Glamour restrictions: a hinderance to creativity

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Cape of Happiness is really tattered at the edges and the Moonward one is not what I think about capes that go all the way to the ankle.

You could rebuke most of the examples, but never get to a close result when the glamour enthusiasts are asking for this because how they want to fine-tune the ensembles, as opposed to getting alternatives that aren't quite there.

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so what current gear with capes that you would use?
huh. The female version of the deepshadow gear actually isn't tattered.

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Originally Posted by hagare

so what current gear with capes that you would use?
huh.

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Rabanastre Squire chestpice is what comes to my mind with gear with actual long capes, but there are other examples as well that I can't recall the name by heart.

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Originally Posted by hagare

The female version of the deepshadow gear actually isn't tattered.

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I wouldn't be able to use that as I'm a male character.

The Obsolete Android Cloak of Scouting from Nier 3 has a nice tattered cape.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Also, I'm having a hard time with this part of your comment specifically Unless your character linked here is just a maxed out mule and you've fooled us all, you've used the same glamour basically since the beginning of time. However, that outfit is made up of non-class specific items, and there would be no way to tell what job or style you were actually going for. So it's a little hypocritical that you don't want others to have more options for "slapping together whatever works on everything" and using it all the time when that's exactly what you've done for years.

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I used what was available to make a good look. I never said there shouldn't be any All Class glamours. Having some is just fine. This isn't an all-or-nothing type of situation.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I used what was available to make a good look. I never said there shouldn't be any All Class glamours. Having some is just fine. This isn't an all-or-nothing type of situation.

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you dont look like a warrior though its kinda ruining my immersion :/

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I used what was available to make a good look. I never said there shouldn't be any All Class glamours. Having some is just fine. This isn't an all-or-nothing type of situation.

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Just a reminder of your original comment:

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Restrictions breed creativity.
Allowing everything ends up with people just slapping together whatever that works on everything.

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Using what you like in a glam is fine, regardless if the pieces are class-specific or not. I don't think most people have an issue with that.

However, I still find it a bit disingenuous that you're pushing for keeping glamour restricted because "restrictions breed creativity" and prevents people from "slapping together whatever works on everything" when your glamour, that you do in fact use on everything, is 100% glam gear and is therefore working outside the bounds of those restrictions that evidently build creativity.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Rabanastre Squire chestpice is what comes to my mind with gear with actual long capes, but there are other examples as well that I can't recall the name by heart.

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huh. Aside from the shape, moonward scouting is actually as long as that chestpiece.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

you dont look like a warrior though its kinda ruining my immersion :/

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Just a reminder of your original comment:


Using what you like in a glam is fine, regardless if the pieces are class-specific or not. I don't think most people have an issue with that.

However, I still find it a bit disingenuous that you're pushing for keeping glamour restricted because "restrictions breed creativity" and prevents people from "slapping together whatever works on everything" when your glamour, that you do in fact use on everything, is 100% glam gear and is therefore working outside the bounds of those restrictions that evidently build creativity.

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Dude's a troll. Stop talking to him.

Look at this thread - just posted now. The NPCs are wearing a mix of casting hats and a fending chest.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ened-Heart-%29

So, why can't we?

Because the team gets to do what it wants with art assets and put together unique combos.

I disagree with restricted glams, as ESO showed the world that mixing gear don't create the same look. Same looks comes form that some outfits is just better than others and no matter the restrictions in place, some people flocks the best no matter (cough the 2b legs). People already stop wearing the street wear to death and it was common for a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Kukra

I disagree with restricted glams, as ESO showed the world that mixing gear don't create the same look. Same looks comes form that some outfits is just better than others and no matter the restrictions in place, some people flocks the best no matter (cough the 2b legs). People already stop wearing the street wear to death and it was common for a few weeks.

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Pretty much this. There's a handful of pieces that end up getting used in half my plates because all the other options are locked to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by hfang

this is doubly frustrating to me, because it's not even a gatherer coat (some earlier gatherer pieces of gear were for 'All classes'), but hers is dragoon gear of all things. just stupid

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Belatedly, I've got good news for you in this one specific case: the model is in fact also both a Crafter jacket and a Gatherer jacket, both of which have no class restrictions.

They are, of course, slightly different colors than the Hussar Jackcoat, but -- unlike the Hussar Jackcoat -- can be dyed.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

I honestly don't buy technical limitations as the reason, anyway. In terms of modeling, the NPC's have the same parameters as us(with a handful of obvious exceptions). They don't make custom versions of gear models for every NPC in the game.

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It's not, I think, that gear models would need to be changed; as you note, NPCs can wear gear from two different jobs while being a third job entirely, because they have no 'gear restrictions' that enforce what they can or can't equip. (And also because, so far as I know, gear stats are not used for NPCs; they just have innate stat values for each instance they might need to engage in combat in.)

Where it becomes a problem is that, so far as I know, the glamour basically checks the base level of the item... but where it checks the job restrictions, the normal permissions are overriden by the glamoured item.

Hey, that seems like an easy fix, right? Just change it so it only pays attention to the job restrictions of the actual gear, just like it does with level requirements.

...but now that means if you glamour something as artifact gear, you can wear it on a job that isn't the one it's AF gear for. So how do you solve that? Do you just forbid artifact gear from being used for glamours? That seems unfortunate; if someone's only tank is a Gunbreaker and they want to use the level 90 AF gear (which is frankly S-tier) on top of their Fending set, they should certainly be able to. But trying to special case restrictions for just artifact gear is likely a thorny situation to tackle.

It also has implications where if you make things utterly unlocked in that fashion, you now can glamour fending gear onto things even if you don't have a single tank even unlocked.

So, okay, you make it check against 'do you have any job that can wear this', but I strongly suspect there's some wackiness on the server side -- having worked on an MMO, my experience is there's always some wackiness on the server side -- that makes it more complicated than we'd think to query whether or not you can equip gear for jobs you aren't even playing at the moment.

Etc.

I suspect if they were willing to just throw any restrictions -- including on AF gear -- out the window, it would be quite doable from a technical standpoint. But they demonstrably have drawn a hard line in the sand on artifact gear, and I suspect that is the key sticking point to why we don't get this.

Of course, none of which changes the fact that I too would love to have the swallowskin gathering coat or the AR-Caean crafting vest be something I could use in glamours for other jobs. Just because I can see from a developer standpoint why it would be a headache doesn't mean that from a player standpoint I can't also hope they eventually do it.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Pretty much this. There's a handful of pieces that end up getting used in half my plates because all the other options are locked to other jobs.

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I wonder if people could elaborate more on this rhetoric of "Unrestricted glams creating the same look" because, let's say: a Casting piece is coveted as the creme-de-la-creme of the glam world, the hot wind of the season, the reason why this thread exists... Yet, I don't see every caster wearing the same thing. If we had people flocking towards wearing the same thing, we'd see more homogenity within the armor groups.

The irony of it all is that the items that people DO gravitate towards (i.e. 2B boots, valentione waistcoat, etc) are already free to use cosmetic items.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I wonder if people could elaborate more on this rhetoric of "Unrestricted glams creating the same look" because, let's say: a Casting piece is coveted as the creme-de-la-creme of the glam world, the hot wind of the season, the reason why this thread exists... Yet, I don't see every caster wearing the same thing. If we had people flocking towards wearing the same thing, we'd see more homogenity within the armor groups.

The irony of it all is that the items that people DO gravitate towards (i.e. 2B boots, valentione waistcoat, etc) are already free to use cosmetic items.

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That was kind of the point...

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

That was kind of the point...

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Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, but rather adding up to it.

I'm yet to see a really solid argument against the idea, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Because the team gets to do what it wants with art assets and put together unique combos.

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The designers should be under the same restriction as the players with stiff penalties for their managers should an NPC wearing an impossible set get released. I know, completely unlikely but imagine how fast they'd change their tune about job locking.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Because the team gets to do what it wants with art assets and put together unique combos.

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so do restrictions breed creativity or is it good to ignore restrictions to be more creative when it comes to character design?
which is it?

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

so do restrictions breed creativity or is it good to ignore restrictions to be more creative when it comes to character design?
which is it?

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Coming back to the root of the question... why a player is okay with a NPC using an impossible mix of items, but will flip tables when it's a player?

Because if it's the possibility of creating stupid sets? (to somehow damage the viewer's immersion)... I think every "stupid gear" already is available as a free glam.

It's because of tanks wearing caster robes? (to somehow damage the viewer's immersion)... There are dozens of options, some of them are even Fending items.

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

The designers should be under the same restriction as the players with stiff penalties for their managers should an NPC wearing an impossible set get released. I know, completely unlikely but imagine how fast they'd change their tune about job locking.

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They might change nothing, just adapt to picking job-permitted glamours for the NPCs.

And anyway, if the system does let them put anything on NPCs while having complications for allowing players to do the same, I'd still prefer they put whatever they think suits the character. Maybe in future we can convince them to release a whole lot of "[Character]'s outfit" glamours that are just all-class versions of the restricted gear they're wearing.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, but rather adding up to it.

I'm yet to see a really solid argument against the idea, to be honest.

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Neither have I. Just about every viewpoint I've seen against it has been myopic at best.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

The irony of it all is that the items that people DO gravitate towards (i.e. 2B boots, valentione waistcoat, etc) are already free to use cosmetic items.

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I suspect part of the reason for this is many people going "oh, hey, unrestricted glamour! I can make a glam that doesn't look like every other healer/tank/whatever set out there!"

(I mean, the other part of it is that whenever there's a new glamour item that can be used everywhere, people start to look at it and try to figure out what they can do with it. Combine with the previous, especially since everyone will do that at the same time when the glamour lands...)

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

The designers should be under the same restriction as the players with stiff penalties for their managers should an NPC wearing an impossible set get released. I know, completely unlikely but imagine how fast they'd change their tune about job locking.

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That makes no sense and shows little understanding of how things work on the developer side. Every piece of gear is essentially two parts: the stats and the look assigned to it.

No restrictions are being ignored where none exist.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

That makes no sense and shows little understanding of how things work on the developer side.

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Pot, meet kettle.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Pot, meet kettle.

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Not at all. I never make claims to be an expert like ya'll do. I'm not looking through the lens of the end product, but how it comes together. Or are you trying to honestly tell me every clothing item the art team makes has stats set by the very artist that made it? If you would actually try to counter my point, please say more than this terse trite nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Not at all. I never make claims to be an expert like ya'll do. I'm not looking through the lens of the end product, but how it comes together. Or are you trying to honestly tell me every clothing item the art team makes has stats set by the very artist that made it? If you would actually try to counter my point, please say more than this terse trite nonsense.

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All items in the game have an ID assigned to them, even the ones NPCs wear. They just reuse existing items in most cases. There's no "assigning stats" or whatever.

We can actually look up the items the NPCs are wearing by their id and data, and they often straight up wear conflicting items according to the item ids. They just ignore the restrictions by forcing them to wear it. NPCs aren't subject to the same rules players have. They don't even change gear, for starters.

I dont disagree overall, but I also feel if you just let someone glam any item of any job to anything, it would take away a big reason for people to lvl alt jobs. Id pose a better option would be a system that rewards people who go out of their way to lvl alt jobs with the ability to have a greater variety of glams. AKA, if I have a tank at lvl 50, I can use any tank item that is lvl 50 and under to glam on any job, however I wouldnt be able to use lvl 80 tank glams on anything else till I have at least one tanking job at 80.

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Originally Posted by Treesus

I dont disagree overall, but I also feel if you just let someone glam any item of any job to anything, it would take away a big reason for people to lvl alt jobs. Id pose a better option would be a system that rewards people who go out of their way to lvl alt jobs with the ability to have a greater variety of glams. AKA, if I have a tank at lvl 50, I can use any tank item that is lvl 50 and under to glam on any job, however I wouldnt be able to use lvl 80 tank glams on anything else till I have at least one tanking job at 80.

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wow a way to replace the cross class skill incentive that was removed 3 expansions ago with something that wont make you feel like tearing your hair out

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

wow a way to replace the cross class skill incentive that was removed 3 expansions ago with something that wont make you feel like tearing your hair out

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Ya know I dint even think of it like that, but yeah also a good point. I just feel like lvling alt jobs should have more...incentive. I love doing it to an extent, but outside of the shadowbringers reward most of them are...pretty lame. Allowing people to glam anything by at least having one job that uses that piece lvled seems like it would just give all the incentive people would need. At worst people would have to waist a bit of time lvling the newest job in that group, at best it would get people to broaden their horizons when it comes to jobs and give people a really useful QoL reward for it.

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Originally Posted by Treesus

I dont disagree overall, but I also feel if you just let someone glam any item of any job to anything, it would take away a big reason for people to lvl alt jobs. Id pose a better option would be a system that rewards people who go out of their way to lvl alt jobs with the ability to have a greater variety of glams. AKA, if I have a tank at lvl 50, I can use any tank item that is lvl 50 and under to glam on any job, however I wouldnt be able to use lvl 80 tank glams on anything else till I have at least one tanking job at 80.

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I actually think this implementation would be great and probably the ideal one. It fits in with the rest of the design of the game, too.

My only fear is asking SE to redesign how it works since they are already seemingly reluctant to do it. No sense giving them even more excuses like the lazy weapon excuse no one was even asking for.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Not at all. I never make claims to be an expert like ya'll do. I'm not looking through the lens of the end product, but how it comes together. Or are you trying to honestly tell me every clothing item the art team makes has stats set by the very artist that made it? If you would actually try to counter my point, please say more than this terse trite nonsense.

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Yeah, your pretentious dismissal of everyone who happens to disagree with you is being purely objective.
/s

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Originally Posted by Treesus

but I also feel if you just let someone glam any item of any job to anything, it would take away a big reason for people to lvl alt jobs.

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On the contrary. If I could glam cross-job, I'd be inclined to level every job in the game.

One can disagree but I feel restrictions help facilitate creativity. Makes one look for creative ways to create the outfit they desire. I wish SE would add more race / gender / class items. I would love for higher level cultural attire for each race and clan within the race.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Yeah, your pretentious dismissal of everyone who happens to disagree with you is being purely objective.
/s



On the contrary. If I could glam cross-job, I'd be inclined to level every job in the game.

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Thats exactly what I was saying, using cross job glaming as a reward for people who take the time to lvl alt jobs. I dont think just allowing everyone to cross job glam right off the bat is the best option, but putting it behind just having at least one of that type of job lvled to throw around glams from its set on anything else would be a great incentive to just get people to try other job groups. Plus it actually gives a better tangible reward for people who put in the effort then whatever that all lvl 90 jobs reward is.

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Originally Posted by Treesus

Thats exactly what I was saying, using cross job glaming as a reward for people who take the time to lvl alt jobs. I dont think just allowing everyone to cross job glam right off the bat is the best option, but putting it behind just having at least one of that type of job lvled to throw around glams from its set on anything else would be a great incentive to just get people to try other job groups. Plus it actually gives a better tangible reward for people who put in the effort then whatever that all lvl 90 jobs reward is.

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That's what basically everyone has been asking for. Let us cross-glam every piece (except for AF gear) only after you've leveled the job for it to the level of the item. If you can put it on as the actual job then let us also glam it onto other jobs.

I've been playing this game and visiting this forum for around 7 years now and this has been a topic that has constantly been brought up. Back then when Yoshi was responding to it, the excuse originally was the fact that the game's dreaded "spaghetti code" was the cause of the exclusion of cross-class glams. Later more ridiculous reasons like, "I don't want players confusing the tank with a healer" or "I don't want tanks in bikinis" began to surface in some of the articles and interviews.

Later players began to specifically request this asking for non-AF gear to be cross-glamed. Instead the team opted to start creating skins like the lv60 Sky Pirate gear for all jobs stating that it was less work for the team or something like that.

At this point, I've given up honestly. I don't know what the true reason is for Yoshi being so insistent on not wanting to implement a feature like that but as I stated above, 7 years and this still hasn't happened and I don't see it being a thing...ever.

And don't get me wrong, as a glamor nut, I would absolutely LOVE a feature like this.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

One can disagree but I feel restrictions help facilitate creativity. Makes one look for creative ways to create the outfit they desire. I wish SE would add more race / gender / class items. I would love for higher level cultural attire for each race and clan within the race.

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That's great and all when you're just looking to achieve a general silhouette. I can think of many ways to make a plated healer... Or a Paladin that looks like it's a Dancer in a distance. XIV's glamouring already let you do that.

But then, the argument falls short when it comes to more passionate glamour users that want a bit more intricate design options with mix and matching. For example, a tank not being able to have the chestpiece - but with a much better dyeing pattern - that a Dragoon uses, even though it's literally the same item model. Or a caster not being able to wear the Late Allagan beret that comes with a built in microphone+earsets that the healer has, but there is literally nothing else in that game that looks like that.

Maybe you want your sleeves cut short for a simpler design? Well, too bad that the only 3 options that sort of do that are Caster, Scouting and Healing respectively.

Also, someone that sees the restrictions as some sort of token -putting their creative brain to achieve hard-to-get silhouettes - would be able to take that much further with less restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

One can disagree but I feel restrictions help facilitate creativity. Makes one look for creative ways to create the outfit they desire. I wish SE would add more race / gender / class items. I would love for higher level cultural attire for each race and clan within the race.

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It seems that only people who inherently have no creativity say this.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

But then, the argument falls short when it comes to more passionate glamour users that want a bit more intricate design options with mix and matching. For example, a tank not being able to have the chestpiece - but with a much better dyeing pattern - that a Dragoon uses, even though it's literally the same item model. Or a caster not being able to wear the Late Allagan beret that comes with a built in microphone+earsets that the healer has, but there is literally nothing else in that game that looks like that.

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This has always been my #1 reason against restrictions. Imagine having the choice between all 7 roles (Fending, Maiming, Striking, Scouting, Aiming, Casting and Healing) instead of just one per set. In most cases the sets don't even even carry a job's silhouette (Imperial/Palaka/Warg/etc). In fact, more often than not, one role's set can look great on everything. There's also being able to use another role's gloves/boots which would be super useful.

Don't get me started on headgear... How do you justify an eyepatch being role-restricted ?

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

It seems that only people who inherently have no creativity say this.

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Whoever supports glamour restrictions has never actually thought about the potential of mixing and matching gear. I can't imagine actually caring about glamour and still defending the way it currently works. Especially when multiple other games like ESO have absolute freedom. If people don't want more options, that's their problem, they can keep using the same gear. Just let me have more freedom.

Quit assuming those of us who aren't fully on board are fully against an idea. If they ever go that route, it certainly won't be the end of the world.

Freedom to create and creativity are two different things. Everyone can create photos, but not everyone is actually good at it, especially when environmental restrictions come into play. Creativity was (allegedly) the main point of this thread and the example presented at the start is still so lacking in that respect. I find it interesting that there's been little to no effort since then to showcase what could be done. You could be showing this creativity and potentially wowing the devs into considering lifted restrictions, but you want to get into petty battles with those who don't agree with you, lobbing cliches about pots and kettles.

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Originally Posted by Siddiax

This has always been my #1 reason against restrictions. Imagine having the choice between all 7 roles (Fending, Maiming, Striking, Scouting, Aiming, Casting and Healing) instead of just one per set. In most cases the sets don't even even carry a job's silhouette (Imperial/Palaka/Warg/etc). In fact, more often than not, one role's set can look great on everything. There's also being able to use another role's gloves/boots which would be super useful.

Don't get me started on headgear... How do you justify an eyepatch being role-restricted ?

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I feel that ever since HW, the item designers started to worry more about the sets revolving more around a specific theme (their place of origin) rather than following the premises of plate=tank, dress=caster, etc. All it takes is a quick eye-glance around a website like Eorzea Collection to objectively see this fact. There are instances of the armor weights following closely what they're supposed to (i.e. Moonward) but it honestly feels like that's not the norm when we look at the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by Siddiax

People supporting glamour restrictions have never actually thought about the potential of mixing and matching gear. I can't imagine actually caring about glamour and still defending the way it currently works. Especially when multiple other games like ESO that have absolute freedom. If they don't want more options, that's their problem, they can keep using the same gear. Just let me have more freedom.

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All and all, I can't see how the system no longer being so restrictive would affect negatively the preachers of "Limitations breed creativity" rhetoric. If their creative potential is so big with limitations, imagine what those people could come up with being able to access more combinations than before (not being sarcastic).