The death of savage raiding and SE's lack of action

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Originally Posted by Aravell

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You both responded to a reply I made to someone else about the Healerstrike being ineffective (true lol)

And both tried to use numbers to justify how either A) a shortage exists or B) not that many healers actually are clearing and are just helping out, again as a response to me pointing out it was a fail.

Now suddenly when the large chunk of evidence we have does support that more healers are clearing compared to alot of other raid tiers, as far more players cleared week 1 than ever before, suddenly neither of you are referring to the healerstrike where my comments have always been about. Im not understanding why you are replying to me then as apparently you aren't disagreeing either.

So back to my point which you both have a hard time swallowing or following, the healerstrike was ineffective. More healers have cleared this tier and faster than before. Shortages have always existed, the healerstrike specifically hasn't really contributed any measureable decline in the presense of healers in PF.

That is seperate from Mr.Math's conclusion that the lack of healers overall in PF is exacerbated now that far more people have cleared.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You both responded to a reply I made to someone else about the Healerstrike being ineffective (true lol)

And both tried to use numbers to justify how either A) a shortage exists or B) not that many healers actually are clearing and are just helping out, again as a response to me pointing out it was a fail.

Now suddenly when the large chunk of evidence we have does support that more healers are clearing compared to alot of other raid tiers as far more players are completing the tier suddenly neither of you are referring to the healerstrike where my comments have always been about. Im not understanding why you are replying to me then as apparently you aren't disagreeing either.

So back to my point which you both have a hard time swallowing or following, the healerstrike was ineffective. More healers have cleared this tier and faster than before. Shortages have always existed, the healerstrike specifically hasn't really contributed any measureable decline in the presense of healers in PF.

That is seperate from Mr.Math's conclusion that the lack of healers overall in PF is exasperated now that far more people have cleared.

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You ever consider the fact that I was replying to a part of your comment that didn’t involve your mention of the healer strike

I opposed your weird use of anecdotes when you also tell other people they are meaningless and that an inbuilt healer shortage should be expected and not attempt be be corrected

I don’t care about whether you attach that to a failure of the healer strike or not. My point was the shortage is bad this tier and when you asked me to explain myself I did which caused to come up with a dumb nickname but never actually acknowledge my point

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Shortages have always existed

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This is completely going against the reality that Yoshi P himself acknowledged a healer shortage just 2 tiers ago and also begged people to give healers a try.

Are you saying that somehow the healer population surged from a population low enough for the producer to speak up about it to a healthy sustainable population in less than 2 years? To the point that there's no longer a concern about it?

There's a lot of evidence that you're overlooking to try and make your view of reality to become real. Like I said before, your view may be true for your own narrow circle, but that doesn't make it a hard fact, and cherrypicking your data doesn't change that.

Edit: Not sure why you have to make everything about the healerstrike, but you do what you like.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You ever consider the fact that I was replying to a part of your comment that didn’t involve your mention of the healer strike

I opposed your weird use of anecdotes when you also tell other people they are meaningless and that an inbuilt healer shortage should be expected and not attempt be be corrected

I don’t care about whether you attach that to a failure of the healer strike or not. My point was the shortage is bad this tier and when you asked me to explain myself I did which caused to come up with a dumb nickname but never actually acknowledge my point

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Mr.Math, I apologize I didn't give your comment the attention you wanted. Your point had no real bearing on the overall comment I made about the healerstrike being ineffective so you were decisively ignored since you can't stay on topic. If you are going to respond to my point about the healerstrike working specifically, I am waiting for you to provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it makes no sense for you to respond to a comment that had to deal with the healerstrike and was the response to someone who was referring to the healerstrike.

Your failure to follow context is still not my problem however.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Mr.Math, I apologize I didn't give your comment the attention you wanted. Your point had no real bearing on the overall comment I made about the healerstrike being ineffective so you were decisively ignored since you can't stay on topic. If you are going to respond to my point about the healerstrike working specifically, I am waiting for you to provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it makes no sense for you to respond to a comment that had to deal with the healerstrike and was the response to someone who was referring to the healerstrike.

Your failure to follow context is still not my problem however.

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Accuses people of being unable to stay on topic

Literally deflects to a point nobody besides themselves is making for 10 comments acting like everyone else is making the same point then when everyone agrees nobody is making that point besides you suddenly pivots to “well don’t reply to me if you aren’t making that point” despite arguing for said 10 posts as if anyone was actually making that point

Your choice of argument style is certainly………interesting. Being unable to pivot in a discussion isn’t a strength in an argument

Have a nice day this obviously isn’t going anywhere

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The reverse argument is also true though. The design team can create the best fight for healing possible and it would still be garbage because healers are designed like garbage

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So then what is good job healer design?

Are there other MMOs players can point to and say their healer job design is what a healer job should be and XYZ is why?

I can remember healing in WoW. What was in my DPS toolkit was rarely on my mind because I rarely had the spare GCDs to use it. Toss out a 24 second DoT then go back to healing. Maybe I'd get another spare GCD to toss out another DoT when the old one expired.

I think the healer job design is fine here. We can do what we need to as healers to help the party survive. We've got a few DPS tools to use if we get spare GCDs.

What isn't fine is encounter design. DPS use their GCDs to deal damage during an encounter. I want to be using my GCDs to heal damage taken. But most of the damage taken by a party overall is taken by a role that doesn't need healer support. That is where design goes bad.

Thing is, we can't have a constant dmg going pout because of this game's gcd system. WOW's gcd is 1 second. FFXIV is 2.5. Something like say, Anub'arak from WotLk, can't happened in 14 because of this slow gcd. The other issue is they don't want to pressure casuals at all.

Edit: Also as snow said, our healing gcds are much more expensive than our dmg gcds, outside of the tier 1 single target. Cure 2 is 1000, Medica is 900 and pretty weak, Medica 3 is 1000 and heals more than both cure 2 and medica, Cure 3 1500. Alsow tih the thin air nerf, there are much fewer instances of being able to spam cure 3.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So then what is good job healer design?

Are there other MMOs players can point to and say their healer job design is what a healer job should be and XYZ is why?

I can remember healing in WoW. What was in my DPS toolkit was rarely on my mind because I rarely had the spare GCDs to use it. Toss out a 24 second DoT then go back to healing. Maybe I'd get another spare GCD to toss out another DoT when the old one expired.

I think the healer job design is fine here. We can do what we need to as healers to help the party survive. We've got a few DPS tools to use if we get spare GCDs.

What isn't fine is encounter design. DPS use their GCDs to deal damage during an encounter. I want to be using my GCDs to heal damage taken. But most of the damage taken by a party overall is taken by a role that doesn't need healer support. That is where design goes bad.

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“If we get spare GCD’s”

That’s the core of the problem, it’s not “a few spare GCD’s”, it’s 95% of your total GCD’s. GCD healing is expensive on mana and mana regen is completely static. All you have to do is look up your kill time and you will know exactly how much mana you will have. So just bumping up damage to reduce damage GCD’s doesn’t fix fundamental flaws in the healer kit

I’d argue WOW goes too far in the other direction where they actually have well designed DPS kits but they don’t have enough time to use them

14’s healer designs are fundamentally at odds with the encounter but you can’t fix the encounter to bring healing back to the forefront with the current healer kits because once you overwhelm the oGCD’s your kit quickly collapses because we simply cannot sustain GCD spam because it’s so expensive mana wise

WOW is closer to the answer but it needs to be slowed down to 14’s combat speed opening up that extra space to actually using their more in depth rotations

Your final point also isn’t encounter design as a problem that’s a problem or tank design. It’s not encounter designs fault that tanks can heal the amount of damage they take that would be threatening if they didn’t have such ridiculous self healing. Bumping damage up doesn’t fundamentally change the fact that problem comes from tank imbalance, not lack of damage

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

Probably a good idea to specify your being sarcastic because the metrics suggest there are many clearing the raid tier very quickly...so I don't think healers need free stuff for selecting a role.

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I'm searching for the part of the post you quoted that asks for healers to have "free stuff", or the any request from the healer strike thread in excess of an actual, non-redundant, non-gutted role. ...Still not finding it...

I don't really agree with turning the game into WoW. If someone really enjoys attrition healing, there's already WoW for that, we don't need XIV to emulate the same model.

I'd personally rather see the HW model being re-adopted. A healthy balance of damage and healing with a heavier lean towards healing during prog and a lean towards damage in optimisation, but never leaning so far that it tips the balance.

We don't need to change the game drastically, just give us more of what we enjoyed in the past. Raid damage coming out more often than every 40 seconds would be a good start.

I raid on 4 chars, 1 in static and 3 on PF. I usually finish all 4 tours by Thursday at the latest. So excuse me when I say I don't think it's as death as you're claiming it to be.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I raid on 4 chars, 1 in static and 3 on PF. I usually finish all 4 tours by Thursday at the latest. So excuse me when I say I don't think it's as death as you're claiming it to be.

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Instant gratification generation problem.

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Originally Posted by AngryMothNoises

Healer main, would LOVE to do savage raiding but no one actually cares to teach people who have never done it before. That content is extremely gatekept from a lot of players.

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I wasn't taught by anyone either, and I can say I know NO raiders who has been taught by anyone else in games, and I know A LOT of raiders.

What is the problem of teaching yourself? It's not like this game is hard, and healer is the easiest role to play if I'm being honest. If you want to learn how to play your class, technically you should already have a pretty good idea how your job works by the time you hit 100, assuming you didn't use a level boot. Even if you don't, there are tons of guide out there that will teach you everything from how to gear to how to manage your CDs. And there are also tons of guide to teach you everything you need for each and every fights, you just have to watch them and learn. And then there is a bunch of learning party for you to apply what you had learnt.


So I'm not sure about what you are asking here? First you heal some dungeon. Then you heal some normal raid, then you heal a few EXs, and you'll be ready to heal savage within a week or two assuming you have put in some genuine and real effort to learn, at least for the first two floor. I'm pretty sure that's how 99% of the players learn how to raid, so why can't you?

Tell me which healer you want to play, and I'll link you some comprehensive guide for it.

Tell me which fight you're trying to learn, and I'll link you at least 3 videos that will teach you the inside out of it.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

This is completely going against the reality that Yoshi P himself acknowledged a healer shortage just 2 tiers ago and also begged people to give healers a try.

Are you saying that somehow the healer population surged from a population low enough for the producer to speak up about it to a healthy sustainable population in less than 2 years? To the point that there's no longer a concern about it?

There's a lot of evidence that you're overlooking to try and make your view of reality to become real. Like I said before, your view may be true for your own narrow circle, but that doesn't make it a hard fact, and cherrypicking your data doesn't change that.

Edit: Not sure why you have to make everything about the healerstrike, but you do what you like.

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You should go back to what my initial response was, who it was to and what I said if you are failing to understand why I keep returning to the point of healer strike being ineffective.
And yes, based off current numbers of clears week 1, I am indeed saying that more healers cleared this tier than previous savage raid tiers (least in the last expansion) for sure. Thus the logical conclusion is that the healer strike is ineffective but that is no surprise as largely it was a forum movement which doesn't have as much impact on PF.

Lastly, I will disagree with your supposition that I have claimed "there's no longer a concern" as I have never claimed the fact. To Mr.Maths singular unrelated point, a shortage of ALL support roles still exists. This is not due to the healer strike OR people thinking support roles are just garbage to play however, nothing specifically measurable that is in comparison. MMO players ,simply, on average, will choose to play DPS compared to Support roles. That's the logic every MMO game ever has shown us and for FFXIV an issue that has consistently remained almost it's entire raiding scene career.

Now if you want to say my view is subjective, that the healer strike specifically is a failure, then ok I guess?
But the numbers simply don't support the logic.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

You should go back to what my initial response was, who it was to and what I said if you are failing to understand why I keep returning to the point of healer strike being ineffective.
And yes, based off current numbers of clears week 1, I am indeed saying that more healers cleared this tier than previous savage raid tiers (least in the last expansion) for sure. Thus the logical conclusion is that the healer strike is ineffective but that is no surprise as largely it was a forum movement which doesn't have as much impact on PF.

Lastly, I will disagree with your supposition that I have claimed "there's no longer a concern" as I have never claimed the fact. To Mr.Maths singular unrelated point, a shortage of ALL support roles still exists. This is not due to the healer strike OR people thinking support roles are just garbage to play however, nothing specifically measurable that is in comparison. MMO players ,simply, on average, will choose to play DPS compared to Support roles. That's the logic every MMO game ever has shown us and for FFXIV an issue that has consistently remained almost it's entire raiding scene career.

Now if you want to say my view is subjective, that the healer strike specifically is a failure, then ok I guess?
But the numbers simply don't support the logic.

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Your last edit is Exactly why we are disagreeing with you

You are saying stuff about the healer strike because that’s the point you opened with that we replied to…….fair enough, we probably should have specifically mentioned we aren’t discussing the healer strike to give you a choice to bow out of the conversation or engage with our change of direction. However as it stands now you are connecting points to the healer strike we never made. We never said your view that the healer strike is a failure was subjective (hell as much as I championed it I don’t think the current shortage is caused by the strike at all, like I said I think it’s caused by larger clear rates bringing a baseline shortage to the forefront), we said that your view that there is nothing wrong with healers or nothing wrong with healers in PF is wrong because the listening posts are currently discussing problems with it endlessly

You aren’t wrong for being confused and annoyed we pivoted and dragged you along, but you are wrong for continuing to link points we made to the healer striker when we explicitly have told you like 5 times we aren’t talking about the healer strike

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

MMO players ,simply, on average, will choose to play DPS compared to Support roles. That's the logic every MMO game ever has shown us and for FFXIV an issue that has consistently remained almost it's entire raiding scene career.

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And yet the shortage has gotten so bad that multiple places are talking about it.

This isn't just a forum echo chamber thing. People who laughed about the healerstrike are also acknowledging a shortage, and it's still early in the tier, it can only get worse from here.

You keep saying that numbers support you, yet you don't have these numbers, no one here does, only SE themselves have the numbers.

You're also pointedly ignoring the fact that it's getting really bad on JP, the place where people think healers are greatly enjoyed. 2ch is complaining about bad healers and also lack of healers joining PFs. There's been documented instances of people offering millions of gil for a healer to help their PF. Why aren't people offering gil to tanks if they're equally as scarce?

Honestly, the thing I', looking forward to would be the next tier. With how easy this tier, I wouldn't be surprise if there's going to be some complacency as what happened before Abyssos and then when it's turn for things to be hitting much harder but that reminds to been seen for another 5 months.

Waiting for tanks and healers isn't anything new to DT. It isn't anything new to MMOs. It was the same in FF11 and it'll be the same in 8.0 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Your last edit is Exactly why we are disagreeing with you

You are saying stuff about the healer strike because that’s the point you opened with that we replied to…….fair enough, we probably should have specifically mentioned we aren’t discussing the healer strike to give you a choice to bow out of the conversation or engage with our change of direction. However as it stands now you are connecting points to the healer strike we never made. We never said your view that the healer strike is a failure was subjective (hell as much as I championed it I don’t think the current shortage is caused by the strike at all, like I said I think it’s caused by larger clear rates bringing a baseline shortage to the forefront), we said that your view that there is nothing wrong with healers or nothing wrong with healers in PF is wrong because the listening posts are currently discussing problems with it endlessly

You aren’t wrong for being confused and annoyed we pivoted and dragged you along, but you are wrong for continuing to link points we made to the healer striker when we explicitly have told you like 5 times we aren’t talking about the healer strike

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Mr.Math, we already know you couldn't follow the initial reply I made to someone being sarcastic about the Healer strike. You don't have to keep reminding us how much you struggle to follow the conversation, we get it. My point has always been about the healer strike being a failure. If you chose to respond to my comment on the healer strike, do so in the context of that if you care to debate my point. Since you have no context to stand on, suddenly I'm the one twisting anyone else's words, when mine have always been focused on one specific point. Go back to page 7, it's right there for you. You are the one who tried to come up with math to strawman away from my point which has always been

-THE HEALER STRIKE FAILED-

to talk about there is a healer shortage overall, which has literally ALWAYS been an issue.

Waiting for supports is normal, waiting for one support over the other in a meaningful difference across all types of content and being back up by the surveys is a problem

If supports being waited on is just universal and expected why don’t we have constant outcry’s at how long people are waiting for tanks

Hell most of the listening posts report tanks filling before even physical ranged

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Mr.Math, we already know you couldn't follow the initial reply I made to someone being sarcastic about the Healer strike. You don't have to keep reminding us how much you struggle to follow the conversation, we get it. My point has always been about the healer strike being a failure. If you chose to respond to my comment on the healer strike, do so in the context of that if you care to debate my point. Since you have no context to stand on, suddenly I'm the one twisting anyone else's words, when mine have always been focused on one specific point. Go back to page 7, it's right there for you. You are the one who tried to come up with math to strawman away from my point which has always been

-THE HEALER STRIKE FAILED-

to talk about there is a healer shortage overall.

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Okay fine the healer strike failed to affect PF queues, there is your precious win. Now if you’d kindly stop retroactively linking points we didn’t make to the healer strike that would be fantastic. Your last paragraph of the last comment is a blatant lie and caused by you being unable to realise that being unable to pivot in a 4 page argument isn’t a strength

Lotta people playing VPR and PCT. Not exclusive to ex-healers.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s the core of the problem, it’s not “a few spare GCD’s”, it’s 95% of your total GCD’s. GCD healing is expensive on mana and mana regen is completely static. All you have to do is look up your kill time and you will know exactly how much mana you will have. So just bumping up damage to reduce damage GCD’s doesn’t fix fundamental flaws in the healer kit

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My point was that I didn't have those spare GCDs in WoW because the encounter design team made sure there were players that needed to be healed.

We've got the excessive number of spare GCDs in FFXIV because the encounter design team doesn't give us that much to heal.

Again, that's encounter design and not job design.

I agree that SE hasn't done a good job of incorporating mana into the healer toolkit but what does that matter when there is little to heal unless someone screws up a mechanic? It's all going to go to damage regardless.

If we actually had things to heal throughout a fight, then mana allocation would be worth another look.

I also feel like a lot of healers don't understand the difference between instant cast and oGCD. As WHM I have Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Liturgy of the Bell and Assize for oGCDs.

I save Benediction as an "oh crap" button, usually using it after a party member gets raised. Tetragrammaton I use if I don't have a lily available for Solace. Liturgy I use if the party is going to take either multiple hits over a short period of time or we're going to take a large hit that that I know is coming and can time placement of Liturgy so it goes off just after. Assize I use on cooldown because free damage.

In other words, I don't have to use any of those that often because I'm getting lilies fast enough to have Solace and Rapture available. Those are not oGCDs. They're just instant casts.

I could choose to use them if I want just as I could choose to use any of my heals with a cast time. I don't need to because the party isn't taking damage often enough for me to use them. And first I'm going to use up my lilies to generate blood lilies for Misery. Maybe I put a Regen on the tank before a pull but it's usually pointless after that because the tank will heal themselves to full without help.

So most of my healing actions used are 2 actions that share a resource that has a 20 second recharge timer. Or in other words, I only have a need to cast a heal about 5 times every 60 seconds and 2 of those are going to be oGCDs more often than not. That leaves me with 22 free GCDs per minute for dealing damage because of a lack of better things to do.

The job design team could cut the potency of all those abilities in half so they're more in line with heals that have a cast time and I'd still have 17 free GCDs per minute.

They could switch around mana costs and I'd likely still have 17 free GCDs a minute because they're not going to take things to the point that poor mana management is going to cause a wipe. Even if they did, the answer is to stop dealing damage so that mana is conserved for when the healing will be needed (anyone else remember "wanding" to conserve/regen mana in WoW?).

I agree that tank sustain isn't an encounter design problem but a job design problem. But it's a tank job design problem, not a healer job design problem. SE could leave tanks as they are and still make healing more engaging by having encounters deal more party wide damage more frequently.

Again, I'm fine with the toolkit I've been given and I get a lot of use from it when in a duty with group of players that love standing in bad. What I want is that toolkit to be just as useful when I'm in a party of good players. There is a middle ground that can be reached through encounter design.

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Originally Posted by Sensui

Lotta people playing VPR and PCT. Not exclusive to ex-healers.

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And the shortage caused in EW when we had a new healer

Usually waiting for shield heals and physical ranged. Also waiting for non-WAR tanks.. I dunno, it's pretty ... normal? Nothing about it feels out of the expected. There are A LOT of PFs up, especially early in the week. Back to my post earlier in this thread. It's combination of things happening. A shortage of healers is not the root cause.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay fine the healer strike failed to affect PF queues, there is your precious win. Now if you’d kindly stop retroactively linking points we didn’t make to the healer strike that would be fantastic. Your last paragraph of the last comment is a blatant lie and caused by you being unable to realise that being unable to pivot in a 4 page argument isn’t a strength

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Cool, thanks. Now you can also kindly stop trying to strawman my point to prove something that I never argued against in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Waiting for supports is normal, waiting for one support over the other in a meaningful difference across all types of content and being back up by the surveys is a problem

If supports being waited on is just universal and expected why don’t we have constant outcry’s at how long people are waiting for tanks

Hell most of the listening posts report tanks filling before even physical ranged

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We have always had support role deficiency with maybe a slight lean towards healers being worse. We have always had outcries in game for both Healer and Tank. Phys Range also follows those two. I have been in PF (or pugs specifically) for a very long time (even before cross world PF), that's been the same since SB perhaps even before SB around a similar timeframe.
You just live under a rock or CLEARLY don't engage enough with PF.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Thing is, we can't have a constant dmg going pout because of this game's gcd system. WOW's gcd is 1 second. FFXIV is 2.5. Something like say, Anub'arak from WotLk, can't happened in 14 because of this slow gcd. The other issue is they don't want to pressure casuals at all.

Edit: Also as snow said, our healing gcds are much more expensive than our dmg gcds, outside of the tier 1 single target. Cure 2 is 1000, Medica is 900 and pretty weak, Medica 3 is 1000 and heals more than both cure 2 and medica, Cure 3 1500. Alsow tih the thin air nerf, there are much fewer instances of being able to spam cure 3.

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So it gets designed around the 2.5 GCD instead of the 1.5 GCD (I don't know if things have changed in WoW since I played but almost no one was stacking enough Haste to reach the 1 second GCD floor). Again, that's encounter design.

How often does the average WHM get into a situation where we're worried about our ability to spam Cure III (which would mostly go to waste considering it's hard to get a random group of players to understand when stacking up for healing is a very good idea)? I think I used it twice last week on M4N at the very end of the fight but then Liturgy came off cooldown and I got lilies back. If I had been solo healing the fight I would have needed to use it more but I wasn't.

The pressure argument is a poor one. If a player can use abilities 25 times per minute as a DPS, they can use abilities 25 times per minute as a healer. That's not where the pressure comes from, nor would reducing the number of casts possible per minute change the pressure.

How is someone supposed to learn how to heal when they're only placed situations where almost no healing is needed?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And the shortage caused in EW when we had a new healer

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Adding a new healing job doesn't mean non-healer players are suddenly going to be interested in healing.

The EW shortage was the same shortage that always has existed. Those who were willing to be healers were already healers. They had 4 choices instead of the previous 3 but that doesn't mean they were going to start playing healer 33% more often.

Most players are never going to be interested in healing (or even tanking for that matter) no matter how healing jobs are designed. There's a perception that healer and tank mistakes are in a spotlight since those are most likely to lead to a wipe in normal content. Most players don't want that spotlight to end up on them.

Honestly speaking, there's actually not enough information to say with 100% certainty whether or not there is a healer shortage. It's all just anecdotes against anecdotes.

But we do have some things that are facts:
- More people have been pointing out that PF is lacking healers recently.
- There's been a lot of screenshots of all the empty green slots in PF across multiple regions.
- There's been documented screenshots of people offering healers gil to help their party, and no one is offering tanks any gil to help their party.

That's all we really know about the current situation. SE is the only party with the actual numbers and we won't know about it unless Yoshi P chooses to address it in the upcoming LL.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

And yet the shortage has gotten so bad that multiple places are talking about it.

This isn't just a forum echo chamber thing. People who laughed about the healerstrike are also acknowledging a shortage, and it's still early in the tier, it can only get worse from here.

You keep saying that numbers support you, yet you don't have these numbers, no one here does, only SE themselves have the numbers.

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So there's a neat little thing called FFL (figure it out), which you can parse out how many people cleared (and uploaded) clears by the end of week 1.

Some of the data is as follows and has been confirmed on twitter/reddit by multiple users.

Week 1 Tier Clears

Arcadion: 950
Anabaseios: 288
Abyssos: 252
Asphodelos: 539
Eden Promise: 172
Eden's Gate: 313

(Eden Verse doesn't exist because FFL was down for Week 1)

Now keep in mind, this only includes loggers, and perhaps repeat clearers (on alts) so those uploads could be potentially included as well. But I assure you, that is rarer for Week 1 than not as most people hit a sort of burn out after the heavy prog and rarely jump back into PF that week (but not impossible on an alt). If we even remove 100 uploads from each column in each tier to account for this, there is still a decisive increase in the amount of clears of Arcadion compared to others. I imagine the LuckyBancho numbers (which read achievements on lodestone and due to be released within the next month or two) will confirm a big jump in overall clears.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

So there's a neat little thing called FFL (figure it out), which you can parse out how many people cleared (and uploaded) clears by the end of week 1.

Some of the data is as follows and has been confirmed on twitter/reddit by multiple users.

Week 1 Tier Clears

Arcadion: 950
Anabaseios: 288
Abyssos: 252
Asphodelos: 539
Eden Promise: 172
Eden's Gate: 313

(Eden Verse doesn't exist because FFL was down for Week 1)

Now keep in mind, this does not segment repeat loggers, so those uploads could be potentially included as well. But I assure you, that is rarer for Week 1 than not as most people hit a sort of burn out after the heavy prog and rarely jump back into PF that week. If we even remove 100 uploads from each column in each tier to account for this, there is still a decisive increase in the amount of clears of Arcadion compared to others. I imagine the LuckyBancho numbers (which read achievements on lodestone and due to be released within the next month or two) will confirm a big jump in overall clears.

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Okay now (without mentioning the healer strike as I am not and the person you replied you didn’t either), explain why this isn’t explained by square enix’s god awful balancing around pictomancer. You can see the first tier is always cleared at a higher rate and this had the added problem of the wonky PCT balancing completely deleting the DPS checks

I’ll go back to my maths (which again I’m not using to strawman any point about the healer strike), a higher tier clear rate exasperates baseline shortage issues which reveals a deeper shortage amongst healers than tanks which is a problem for healers (either tanks are doing something right or healers doing something wrong) tanks were the rarer role pre ShB so something flipped creating the current shortage distribution, that’s a problem with healer design

Savage always has built in “protection” from feeling shortages as there is always more people that want to clear savage than actually clear savage. When that number is closer the shortage gets worse

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay now (without mentioning the healer strike as I am not and the person you replied you didn’t either), explain why this isn’t explained by square enix’s god awful balancing around pictomancer. You can see the first tier is always cleared at a higher rate and this had the added problem of the wonky PCT balancing completely deleting the DPS checks

I’ll go back to my maths (which again I’m not using to strawman any point about the healer strike), a higher tier clear rate exasperates baseline shortage issues which reveals a deeper shortage amongst healers than tanks which is a problem for healers (either tanks are doing something right or healers doing something wrong) tanks were the rarer role pre ShB so something flipped creating the current shortage distribution, that’s a problem with healer design

Savage always has built in “protection” from feeling shortages as there is always more people that want to clear savage than actually clear savage. When that number is closer the shortage gets worse

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Ok focusing on your previous point, there is a likelihood that relative to the previous tiers, there is potentiality of a feeling of a bigger shortage than before because in the design of 2H, 2T and 4DPS and in relation to week to week (beyond week 1), we can safely assume that more DPS have obtained clears after week 1 compared to the same amount of Healers or Tanks in PF and we know this based off the fact that a heavy majority of the playerbase overall mains DPS roles. That's not anything out of the ordinary.

Something else we can pull though is still that many more tanks and healers entered the tier this time around. Now what we are seeing is a massive shift to PCT. It is the top DPS in terms of parses overall but it is not a specific exclusive reason as to why the clears are far higher than average (more than 3x on average). The core reason of why the tier has been cleared decisively quicker than others is because two specific things aligned, 1) The initial balancing of PCT which was very strong, and the XIV team admitting to not having enough time to adjust PCT AND rebalance classes AND rebalance the raid for DPS checks, so they basically brought the other jobs up to align with PCT without tuning the raid to the increased DPS.

We knew this, they said this. So by that, perhaps we can blame the initial overall issue on PCT but it's not like the job itself is driving these numbers to this degree. It's just the raid itself isn't accounting for the high DPS of all jobs.

But the second reason is actually the mechanics themselves. There is a surprising lack of hard body checks this tier. There are some positioning checks here and there but PF struggles the most with body checks, basically mechanics that if a certain amount of people aren't at point A when thing goes off, mechanic auto deletes everyone. All included DoTs for failed mechs this tier are easily GCD healed through. Something like the Pandemonium fight last tier did NOT allow this, which not only combined aggressive body checks with very short timing on mechanic overlap but overall way more 1 shots of groups of 3+ players.

Savage imo, hasn't ever had a protection from shortages. It's just that a lot more people entered the raid tier, and more of that new group are playing DPS over Healers and tanks. This has been the same issue every single tier though. There has never been a tier where by Week 6, Healers and Tanks were abound after reset day.
Most people in PF leave the raid scene after getting their bis.

As for Healer role having even lower numbers than tanks, it is the MOST unpopular role as always, especially in PF because it has the most responsibility compared to Tanks or DPS. It not only has to plan on it's mitigation but also sufficiently heal damage (both expected and unexpected adjustments), while also managing MP, while also doing DPS, while also doing mechanics/positioning. A healer death is far more costly to the success of a raid fight, even after everyone has gear. In PF, where the average unexpected events is the norm, a decent amount of Healer resources tend to be required to keep a run together. This is why when you see tiers that introduce body checks or aggressive DoT ticks with AoEs (ala tree boss) where GCD healing becomes alot more required, the Healer population tends to shrink and alot leave the scene. When the Healer checks are relatively manageable, the Healer pop goes back up but it's still a shortage. Not to mention, there are ALOT of greedy Healers in PF that would prefer to Glare then use a single GCD heal when it's clear its required to survive or top up for big damage. Thus, there is really no direct solution to the shortage of healers without perhaps changing the dynamic of the games design (and giving everyone more personal responsibility on there health management)

If you want to see more Healers in PF, you have to mitigate the responsibility requirement healers innately deal with. Otherwise, you can never fix any shortage issue on the role overall. You are not gonna convince DPS to Heal in mass and your best offer is more responsibility with everything in spades. That's a bad deal no one is really signing up for. It does not matter if you add more DPS options, or better utilize the Healer kit in raid.

There are options beyond still for SE to utilize like, job in need bonuses, that they can try to reward guaranteed drops for players willing to fill into deficient roles but not much beyond that and I wouldn't expect any MAJOR deterrents to shortages from even that.

I think this also has to do with gear, most people will get dps or tank gear first , and then you cant find a healer because they dont meet the item level requirement to join groups. I would join as a healer a lot more but i only got 711 ilvl , so i cant join most parties

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

If you want to see more Healers in PF, you have to mitigate the responsibility requirement healers innately deal with. Otherwise, you can never fix any shortage issue on the role overall. You are not gonna convince DPS to Heal in mass and your best offer is more responsibility with everything in spades. That's a bad deal no one is really signing up for. It does not matter if you add more DPS options, or better utilize the Healer kit in raid.

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And this here is the problem with the healer role.

You say the only way to bring more healers into PF is to reduce their responsibilities, but the people who chose to play healer have chosen to accept those responsibilities, and taking away responsibilities from them is unfavourable.

You already said that there's no way to convince a DPS player to pick up healing, so what's the point of catering to the exact opposite of what healers play the role for?

It's precisely the stripping of responsibilities that make veteran healers feel less important and causes them to quit. Yet your idea of fixing any healer shortage is to further increase how useless healers are. Do you not see a problem here?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I imagine the LuckyBancho numbers (which read achievements on lodestone and due to be released within the next month or two) will confirm a big jump in overall clears.

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LuckyBancho's data came out two weeks ago.

I would have been happy to be a Savage healer, but my static already had two healers, so I had to learn how to tank when my tanks both quit in 6.4. (P6-8 broke them. P10 almost broke me, so I get it.)

Guess what, everyone. You have the solution to the problem. IT'S CALLED LEARN TO HEAL SAVAGE JUST LIKE I LEARNED HOW TO TANK SAVAGE!

To that person who swapped over to the shield heal to fill in the gap, that's exactly what SE wants people to do. See a need and fill it in. Too many people aim for BiS on their favorite job and then quit for three months until the next tier comes out.

Better to go ahead and gear up two different roles, be able to flex wherever you need to, and make friends in the community.

We've got half our team able to flex - I can flex over to shield heals if we can get our backup tank. Our other shield healer can flex over to DNC if we're short a ranged DPS. A caster DPS can flex over to SAM. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I think this also has to do with gear, most people will get dps or tank gear first , and then you cant find a healer because they dont meet the item level requirement to join groups. I would join as a healer a lot more but i only got 711 ilvl , so i cant join most parties

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This is a very real problem, too. Sometimes if you send a PM to the person who is running the PF and say "hey I don't quite meet your iLVL but I cleared this already on DPS and I want to clear it on healer to help gear up too" they'll be happy to let you in.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I would have been happy to be a Savage healer, but my static already had two healers, so I had to learn how to tank when my tanks both quit in 6.4. (P6-8 broke them. P10 almost broke me, so I get it.)

Guess what, everyone. You have the solution to the problem. IT'S CALLED LEARN TO HEAL SAVAGE JUST LIKE I LEARNED HOW TO TANK SAVAGE!

To that person who swapped over to the shield heal to fill in the gap, that's exactly what SE wants people to do. See a need and fill it in. Too many people aim for BiS on their favorite job and then quit for three months until the next tier comes out.

Better to go ahead and gear up two different roles, be able to flex wherever you need to, and make friends in the community.

We've got half our team able to flex - I can flex over to shield heals if we can get our backup tank. Our other shield healer can flex over to DNC if we're short a ranged DPS. A caster DPS can flex over to SAM. Etc.

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Nobody is going to flex to a role they don’t like. In my static I as the shield healer can flex to the regen healer or to the PLD. The regen healer can flex to the shield healer or to MCH. Does me flexing to PLD or the regen healer flexing to MCH ever matter………..absolutely not because the other 6 members in our static would rather just not run then flex to healer because they all hate it

It’s perfectly valid to not want to flex to a role you don’t like, I certainly done blame people for not wanting to flex to healers. Who would want to, I stay on that static purely because they are my friends, I genuinely get zero enjoyment out of actually playing the healer in that static

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Originally Posted by Aravell

And this here is the problem with the healer role.

You say the only way to bring more healers into PF is to reduce their responsibilities, but the people who chose to play healer have chosen to accept those responsibilities, and taking away responsibilities from them is unfavourable.

You already said that there's no way to convince a DPS player to pick up healing, so what's the point of catering to the exact opposite of what healers play the role for?

It's precisely the stripping of responsibilities that make veteran healers feel less important and causes them to quit. Yet your idea of fixing any healer shortage is to further increase how useless healers are. Do you not see a problem here?

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While I can understand this sentiment, it's not going to matter really at all. If the Healers in question have left the role for what it is, there is nothing that SE can do that is going to convince ALL of those Healers to come back and also NOT affect the current players on the role and make the DEDICATED players of the Healer role in PF upset.
The healers that have already left the role for xyz reason are the minority however.

There is also the hilarious and duality point that people like Xenos made about the Healer strike being ironic and dumb. Healers say they want to "utilize their healing kits more" or "be the only ones with healing" but the moment they introduce a hard hitting mechanic that is an outright heal check and require the use of GCD and oGCD heals, tanks are begged to use Tank LB instead, which is an outright DPS loss overall.

And yeah the exact solution to bringing in Healers is unironically to offload Healer and mitigation responsibilities to other roles, easing the dependency on someone who jumps on the role to actually be that good to play it.

This is literally why more people have jumped into and stayed healing with Arcadion than before. It's almost as if people are surprised that trends exist.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

While I can understand this sentiment, it's not going to matter really at all. If the Healers in question have left the role for what it is, there is nothing that SE can do that is going to convince ALL of those Healers to come back and also NOT affect the current players on the role and make the DEDICATED players of the Healer role in PF upset.
The healers that have already left the role for xyz reason are the minority however.

There is also the hilarious and duality point that people like Xenos made about the Healer strike being ironic and dumb. Healers say they want to "utilize their healing kits more" or "be the only ones with healing" but the moment they introduce a hard hitting mechanic that is an outright heal check, tanks are begged to use Tank LB instead, which is an outright DPS loss overall.

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In a world with as much mitigation as we have everything is a mit check. A 10% mitigation on harrowing hell for 15 seconds is worth about 4 succors or 3 medica 2’s. The only thing you could make in this modern design that’s actually a healing check is a limitless un-mitigatable bleed. Because otherwise mitigation is always more useful as it’s basically extra eHP which is functionally pure healing by another name anyway

It’s infinitely frustrating especially as the shield healer to have the party not mitigate anything then blame the healers. When I did P10 in PF (big mistake) the DPS just used to not press any of their mits (the phys ranged was decent) then I’d get snarky comments like “oh we got a bad healer guess we have to use tank LB3”

In this current garbage design of mitigation being king healers have zero control but 100% of the blame. Actually let me control the party mitigation as the shield healer then you can blame me if we die, but if you won’t even press addle then I’m not pressing succor 5 times to cover your ass because you drifted xeno

(Note all uses of you here means proverbial you not specifically you as a poster)

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

Anyone's who's been savage raiding recently has definitely become familiar with the sight: Over a dozen parties filled with 0 healer's in sight. Spending your night sitting idle for 3 hours and only actually raiding for 2. Is this the premium experience you wanted us to enjoy this expansion YoshiP? Is this what's going to keep people paying your company's light bill (and pay them to develop terrible games that bomb on release)?

This isn't something that the players are doing wrong, it's something that SquareEnix and CBU3 have done wrong. They've repeatedly failed to address complaints from the playerbase over a significant period of time and now there is such a healer scarcity that people are outright quitting savage or planning to quit after this tier.

There's plenty of ways to incentivize healers to play high level content. Even something as simple as special mounts, minions, and achievements to bring out the achievement and mount hunters. SE has done nothing, and now this is the result. ig it's my fault for not enjoying the gameplay of healer either. Mea culpa Mr YoshiP sir I'll make sure I look forward to it harder.

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Or they can make leveling a healer ENGAGING! Seriously, I started as a healer and quit healing at the stormblood MSQ and switched to warrior! The less I got to heal the less fun I had as a healer. They need to fucking fix the healer problem by letting healers heal! I said this time and time again. Increase tank health, reduce mits and sustain, make mob damage high and sustained with some burst while keeping it at a level that won't strain healers but keep them engaged. Boom problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Guess what, everyone. You have the solution to the problem. IT'S CALLED LEARN TO HEAL SAVAGE JUST LIKE I LEARNED HOW TO TANK SAVAGE!

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yeah, no thanks.
I played healer until Anabaseios. then I tried the tier as Black Mage, realized just what I've been missing, and haven't gone back since.
If healer is fine, then there shouldn't be any trouble finding people to play the role.

Oh wait, there actually is trouble finding people to play the role. How 'bout that.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

In a world with as much mitigation as we have everything is a mit check. A 10% mitigation on harrowing hell for 15 seconds is worth about 4 succors or 3 medica 2’s. The only thing you could make in this modern design that’s actually a healing check is a limitless un-mitigatable bleed. Because otherwise mitigation is always more useful as it’s basically extra eHP which is functionally pure healing by another name anyway

It’s infinitely frustrating especially as the shield healer to have the party not mitigate anything then blame the healers. When I did P10 in PF (big mistake) the DPS just used to not press any of their mits (the phys ranged was decent) then I’d get snarky comments like “oh we got a bad healer guess we have to use tank LB3”

In this current garbage design of mitigation being king healers have zero control but 100% of the blame. Actually let me control the party mitigation as the shield healer then you can blame me if we die, but if you won’t even press addle then I’m not pressing succor 5 times to cover your ass because you drifted xeno

(Note all uses of you here means proverbial you not specifically you as a poster)

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Even stacking all your MIT available from both Healers at that moment (mind you two back to back mechanics have already exhausted some before it), you are not clearing Harrowing Hell with no GCD heals and no tank LB. Same thing can be said for M4S P2 opening currently.

As someone who mains mitigation healers in PF, generally I don't expect any mitigation from any DPS or Tank (in terms of Reprisal, Dark Missionary etc) as they get missed for different AoEs at random. I just focus on putting up a succor alongside any other oGCD mitigation I have and boom 9 out of 10 AoEs you can survive. Now realistically, some other mits can show up but I don't depend on them in PF. My entire kit is utilized on the regular.

Nothing changes the fact that the moment there is a definitive heal check people call for tank LB (doesn't even have to be a Lv3 LB) because it is the path of least resistance ultimately compared to depending on both healers having both all of their mit options and the willingness to GCD heal.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

If healer is fine, then there shouldn't be any trouble finding people to play the role.

Oh wait, there actually is trouble finding people to play the role. How 'bout that.

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Except it's delusional to think if you "fixed" Healers, suddenly the supply of said healers in PF will increase dramatically. Mind you, there is no clear consensus on what a "fix" entails that everyone seems to agree on, even the supporters of a "fix". Half are arguing for more DPS options, and the other half is arguing for more Heal spell usage. But neither are listening to the PF response which is asking for neither of those and asking for less Healer responsibility in raids. The fact that most of the people arguing for changes to Healer role are also the people that tend to play it in their statics, the only real place where you can see the monotonous gameplay of it after everything is optimized, further alludes that changes made would only benefit the minority of players that don't regularly engage with the healer role in PF whereas the majority which does in PF would diminish thus balancing the gains/losses or actually making it worse.

All to say, the game design at current does not support increasing damage options or healing options for Healer as we have hard proof of both cases hurting Healer supply in PF. The only answer atm, without redesigning all jobs and how encounters engage with healer responsibility, is to mitigate the overall responsibilities of the Healer role, making it easier for newcomers to get INTO the class to begin with. Sans any other system they can introduce to entice players. But considering the majority of players play DPS roles, you have to convince current DPS players to make the switch to Healer which in turn requires them to now be the focus of blame with way more responsibility. That's just not going to happen.