straight through them...and in this case, in a battle a weapon skill will still accurately go off even if you don't turn around...so you can combo, then turn around if you wish...so maybe, maybe i might miss one auto-attack, but again, hasn't really ever been noticable on any parcer I've been a part of as a DD. Which leads me back to....it's a gameplay preference thing.



Again, preference and practice.

controller all the way, give me freedom to be lazy and relax.

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Originally Posted by ispano

My problem? I can play just fine with the controller. I can play just fine with Keyboard/Mouse. Does my personal preference or skill automatically negate that one is better than the other? No. My point with the comment you replied to is that with a controller, you're more limited in what you can do at once. And obviously you can put targeting on the right side, and before a fight you can have the skill you want to use preselected. But in the middle of a fight if you have to move around your bars and buttons, move, AND target all at the same time, can you? Sure if you set up the controller just right you can in theory do it all, but a Mouse/KB will still do it better.

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so with a keyboard and mouse, can you move around your target using wasd or whatever the keys are by default, hit your abilities on 7890 numbers. click your targets with the mouse? fairly tricky without 3 hands, doing that i'd personally have my left hand on wasd my right hand on 7890 and my third hand on the mouse.... oh wait......

with a control pad i can do everything you asked at the same time. and thats using the default settings for an xbox pad alot more comfortably than trying to find 3 hands. your point that a keyboard and mouse is far superior is just so very wrong

i use controller 100% of the time, only use keyboard for chat and when i want to walk instead of run. only thing i don't like about the controller is the targeting system.

I see a lot of people saying how keyboard is better due to having everything will on controller i can do everything without issue. The only issue is typing but i use mumble so i took view status effects off from the controller because i know all the buff and debuff so i put button for mumble so i can talk and fight.

I myself find the keyboard for FFXIV really bad in FFXI i could use both without issue in ffxiv i can only use controller. In 2.0 i'm sure both controller and keyboard would have a nice upgrade so i don't see a issue by then.

Overall it's what you like best

Keyboard mouse is really the worse setup, technically. If we remove player skill from the equation it would go like this:

Full Keyboard
Controller
Keyboard+Mouse

Imo full keyboard is clearly the absolute best because everything is in one place. Additionally, it has greater potential for customization because there are a LOT more keys to bind. Everyone knows how effortless it is to type with a keyboard; playing a game with a keyboard is basically the same thing. It does take a lot of getting used to..like remembering what is binded where and getting used to "typing" in that language. But once you do there is nothing more efficient.

Controller is basically like keyboard with less buttons to bind. But really that is only a very small knock against it. You could argue its equal to keyboard, but I still give the edge to keyboard because of its full functionality and greater customization. As has been said, you can't type with most controllers..although some controllers do have a keyboard. Whether a controller is better than a full keyboard will depend largely on the game's control scheme and how keyboard bind friendly it is.

The worst option is a keyboard+mouse. It cuts the keyboard essentially in half, giving you few keys to bind, and leaving a lot of skills out of reach. Clicking skills takes too long, clicking to target is not reliable. Most casual gamers will obviously be more comfortable with the "point and click" setup, but as at technical instrument it is definitely inferior. I don't really see how we can argue its not.

Naturally player skill makes up for all these things, but there's no way a keyboard/mouse is technically more efficient.

I don't bother to use controller with this game simply because this game won't recognize it again if it gets disconnected for any reason. You have to turn the whole game off and start it up again just to get your controller working again.

I hope the 2.0 client fixes that... as well as being able to alt-tab... >.>

I use a controller 100% (standard logitec wired, same one I used with FFXI for years). I never have a problem with it.

I dislike using keyboard on any games, therefore I am not accustomed to it... I find I get cramps in my finger joints after the first 2 hours, but with a controller I am comfortable for hours on end ^^

I think after practice you wont gain any significant speed with a keyboard.. also you have to make sure the tank/primary healing objective is at the bottom or top of the party list, that's just good planning.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

so with a keyboard and mouse, can you move around your target using wasd or whatever the keys are by default, hit your abilities on 7890 numbers. click your targets with the mouse? fairly tricky without 3 hands, doing that i'd personally have my left hand on wasd my right hand on 7890 and my third hand on the mouse.... oh wait......

with a control pad i can do everything you asked at the same time. and thats using the default settings for an xbox pad alot more comfortably than trying to find 3 hands. your point that a keyboard and mouse is far superior is just so very wrong

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I can actually, played FPS games and MMOs for 10 years, not to mention if I really wanted I could remap keys near WASD to those last few slots.

A keyboard/mouse IS far superior for the type of game this is and when the ui issues and such holding it back vanish in 2.0 it'll be even more pronounced. Compare the two on what they are and can do and not if you or someone else can use it well and it becomes apparent.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

It is moments like this, I wish I DID actually use programs like fraps for gameplay footage from my angle. I am able to keep facing the target just fine as battle them on jobs like Monk WITH a controller.The only exception is if you run straight through them...and in this case, in a battle a weapon skill will still accurately go off even if you don't turn around...so you can combo, then turn around if you wish...so maybe, maybe i might miss one auto-attack, but again, hasn't really ever been noticable on any parcer I've been a part of as a DD. Which leads me back to....it's a gameplay preference thing.



Again, preference and practice.

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You still cannot strafe, it just doesn't work. Whether you can do what you say or not isn't even the point. One system is more suited to FPS/TPS than the other, period. Preferences aside obviously. But everyone keeps bringing that up when that's not how you compare them.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Keyboard mouse is really the worse setup, technically. If we remove player skill from the equation it would go like this:

Full Keyboard
Controller
Keyboard+Mouse

Imo full keyboard is clearly the absolute best because everything is in one place. Additionally, it has greater potential for customization because there are a LOT more keys to bind. Everyone knows how effortless it is to type with a keyboard; playing a game with a keyboard is basically the same thing. It does take a lot of getting used to..like remembering what is binded where and getting used to "typing" in that language. But once you do there is nothing more efficient.

Controller is basically like keyboard with less buttons to bind. But really that is only a very small knock against it. You could argue its equal to keyboard, but I still give the edge to keyboard because of its full functionality and greater customization. As has been said, you can't type with most controllers..although some controllers do have a keyboard. Whether a controller is better than a full keyboard will depend largely on the game's control scheme and how keyboard bind friendly it is.

The worst option is a keyboard+mouse. It cuts the keyboard essentially in half, giving you few keys to bind, and leaving a lot of skills out of reach. Clicking skills takes too long, clicking to target is not reliable. Most casual gamers will obviously be more comfortable with the "point and click" setup, but as at technical instrument it is definitely inferior. I don't really see how we can argue its not.

Naturally player skill makes up for all these things, but there's no way a keyboard/mouse is technically more efficient.

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If you're clicking abilities with a KB/Mouse setup, most will say you're doing it wrong. I won't since that's player choice. However when you use a KB/Mouse, the mouse is for movement and targeting, not clicking skills, if you want to use it to it's full potential that is. Thumb buttons on the mouse make it even better, ie things like the Naga (I despise Razer products, but it does what it advertises) This gets debated time and time again, and people bring preference into the picture. Comparing one input method to another without the human variable, KB/Mouse will outshine a gamepad in a game of this design unless severely handicapped on purpose.

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Originally Posted by ispano

If you're clicking abilities with a KB/Mouse setup, most will say you're doing it wrong. I won't since that's player choice. However when you use a KB/Mouse, the mouse is for movement and targeting, not clicking skills, if you want to use it to it's full potential that is. Thumb buttons on the mouse make it even better, ie things like the Naga (I despise Razer products, but it does what it advertises) This gets debated time and time again, and people bring preference into the picture. Comparing one input method to another without the human variable, KB/Mouse will outshine a gamepad in a game of this design unless severely handicapped on purpose.

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You sound like the pro fighting game players that say you can't win with using a controller cause it limits you, then they proceed to loose to several controller users >.>.

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Originally Posted by Firon

You sound like the pro fighting game players that say you can't win with using a controller cause it limits you, then they proceed to loose to several controller users >.>.

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oi... you mean the ones that bring the human variable into the discussion? Which i'm specifically saying not to and compare the two on their own merits? The same variable most people here are leaving in the equation? No, i'm not one of the "KB/Mouse Master Race types" I look at what the inputs are capable of and compare based on that.

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Originally Posted by ispano

If you're clicking abilities with a KB/Mouse setup, most will say you're doing it wrong. I won't since that's player choice. However when you use a KB/Mouse, the mouse is for movement and targeting, not clicking skills, if you want to use it to it's full potential that is. Thumb buttons on the mouse make it even better, ie things like the Naga (I despise Razer products, but it does what it advertises) This gets debated time and time again, and people bring preference into the picture. Comparing one input method to another without the human variable, KB/Mouse will outshine a gamepad in a game of this design unless severely handicapped on purpose.

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No it wont. I've already explained to you that a keyboard and mouse gives you much less to work with. Basically you cut out over half of your keyboard. So thats half of your keys that are now useless and cant be binded. On top of that, you trade all of those keys for a mouse that possesses the function of two keys at most (camera movement and targetting). You cannot say that is better...you took away more than you gained.

You gained better targeting precision and speed, and many mice have SEVERAL buttons outside of right and left click. Mine only has 4-7 depending on how I set it up, Naga has more but I don't like Razer products. Unless I need 30, 40, or even more hotkeys, i'm set. In fact with my mouse I typically have 6 functions using buttons on it alone, another 6+ using Modifier keys.

So, yes, I CAN say it's better. Not to mention my comparison is against a gamepad. Not a standalone keyboard. Keyboard keys are all on/off, there's no.... precision to movement and such with a keyboard. Even a Gamepad is better for movement than a keyboard alone.

I play 1.0 with a PS3 pad but I can't actually wait to switch to kb+mouse when 2.0 hits.

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Originally Posted by ispano

You gained better targeting precision and speed, and many mice have SEVERAL buttons outside of right and left click. Mine only has 4-7 depending on how I set it up, Naga has more but I don't like Razer products. Unless I need 30, 40, or even more hotkeys, i'm set. In fact with my mouse I typically have 6 functions using buttons on it alone, another 6+ using Modifier keys.

So, yes, I CAN say it's better. Not to mention my comparison is against a gamepad. Not a standalone keyboard. Keyboard keys are all on/off, there's no.... precision to movement and such with a keyboard. Even a Gamepad is better for movement than a keyboard alone.

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No. You. Cant lol.

First of all precision with a mouse is entirely dependent on the user. I thought we were leaving player skill out of the discussion.

Secondly an MMO does not require aiming..only on/off targetting. Hitting a button is faster and does not miss. Ever. Moving and clicking is clearly inferior to hitting a button. Mouse is only good where aiming is required...like an fps.

Thirdly, regardless of how many buttons your mouse has, if you are using it to point and click it is inferior.

Finally, a gamepad is superior to a mouse for the same reasons. Buttons are faster than point and click. They never miss. They can do everything a mouse can +more.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

They never miss. They can do everything a mouse can +more.

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well at least targeting with a controller has its disadvantages.

with mouse+keyboard you can aim via TAB (we know how bad this works sometimes, when you have more than 10 friendly/foe targets) or via mouseclick. and mouseclick is in some situations just better. its more direct.
like in egoshooters, where keyboard + mouse is far more superior than any controller.. you cant say anything else.


i play FF14 for most of the time with keyboard only and mouse just for changing the angle sometimes.
Tab the target (or click it), chose your skillnumber on the keyboard and just confirm with pressing [enter]. some people seem not to know, that enter works as confirmation of the skill action ;XD



and i dont like the idea to play with controller and then when you have to write into the chat, that you have to lay aside the controller each time.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

and i dont like the idea to play with controller and then when you have to write into the chat, that you have to lay aside the controller each time.

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Just to chip in on this bit of the argument, there is one thing seems like it's being overlooked..

You don't have to set aside your controller to type - at least I don't have to. In fact, if you play with a controller, I at least find it has the advantage of keeping me able to play while I use the keyboard to type. Perhaps I'm a little more adept at one-handed typing than most, but the way I see it, as it is now I have two choices:

1: Use controller.
Able to type with one hand and manipulate one side of the controller with the other. In other words, I can still move around while I type. I'd even be able to continue to issue commands with a little finger gymnastics, were it not that typing messages locks out doing so. And as a very minor side benefit, I don't have to hit space to type because it lets me put the game in chat specific keyboard mode.

2: Use the keyboard and/or mouse.
From my perspective, this option poses the greater disadvantage. Without the controller, if I press space to begin typing then I lose the ability to play completely until the message is sent, because the game stops taking commands from the keyboard because it's being used to send a message, whereas with a gamepad I'd still have some semblance of control.

Just last night I was kiting the magitech Vanguard at the end of Castrum Novum. Were it not for the gamepad I'd have had to stop running to type, and my keeping up communication with the rest of my party would have gotten me and maybe several others flattened.

As a left handed player I use a mouse in my left hand and the numpad + arrow keys with my right hand. I switch actionbars with the up and down arrow. It's a very easy way to play the game, but the set back is that I don't really use any macros except for gear swaps.