Dark Knight Changes - Suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because you have this weird insistence that your opinion is just objectively correct and anyone else who opposes your opinion is just wrong

I DESPISE WAR’s dungeon design whether I’m playing the WAR, the healer or even the DPS watching the poor healers role get completely pasted over by boring uninteractive overpowered CD’s

I. DO. NOT. WANT. WHAT. YOU. PROPOSE. It would ruin the only tank I still semi regularly play in normal content. Please read that, and read that again and read that again till it sinks in. You aren’t a unilateral authority here, your opinion holds just as much weight as any of us and a lot of us hate your proposed suggestion

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I'm sorry, but when you speak like this, using all caps for anything outside of abbreviations or highlighting a key word, and separating the words with periods like that, it's hard for anyone with half a braincell to take you seriously.

Why would anyone ask themselves that question when WAR is objectively not balanced defensively?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Why would anyone ask themselves that question when WAR is objectively not balanced defensively?

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Because warrior is the strongest tank defensively, and if that is considered balanced by the devs, then there is no valid reason for dark knight to continue lacking self sustain at all levels of play.

Probably the more glaring things I noticed with DRK would be TBN and Oblation.

The TBN shield amount seems to be fine when talking to another Savage raider using the class. The issue is more so how Dark Arts procs and can slightly reduce your DPS as a cost ... to getting better gear? It basically needs changes to make proccing Darks Arts easier than it is now. The simplest way suggested would be to require that the person with the shield to just get hit or perhaps make Dark Arts prop up when the timer expires too. Other ways to explore could be to reduce the shield usage threshold to 1/4 to 1/2 and extend the timer a bit longer to 10 seconds if the first proposed changes are too simple.

Oblation does look lackluster with just a 10% damage reduction. If an HP regen is too much, some other areas to try could be blood gauge and mana gains for the DRK using it. Simply adding it to TBN as a trait would make proccing Dark Arts harder since the DR would make breaking the shield more difficult under the current live effects. It would have to be applied after the shield is gone like Carighan said to make such a trait good.

Dark Mind's overall suggestion seems to be making it a "personal Addle" so it retains an identity to being a little bit better against magic. I do agree the combo buttons can be consolidated to fewer button. The VPR already does that and it saves on space by using about 4 slots verses 12 for the triple combos they use. I know the example is weakened by the fact they use Vicewinder / Vicepit and Reawaken stuff more often, but the point still stands for the button space. This can give more room for future expansions on all the melee if they just need to use a few buttons for their combos. Possibly even getting back some of the older combos or abilities we used to have that are requested. Kaiten for SAM is one example. DRK also used to have a Scourge DoT with Delirium being an alternate combo finisher. Although GNB already uses a couple DoTs and DRK would probably need to use an enemy debuff similar to RPR's to differentiate themselves from what the other tanks do.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

The is not my "belief" on dark knight defensives, it is widely agreed that dark knight defensives are no where near enough. But your opinion comes from a frame of mind that's not based in reality. You still refuse to ask yourself this question: "If warrior is balanced defensively, then why is dark knight lacking so much defensively?" Until you can ask yourself that question and answer it objectively, you have no ground to stand on with this topic. I go to the widely agreed upon obvious changes that SHOULD be made, but you ignore that to insult me with a personal attack by accusing me of what you yourself are guilty of the way propagandist new anchors do with the public

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Because WAR is not balanced defensively, again you basically just start from the foundation of “I’m correct” and work from there, I specifically said my opinion is my own and I don’t want what you are proposing nor do I believe WAR is balanced, you have no more say in that than anyone else

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Because warrior is the strongest tank defensively, and if that is considered balanced by the devs, then there is no valid reason for dark knight to continue lacking self sustain at all levels of play.

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That’s not logic at all because by the same logic DRK exists in the game as it does now which means the devs consider it balanced which defeats the whole purpose of your argument

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth trying to argue that WAR existing in its current state is evidence that the devs support WAR’s power but DRK also existing isn’t evidence the devs support DRK’s current power, you can’t argue that both ways at the same time

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because WAR is not balanced defensively, again you basically just start from the foundation of “I’m correct” and work from there, I specifically said my opinion is my own and I don’t want what you are proposing nor do I believe WAR is balanced, you have no more say in that than anyone else



That’s not logic at all because by the same logic DRK exists in the game as it does now which means the devs consider it balanced which defeats the whole purpose of your argument

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth trying to argue that WAR existing in its current state is evidence that the devs support WAR’s power but DRK also existing isn’t evidence the devs support DRK’s current power, you can’t argue that both ways at the same time

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Again with this entire facade about how I'm somehow asserting authority over you. The projection you are making is so unhinged I'm surprised anyone likes your comments. And I can totally argue both at the same time because both being considered balanced cannot be true. Only one of those can be considered balanced and because of how opposite they are of each other, and because of the direction the devs have taken everything with making dungeons designed to be a pushover to begin with, that means warrior has to be the balanced design and dark knight is no where close to being balanced defensively. You being unable to see the entire picture is not everyone else's problem, and projecting your insecurities about it as if you are being talked down to just makes your arguments even less valid. Nobody is talking down to you. But at the same time, no sane person would take you seriously when you keep that silly forum signature about how healers are no longer relevant because dungeons are designed to be a pushover. To which I ask, why haven't you already moved on to a different game that would satisfy your healer god complex? And that's a genuine question.

Honestly, dark knight is suffering so bad defensively that it's a running joke that playing the job in UCOB and UWU is considered griefing, and it's been that way for a long time. But yeah, I guess that's not enough to convince those that live in lala land.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Again with this entire facade about how I'm somehow asserting authority over you. The projection you are making is so unhinged I'm surprised anyone likes your comments. And I can totally argue both at the same time because both being considered balanced cannot be true. Only one of those can be considered balanced and because of how opposite they are of each other, and because of the direction the devs have taken everything with making dungeons designed to be a pushover to begin with, that means warrior has to be the balanced design and dark knight is no where close to being balanced defensively. You being unable to see the entire picture is not everyone else's problem, and projecting your insecurities about it as if you are being talked down to just makes your arguments even less valid. Nobody is talking down to you. But at the same time, no sane person would take you seriously when you keep that silly forum signature about how healers are no longer relevant because dungeons are designed to be a pushover. To which I ask, why haven't you already moved on to a different game that would satisfy your healer god complex? And that's a genuine question.

Honestly, dark knight is suffering so bad defensively that it's a running joke that playing the job in UCOB and UWU is considered griefing, and it's been that way for a long time. But yeah, I guess that's not enough to convince those that live in lala land.

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You aren’t “asserting authority” you are attempting to claim a silent majority or otherwise universally held belief as your foundation. “Oh everyone agrees with this” “everyone says this”. These are meaningless considering you are arguing your own personal opinion. If WAR is balanced then the other 3 are all extremely underpowered, just as if DRK is balanced then all 3 others are extremely overpowered. It’s more likely that somewhere between PLD and GNB is the balance point which proves neither WAR being overpowered nor DRK being underpowered

So again I’ll say I don’t want your changes, that opinion holds as much weight as your assertions. Wanting the healer to be an active part of content they are required to do is not having a healer god complex and it’s pretty rich saying I have a healer god complex when your entire argument is built on the sole foundation that you don’t want to rely on anyone but yourself as ANY tank let alone there is already two that fulfil that overpowered fantasy

I could just as easily ask you why you haven’t moved to an MMO (or a class considering WAR literally already exists) where tanks are all three roles in one

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You aren’t “asserting authority” you are attempting to claim a silent majority or otherwise universally held belief as your foundation. “Oh everyone agrees with this” “everyone says this”. These are meaningless considering you are arguing your own personal opinion. If WAR is balanced then the other 3 are all extremely underpowered, just as if DRK is balanced then all 3 others are extremely overpowered. It’s more likely that somewhere between PLD and GNB is the balance point which proves neither WAR being overpowered nor DRK being underpowered

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First, you are quite wrong about claiming a silent majority. There's a loud majority out there on at least getting the Addle treatment for Dark Mind and I stand behind this suggestion because I was not the first to bring it up. Even you should agree this is not a bad suggestion, but that would require you to play dark knight in m3s, which I know you won't do, and you'll instead come back with another quick response without doing your research. You picked the wrong raid tier to defend the current design of dark knight defensives.

I don't want all 3 roles in one, because we already have that, and I got bored of it in Endwalker, but I don't want dark knight lacking defensively anymore. And if the balance is somewhere between paladin and gunbreaker, then dark knight still falls excessively short of that defensively and is not balanced. Try bringing your opinion into reality. Dark knight receiving a defensive buff is far from some kind of guarantee that it will suddenly be as strong as warrior. It won't matter how many times you state your very selfish opinion about not wanting what many want for dark knight, which btw, is not "everyone", you are not changing anyone's opinion on this, and only furthering the resolve to continue pushing for things that have been getting requested in ever more frequent numbers as the glaring issues with dark knight continue to be ignored. The paranoia about losing healer relevance in dungeons is unwarranted. You are too afraid of change here, and that much is obvious by the fact you have zero suggestions to resolve the issues that exist with dark knight defensives. What you want is not healthy for the game moving forward. Dark knight needs change whether you agree with that or not. You are vastly outnumbered by the number of players that want dark knight defensives to be addressed. You are preaching to the wind.

Eventually, the needs of the many will outweigh the needs of the few and dark knight won't get ignored anymore. Whether that happens before or after Square Enix loses thousands of subscriptions to ignoring dark knight suggestions is anyone's guess.

“You are wrong about I’m claiming a silent majority”

Proceeds to claim a silent majority for 3 paragraphs

Great chat

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

First, you are quite wrong about claiming a silent majority. There's a loud majority out there on at least getting the Addle treatment for Dark Mind and I stand behind this suggestion because I was not the first to bring it up. .

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Literally no one argued against this. You are again chucking red herrings like they'd otherwise detonate in your pants.

You argued that since Warrior has its current level of defensive power, it must be considered "balanced" and all other tanks should therefore be raised to its level of defensive power. This ignores that the defensively weakest tank also exists with its given comparatively weak level of defensive power, which would equally indicate that its defensive power instead is then the intended balance-point.

If mere existence serves as proof enough of design intent, either extreme is as likely the intended balance point as the other. It therefore wholly remains up for debate what amount of defensive power should be given to tanks.

You have argued that all non-WAR tanks should be further buffed, such as by giving every tank WAR's Raw Intuition atop whatever individual buffs the weakest non-WAR may need for parity.

Supersnow has argued that, instead, Warrior should be nerfed and the weakest buffed only as needed to bring all tanks to a level between that of GNB's and PLD's current defensive power.

If anything, that second camp has been the more commonly held across these forums, while the "silent majority" is, by definition, silent and therefore irrelevant.

Both result in the same tank balance, but one of them takes more work, further homogenizes tanks, and further disrupts inter-role balance in favor of what is already the most powerful role. And that's not the position Supersnow has favored here.

I could sit here and put out example after example where even paladin and gunbreaker should have Raw Intuition and example after example where Raw Intuition would have completely saved the run if it was a role ability acquired at level 15 along with the first tank AoE on all tanks. But so many will come out in defense of anti-homogenization in a game that continues to homogenize making them the ones are unwilling to accept the direction Square Enix is taking the game. These people are the loud minority.

The silent majority you speak of will watch and chat with Xenos but not frequent these forums. If they did frequent the forums and put out their opinions on the matter, I would at that time be able to win a bet on a vast majority of them having a major alignment in dark knight needing the most work. But so many who frequent the forums have labeled Xenos a threat to the game and the game's balance and would not so much as be bothered to go look at how many video comments there are on his dark knight rants that agree with him.

I have said countless times that Raw Intuition becoming a tank role ability is just what I would do. There would be no need to add anything outside of that to the other tanks. But I have also mentioned multiple times how that would not be healthy for the game moving forward thanks to the anti-homogenization crowd. You think you got me on this but you have only done the opposite.

Thinking dark knight is balanced is wishful thinking. Dungeons are designed to be a pushover. That is the primary factor in this, and that is why dark knight is the one that is not balanced.

Again, these are the common suggestions:
- Addle treatment for Dark Mind
- Dark Missionary unlocked at same level as Heart of Light
- Regen for Oblation
- Abyssal Drain untied from Carve and Spit

Unhealthy for the game:
- Dark knight defensives continuing to be ignored
- Raw Intuition becoming a tank role ability

Thinking mere existence is proof of design intent is a very narrow-minded way of looking at it. You gotta look at more than just the jobs. Look at the content and what the design intent for that is supposed to be. By process of elimination, dark knight becomes the odd one out, the ugly duck, the black sheep. Even the healer main turned picto main is able to admit that dark knight is not the balanced design by saying he thinks the balance is somewhere between paladin and gunbreaker, and like I said, if that's the case, then dark knight still falls excessively short of that mark.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Thinking dark knight is balanced is wishful thinking. Dungeons are designed to be a pushover.

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Again, no one said Dark Knight's defensive power is balanced against that of other tanks, let alone in dungeons.

There is a difference between in-role balance and between-role balance.

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Thinking mere existence is proof of design intent is a very narrow-minded way of looking at it.

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It was your take:

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Because warrior is the strongest tank defensively, and if that is considered balanced by the devs, then there is no valid reason for dark knight to continue lacking self sustain at all levels of play.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Unhealthy for the game:
- Raw Intuition becoming a tank role ability

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Also from your post, by name and by insistence that all should be scaled up to Warrior-even-in-dungeons, given that so much of Warrior's excess strength there comes from the healing-per-enemy-hit of Raw Intuition.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Again, no one said Dark Knight's defensive power is balanced against that of other tanks, let alone in dungeons.

There is a difference between in-role balance and between-role balance.


It was your take:

Also from your post, by name and by insistence that all should be scaled up to Warrior-even-in-dungeons, given that so much of Warrior's excess strength there comes from the healing-per-enemy-hit of Raw Intuition.

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That if statement and saying "mere existence is proof of design intent" are not the same things. And it's not a take, it's a factually based statement. The things I left out should be automatically assumed to be implied, such as the fact that dungeons are designed to be a pushover, which further emphasizes that warrior is the intended balance, not the other way around. I don't take existence as mere proof of design intent. I have watched as dark knight gets continually ignored. Experience trumps opinion here. The Living Dead change gave us hope in 6.2. Square Enix needs to stop hanging our hope on a cliffhanger.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...which you preceded to treat as serious so you could critique it and attempt to inform others on something they'd already shown comprehension of pages earlier...

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Oh wow, I had not actually considered that. Is Anjou just angry because they do not know the "monkey paw" thing? Did they think I was being serious? :')

(Plus I mean, if you know the history of DRK changes if not as if monkey's paw is a rare take, we needed TBN to improve once all the other tanks got superior short-CDs, and what did we get? Oblation. Sigh.)

Acting like you need all tanks to be at WAR level for dungeons to be a pushover just shows personal bias in skill level not intention of the job designers

My bar for dungeons being a pushover on a tank sits somewhere between DRK and GNB so by my standards GNB is somewhere a little too strong and PLD and WAR are just pointlessly excessively powerful

There is no objectivity to your point by this logic

People constantly trying to push for tanks to be all roles at once are a threat to every other role by definition. Please leave us alone and keep in your lane. Your role is already breaking half the boundaries of the game as it currently stands. DRK is the only remaining tank with a more moderate balance there and allowing a modicum of skill expression in comparison. Beats me why people would get rid of this.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Acting like you need all tanks to be at WAR level for dungeons to be a pushover just shows personal bias in skill level not intention of the job designers

My bar for dungeons being a pushover on a tank sits somewhere between DRK and GNB so by my standards GNB is somewhere a little too strong and PLD and WAR are just pointlessly excessively powerful

There is no objectivity to your point by this logic

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That is a blatant twisting of my words to arrive at a very misguided conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Valence

People constantly trying to push for tanks to be all roles at once are a threat to every other role by definition. Please leave us alone and keep in your lane. Your role is already breaking half the boundaries of the game as it currently stands. DRK is the only remaining tank with a more moderate balance there and allowing a modicum of skill expression in comparison. Beats me why people would get rid of this.

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You both are afraid of something nobody has suggested here and completely overdramatizing and demonizing anything that's a dark knight suggestion out of that fear like a political activist.

Please explain how Dark Mind getting the Addle treatment would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how a regen on Oblation would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Dark Missionary being usable in UCOB and UWU would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Raw Intuition makes you irrelevant in dungeons when half of the warriors you come across don't even know they have this ability, much less how to use it.

Sorry Anjou, but it's not realistic to balance everything for your level of play. Balance has to assume at least a modicum of player performance, some would suggest only balancing for the top end but there's a valid argument to be made to aim somewhere between that and the average instead, or the lower end of the top end content players in MMOs (usually).

Oh so now we are arguing the angle of “anything can be justified because people are bad enough that they won’t even know what it does”

I hear-by propose that SCH gets given “nuke”, if the SCH presses it the dungeon just ends in victory. This is balanced because and I quote “half the x you come across don’t even know they have this ability, much less how to use it”

Please vote to make me new lead job designer and will make all your dreams come true

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Please explain how Dark Mind getting the Addle treatment would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how a regen on Oblation would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Dark Missionary being usable in UCOB and UWU would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Raw Intuition makes you irrelevant in dungeons when half of the warriors you come across don't even know they have this ability, much less how to use it.

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Can you try to make a point that doesn't involve "bad players" as a counter argument? Literally every argument can be nullified using "but bad players" because bad players are agnostic to designing power level, they are a complete anomaly and should not be considered for it.

If you want your argument to be taken seriously, at least go with semi-competent players if not experienced, because stuff like Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting paired with the other tools WAR has literally invalidates the need for healers if the skill level of 1 WAR + 3 DPS ranges anywhere from semi-competent to experienced.

I agree with you that stuff like Dark Mind/Missionary getting improvements would be fine or giving Oblation a little bit extra "anything" (doesn't have to be a regen), but that is most likely not what Valence was arguing for here.

The way I understood it is that Valence does not want another tank to be as absurdly tanky and high in sustain like Warrior (and Paladin), which is (are) the clear outlier here. I.e. not something to the power level of Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, at least not without something to use that excess HP for.

So quite frankly, you are overreacting to him.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Can you try to make a point that doesn't involve "bad players" as a counter argument? Literally every argument can be nullified using "but bad players" because bad players are agnostic to designing power level, they are a complete anomaly and should not be considered for it.

If you want your argument to be taken seriously, at least go with semi-competent players if not experienced, because stuff like Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting paired with the other tools WAR has literally invalidates the need for healers if the skill level of 1 WAR + 3 DPS ranges anywhere from semi-competent to experienced.

I agree with you that stuff like Dark Mind/Missionary getting improvements would be fine or giving Oblation a little bit extra "anything" (doesn't have to be a regen), but that is most likely not what Valence was arguing for here.

The way I understood it is that Valence does not want another tank to be as absurdly tanky and high in sustain like Warrior (and Paladin), which is (are) the clear outlier here. I.e. not something to the power level of Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, at least not without something to use that excess HP for.

So quite frankly, you are overreacting to him.

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I'm not overreacting. And ignoring the skill level of other players is not an excuse to continue fearmongering about a job just so that the devs ignore a majority that's been pleading for 5+ years to fix certain inadequacies. I could have just as easily used the phrase "less skilled" but the point still stands. They are paranoid because Xenos put out yet another video from the media tour of him doing a dungeon without a healer. Warrior has been able to do that since ARR. That's nothing new, and it certainly doesn't make their role irrelevant. You still need healers, especially for prog. Just cause TOP was cleared without a healer doesn't mean your average joe is gonna be able to do that.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

I'm not overreacting. And ignoring the skill level of other players is not an excuse to continue fearmongering about a job just so that the devs ignore a majority that's been pleading for 5+ years to fix certain inadequacies. I could have just as easily used the phrase "less skilled" but the point still stands. They are paranoid because Xenos put out yet another video from the media tour of him doing a dungeon without a healer. Warrior has been able to do that since ARR. That's nothing new, and it certainly doesn't make their role irrelevant. You still need healers, especially for prog. Just cause TOP was cleared without a healer doesn't mean your average joe is gonna be able to do that.

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Highlighted the critical points of your response.

1.) If you do not establish a minimum baseline of skill requirement before considering balance adjustments, then any skill is not strong enough because players that aren't skilled enough will not press them. You literally "have to" cut out bad / weak / lesser skilled /whatever-you-want-to-call-it players out of the equation for balancing jobs and actions because it is semi-competent to experienced players that will break your game - and in that area, experienced healers are being bored to death as strats become solved and content becomes routine.

It is no longer fearmongering at this point and just genuine concern - Warrior is literally too strong because the healing of Bloodwhetting/Raw Intuition is per-target rather than per-action like it should be (see PLD's Holy Circle, Confiteor and Blade combo). For dungeon content, there is absolutely nothing balanced about having a Hallowed Ground every 25 seconds for 8-10s (heal timings & amount accounted for) on top of having 1200 + 1000 heal potency on Equilibrium, 15% HP shield + 300p heal + 500p regen on Shake it Off, another 1500p total regen on Damnation (Vengeance II) as well as 20% max HP healing and a +20% recovery boost on Thrill with another +15% on Rampart. And if you do end up having a gap, you can Holmgang for 10 seconds as well. All of this is ignoring the regular mitigation options to boot.

So moving the sustain of any tank up to Warrior - rather than throwing Warrior down to not be broken, which is as fixable as just making Bloodwhetting trigger only once per weaponskill (or making additional targets hit only scale for 100-150p heals) - is a suggestion quite obviously met with ire, by MORE than just tanks because healers are part of this equation.



2.) The Xenos vid is old, but it proves a point. And frankly it isn't limited to high-end raiders to pull this off either. And since you are saying it - just because Warrior has been able to do it since ARR (stormblood WAR would beg to differ) does not mean that this should've been a thing nor should it continue be a thing. It's okay for Warrior and other tanks to be strong, but Warrior literally invalidates the need for a healer in dungeons at Lv56+ (for self heals) and Lv76+ (for party heals).

For reminder, these are things healers are usually known for and you should know that given you have all tanks and healers at Lv100:

- single-target healing, either the tank or spot-healing DPS [Warrior completely negates the need for this]
- AOE healing against raidwide damage, especially when in high frequency [between Nascent Flash & Shake it Off, WAR can handle dungeon AOE as long as the other 3 dps are competent]
- mitigation of incoming damage when available (ST, AOE) [guess what WAR is *really* good at]
- Esuna on important debuffs [underutilized in dungeons]
- doing damage [like everyone else]
- dealing with mistakes made by party members [the first and only thing Healers are truly useful for in dungeons]

Take skill issue out of the equation and healing becomes boring with a WAR around. Plain and simple. Mind you, Warrior's brokenness scales down in savage and ultimate raids (except for Holmgang, but different topic), so this argument is about dungeons.

As for that TOP example you threw in at the end - yes, it is unbelievably difficult to do, requires two Paladins and two Red Mages with a combined 130ish Clemency & Vercure casts and Cover cheesing Magic Number, a WAR to round it out and 3 other dps with AOE healing available and it is obviously significantly easier to do with a standard 224 composition, but the problem here isn't Warrior nor is it Healer irrelevance, it is the fact that this was even possible in the first place, which is a design failure of not putting in frequent enough healing requirements that mandates having dedicated healers. Principle is the issue here.

Honestly DRK just needs help for dungeon content. Especially dungeons below lvl 70. This can be fixed by unpairing CS from AD and making AD cost 3k mana with a 5s recast timer and adding a 200 potency heal to weapon abilities that consume blood.

DRK bandaide is easy, just devs dont really care about DRK because it does the most damage so its considered fine. I think the biggest problem that will come with DRK is criterion. What incentive do DRK players have to do criterion other than suffer through a dungeon and put the healer through more stress.

When criterion releases it will be same as last time where if you are not playing as a WAR or PLD then you are grefing the group.

People saying that WAR was able to solo heal/tank dungeons back in ARR and HW is completely misleading. Blodobath was on 90s cd, so yeah, perhaps it was, but one pull out of two at best, and only for 20s. Unless you were ready to sit and twiddle your thumbs until bloodbath was back. This is disingenuous at this point.

To top it off, ARR/HW Bloodbath WAR and ShB Nascent WAR, while kinda broken already in my opinion, still required a modicum of skill expression since the self heal was directly tied to damage, so to the skills used under the effect (which also limited the power of Nascent WAR outside of its burst window every 60s). It's just not comparable, but it has certainly crept dramatically.

Funnily enough DRK was better than WAR at tanking with the old Dark Arts Abyssal spamm.

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Originally Posted by Valence

People saying that WAR was able to solo heal/tank dungeons back in ARR and HW is completely misleading. Bloodbath was on 90s cd, so yeah, perhaps it was, but one pull out of two at best, and only for 20s. Unless you were ready to sit and twiddle your thumbs until bloodbath was back. This is disingenuous at this point.

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30s, due to the Marauder trait. And, Inner Beast healed for 900 potency back then.

But yes, though I did solo heal-tank some dungeons even before we had complete overgeared them, it was tough going and consistently slower than using mass-SMNs/SCHs or more standard comps of the time (e.g., BLM WHM BRD PLD). At least until so hugely overgeared that melee DPS splitting threat, too, could easily tank said dungeons... which I also did from time to time when tanks had a tantrum or d/c.

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Funnily enough DRK was better than WAR at tanking with the old Dark Arts Abyssal spam.

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Ehhh... it depended on the amount of incoming damage. You could only get out 2 DA-ADs per full MP bar, after all, since AD itself cost quite a bit atop DA's 25% of your base MP. And in Stormblood... both were just gods during their full CDs. Delirium-BW spam gave temporarily infinite MP and, well, Warrior was Warrior (not quite so OP during CDs, unless really leveraging how broken Holmgang was by comparison even then, but probably putting slightly out greater total Mit+Healing overall). Honestly, though, all three tanks felt distinctly powerful back then even without needing the likes of absurd passive eHP.

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To top it off, ARR/HW Bloodbath WAR and ShB Nascent WAR, while kinda broken already in my opinion, still required a modicum of skill expression since the self heal was directly tied to damage

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And that's the key part imo. Not only did the IR/BW change hurt Warrior balance; worse, it hurt Warrior engagement and theme.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Highlighted the critical points of your response.
Take skill issue out of the equation and healing becomes boring with a WAR around. Plain and simple. Mind you, Warrior's brokenness scales down in savage and ultimate raids (except for Holmgang, but different topic), so this argument is about dungeons.

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Dungeons is where DRK is lacking the most, so yes, this argument really boils down to that in the first place. Too many players overestimate their own skill level, and this in turn makes it underestimated how many players have skill issues, which is why I fail to see how it isn't fearmongering when these healer mains come here to the tank forum with the sole purpose of defending what they should know by now to be terrible design flaws. Is it boring for the experienced player? For some it is, but not all. The experienced player is far outnumbered by the inexperienced, and that gets proven every time I solo queue for roulettes. It is the inexperienced players that help make plays like soloing the dungeon boss from 60% be a skill expression, even if you are doing this as a warrior. Which further proves how much of a pushover dungeons are designed to be. Experience tells me there's probably a 30% to 70% divide of experienced players to inexperienced, and around 60% of both groups wanting DRK to receive at least some kind of defensive buff. So you just want around 70% of the player base to be completely invalidated by nerfing warrior into the ground instead of buffing DRK? I'm sorry but anyone who wants that has lost the plot.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Honestly DRK just needs help for dungeon content. Especially dungeons below lvl 70.

DRK bandaide is easy, just devs dont really care about DRK because it does the most damage so its considered fine. I think the biggest problem that will come with DRK is criterion. What incentive do DRK players have to do criterion other than suffer through a dungeon and put the healer through more stress.

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Criterion definitely makes the dark knight issues be glaring and in your face, cause they often aren't even allowed into the party finders I've seen for criterion. I haven't even attempted criterion since the first one, because of the lack of rewards. But, yes, the fix for dark knight is quite easy to do, and doesn't really even require new abilities added to it. Just minor fixes to what's already there.

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Originally Posted by Valence

It's just not comparable, but it has certainly crept dramatically.

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Dark knight wasn't even around in ARR. Honestly, if players like you had the reigns of this, we'd probably still have TP and warrior wouldn't even exist anymore. What's disingenuous is saying it's not comparable while at the same time still claiming that the healer role is being crept on. The main point is what you're fearmongering about has been possible since ARR, which means you are beating a dead horse for the sake of defending design flaws.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Dark knight wasn't even around in ARR.

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This has got to be trolling. There is no separate mention of ARR in the post you quoted. There is "ARR and HW" and "ARR/HW and ShB".

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Honestly, if players like you had the reigns of this, we'd probably still have TP and warrior wouldn't even exist anymore.

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...It has nothing to do with TP. Val simply noted the difference in skill expression available between something that actually scales with your surrounding damage and something that does not.

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The main point is what you're fearmongering about has been possible since ARR

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That, though, is false by any useful measurement. No-healer WAR runs back then were scarcely any more practical than taking 6 melee non-jobs to a raid to cycle Perfect Dodge or using BLMs to tank via old Mana Wall. Now, skipping the healer to have Warrior deal with everything... is not only decently common but frequently optimal.

_____________

If your position on tank balance is somehow serious, it seems to come down to this simple crux: to (A) screw over any and all inter-role balance in order to make dungeon tanking foolproof enough for your very subjective preference, or to (B)... not do that, and instead be mindful of both in-role and inter-role balance.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

which is why I fail to see how it isn't fearmongering when these healer mains come here to the tank forum with the sole purpose of defending what they should know by now to be terrible design flaws.

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because as shocking as it is to explain to someone who apparently opposes one man army tank design people who have a shred of competence in this game don’t particularly like having healers made irrelevant and tanks being made unable to die. The real point that nobody can understand is why tank mains still seem to cling to this weird belief that their job changes occur in a vacuum

If you advocate for every tank to be given raw intuition that is just as much (if not more so) a healer balance issue than it is a tank balance issue. You don’t see people on the healer forums going “why isn’t WHM’s holy stun permanent, it would give a nice strong niche to WHM who struggles in dungeon healing compared to the shields”. You know why people don’t say that; because that sort of decision is just as much a tank balance issue as it is a healer one because that decision would invalidate the tank

People don’t have to “irrationally fear monger” as you put it that tanks are overtaking the healer role, they’ve damn already done it since EW since with the advent of EW they removed skill expression from tank sustain, which is completely different to ARR WAR HW/SB DRK or ShB WAR

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

because as shocking as it is to explain to someone who apparently opposes one man army tank design people who have a shred of competence in this game don’t particularly like having healers made irrelevant and tanks being made unable to die. The real point that nobody can understand is why tank mains still seem to cling to this weird belief that their job changes occur in a vacuum

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You can really notice how Anjou looks at things from their own level of (lacking) skill, and hence assumes everyone else to be just as bad. :')

Which isn't exactly fair, anyways. I dislike only balancing for the top end as much as the next person, but I also feel balancing for the lowest common denominator is wrong. As you say, healers need some relevance beyond spamming 1 nuke and keeping 1 DoT up. DRKs and GNBs need some relevant beyond "budget tanks", especially now that GNB lost their identity.

It's much easier to state what really needs to happen, and see DRK reworks - in particular because we got some useful buffs, but they further homogenize tanks - as part of an overall shift of role interdependency:

* Tanks need to take significantly more damage, both against groups (but less so) and in particular against single targets and bosses (and we're talking 3x-4x the current damage intake here!). This not only implements a need for active healing, but more importantly also makes tank-defenses non-trivial and means there's player skill expression in mitigating auto-attacks.
* On the "other side", emnity needs to once again be non-trivial, so that tank skill can be expressed in lifting the "ceiling" of how much damage DPS can even do. Tanks should be less about optimal DPS and more optimal emnity in raids, and as a result emnity generation should not rely (solely) on damage dealt. For example if Warrior keeps their insane self-healing, maybe make it so that their tank stance mostly massively boosts emnity from healing, hence they directly feed their own emnity level with it, too.
* And likewise, between-job balance inside tanks needs a good hard look after this overall balance is done. Strong dehomogenization would be good, but is difficult to even judge while a) everything is so binary, either it kills you it is ignorable and b) Warrior has no downsides to balance their upsides.

Also I'm not sure how valid arguing with Anjou even is. They have a strong troll-flavor, putting out nothing but a consistently weird message that is completely disconnected from how the game actually plays.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

Dark knight wasn't even around in ARR. Honestly, if players like you had the reigns of this, we'd probably still have TP and warrior wouldn't even exist anymore. What's disingenuous is saying it's not comparable while at the same time still claiming that the healer role is being crept on. The main point is what you're fearmongering about has been possible since ARR, which means you are beating a dead horse for the sake of defending design flaws.

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Did you miss the mention of HW in "ARR/HW" or are you trying to dig your grave even further than this trainwreck of a thread has been for you so far?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Did you miss the mention of HW in "ARR/HW" or are you trying to dig your grave even further than this trainwreck of a thread has been for you so far?

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The only train wreck here is fearmongers like you because 7.1 brought most of the changes requested here, so I was right about how weak the job is defensively. As I predicted would happen, it would eventually get addressed, it was just a matter of when.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

The only train wreck here is fearmongers like you because 7.1 brought most of the changes requested here, so I was right about how weak the job is defensively. As I predicted would happen, it would eventually get addressed, it was just a matter of when.

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I need to find that “look boyo he won his own made up argument” picture because literally nobody was arguing against the type of changes that they actually did

People are arguing against

1) your insistence that shields aren’t mitigation
2) that WAR simply existing in its current form implies it’s balanced or an intended balance point but DRK isn’t for exactly the same reason
3) from 2 that somehow this involves every tank having raw initiation is remotely a balanced balance point because you refuse to consider healers in your balance considerations because apparently some people being bad enough to not understand their CD’s is balance enough for healers

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I need to find that “look boyo he won his own made up argument” picture because literally nobody was arguing against the type of changes that they actually did

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Yeah that's such a deranged take. Person arguing against all the DRKs wanting buffs and wasting time charging windmills now saying they alone asked for buffs and cleary Yoshi P has a direct phone line to them or something. I dunno. Just put Anjou on ignore, did that months ago, works nicely.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I need to find that “look boyo he won his own made up argument” picture because literally nobody was arguing against the type of changes that they actually did

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You still can't accept reality despite a balance patch that should have opened your eyes to it. The rest of your comment isn't even worth mentioning here cause you are beyond proven to be a fearmonger thanks to the patch yoinking away, in your own words, "The last semblance of tank balance and making healers completely irrelevant by dark knight receiving more self healing than it already has." Please go do some self reflection. The majority have spoken and Square Enix adjusted the game accordingly. You lost your delusional fight of defending terrible design just for the sake of something being "unique."

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah that's such a deranged take. Person arguing against all the DRKs wanting buffs and wasting time charging windmills now saying they alone asked for buffs and cleary Yoshi P has a direct phone line to them or something. I dunno. Just put Anjou on ignore, did that months ago, works nicely.

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And take this manchild who still can't grown their brain thanks to that coffee table encounter with you for that look in the mirror

Okay so we all agree that DRK is well balanced now and thus is a balance point the devs clearly intend, this means the “gives every tank raw intuition makes no sense”

PERFECT

My crusade to nerf WAR down to DRK’s level continues

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay so we all agree that DRK is well balanced now and thus is a balance point the devs clearly intend, this means the “gives every tank raw intuition makes no sense”

PERFECT

My crusade to nerf WAR down to DRK’s level continues

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Yet your crusade isn't to nerf WAR down to Drk's level it's to nerf all tanks to Drk's level.

Gotta say though they didn't even add sustain in a good way to DRK, they just slapped on 500 potency to a random ogcd attack cooldown, made your AOE heal bigger (but still on a minute and if you were pulling big this doesn't make much of a difference).

Aurora didn't need a random buff though Gunbreakers sustain was already really good, with the upside not being mostly tied to your rotation unlike paladins.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

You still can't accept reality despite a balance patch that should have opened your eyes to it. The rest of your comment isn't even worth mentioning here cause you are beyond proven to be a fearmonger thanks to the patch yoinking away, in your own words, "The last semblance of tank balance and making healers completely irrelevant by dark knight receiving more self healing than it already has." Please go do some self reflection. The majority have spoken and Square Enix adjusted the game accordingly. You lost your delusional fight of defending terrible design just for the sake of something being "unique."

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It's been like this for awhile with this boyo among others, its the same thing with people actually believing WAR is gonna get nerfed, then it doesn't despite me saying since EW it ain't happening and people get all surprised pikachu face over it. And this patch hasn't been any exception either~.
Sadly they'll keep continuing to try to go against the current game design of actually standardizing jobs to be in line with each other without their "unique benefits"(dying is not in fact a benefit, people get so weird about Living Dead). If a job being "unique" makes it not fun, then expect it to finally shift over and be shocked that more people will enjoy a DRK that can actually mitigate good versus the old one.
Happy 7.1. Bloodwhetting supremacy~.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

It's been like this for awhile with this boyo among others, its the same thing with people actually believing WAR is gonna get nerfed, then it doesn't despite me saying since EW it ain't happening and people get all surprised pikachu face over it. And this patch hasn't been any exception either~.

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Believing something should happen =/= Believing it will happen.

That's no less the case than someone blowing their... champaign... each time their particular overpowered job or role gets one more overpowered tool... tends not to equate to giving a damn about its game's broader health.

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be shocked that more people will enjoy a DRK that can actually mitigate good versus the old one.

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No one will ever be shocked at people liking to be buffed, especially if not already well in the lead. They would, however, probably be shocked if a majority of people realized that buffs to some, unless their recipients were underpowered, can only ever be relative nerfs to everyone else or to the content itself.

No one --literally no one-- argued against buffing jobs less powerful than their competition in role if the remainder of said role were to remain at the given power level or maintain the latest trend therein.

There was merely a stated preference that, rather than having to...

1. buff every other tank to the best among tanks
2. buff every other role to the best among all roles (tanks), and then
3. buff content as to not be a pushover joke (as would otherwise be for the worse to those who actually enjoy content/challenge instead of merely its rewards)...

...we would instead simply nerf the singular outlier, saving us 95% of the work and risk of worsened balance in the interim.

Right now, that overpowered outlier among roles is tanks. The overpowered outlier among tanks is Warrior, even if only greatly so in certain situations -- and those coming only from oversights that worsened Warrior gameplay and theme for virtually every veteran Warrior who actually cared about gameplay or theme (as opposed to just... being OP).

(Even in that limitation, though, Warrior essentially precludes entire content types in itself, such as Savage dungeons not in the spread-out everything's-a-miniboss model, since it'd be so damn obligatory for it under its present relevant ease-of-power-over-gameplay mechanics.)

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If a job being "unique" makes it not fun

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You're again conflating wildly different ideas. No one suggested that DRK being uniquely bad would make it fun, only that each job across a role having something unique to their gameplay would be more fun than their all playing increasingly the same, which is inevitably the outcome of insisting that tanks should only ever get stronger (equivalently: that DPS and Healers should only ever decrease in relative strength and/or the game should only ever be made easier [especially, for tanks]) but also that they should all be strong along similar lines.

(That is in turn what inevitably comes of focusing on differences in capacity over gameplay, especially when those capacities so strongly correspond simply to basic content types.)

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Happy 7.1. Bloodwhetting supremacy~.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-ap...G&w=1600&h=900

If only refractory periods could work in the abstract, too. Alas...

7.1 DRK changes won't save DRK being more hononigized with other tanks, it will make the job "work" that's it