Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So this is why we have homogenization.

What's next? PLD's Passive healing is to much?

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If you want to talk about homogenisation, you might want to do some self reflection.
Any time another tank does something better, the Warrior community makes a huge deal out of it until it gets streamlined.
There's *literally* no reason for me to play my favourite tank over yours anymore. Warrior is just a flat upgrade now.
Warrior cannibalised any sort of job identity they ever gave to Dark knight and then at the end of the expansion people go ''Oh Drk bad cus needs rework''
And then the cycle repeats.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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The point being made is that invulns allow you to bypass tankbusters, swaps, and entire fight mechanics. That means that having a shorter recast allows you to bypass more mechanics, which in turn can change the way you execute fights entirely. You can discuss potential situational upsides to the other invulns, but there are no downsides to Holmgang that directly result in less uses than the others. Holmgang gives you the power to potentially delete one mechanic every four minutes, making it the most powerful defensive action in the game.

I think there are two directions that you can go with this. The first is to add in a drawback that renders it undesirable to use under certain situations. A Holmgang is a duel to the death held on a small island, or holm. Perhaps leaving a small circular ground effect while the effect is active gives you a coward debuff and removes the invuln effect. Perhaps leaving the zone kills you. Now you might have justification for having a one to three minute shorter recast, as you may not want to use it at all on some mechanics if movement is required. The other option is to give all the invulns the same recast, and give them all unique drawbacks to differentiate them.

I do think it's funny that you're discussing homogenization and suddenly looking for an 'identity' for WAR, especially after the job design has been built from years of robbing the identity of the other tanks. It is the epitome of low risk, high reward gameplay.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

If you want to talk about homogenisation, you might want to do some self reflection.
Any time another tank does something better, the Warrior community makes a huge deal out of it until it gets streamlined.
There's *literally* no reason for me to play my favourite tank over yours anymore. Warrior is just a flat upgrade now.
Warrior cannibalised any sort of job identity they ever gave to Dark knight and then at the end of the expansion people go ''Oh Drk bad cus needs rework''
And then the cycle repeats.

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I'm sorry but i'm just going to have to disagree. I'm not making a huge deal out of what WAR doesn't have at all. I want WAR to be different and unique. DRK can be different and unique to. I don't really care.

But when you have people crying at the moon about about how WAR having 1 thing better then other tanks...I would argue...PLD is better at self sustain then WAR but lacks some in damage. Simple trade off.

I disagree that you can't play your favorite tank because WAR is just better...that's just silly imo.

I can play w/e tank I want....and still clear....(maybe not GNB because I suck at GNB lol)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I do think it's funny that you're discussing homogenization and suddenly looking for an 'identity' for WAR, especially after the job design has been built from years of robbing the identity of the other tanks. It is the epitome of low risk, high reward gameplay.

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This is subjective. I would say PLD is LOW risk as I have WAY more of a defensive tool kit then WAR. Not to mention Holy Sheltron is ridiculous mitigation and healing that is passive....no effort needed.

PLD can also be range. To me...that was an upside over warriors pathetic tomahawk. The simple fact that I can do my burst a mile away is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I'm starting to think you don't main a tank or primarily tank in savage. Because if SE did what you wanted....then each tank would literally play the same...like literally. You could bring w/e you wanted. Might as well change PLD/WAR/GNB/DRK names to just "tank".

Because what you think is "overpowered" is different then what I think is overpowered. Hallowed Ground is OP....like zero downsides....I use it...I don't die....and I get to keep ALL my HP....no healer needed.

TBN is over powered...use it...negate ton's of damage, gain a increased free damage button.

Heart of Corundom is overpowered....like a mini excog on a VERY short cooldown.

I think each tank has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it's how you address those strengths and weaknesses is how a savage group needs to overcome. I know for a fact that I can do P12's on PLD or WAR....and my healers have to adjust...it's not a ton...but they have to address WAR's weakness of lesser self sustain then PLD's nutty every 20 seconds I can heal myself. But the fact is....my healers KNOW that as PLD....I don't need much baby sitting. WAR...they might have to toss me a regen or small shield every once in a while.

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What the hell did i even read...

TBN increased and free damage? It's 2024 and people still don't know how this ability works.
HoC OP? At worst it's a BW sidegrade, trading a shield, guaranteed crit heals and healing less overall for 10% more mit.
And hallowed ground OP? It's *LITERALLY* the worst invuln... It has nearly TWICE the cooldown of Holmgang. The secondary effects of invulns are barely even an afterthought.
Only the cooldowns matter.
Also, Warrior's LESSER sustain? Are you actually being serious?

LOL do you even know how long a single savage pull takes? 8-11 mins at the most? Most if not all Tank Busters happen within the first 30 seconds or a 1min mark.

How is TBN not free damage? Blood weapon is used on opener regains MP, TBN on the MT on pull....how is this not free damage with a simple Dark Arts proc? This is literally what my OT does...every...single...pull. He's getting his MP back anyway with Blood Weapon.

I'll give you the GNB HoC as I don't really play GNB...not my cup of tea.

Hallowed in a 7 min reclear....is HANDS DOWN stronger then Holmgang....no loss of HP....no healers healing me....no extra mitigation used....no loss of DPS from healers. Can't use holmgang all but once if the fight is over....soooo.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

LOL do you even know how long a single savage pull takes? 8-11 mins at the most?

How is TBN not free damage? Blood weapon is used on opener regains MP, TBN on the MT on pull....how is this not free damage with a simple Dark Arts proc? This is literally what my OT does...every...single...pull. He's getting his MP back anyway with Blood Weapon.

I'll give you the GNB HoC as I don't really play GNB...not my cup of tea.

Hallowed in a 7 min reclear....is HANDS DOWN stronger then Holmgang....no loss of HP....no healers healing me....no extra mitigation used....no loss of DPS from healers. Can't use holmgang all but once if the fight is over....soooo.

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TBN in your opener is used to prevent overcapping on mana.
TBN costs 3000 mana, you break the shield, and get refunded the Edge of shadow you would have used, which also costs 3000 mana.
There's nothing free, and the Edge does not do higher damage.
If you buy a shirt for 50 dollars and refund it, you didn't make any money.
As for the whole ''Hallowed ground OP'' No, it's the worst invuln. It's secondary application is nearly completely irrelevant.
Again, only the cooldown matters. Entire tiers have been warped around Holmgang.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

TBN in your opener is used to prevent overcapping on mana.
TBN costs 3000 mana, you break the shield, and get refunded the Edge of shadow you would have used, which also costs 3000 mana.
There's nothing free, and the Edge does not do higher damage.
If you buy a shirt for 50 dollars and refund it, you didn't make any money.

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I never said it did higher damage....I meant it just increased your damage. If you didn't use TBN that damage wouldn't be there at all.

What if the shirt got you a job by looking clean dressed in an interview? I got a job....and I got my $50 back.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I never said it did higher damage....I meant it just increased your damage. If you didn't use TBN that damage wouldn't be there at all.

What if the shirt got you a job by looking clean dressed in an interview? I got a job....and I got my $50 back.

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The analogy doesn't work. The other tanks get their ''suit'' for free.
Having to use your mitigation to prevent overcapping on your damage resource is a downside.
And Dark knight is the only tank in the game that has to use it's mitigation to prevent overcapping on it's damage resource.
It's not a good thing. You don't get ''more'' damage than the others just because the mechanic exists.
They streamlined the tank dps output, so it's actually better to have a simplified damage rotation rather than one with jank where you have to use your mit to prevent overcap.
Warrior wouldn't become a better tank if you gave it an identical mechanic. There's no inherent advantage to speak of here.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The analogy doesn't work. The other tanks get their ''suit'' for free.
Having to use your mitigation to prevent overcapping on your damage resource is a downside.
And Dark knight is the only tank in the game that has to use it's mitigation to prevent overcapping on it's damage resource.
It's not a good thing. You don't get ''more'' damage than the others just because the mechanic exists.
They streamlined the tank dps output, so it's actually better to have a simplified damage rotation rather than one with jank where you have to use your mit to prevent overcap.
Warrior wouldn't become a better tank if you gave it an identical mechanic. There's no inherent advantage to speak of here.

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So what's stopping you from playing the meta then....just go warrior. Zero downsides. Right?

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

So what's stopping you from playing the meta then....just go warrior. Zero downsides. Right?

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Yeah, that is kinda what everyone is doing right now.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I'm starting to think you don't main a tank or primarily tank in savage. Because if SE did what you wanted....then each tank would literally play the same...like literally. You could bring w/e you wanted. Might as well change PLD/WAR/GNB/DRK names to just "tank".

Because what you think is "overpowered" is different then what I think is overpowered. Hallowed Ground is OP....like zero downsides....I use it...I don't die....and I get to keep ALL my HP....no healer needed.

TBN is over powered...use it...negate ton's of damage, gain a increased free damage button.

Heart of Corundom is overpowered....like a mini excog on a VERY short cooldown.

I think each tank has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it's how you address those strengths and weaknesses is how a savage group needs to overcome. I know for a fact that I can do P12's on PLD or WAR....and my healers have to adjust...it's not a ton...but they have to address WAR's weakness of lesser self sustain then PLD's nutty every 20 seconds I can heal myself. But the fact is....my healers KNOW that as PLD....I don't need much baby sitting. WAR...they might have to toss me a regen or small shield every once in a while.

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And you obviously don’t play healer at all if you think not taking damage once per 7 minutes is worth more than cancelling a tankbuster once per 4 minutes

Heart of corrundum is too strong but that’s not remotely the point being made, same as holy Shelton having too much healing, again not really the point at all, not having one tank be the best at everything is not the same as making them all play the same as you think I think I want despite me giving no indication of such, even if we went with your “interpretation” of how the tanks apparently work PLD would be ride for a nerf because according to you it holds all the upsides, the same rules apply here, it’s not homogenisation to have the tanks have different strengths and weaknesses, right now WAR has all the upsides, PLD doesn’t have WAR’s upsides but it has no downsides, GNB and DRK are all downsides besides GNB’s damage

WAR needs to be nerfed, there is no way around it

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Yeah, that is kinda what everyone is doing right now.

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Hmm i'm not playing WAR...I did, but after the PLD rework....pretty hard to go back. I still seem to clear. LOL my OT is a DRK. We have like zero issues on tankbusters. P12s pt 2 I use Hallowed right off the bat for tentacles. Tank Swap before Pangenesis DRK takes the second tentacle right after Pangenesis and Living Dead. Swap back. Crush Helm is Sentinel + Holy Sheltron and I intervention DRK on the 3rd hit. simple.

WAR wouldn't be any different. Just need topped off faster after the 1st tentacle hit. Pretty much it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And you obviously don’t play healer at all if you think not taking damage once per 7 minutes is worth more than cancelling a tankbuster once per 4 minutes

Heart of corrundum is too strong but that’s not remotely the point being made, same as holy Shelton having too much healing, again not really the point at all, not having one tank be the best at everything is not the same as making them all play the same as you think I think I want despite me giving no indication of such, even if we went with your “interpretation” of how the tanks apparently work PLD would be ride for a nerf because according to you it holds all the upsides, the same rules apply here, it’s not homogenisation to have the tanks have different strengths and weaknesses, right now WAR has all the upsides, PLD doesn’t have WAR’s upsides but it has no downsides, GNB and DRK are all downsides besides GNB’s damage

WAR needs to be nerfed, there is no way around it

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Well I know that I never worry about my healers in a static....don't need to....i'm not healing. All I can do is lessen the impact the healers need to heal me. That I have control over.

My main focus is Mitigation and my rotation and lining up with 2 min. Boss positioning is another thing I have to worry about...but it's pretty simple when you learn what you can get away with.

I'm always surprised by people that say they know everything about tanking and what skills need nerfed when they themselves prolly don't tank or Main Tank. Don't see me going around saying Macro Cosmos or Expedient needs to be nerfed. No.

Just like I don't know anything about healing or the oGCD rotation they use. Or how the big cooldowns line up. I don't need to. That's not my job.

My job is to rotate my mitigation and spread it out evenly, and understanding which mitigation works for the correct moment.

I do know this though. My healers do NOT complain about cheesing mechs...like ever. It's just a perk for WAR to use it more, just like it's a perk for PLD to negate ALL damage.

And I know I still get clears. And that's all...that...matters.

So, I just read a lot of your responses and you haven’t really made a sound argument for WAR not to be nerfed. On top of that, you also lack perspective if you’re being ignorant about Healers - and I’m going to bring this up once - not having anything to do other than hit the 1 button.

Yes, our Tank Healing is through the roof(except for DRK). It’s causing issues for Healers as a whole. Also, I’d like to tell you I mained PLD through this tier: You obviously are focused on your sole job and unwilling to actually look at Savage application of other Tanks because your generalizations don’t paint a good picture.

Others in here that have been talking about Holmgang being an actual issue for Raid Design is very true because I don’t think I’ve seen a tier without WAR since 6.1 when its damage was low. In retrospect, a 4m CD for an Undying Invuln is very strong - the healing being trivial if your WAR is not taking autos, at that. Bloodwhetting in fact nearly trivializes boss Autos even in Savage as well along with Equilibrium’s flat heal+Regen.

Let’s go a step further as well: Efficiency. When Holmgang is used, think about it: Are you saving your other mitigation and personal mitigation with an Undying Invuln? Are you saving your healers MP and resources from damage that could’ve been over both tanks+autos? Are you saving Melee/Caster’s Feint/Addle? All of these amount up to the value that Holmgang brings. On such a low Cooldown, all you have to do is bring a WHM and have them save Benediction(180s CD btw!) to cover your HP. Any other healer has to use combined resources to bring you back to health, but oh wait! There’s also Bloodwhetting and Equilibrium! So, you actually save Healers A LOT MORE after a Holmgang if you’re in middle of Burst or throwing out FC/Inner Chaos on a Crit or Crit Direct Hit.

See what I’m getting at now? No other tank can do this and come out scot free in terms of efficiency like WAR does in terms of self-healing and Invuln efficiency. “Oh, but PLD has a complete Invuln that ignores all damage!” - Two words: SEVEN. MINUTES.

PLD may have an upside in being the king of Mitigation with HS, but it can’t compete with WAR if you’re healing all the damage you just took at a high rate. PLD was more about using your defensives properly anyhow, whereas WAR is about crapping out damage and healing off of that without a hitch.

And people are fine with WAR as it is because it makes their job in particular easier so they can focus on the DPS getting plastered by Raid-wide damage. It isn’t healthy for the Tank Role or in general balance as a whole.

I’ll repeat again what others have said in this thread: No Tank can be God. I dealt with WAR being God for 3 expansions straight since Heavensward. It does not need to be God another Expansion. Nerf its healing and Tank Healing, and we’ll have a healthier balance in general so we don’t get yet another Savage Tier clear by #OnlyWARs.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

WAR wouldn't be any different. Just need topped off faster after the 1st tentacle hit. Pretty much it.

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P12SP2 is not a particularly exciting example, but WAR solo tanks the fight and takes both sets of Palladian Grasps. There was actually another potential use for invuln to bypass cross tethers during UAV2 if you need it, but you would have been unlikely to see that phase at 15% Echo.

Looking at the big picture, you need to ask yourself about the ongoing impact invulns are having on fight design, especially when players consistently find uses for them even outside of tankbusters. That in itself should make the devs cautious in terms of their availability and recast balance. That's especially important when there are two tanks present, each with their own invuln.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I’ve raided with a WAR in EX and Savage, and yes - I will agree to it not being as blatant. However, when we make comparisons between WAR/PLD(as we technically should given the utilities they share nearly) one of the things I will hit is self-healing, as that is the focus of this thread.

WAR having Bloodwhetting available every 25s means someone can bank 2 FCs to heal for close to 50k HP by themselves on Siingle Target(which is similar to what PLD can heal for off of their Confiteor Combo barring Crits).

When it does have to Tank, it already has Equilibrium(which not only heals, but Regens) and Thrill for eHP or just an overall healing buff since it also heals the HP you gain for the duration.

In regards to Shake it Off(Over Time) however it is unwarranted. This heavily reminds me of how WAR had it changed abruptly mid-expansion back in Stormblood to a Shield and drove up controversy(due to PLD having the AoE Shield at the time) and drove it to being 100% used.

This is technically what we call power creep, and it’s the situation we’re in right now unless they fix it in Dawntrail.

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in what scenario is 2gcd's under bloodwhetting ever healing for 50k hp

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Originally Posted by DiscoPug

in what scenario is 2gcd's under bloodwhetting ever healing for 50k hp

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Thrill+guaranteed crits should net you somewhere close to that in a raid yeah.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Thrill+guaranteed crits should net you somewhere close to that in a raid yeah.

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Idk about that one. The highest recorded Bloodwhetting heal in Anabaseios seems to be around 16500 in a single hit, regardless of any +healing received buffs. You're not getting 50k in 2 GCDs with that.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Idk about that one. The highest recorded Bloodwhetting heal in Anabaseios seems to be around 16500 in a single hit, regardless of any +healing received buffs. You're not getting 50k in 2 GCDs with that.

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I'll go over it when i get home. Either way, guaranteed crits+Thrill in a raid setting are nuts. Especially when you slap on some external buffs.

How many times has WAR been used to straight up cheese mechanics this expansion. If they are keeping all tank damage the same then we should see the other tanks get major improvements to keep up with WAR.

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Originally Posted by Derio

How many times has WAR been used to straight up cheese mechanics this expansion. If they are keeping all tank damage the same then we should see the other tanks get major improvements to keep up with WAR.

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But any semblance of advantage any tank has over WAR, the spoiled children throw tantrums and they end up getting over-adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Idk about that one. The highest recorded Bloodwhetting heal in Anabaseios seems to be around 16500 in a single hit, regardless of any +healing received buffs. You're not getting 50k in 2 GCDs with that.

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Yeah that doesn't sound right. My fell cleaves on a dummy are healing me for 15.5k without a party or external buffs.
Where did you get the ''highest recorded bloodhwetting'' from?

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Thrill+guaranteed crits should net you somewhere close to that in a raid yeah.

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"Thrill of Battle (+20%)
Affects Storm's Path's healing.
Affects Shake it Off's healing.
Affects Equilibrium's main heal and the HoT.
Does affect the Bloodwhetting shield, but not Nascent Flash shield.
Does NOT affect Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash heals.
Weird like that." -The Balance

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

"Thrill of Battle (+20%)
Affects Storm's Path's healing.
Affects Shake it Off's healing.
Affects Equilibrium's main heal and the HoT.
Does affect the Bloodwhetting shield, but not Nascent Flash shield.
Does NOT affect Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash heals.
Weird like that." -The Balance

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I had to double check, but you're right. Apparently it's true, thrill does not affect BW.
The healing is still stupidly high though.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I had to double check, but you're right. Apparently it's true, thrill does not affect BW.
The healing is still stupidly high though.

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50k was what I’ve seen overall heal amount be since my WAR did it during burst to save Healers resources when they were coming off a Res in P12S(which happened to be timed with Burst) so essentially instead of 2 you’re getting 4 since the duration is 4 GCDs+any other oGCDs you weave in since Bloodwhetting takes those into account.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

50k was what I’ve seen overall heal amount be since my WAR did it during burst to save Healers resources when they were coming off a Res in P12S(which happened to be timed with Burst) so essentially instead of 2 you’re getting 4 since the duration is 4 GCDs+any other oGCDs you weave in since Bloodwhetting takes those into account.

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I get 15.5k+ per GCD on the dummy. (Still not benefiting from external buffs or a 5%party buff)
So i guess we're moving the goalpost from hillariously high healing to slightly less, but still hillariously high healing.
Not close to 50k in 2 gcd's, but close to 40k in single target. Bonus points for lining it up with storms path/eye. But that's still ignoring the 10k shield+ and 20% mit.

Nascent is a beast of it's own entirely, because War just double dips.

The thing that sends WAR's healing over the top is the ability to get crit heals imo.
One of the cooler design decisions of WAR is getting to spend infuriate for guaranteed crit heals when you need them, I kinda wish this was baked more into WAR's mits as a whole. Get the fatter HP regen when using stronger attacks and weaker attacks dont heal nearly as much, it make it a cool balancing act of pooling resources for a burst vs spending for more immediate health.

But at the same time just getting crit heals randomly is pretty strong, like imagine if the other tanks just could at a random change have a mitigation that was 2x more effective.
Dont know what I'd change about this, if anything but its something to note.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

50k was what I’ve seen overall heal amount be since my WAR did it during burst to save Healers resources when they were coming off a Res in P12S(which happened to be timed with Burst) so essentially instead of 2 you’re getting 4 since the duration is 4 GCDs+any other oGCDs you weave in since Bloodwhetting takes those into account.

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IR doesn't guarantee a crit on heals, and BW doesn't proc on oGCDs.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

The thing that sends WAR's healing over the top is the ability to get crit heals imo.
One of the cooler design decisions of WAR is getting to spend infuriate for guaranteed crit heals when you need them, I kinda wish this was baked more into WAR's mits as a whole. Get the fatter HP regen when using stronger attacks and weaker attacks dont heal nearly as much, it make it a cool balancing act of pooling resources for a burst vs spending for more immediate health.

But at the same time just getting crit heals randomly is pretty strong, like imagine if the other tanks just could at a random change have a mitigation that was 2x more effective.
Dont know what I'd change about this, if anything but its something to note.

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I think the biggest problem with having a job that tanks and heals is how readily available it is in it's current form.
The healing wouldn't be so eggregious if War had actual downtimes on it's healing.
In it's current form, War is an omni job.
The way they kept TBN's cooldown in check was by setting up a fail state where it makes you lose damage if spammed.
They buffed all the short tank cooldowns to the level of TBN's but without any of the downsides that keep it in check.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

IR doesn't guarantee a crit on heals, and BW doesn't proc on oGCDs.

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Nascent Chaos and primal rend guarantee crit heals.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Nascent Chaos and primal rend guarantee crit heals.

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I am aware. I was specifically replying to the part about using it during burst, and the erroneous and out of date statement that oGCDs procced the BW effect. The individual I was replying to by all given indications is using BW as though it were ShB Nascent Flash. An appearance which I find most irksome as they seem to be claiming authority on BW, when they have been demonstrably incorrect on multiple points about BW's basic functions.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

I am aware. I was specifically replying to the part about using it during burst, and the erroneous and out of date statement that oGCDs procced the BW effect. The individual I was replying to by all given indications is using BW as though it were ShB Nascent Flash. An appearance which I find most irksome as they seem to be claiming authority on BW, when they have been demonstrably incorrect on multiple points about BW's basic functions.

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Fair. Yeah, BW does not proc off of OGCD's.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Thrill+guaranteed crits should net you somewhere close to that in a raid yeah.

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Thrill doesn't affect Nascent/Bloodwhetting heals, fell cleaves even under IR do not force crit heals unlike Inner chaos & Primal rend, I have zero idea what your on about

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Originally Posted by DiscoPug

Thrill doesn't affect Nascent/Bloodwhetting heals, fell cleaves even under IR do not force crit heals unlike Inner chaos & Primal rend, I have zero idea what your on about

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Yes, the other poster already mentioned that and i already conceded that after testing.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

I am aware. I was specifically replying to the part about using it during burst, and the erroneous and out of date statement that oGCDs procced the BW effect. The individual I was replying to by all given indications is using BW as though it were ShB Nascent Flash. An appearance which I find most irksome as they seem to be claiming authority on BW, when they have been demonstrably incorrect on multiple points about BW's basic functions.

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Sorry. I’ll admit I’m wrong. It’s been a hot minute since I played WAR, but I’ve been turned away from it since other jobs have been more appealing.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

The individual I was replying to by all given indications is using BW as though it were ShB Nascent Flash.

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The significantly better designed version of the skill.

Pretty much any scenario where there are two or more targets WAR is god tier in terms of survivability. In regular single target BW doesnt heal very good. But it does more than that. It provides a small shield. Roughly 17% damage mit when timed properly and most often you are combining this with other tank cooldown for a tank buster so you heal after the damage has been taken.

DRK does not have that, every other tank gets a heal either after or during their 25s cooldown spender. If DRK was top damage tank then we wouldnt complain because that is what we are sacrificing. But its not and most likely will not be in 7.0

So can we put this to bed after I read the entire thread from beginning to end. It appears some people had NO idea how WAR's bloodwhetting worked from the get go, and how it procs it's healing effects.

Hell some didn't even know oGCD's didn't proc a heal. I knew that the first day I tried upheaval + bloodwhetting.

Or that the healing in a single target scenario is just rather.....meh.

Yeah you might get a fat heal from Inner Chaos or Primal Rend....but those are few and far between as they require you to pop bloodwhetting while you have those available. Which from a tanking perspective...I would never pop a mitigation just because I can see a fat heal pop up....even though I'm at 90% HP.

I would save bloodwhetting for a tankbuster, use the mitigation it offers and the heals that come with it. Shared tank buster, pop nascent on my OT. Both get heals. Maybe I hit rampart. The choice is mine.

Same goes for holmgang...I get the fact that it is on a short cooldown...this last tier...maybe 1 fight require me to hit that more then once per fight (p11s). Other then that....it just sits there off cooldown...because I don't need it.

WAR is perfectly fine...and I would argue that it's not the greatest tank in the game...I think it has better aspects then it's contemporaries....but definitely NOT the best tank given my experience. I would say it's the easiest to play, and possibly the most boring as it's incredibly slow. But that's it's thing.

I would say that crown goes to PLD. In terms of tankyness....PLD has the most mits and some of the strongest mits. Also it's self sustain is strong as it's just PART of it's normal rotation. It just lacks damage output compared to the other tanks. Trade off.

That was a backhanded request to further buff WAR. It sure isn't enough.