Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I follow a reallllllly simple concept. If a game isn't fun I *gasp* don't play it.
So instead of making an MMO where you have fun while you play you find it okay to have fun at the end?

I cannot even fathom how one would come to such a conclusion. It defies everything a game (made to entertain, mind you) stands for.
Would you buy a single player game that bores you to tears because the last 10% are finally worth being played?

Gamers really have changed then within the last decade and not for the better from my point of view.

---

The truth is that "end game" is a lie. For most people it is far from the end of the game, they're probably going to spend 70% of their time at level cap vs the journey of 1-49. That is why there is such an emphasis on the "end game" in MMOs.

I think it's funny how someone else can post this. but if Rokien did it we'd all punch him in the face because he's a douche.


anyway.

The only low-level content I think is really needed is story. Having a couple different story arcs would be ideal, then you could level a couple different jobs going through the story. or maybe have more class story quests.

A couple of low level, level capped instances would be awesome. I'd love toto-rak if it was capped. but it's not so it's basically a 'lets farm GC seals'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

And instead of speeding up the process we should reward MMO developers who actually care for the journey as much as the destination.

---

Kay, I don't see the conflict here.

SWTOR had a good pacing of leveling and it filled that leveling process full of content. The problem there was the endgame severely lacked and there was no feeling of reward of going back and helping those leveling multiple characters or just leveling slower.

As an alternative, we could implement a system where you opt out of a portion of your experience for some other reward, like more gil, GC seals, or something that would reward a player more in a different area, by leveling more slowly. Sort of an Opt Out for quick EXP gains.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onisake

I think it's funny how someone else can post this. but if Rokien did it we'd all punch him in the face because he's a douche.

---

Roiken is beligerant to anyone who disagrees with him. He also posts an insane number of threads purely out of the desire to garner attention and tumbs ups for striking popular ideas, which he then attempts to take personal credit for. He's earned his reputation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Roiken is beligerant to anyone who disagrees with him. He also posts an insane number of threads purely out of the desire to garner attention and tumbs ups for striking popular ideas, which he then attempts to take personal credit for. He's earned his reputation.

---

He also wants more grind and for it to last longer and require groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Roiken is beligerant to anyone who disagrees with him. He also posts an insane number of threads purely out of the desire to garner attention and tumbs ups for striking popular ideas, which he then attempts to take personal credit for. He's earned his reputation.

---

ehhh, having been on the internet for a number of years, i don't think he is beligerant as much as very strong in his opinions. seeing some people argue about nothing on 4chan has made me pretty immune to that kind of thing. He's a douche. we all know it. but some of the stuff he says i agree with, regardless of who started it and who he stole the idea from. if its something i like i'll throw my support behind it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

He also wants more grind and for it to last longer and require groups.

---

some people like grind. NA players generally don't. he's in the minority. let him ask for it. it's not like SE is going to add it in just to please him. they'll do it because the majority of the playerbase is asking for it, or it's the direction they want to take the game.

i do not mind requiring groups. as long as there is incentive for repeating. this is not a solo game. most content should require groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I, too, was surprised at FF XIII's sales numbers.

---

I don't recall FFXIII ever boring me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Seeming the basis of your argument hinges on this assumption that all classes level at the speed of Thamaturge, which could be considered a class balance issue, not a leveling speed issue. I'm going to have a much tougher time respecting the full of your statements. I will, however, go back and still break your reply down into the bullet points I wish to respond to.

---

Every Thaumaturge I've seen grinding for about the same number of hours has always leveled faster than other classes, especially before those classes get their AoE's. On top of that their spells hit harder than most abilities. Duoing Thaumaturges can be unbelievably fast -- in a 3-Fire to kill situation in a mob-dense area, you can tag up to 6 enemies with the lower damage caster going first; threat switches to second caster, and then back to third, playing ping-pong with the whole group of mobs. Many of these areas will even respawn a third to two thirds their population at once as soon as the last mob is slain. They get AoE-fest strategy of grinding from level 10 on.

If that were all my leveling experience was based on, I'd find it to have gone ridiculously fast. (If. This is not related to Jynx's opinion specifically seeing as I have no idea what other classes he has leveled.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velhart

I don't recall FFXIII ever boring me.

---

This is the XIV community, you're not allowed to:

A. Like FFXI
B. Like FFXIII
C. Like FFXIII-2
D. Say FFVII was bad in any way
E. Want the game to succeed by not being a clone of an MMO most people are tired of seeing re-released every few years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Every Thaumaturge I've seen grinding for about the same number of hours has always leveled faster than other classes, especially before they get their AoE's. On top of that their spells hit harder than most abilities. Duoing Thaumaturges can be unbelievably fast -- in a 3-Fire to kill situation in a mob-dense area, you can tag up to 6 enemies with the lower damage caster going first; threat switches to second caster, and then back to third, playing ping-pong with the whole group of mobs. Many of these areas will even respawn a third to two thirds their population at once as soon as the last mob is slain. They get AoE-fest strategy of grinding from level 10 on.

If that were all my leveling experience was based on, I'd find it to have gone ridiculously fast. (If. This is not related to Jynx's opinion specifically seeing as I have no idea what other classes he has leveled.)

---

That would then be a balance issue with Thaumaturges - which isn't uprising. I've been toting around the opinion that their AoE spread damage should get toned down a bit or have a greater expense for a while now. (Or even maybe an XP penalty if we're concerned with impact on raid performance.) It's the primary reason why grind parties and leveling is considered too fast, and if its broken down to more reasonable levels then we'll see a bit more balance.

There just does not seem to be enough magical resistance in this game. Tough mobs, or pinpoint enemies that are highly physically resitant, yeah, I can see a merit for having such a quick weakness to magic. But cannon fodder? I just feel like those should be able to reduce magical damage when they're in large groups, like how Garuda's Plumes are.

But that's just one idea and one opinion. I'm sure there are other solutions.


Elexia, your Hyperbole is showing, better tuck that in before someone actually believes you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

That would then be a balance issue with Thaumaturges - which isn't uprising. I've been toting around the opinion that their AoE spread damage should get toned down a bit or have a greater expense for a while now. (Or even maybe an XP penalty if we're concerned with impact on raid performance.) It's the primary reason why grind parties and leveling is considered too fast, and if its broken down to more reasonable levels then we'll see a bit more balance.

But that's just one idea and one opinion. I'm sure there are other solutions.

---

Well, it's a really simple solution that goes a long way. Just adding some spread-damage mechanics instead of duplicating it for all AoEs would go a long way in reducing the huge advantage of AoE attacks. Keep them strong, just not let them act like some manner of a industrial size woodchipper where mobs are brought it on conveyor belts.

That said, the next obvious connection becomes "what other purpose can AoE serve other than damage?", which then turns to the creation of more interesting mechanics, and upon seeing the large possibilities for more fun and tactical gameplay but also the work involved, SE may refuse to touch the subject at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That said, the next obvious connection becomes "what other purpose can AoE serve other than damage?", which then turns to the creation of more interesting mechanics, and upon seeing the large possibilities for more fun and tactical gameplay but also the work involved, SE may refuse to touch the subject at all.

---

I've always been a fan of AOE attacks having a secondary effect (frozen/burning ground) or even an area denial (firewall, stonewall, etc..)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

I've always been a fan of AOE attacks having a secondary effect (frozen/burning ground) or even an area denial (firewall, stonewall, etc..)

---

Same. More advanced uses of different types of attacks (linear, conical, circular, self, etc) having different, though more or less obvious when you think about it as if the fight were more real, uses within threat mechanics would be cool too.

Heck, if you just add armor penetration similarly to block value (chance and amount), where things like a linear strike from the same placement and side would be more likely to hit the penetrated area (higher 'chance') since they have the same trajectory, that already makes for quite a few more options.

Take the secondary effects of elemental holding (your frozen/burning ground having an actual amount of Ice or Fire magic attached), and allow it to be transferred, you could end up with something like a Mor Dhona boss (very physically resistant and only vulnerable to de-elementized magic, or all types of elements at once) surrounded by 6 mobs each with a different vulnerability -- hit each with a different type, then linearly drive the element mass on those into the boss, dealing magic damage to which he's vulnerable. Granted, that's just a tailored example. I wouldn't want anything that gimmicky, personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rutelor

This will be a short one. I long for a game in which the steps forward are packed with excitement and opportunities for fun. Not a rat-race to the end; the end being the only place where you will be considered someone by your fellow-players. End anti-newbie discrimination, make every level count. Slow down the pace of advancement. Smell the flowers. Struggle with difficult mobs at every level. Enter awesome events at every step.

This is actually more casual-player-friendly than accelerating and stultifying the game, so that almost anybody can get to the "fun-filled end."

End-obsessed game design fosters fascistic behavior in the community. Plus, it rewards the slacker that doesn't want a life, whereas it penalizes the player with the regular life. Making the advancement mechanics super-easy, the way the developers of this game sometimes seem to believe they should, does not improve the chances for anybody: The "Über" get to the end and get bored too early, the casuals never catch up, and are still discriminated.

Fill the world with one thousand Shposheas, only more complex and more attractive; make getting to level 10, 15, 20, 30 real challenges away from the repetitive levequests, and gratify us with oportunities that open up at every stage: Environmental puzzles, mysteriously coded scrolls, incomplete maps, a bit of Myst in Eorzea.

R

---

Man, I thought this was going to be a good post and I was terribly mistaken. End-obsessed game design as you call it fosters no such bad behavior in the community. The community fosters the behavior themselves and on top of that making advancement mechanics easy does improve the chances for everybody. They are able to advance at a quick enough pace to not fall too far behind and have an easy time catching up in contrary to whatever it is you are saying which makes no sense. The hardcore players do get bored easily currently because a total lack of content and once there is plenty of content with high difficulty and patches that constantly add content every couple months then they will be happy too.

Now I agree with you about making it where the hardcore players only seem to get rewarded for playing 40+ hours a week and that should not be the case, though if they are playing that much then honestly they have earned certain things and should have certain content geared for them. Just so you know I am not a hardcore player, I used to be years ago in FFXI but now I have very limited time to play. I would much rather advance faster or at the rate I want to and not be bound by something silly. What about the people who have everything leveled already? Make them start over? or what!?

I think you thought too much about what you would like to see in the game and didn't even bother to think how it would effect all the other players or players who do not see things in the same way as you do. Also you don't know what all will be in 2.0 or what kind of new content they will bring us if they will have stuff for the mid levels to make things interesting. FFXIV 2.0 Beta is just around the corner, perhaps you guys should save topics like this til after you see what they have in store for us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiote

I really do hope Yoshida has found a way to advance through content that isn't the WoW quest grind. Final Fantasy is supposed to be an engaging story yes, but mob grinding has been an significant part of the series since the first game. Yes you can finish the game by just playing through the content, but you can not max out your character by doing so. I really do not want Yoshida to pollute this game with Walls of Text asking you to kill 9 guys only to proceed to the next wall of text asking you to kill nine guys. Its just Grinding XP, but you have to do it alone. If he has done what I hope he has, content will be very long quests that will advance your levels as you progress through them. Not 9 short quests to kill 9 guys full of text no one reads..

---

As of right now I have no faith in Yoshi and the reason being is: leveling with quest and dungeon (instances). I dont like quest leveling and I dont like instanced content. I prefer different place to camp and kill mobs. If Yoshi tends to do quests and dungeons to level that they stand to lose more players. Utimately if Yoshi dosent balance all content open world, exp grinds at camps, quest etc FFXIV will be the 1st Final Fantasy title to sink like a ship!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nazrakin

The truth is that "end game" is a lie. For most people it is far from the end of the game, they're probably going to spend 70% of their time at level cap vs the journey of 1-49. That is why there is such an emphasis on the "end game" in MMOs.

---

Very true. Still, new players must progress through it first. Even if there is flying unicorns and rainbows at the end of the road, if a player quits, he's probably gone for good. And just allowing players to speed through it is not adressing the core problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I, too, was surprised at FF XIII's sales numbers.

---

lol That was the first thing that came to my mind. Though, the story was nice and the game had a nice difficulty (well, later anyway, unlike XIII-2...), but that's another story entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxthunder

As of right now I have no faith in Yoshi and the reason being is: leveling with quest and dungeon (instances). I dont like quest leveling and I dont like instanced content. I prefer different place to camp and kill mobs. If Yoshi tends to do quests and dungeons to level that they stand to lose more players. Utimately if Yoshi dosent balance all content open world, exp grinds at camps, quest etc FFXIV will be the 1st Final Fantasy title to sink like a ship!

---

And, if those systems were added on top of already additional systems, would you be as upset?

You can grind for EXP. You can Quest for EXP, you can Raid for EXP. It sounds like he's jut creating options for people and that there's finally sufficient reward for those who prefer to spend their time out adventuring rather than hitting up the same monster types again and again. I mean, that's ok if that's your thing, but for too long other methods have been inefficient for leveling purposes.

Yoshi makes a presumption for what players will be doing in the game, but by no means dose he think 100% of the playerbase will follow the formula. It's a statistical impossibility.

Your faith is your own to give, but I have the distinct idea that the tone implicated by that interview you are hung up about is not correct. And even if it is, you have your alternatives. Who knows, you may even change your views and like it after experiencing it.

Try not to be so locked down in your opinions before sampling the actual product.

What's the point of a "grind to cap" anyway except to waste everyone's time?

Unless they have a purpose to the journey, there's really little point in the exercise if all good content is reserved for endgame players. Making 200 badly designed quests to pad out the levels is no good reason, unless those quests are actually fun and worth doing.

Quest-grind, EXP-grind, it's all just the same thing at the end of the day. Grind!

They might as well just do an EXP grind and spare themselves the effort of making hundreds of quests everyone will skim through anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxthunder

As of right now I have no faith in Yoshi and the reason being is: leveling with quest and dungeon (instances). I dont like quest leveling and I dont like instanced content. I prefer different place to camp and kill mobs. If Yoshi tends to do quests and dungeons to level that they stand to lose more players. Utimately if Yoshi dosent balance all content open world, exp grinds at camps, quest etc FFXIV will be the 1st Final Fantasy title to sink like a ship!

---

If you can sit there and admit that you have no faith in the development team, then why waste your time and money with the game? I'm sure Yoshi and co is aware that he may lose a few subs, but the goal of 2.0 is to reach the millions that are playing the other MMOs. Part of accomplishing that is to take the parts of those games that people like and adapt them to FFXIV.

This is already the most disastrous FF title ever release; thats the whole reason behind all these drastic changes.

Well, we can always hope for nice expansions after 2.0... And everyone who wishes for something amazing to happen before 2.0 - stop fooling yourself :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxthunder

As of right now I have no faith in Yoshi and the reason being is: leveling with quest and dungeon (instances). I dont like quest leveling and I dont like instanced content. I prefer different place to camp and kill mobs. If Yoshi tends to do quests and dungeons to level that they stand to lose more players. Utimately if Yoshi dosent balance all content open world, exp grinds at camps, quest etc FFXIV will be the 1st Final Fantasy title to sink like a ship!

---

This!~~~~~~~~~~~`

Best post in the whole forum +100

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

And, if those systems were added on top of already additional systems, would you be as upset?

You can grind for EXP. You can Quest for EXP, you can Raid for EXP. It sounds like he's jut creating options for people and that there's finally sufficient reward for those who prefer to spend their time out adventuring rather than hitting up the same monster types again and again. I mean, that's ok if that's your thing, but for too long other methods have been inefficient for leveling purposes.

Yoshi makes a presumption for what players will be doing in the game, but by no means dose he think 100% of the playerbase will follow the formula. It's a statistical impossibility.

---

So then I guess the question becomes, given limited and shared resources, what is the quality methodology in adding content: covering the largest percentage of the playerbase for a content any-way-you-like community or really acing some key aspects? What lines of thought might make the most out of those resources?

-----------------

Edit: Though this is probably obvious from most posts I've written, I would never suggest a sheer cost-efficiency mindset for ideas made on the forums, especially since making ideas would normally cost SE time (and therefore money) but is here free.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So then I guess the question becomes, given limited and shared resources, what is the quality methodology in adding content: covering the largest percentage of the playerbase for a content any-way-you-like community or really acing some key aspects? What lines of thought might make the most out of those resources?

-----------------

Edit: Though this is probably obvious from most posts I've written, I would never suggest a sheer cost-efficiency mindset for ideas made on the forums, especially since making ideas would normally cost SE time (and therefore money) but is here free.

---

Why settle for either one? Why not land both?

You may excuse me for a bit of naievty here, but I'm not speaking my view, I'm speaking Yoshida's. He's set out to make "the best mmo" that means both nailing down the content, AND appealing to the wide aduiance. Can he pull it off? I don't bleive so, but if he makes great strides in the attempt, and the game is better for it, then I am not going to push against that approach.

World of Warcraft hit its success coming after FFXI, which came out at the trailing edge of the Everquest era of MMOs. However, if market is any indication, we're now at the trailing edge of WoW's MMO era. We have the advantage to look at other MMOs, see what was done right, what was done wrong, and what hasn't been done - and that's a great place to be when you're completely remaking a game that already has a small established fan base.

Yoshida's policy is pretty clear here - he's not setteling for less. He, however foolish the idea may be cost wise, is fully intending on keeping his entire crew after redevelopment to continually crank out new content and systems after 2.0 launch. The content updates we've been given these past six months have been handed to us by a mere fraction of the full team. And the remaining people on the team has been working tirelessly on a gaming engine that is better both for players and for them to continue development with.

If Yoshi is intending on keeping that crew even after redevelopment, I don't think cost efficiency is in his venue here.

If I was taking a guess, he wants to create a wide berth of systems to cover as many playstyles as he can get, and then develop upon them in a way that keeps the players interested, as well as encouraging people to experiment around with the differing systems of the game.

We'll see how it pans out. I'm skeptical of his ability to maintain the momentum he has. But my faith in the man's vision? Rock solid. He's downright ambitious and idealistic to boot - my kind of guy. He well knows that this game can be his golden ticket to video game fame, or the shackles that will always make him a laughing stock of the industry. With that kind of pressure, you don't sleep much, and you must definitely do not pull your punches.

He might get knocked around by his superiors and have some of his people taken away form him, which will slow down his progress, but it won't stop him. I've no doubt that Yoshi-P will not stop until he's made a game that we are continually delighted and amazed over, or someone pulls the plug on him while he's trying.

^^^ You put so much faith in a guy that has showed little to no results, and no i do not dislike yoshida, i just find it mind blowing, how a guy get praised to the heavens for writing silly letters about what will come 2 years from said released letter, i have yet to see an update where he or his team shows they are going beyond what any developer out there in the industry would go to please us or win us back, every update so far, has been what lackluster if compared to any other MMO, and sure you can as always use the "2.0 excuse" or the infamous "Server limit etc etc one"

If 2.0 is just a server switch and a restart of the crappy story of 1.0 i will be disappointed, for i am expecting a huge influx of content across all levels, and i do not mean 1 quest every 10 levels, and the same 5 quest on repeat for the next 2 years until an expansion hits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

You may well be jaded yourself having rushed levels as a THM -and I am going to have to say that it is a high possibility that it is coloring your perspective of the game.

---

Would it help you if I said it took me less than a week to level monk? Although this is in a solo/duo/party scenario. 1-20 solo 20-30 duo 30+ party *Without a Powerlevel mind you* and 40+ was just a facerolled blurr.

Please don't assume that I'm talking out of my arse I am well aware of the terrible situation the leveling is in this game. It's been brought up on more than several occasions that leveling if dedicated enough has been completed in a single day. You keep talking about people being able to "Go back" to old lower level content and I wonder that if the game stays the way it is why people would even bother.

What is the reward for them? What is the point of it being lower level relevant when the leveling experience is almost litteraly pointless in the scheme of things. You can't just give thousands of "Choices" and call it a day and tell anyone who presents the "Whats the point?" and give them "But you have CHOICES GUYS" choices are useless unless they have any sort of hearty meaning to them.

I'm not asking for the game to be a gut wrenching marathon to get to the endgame but as it stands it's rediculous to even call it leveling in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

^^^ You put so much faith in a guy that has showed little to no results, and no i do not dislike yoshida, i just find it mind blowing, how a guy get praised to the heavens for writing silly letters about what will come 2 years from said released letter, i have yet to see an update where he or his team shows they are going beyond what any developer out there in the industry would go to please us or win us back, every update so far, has been what lackluster if compared to any other MMO, and sure you can as always use the "2.0 excuse" or the infamous "Server limit etc etc one"

If 2.0 is just a server switch and a restart of the crappy story of 1.0 i will be disappointed, for i am expecting a huge influx of content across all levels, and i do not mean 1 quest every 10 levels, and the same 5 quest on repeat for the next 2 years until an expansion hits.

---

Have you seriously not been following the game since Yoshi-P has taken over? He has done tons of things with the current crappy game engine that are successful. Of course nothing mind blowing yet but that is because it would be a total waste to do so, he is putting that stuff into 2.0, the screen shots alone with all the things coming with 2.0 is mind blowing in itself but since you need to see to believe then just wait for 2.0 beta it is just around the corner.

Though I guess arguing the point is fruitless because you are going to refuse any point anyone else makes til you see it for yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YuriSan

It's funny cause the people that are running sweaty in the heat agonizing in their suits rushing to their destination
will eventually end up being at the same spot with those who are walking relaxed wearing their shorts and straw hat, sipping on ice cold lemonade while enjoying the pretty trees and flowers.

So funny.

Peeps want to do endgame tho and that is also understandable.
Theres nothing to do as a lowbie other than level up ur jobs really... and thats boring!

---

Yup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

So, according to this, the devs shouldn't focus on low-/mid-level content because it can become obsolete?
What about new players who come in periodically?
What about people that want to level a 2nd and 3rd job?
What about the so glorified end-game content that gets obsolete?
Once you have all weapons/ gear of a certain kind?

Oh, and why not just shut down the servers now. I mean, sooner or later this game will be dead anyway, we just don't know when! lol

That logic, at least for me, is fundamentally flawed.

---

You're exactly right. We may as well have no leveling/achievement/etc. process at all, nothing that makes a game a decent game. If we're to treat 1-49 as just the pre-game, and 50 as the end-all/be-all, no one will ever bother to stop at midgame making the "endgame or no-game" mentality become a self-fulfilling prophecy (as has been shown in every single modern-day MMO).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

^^^ You put so much faith in a guy that has showed little to no results, and no i do not dislike yoshida, i just find it mind blowing, how a guy get praised to the heavens for writing silly letters about what will come 2 years from said released letter, i have yet to see an update where he or his team shows they are going beyond what any developer out there in the industry would go to please us or win us back, every update so far, has been what lackluster if compared to any other MMO, and sure you can as always use the "2.0 excuse" or the infamous "Server limit etc etc one"

If 2.0 is just a server switch and a restart of the crappy story of 1.0 i will be disappointed, for i am expecting a huge influx of content across all levels, and i do not mean 1 quest every 10 levels, and the same 5 quest on repeat for the next 2 years until an expansion hits.

---

Again, if you don't have faith that Yoshida can turn this thing around, why are you here? You're not happy with the current state of the game, you're not happy with the direction it is headed... Why not waste your time and money looking for something you can enjoy?

The fact that these guys were willing to admit they screwed up and attempt to completely rebuild the game is absolutely something that you don't see often. If you look around most other MMOs in this situation they have either been shut down entirely or forced to go f2p. If 2.0 doesnt succeed then I doubt the team will get a third chance. For that reason alone all of us better have a little faith and hope that Yoshida can pull it off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Why settle for either one? Why not land both?

You may excuse me for a bit of naievty here, but I'm not speaking my view, I'm speaking Yoshida's. He's set out to make "the best mmo" that means both nailing down the content, AND appealing to the wide aduiance. Can he pull it off? I don't bleive so, but if he makes great strides in the attempt, and the game is better for it, then I am not going to push against that approach.

World of Warcraft hit its success coming after FFXI, which came out at the trailing edge of the Everquest era of MMOs. However, if market is any indication, we're now at the trailing edge of WoW's MMO era. We have the advantage to look at other MMOs, see what was done right, what was done wrong, and what hasn't been done - and that's a great place to be when you're completely remaking a game that already has a small established fan base.

Yoshida's policy is pretty clear here - he's not setteling for less. He, however foolish the idea may be cost wise, is fully intending on keeping his entire crew after redevelopment to continually crank out new content and systems after 2.0 launch. The content updates we've been given these past six months have been handed to us by a mere fraction of the full team. And the remaining people on the team has been working tirelessly on a gaming engine that is better both for players and for them to continue development with.

If Yoshi is intending on keeping that crew even after redevelopment, I don't think cost efficiency is in his venue here.

If I was taking a guess, he wants to create a wide berth of systems to cover as many playstyles as he can get, and then develop upon them in a way that keeps the players interested, as well as encouraging people to experiment around with the differing systems of the game.

We'll see how it pans out. I'm skeptical of his ability to maintain the momentum he has. But my faith in the man's vision? Rock solid. He's downright ambitious and idealistic to boot - my kind of guy. He well knows that this game can be his golden ticket to video game fame, or the shackles that will always make him a laughing stock of the industry. With that kind of pressure, you don't sleep much, and you must definitely do not pull your punches.

He might get knocked around by his superiors and have some of his people taken away form him, which will slow down his progress, but it won't stop him. I've no doubt that Yoshi-P will not stop until he's made a game that we are continually delighted and amazed over, or someone pulls the plug on him while he's trying.

---

Fantastically said. I think the fact that he intends to keep his full team is just proof that he has a pretty good grip on that problem WOW is facing. It isn't that Warcraft is a terrible game -- its that Blizzard isn't simply isn't able to put out content fast enough. Part of that is that many members of the team have been moved to other projects, namely Titan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're not attacking the grind, but then you attack the grind. There is no "desperation" to get to endgame (for most people), just a desire. Why don't you word your OP and topic to reflect more accurately what you want, which is "More things to do along the way to the top?"

The problem with adding a lot of lower to mid end content is that such content is already only used/enjoyed by the player for a relatively short period of time (e.g. in the course of doing it, you'll level out of it and not have a reason to go back). This means development resources are being invested in something that already won't get that much use, and as level caps get higher and more people progress past the content level, will become obsolete rather quickly.

The good news for you is that post 2.0 there will be more use of quests/activities in the level-up process.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

So, according to this, the devs shouldn't focus on low-/mid-level content because it can become obsolete?
What about new players who come in periodically?
What about people that want to level a 2nd and 3rd job?
What about the so glorified end-game content that gets obsolete?
Once you have all weapons/ gear of a certain kind?

Oh, and why not just shut down the servers now. I mean, sooner or later this game will be dead anyway, we just don't know when! lol

That logic, at least for me, is fundamentally flawed.

---

Just to add to Payadopa's list: What about making the leveling process less speedy, so that people actually get to linger at mid-game long enough for them to enjoy a complex mid-game experience, to say nothing of making it worthwhile for the devs to work on said content? If the game grants some semblance of satisfaction and thrills at mid-level, people will have less reason to sacrifice their first-born to get to the finish line.

A corollary to the conclusions of your reasoning leads directly to actually allowing people to create their characters already at level 50. Heck, we're all going to get there, anyway!

And, while you are at it, have all characters already be equipped with Artifact Armor, and Relic Weapons... That will save the devs tons of their valuable time which, instead, they could invest in... hey wait! They won't have much to work on then, will they?

:p

If you make the leveling process perfunctory, then you make the "end-level" into the beginning stage of the game. That simple.

R

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrien

hey OP.

2.0

---

Are you sure of that?

If you are, I envy you. As for me, I am not sure. I've read the "Version 2.0 Documents" several times, and I still haven't come across a description of what I mentioned in my OP in them.

I wish it were so, but I'm not sure that's what we'll get. If I were to assert it as a matter of fact, to myself or others, like you do, I would call that wishful thinking. But that's just me.

R

I think there should be more content for lower levels, or at least content that doesn't require having certain jobs at 50. For instance, casinos (like the possible golden saucer style place in 2.0) and a few more lower level dungeons would be a good start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bobbygunz

What's the point of a "grind to cap" anyway except to waste everyone's time?

Unless they have a purpose to the journey, there's really little point in the exercise if all good content is reserved for endgame players. Making 200 badly designed quests to pad out the levels is no good reason, unless those quests are actually fun and worth doing.

Quest-grind, EXP-grind, it's all just the same thing at the end of the day. Grind!

They might as well just do an EXP grind and spare themselves the effort of making hundreds of quests everyone will skim through anyway.

---

I agree with you, Bobbygunz.

R

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

Have you seriously not been following the game since Yoshi-P has taken over? He has done tons of things with the current crappy game engine that are successful. Of course nothing mind blowing yet but that is because it would be a total waste to do so, he is putting that stuff into 2.0, the screen shots alone with all the things coming with 2.0 is mind blowing in itself but since you need to see to believe then just wait for 2.0 beta it is just around the corner.

Though I guess arguing the point is fruitless because you are going to refuse any point anyone else makes til you see it for yourself.

---

I have been playing the game since beta to date..... So yes i have been following the game, i was not impressed with the waste of resources on "Seasonal events" that added little to no lore, or the spamfest that beastman camps are, really there is little to no strategy to them other than "Zerg everything till it dies", wish was ok back then since the game needed content in any shape or form, but is been 2 full years, the excuse of 2.0 is irrelevant since they can add content at cap level, but not in mid or lower level ? really ? yet they do a welcome back campaign.... smart move there yoshi.

Also the party search function, that was something i was really exited about, until i saw it and then i was like ..... wow really ? this is nothing like any LFG tool in any MMO, it is so.... backward and better yet utterly useless..... yeah if something as important as that is delivered in such conditions what excuse is there ? None at all really.

Oh and i never said i have no faith in him, just not blind faith as some people have, wish is ok as long as like religion, they don't try to shove it down my throat, do i have my doubts ? Yes, are they well founded ? In my opinion they are, not to you ? Cool, but there is really no reason for attacks as childish as "Well if you dont like it leave" lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

We will. They need enough quests to make leveling through it viable, so...

---

How would such a system work if you have 7 Classes to level, but only one set of quest that probably won't last for 350 level ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Why settle for either one? Why not land both?

You may excuse me for a bit of naievty here, but I'm not speaking my view, I'm speaking Yoshida's. He's set out to make "the best mmo" that means both nailing down the content, AND appealing to the wide aduiance. Can he pull it off? I don't bleive so, but if he makes great strides in the attempt, and the game is better for it, then I am not going to push against that approach.

World of Warcraft hit its success coming after FFXI, which came out at the trailing edge of the Everquest era of MMOs. However, if market is any indication, we're now at the trailing edge of WoW's MMO era. We have the advantage to look at other MMOs, see what was done right, what was done wrong, and what hasn't been done - and that's a great place to be when you're completely remaking a game that already has a small established fan base.

Yoshida's policy is pretty clear here - he's not setteling for less. He, however foolish the idea may be cost wise, is fully intending on keeping his entire crew after redevelopment to continually crank out new content and systems after 2.0 launch. The content updates we've been given these past six months have been handed to us by a mere fraction of the full team. And the remaining people on the team has been working tirelessly on a gaming engine that is better both for players and for them to continue development with.

If Yoshi is intending on keeping that crew even after redevelopment, I don't think cost efficiency is in his venue here.

If I was taking a guess, he wants to create a wide berth of systems to cover as many playstyles as he can get, and then develop upon them in a way that keeps the players interested, as well as encouraging people to experiment around with the differing systems of the game.

We'll see how it pans out. I'm skeptical of his ability to maintain the momentum he has. But my faith in the man's vision? Rock solid. He's downright ambitious and idealistic to boot - my kind of guy. He well knows that this game can be his golden ticket to video game fame, or the shackles that will always make him a laughing stock of the industry. With that kind of pressure, you don't sleep much, and you must definitely do not pull your punches.

He might get knocked around by his superiors and have some of his people taken away form him, which will slow down his progress, but it won't stop him. I've no doubt that Yoshi-P will not stop until he's made a game that we are continually delighted and amazed over, or someone pulls the plug on him while he's trying.

---

I hope I can soon share your confidence in the man. I almost do, but still can't quite reach that point. And in part of it is because of that sense of pragmatics in looking to old MMOs while pushing for that "best by both means". It doesn't take that much hindsight to see what worked and why from old MMOs, but every time you use that as your base of knowledge, you've already tied yourself down. The only insight that can be taken from the view of past games is of the playerbase, and even then it's like looking at products of numerous unknown factors rather than usefully measurable composition. I honest believe that making games is an art first, a skill second. And that opinion is not intuition alone.

Synergy of the elements of a game require a unique genius to begin with, something further out there -- world-stories, pervading feels, excellent plot-lines. It's hard to guess whether games any of the philosophic motifs parsed through Final Fantasy 7 through 9 (10 I consider to be relatively easy to guess and is therefore unlisted) were intended from the start, but if they weren't the characters, world, and plot pulled those things in like the perfect blanket. That's playing to a game's strength. Not that of a rival company, not prior games -- to each it's own.

Starting from the beginning by enlisting known means that exist only because they were how another game chose to use them to present their own world, story, feels, is like trying to make a new sport out of a (proven-designed) lacrosse stick, baseball bat, and a basket ball. MMORPG conventions as specific as 'quests' (as a pick-up, oppertunity granted, cash, reward mechanic) only exist because of limits in willnessness to code newly and design original, more fitting ideas. MMORPG goals like the feel of adventure, progression, and camaraderie are the only things that can really carry through time and time again. But they're ends, not means. A game should take it's own perspective on what those goals can and should mean to the game, and the means should be that alone.

The more you see originally, the more obvious the connections become to further additions, and the whole picture with every addition made. Playing instead a survivalist battle of testing pieces you never designed, albeit in your own forging, in order to hole up and refinish a sinking ship does not change that the hull is flawed and will sink again.

If he hasn't already, Yoshi needs to take a step back. If he wants to aim for perfection, he can't do it by repairing and slapping on new pieces. He has the opportunity of 2.0, and he should take it to see what he's really aiming for, in a complete view, and then pursue it.

Edit: I do find "cranking" out new content to be a near perfect example of playing to a survivalist method. Even while what 'content' provides may be intriguing and is certainly a worthwhile investment, it's no saving grace. WoW has only ever escalated its costs in playing to this strategy, and though it's made its success in bulk, its success has always been a comparative one. It systems are inviting and with have little annoyance, but neither are they at all remarkable. If this is the edge of a new era of MMOs, a step needs to be taken forward instead, to claim a remarkable spot in the era.

I wish I could 'Like' the OP one bajillion times.
I literally have stopped playing several times because I thought leveling in 2.0 might be more fun, and I should save the experience for when it comes out. When I found out they were just going to speed it up and make it an endgame fest, seriously /disappointed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tonkra

you really come late with this thread..


Yoshida about 2.0. :

"you will get the key to level up your character, so completing content is a key to leveling up in 2.0 version.

Completing the quests, getting rewards, huge experience points, or completing a dungeon and getting experience points, that's going to be the key thing to level up your character, not like at the moment where you have to do monster camping or farming, that's not going to work in 2.0."


one standard quest from the screens:

"Hyrstmill wasnt built within a day - deliever whaterwheel parts to hyrstmill"

(on the righten side)
http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/img/sc..._20_PUB_04.jpg

---

A bit off topic but has anyone else realized in that screenshot is a 46 DRG using Gae Bolg (Lv50)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pofo

A bit off topic but has anyone else realized in that screenshot is a 46 DRG using Gae Bolg (Lv50)?

---

they can do anything in the test server