More unneccesary nerfs to older content

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Disappointing patch
Square isn't even trying anymore. No competition so no need to try :~)

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Well they do have competition between Lost Ark. A lot of people seem to like that game now despite the pay to win aspects. Which is sad, a game that has such a predatory business model still has more appeal than current FFXIV and WoW.

No king rules forever, and it seems FFXIV's reign was very short lived.

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Originally Posted by Juun

To those complaining when was the last time you sat down and went to do these duties?

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last week actually

No fun allowed.
New people shouldn't die in this game.
New people shouldn't learn mechanics or "get good".
New people needs both of their hands handled by developers and veterans the entire way up to EW ( if they didn't quit of boredom before)
New people need less skills on their hotbar because gaming anxiety.
New people need less rotations and gear progression
New people need less social interaction in a MMO.
New people needs to be compensated on equal levels than those pesky try harders

The fact that I could not revive party members in those fights, especially newer players, has led to no small amount of wipes in the 8 years I've played this game. This is a functional change for the best, those players aren't learning anything by being completely removed for the entire remainder of the fight if they fall off. Goodness.

You will never see a fight in this game again where falling off = no more raises for the rest of the fight. It was unfun, especially if it was a new healer or tank that fell off. Difficulty could come from other sources that were nowhere near as punishing for the individual player as well as extremely annoying for those of us who have to then carry what remains of the group.

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Originally Posted by Syln

The Sohr Khai thing was a fun gimmick more than anything, it's just weird to chose to take it away.

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It likely will have to do with trusts.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

I disagree. Not all players have problems with things others have problems with. For example, I personally like what they've done with jobs and will express my thoughts that the changes aren't a bad thing. I respect that others have different opinions; especially folks like us who've been here for a long time as we've seen what the game's been and the changes made over time. As far as ignoring problems, that may or may not be the case. I personally love the Ward system we have for housing and will defend it, but I also have a *significant* issue with them keeping them limited while also not upgrading the apartment system to accommodate people wanting a house-sized space to decorate. However; I realize the team have limited amounts of time to do things and that they address things if/when they can, such as the host of QoL changes this coming patch. Understanding this makes it a whole lot easier to have empathy for the dev team, accept the things I can't change, and keep my mouth shut.

I've told many people that if they don't enjoy this game then it would be in their best interest to find a different one. Hobbies are something that's done purely for the enjoyment of doing it. If the enjoyment's not there, then find a different activity you derive joy from doing. It's the same thing with games, not all games are for all people and often times finding a different one to play when bored or exhausted with the current one is a good option. I can't stand FPS, so I don't play them. I do enjoy single player and MMORPGs so I play them. Six years ago I went on a huge Skyrim bender and played it day in and day out for the better part of six months. It's a great game and I loved the mods I used, but eventually I wasn't enjoying it so I came back to XIV.

I'd argue that a good portion of people who tell others to find a different game if they don't like this one enough aren't being malicious, but are actually suggesting something that's healthy for the other player. Never once have I said that to someone with anything but helpful intent based on my own experience with MMOs over the decades.

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I'm not even going to try to explain to you how the mentality of "if you're dissatisfied with what we get, then leave" is not only unhelpful to both the person who is unhappy and the dev team who will lose players without knowing why, but also an incredibly backwards and toxic mindset no matter how 'genuine and nice' you think you're being when suggesting it.

People express dissatisfaction because they want to play this game, and want the devs to know what could be done to improve their enjoyment of it so that they will keep playing it. Telling them to just leave and find something else is incredibly rude and dismissive, at best.

Cool, so they changed old trials to match how trials since the middle of HW have worked. To me that is a QoL change so that when all my dps get knocked off in titan hard the fight doesn't take forever to finish now. As for the platform mechanics, I have run Sohr Khai more than a couple times lately and I barely even notice the platforms disappearing. All that ends up happening is you dodge the big aoe on the ground, and just jump to where the boss is. Maybe it was visually cool or something but the mechanics of it I don't think really even matter.

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Originally Posted by hagare

then quit *shrug*
this ain't a souls game. You won't win even after withstanding torture xD

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Why do you losers always say this?
At least once per page on any thread with a complaint some one says "quit the game, this isn't dark souls". Like it is some clever excuse as to why the game can't have any sort of punishment for dying or difficulty spikes, which is the most common thing in video games.

The problem with these kinds of adjustments is the logic behind them has an overwhelming tendency to be self-perpetuating. You end up with a much larger portion of the community grossly unprepared for current content which leads to more cries for nerfs which leads to more unpreparedness and so on and so forth with more dumbing down of the whole experience until all you have left is world of warcraft. Even before all the controversy that game had been bleeding players ever since the release of cataclysm for this very reason. I really like it here and if FFXIV goes down the same path I'll probably give up on MMO's for good.

I dont think this is a bad thing. Game clearly allows for ressing as a combat mechanic. How does it make any sense that u can be revived even though u r impaled by several thorns in p4s? It was an unnecessary complication.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

The problem with these kinds of adjustments is the logic behind them has an overwhelming tendency to be self-perpetuating. You end up with a much larger portion of the community grossly unprepared for current content which leads to more cries for nerfs which leads to more unpreparedness and so on and so forth with more dumbing down of the whole experience until all you have left is world of warcraft. Even before all the controversy that game had been bleeding players ever since the release of cataclysm for this very reason. I really like it here and if FFXIV goes down the same path I'll probably give up on MMO's for good.

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There are no fights in FFXIV beyond Heavensward where falling off the edge means you can no longer be revived. That mechanic prepares them for nothing. When they fall off, they will be KOed and then can be revived, as is the case for every other trial fight. Those earlier fights are boring agreed, but the penalty for falling off was more of a nuisance for everyone else who had to make up the weight.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

There are no fights in FFXIV beyond Heavensward where falling off the edge means you can no longer be revived. That mechanic prepares them for nothing. When they fall off, they will be KOed and then can be revived, as is the case for every other trial fight. Those earlier fights are boring agreed, but the penalty for falling off was more of a nuisance for everyone else who had to make up the weight.

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I didn't realize that was the case since It's been so long since I've personally seen anyone die on those encounters.

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Originally Posted by Juun

To those complaining when was the last time you sat down and went to do these duties?

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Yesterday, since they come up in roulettes on a not infrequent basis.

The revive after fall mechanic is in every content after HW. No reason for not have them

I'm not sure the other ones, Sohr Khai seemed easier with the drop out but, well. The revive is important, it is consistent now

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

People express dissatisfaction because they want to play this game, and want the devs to know what could be done to improve their enjoyment of it so that they will keep playing it. Telling them to just leave and find something else is incredibly rude and dismissive, at best.

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I'm all for people expressing their desires for change, I don't believe I said anything close to being against that. I want to play the game and I've expressed ways for the team to make changes to things that I believe will improve it. There's a difference between not enjoying and not liking something and expressing discontent and requesting changes. If someone's not enjoying or liking an activity specifically made to like and enjoy the time spent doing it then yes, they should find a hobby activity that they do like and enjoy. If someone wants to play this game and wants to express dissatisfaction with it, by all means, it's within a customer's right to do so. Who knows, the change may actually be made.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

It was removed most likely due to Trust AI and the need to make decisions where to jump etc. Probably pretty hard to program otherwise.

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Yep, that's my assumption as to why a lot of these changes were made. It was less to make the fights/dungeons easier and more to make them actually doable with the Trust AI. Even the second boss in Vigil seems like it would be a mess to properly program the Trust AI to handle. That they may be easier is just a side effect (though the platforms staying but Cauterize in Sohr Kai doing more damage does indicate to me that they did at least consider what impact the changes would have on difficulty).

inconsequential change that's good for the game (because being new and not being able to play the game after being hit by landslide) isn't fun. we already had our perma-death """"""fun"""""" on PF with Titan Unreal and Leviathan Unreal, who cares?

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

People express dissatisfaction because they want to play this game, and want the devs to know what could be done to improve their enjoyment of it so that they will keep playing it. Telling them to just leave and find something else is incredibly rude and dismissive, at best.

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Of course, you're not at all wrong. But if it's a case where someone has been complaining about the game for literal years and has said the game has been going downhill for literal years, someone who says the developers have lied and ignored player feedback for years, etc. then I don't think it's really all that out of step to suggest that maybe they should find something else to do with their time and money. I can understand wanting to stick something out for a bit and see if your complaints get addressed, especially if you really do love it or want to love it, but after some point you just have to face reality, give it up and move on. Some players on these forums are of the opinion that the game hasn't been good since HeavensWard.. which is, what, 6 years ago now? In their opinion the game has actually been "bad" or at least on a downward slide for longer than it's been "good." There's "Hopium" and then there's deliberately choosing to continue beating your head against a 6 foot thick brick wall hoping it will just up and decide to move one day.

Permadeath is w/e. It's weird that they reversed course on it though, given that it was identified as an 'iconic' part of Titan when unreal came out fairly recently.

Things like Sohr Khai on the other hand worry me. Removing a bosses iconic mechanic to ostensibly make the fight trust compatible is not a good sign. I've always figured trusts were the reason the EW trial 2 was so uninteresting, and it's beginning to look more and more like Trusts create additional design limitations for encounters that the non-trust playerbase are going to have to deal with.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Permadeath is w/e. It's weird that they reversed course on it though, given that it was identified as an 'iconic' part of Titan when unreal came out fairly recently.

Things like Sohr Khai on the other hand worry me. Removing a bosses iconic mechanic to ostensibly make the fight trust compatible is not a good sign. I've always figured trusts were the reason the EW trial 2 was so uninteresting, and it's beginning to look more and more like Trusts create additional design limitations for encounters that the non-trust playerbase are going to have to deal with.

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Yep... it's beginning to look like rather than using them as an opportunity to introduce optional easier modes for the sake of story completion, so that the normal modes aren't so trivial, they're instead dumbing down normal content (further) to accommodate them... which is not great.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Just go allllllll in and have cutscene play showing you completing the dungeon then boom you auto win. Now everybody happy!

Friend said this.. I found it most amusing and depressing at same time.

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Yeah and if you don't like it, this is apparently the rehearsed answer:

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Originally Posted by hagare

then quit *shrug*
this ain't a souls game. You won't win even after withstanding torture xD

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Permadeath is w/e. It's weird that they reversed course on it though, given that it was identified as an 'iconic' part of Titan when unreal came out fairly recently.

Things like Sohr Khai on the other hand worry me. Removing a bosses iconic mechanic to ostensibly make the fight trust compatible is not a good sign. I've always figured trusts were the reason the EW trial 2 was so uninteresting, and it's beginning to look more and more like Trusts create additional design limitations for encounters that the non-trust playerbase are going to have to deal with.

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Yet somehow actual players manage to die more than trusts. It's funny how it works isn't it

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

I'm all for people expressing their desires for change, I don't believe I said anything close to being against that. I want to play the game and I've expressed ways for the team to make changes to things that I believe will improve it. There's a difference between not enjoying and not liking something and expressing discontent and requesting changes. If someone's not enjoying or liking an activity specifically made to like and enjoy the time spent doing it then yes, they should find a hobby activity that they do like and enjoy. If someone wants to play this game and wants to express dissatisfaction with it, by all means, it's within a customer's right to do so. Who knows, the change may actually be made.

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"You can express dissatisfaction, but you also should leave the game if you aren't enjoying it, even though you're expressing your dissatisfaction in the hopes that things will be improved so you enjoy playing it again because you want to keep playing it."

If you can't understand how backwards that thinking is, I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore. You or that other poster parroting the same thing you did.

Absolutely ridiculous that people's only response to dissatisfied, long-term fans of this game voicing their concerns and unhappiness with the state and direction of things, is "leave and go play something else then, we're perfectly happy and you should find something new if you aren't". This community is an absolute s***show.

I've already left, nearly. I've barely logged in the past month or so because I've been playing other games that actually offer some degree of enjoyment and don't force me to deal with the absolute kindergarten that this playerbase has become over the years. I only log in for scheduled RP (if they want to do it in-game and not over Discord), and for my FC's events which I DM for. I want more reason to log in after a major patch, and I want to stop seeing the content increasingly get easier and easier to the point it isn't engaging to do and the only thing making it 'hard' is the absolute incompetence of people who never bother to learn or improve, and steadily have the game dumbed down even more to the point they genuinely are not even passively improving their skills over time.

I want to play this game as an actual game, not a glorified chatroom and 3D RP landscape!

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Things like Sohr Khai on the other hand worry me. Removing a bosses iconic mechanic to ostensibly make the fight trust compatible is not a good sign. I've always figured trusts were the reason the EW trial 2 was so uninteresting, and it's beginning to look more and more like Trusts create additional design limitations for encounters that the non-trust playerbase are going to have to deal with.

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Yuuuup yup! AI used for NPCs heck even the bosses is nothing but simple task based top to bottom AI. It is incapable of reacting only following set script.

Mechanic (Stack) start >
TrustAI > (Stack) respond >
TrustAI > Move to center

You can see this cause issues especially if the Trust is mid cast because TrustAI > (Cast)Spell takes priority and must resolve before the ai can respond to which ever mechanic. If you notice that Y'shtola appears to eat mechanics with alarming frequency tis her long cast time. Trusts wiped ViolentDestruction during first attempt of Hydaelyn due to being mid attempting to adjust to his current position for waves.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yeah and if you don't like it, this is apparently the rehearsed answer:

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Mah if am feeling the spicy I will perform the patented meme and leave. Nothing productive ever comes of discussing with these ones. Shall never change their minds. Said something many months ago, as much as they would love for us to sequester ourselves away that is not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

Yet somehow actual players manage to die more than trusts. It's funny how it works isn't it

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Which is fricken terrible! It may bring feist when others make mistakes (well, we sound feistier then we are) it also adds variance to the run. Without this variance offered by multiplayer aspect all runs become the same.

Fights like Hydaelyn and Titania are ultimately very clearly scripted dances. I enjoyed both of them and did not find their normal mode mechanics particularly annoying, but the typical duty finder experience with newer players who refuse to pay attention to tells that aren't orange circle=bad is the real issue with them.

As it stands now I do not believe that running things with experienced players such as myself offers a better teaching experience for newer players since I can, unintentionally, carry people who have no idea what they are doing. At the very least when I did some of those trust runs I actually had to sit down and think about where I was messing up, rather than relying on people to just heal through the bad. The result is that I am now more aware of some discreet mechanics and can pick up on things that are less obvious faster.

I forget which streamer I happened to watch but when I saw them run with trusts for the very first time, it was painfully obvious that they had grown far too used to other people making up for their refusal to move on time, which is something you absolutely learn to do in trusts because as a dps its unlikely your trusts will heal you through more than 2-3 vuln stacks.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

I want to play this game as an actual game, not a glorified chatroom and 3D RP landscape!

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Very well said - good post.

Quite sad about the dungeon and Hraesvelgr stuff. ARR dungeons had neat gimmicks going for them in design, plus they definitely felt with a bigger sense of place within the world which made them memorable for me, after that they became more linear, but some of HW and SB dungeons still had a couple of things here and there to try to break the idea that you were essentially just walking forward.

The Hraesvelgr stuff is worrying for main content, never connected the idea that Trusts would make stuff much more simpler due to the AI limitations but it makes sense, there is barely anything that has felt as challenging or engaging, or even slightly elevate the complexity for main story dungeons and trials since ShB, so if everything is designed to be able to be played with trusts at some point, we'll just end up having interesting mechanics in raids, sets a bad precedent.

Good on perma death changing. It was bad design anyway. That's why we still have platform fights but they stopped doing perma death. There's nothing fun or challenging about sliding off and getting carried the rest of the fight. It just puts undue stress on the other players and the person who slid off learns nothing. It also limits the ability for a team to recover from errors, increasing the likelihood that there will be a total wipe and people will start to bail. This is a good change.

For Stone Vigil and Sohr Khai, those are both MSQ dungeons. They probably had to make some adjustments for Trust AI.

And let's be real here, when is the last time you saw someone do the cannons in SV? I've gotten it in Leveling a lot recently and unless I interact with them, the other players just ignore them. I'll be happy if they managed to get Trusts to react to them so I actually see someone using them again.

It's easy to be against these changes when you probably never risk queueing the content.

It was amusing when it happened on occasion, but when it happens multiple times, causing many resets, it gets tiring. I'm sure those resets will still happen, but at least now there's a better shot at completing them. It's great news for mentors that get these extremes on roulette.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

And let's be real here, when is the last time you saw someone do the cannons in SV? I've gotten it in Leveling a lot recently and unless I interact with them, the other players just ignore them. I'll be happy if they managed to get Trusts to react to them so I actually see someone using them again.

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Would be muuuuuuch more worth interacting with those if it did not stink so much. Spam spam spam away at numpad 0 until it registers the click then the attack goes off anyway because I activated it "too late". Then you realize that one single whispering dawn and the fairy can heal that entire fight so you greed uptime instead. Actually anything involving cannons is so fricken wonky for reasons mysterious.

Makes the alterations even more of the confusing. Just watched family member blast through Vigil first time on Scholar, did not even need to clense burns from first boss because the fairy took care of everything. Pulled the entire first hallway to the boss door and obliterated the pull after one wipe. Yes I mean everything. The first hallway, all the dargons in the adjacent room alllllll the way to the Swinge boss.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

People express dissatisfaction because they want to play this game, and want the devs to know what could be done to improve their enjoyment of it so that they will keep playing it. Telling them to just leave and find something else is incredibly rude and dismissive, at best.

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What I am assuming everyone wants us to say, silently at our monitor of course, is 'Yes, I love all of your decisions daddy square. You are always right and I will never question your divine judgment'. Paying for a product with a monthly subscription and wishing to give any input is always shot down with 'go play something else'. It is a really nice way of saying be quiet, and I want MY game to be the way I want it. Even though it is an MMO and they should really be looking to every player demographic and how they feel about many changes.

I understand not wanting an indie developer to not change their puzzle game into a shooter. Many times developers listen too heavily to criticism and ruin the game everyone was playing because people asked for a shooter, and they caved. There is a happy medium to which you could listen to fans but also continue to work on the game you are passionate about. How are developers suppose to know when and why someone stops playing their game? I guess maybe brain slugs or something? Agreeing with everything is unhealthy, and that is why forums exist. Many want to play the MMO they are paying for and do not wish for the devs to instead change the MMO into just exclusively a visual novel. There can be the story parts of course, but in the end you can't at this point just stop putting effort into the mmo part. If they wanted it to be a visual novel they would have release a visual novel. Sadly for me if that is what they only want to do coming forward, there are many out there story wise that blow this games story out of the water. FF14 is dear to me and though the story is predictable, I still love it. I love the cheesiness, social interaction, art style, and gameplay. But if they want to take all of that out why am I playing an mmo that wishes to no longer be an mmo.

To those people with that 'argument' they too can leave. They could also stay and we can find a middle ground, but if they are too stubborn to accept there are other people playing the MMO rather than, THEY, the most important person in the world. I can not help them.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I wonder if they're ever going to change up CT, something tells me I doubt it or at least I doubt anytime soon

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I really wish for this as well and coils to receive some love and polish. The story within coils is so important, and it is extremely depressing if you attempt to queue for it. There is no way other than party finder, and it has alot of fun mechanics, some have not aged well, but that is what the polish is for!

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Originally Posted by Padudu

You're being punished. Enjoy!

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I sware! It is only when I go dps and I want to figure out my rotation and it is always ARR everything! >.< If I play tank or healer I get all the fun things. The Twinning a bunch, Abania, Ala Mihgo, even Ruby Weapon and I had yet to do that series ended up going through the story afterwards and was not disappointed. (I have a soft spot for Gaius he is so adorable.) If I queue to warm up in an alliance raid with level 70 bard, syrcus tower, usually snowcloak for 50/60/70 dungeons roulette, leveling always copperbell or a 4 man primal sometimes vigil, but always ARR I am trapped.

So I took a break from dps to have fun with other things. That coupled with a tank pulling a single enemy that seems to be the standard if I wish to practice an aoe rotation on a dps class that gets a potency boost with 4 or more targets like blm unless its 3 or more, I don't even remember anymore and it depends on what level because blm. I am going to end up on day in the vault and sob attempting to remember what it is I need to do at this particular level I can only imagine just ending up in 80. 'oh my gosh I have all my stuff! how do I use it at this level again?!' At least normal raids I can't get crystal tower though wouldn't mind getting coils but that is not included. That would be insane though. I can only imagine the suffering.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Would be muuuuuuch more worth interacting with those if it did not stink so much. Spam spam spam away at numpad 0 until it registers the click then the attack goes off anyway because I activated it "too late". Then you realize that one single whispering dawn and the fairy can heal that entire fight so you greed uptime instead. Actually anything involving cannons is so fricken wonky for reasons mysterious.

Makes the alterations even more of the confusing. Just watched family member blast through Vigil first time on Scholar, did not even need to clense burns from first boss because the fairy took care of everything. Pulled the entire first hallway to the boss door and obliterated the pull after one wipe. Yes I mean everything. The first hallway, all the dargons in the adjacent room alllllll the way to the Swinge boss.

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Fairy has pretty much always been that OP all the way back to ARR, though. AFK scholars who went on /follow letting the fairy heal was a common thing. And yeah, the cannon mechanic was also flaky. So it's not really teaching much except how to hate something in the game for not reacting when you interact with it.

Not related to the quote, but going back to perma death. I think many in this thread don't realize Titan got nerfed years ago. You used to have to stare at the floor when you slid off. So you weren't even able to see the fight. A QoL went in so you could at least watch the fight, and now there's another QoL going in so teams have a chance of recovery.

Aren't at least some of those changes only so they can add the dungeons/trials to trust/adventurer runs later on? Would be an issue if you had to wipe after an npc fell off the edge because he couldn't be rezzed.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's easy to be against these changes when you probably never risk queueing the content.

It was amusing when it happened on occasion, but when it happens multiple times, causing many resets, it gets tiring. I'm sure those resets will still happen, but at least now there's a better shot at completing them. It's great news for mentors that get these extremes on roulette.

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For normal dungeons: "Risk". Yeah. That's hilarious. Normal mode dungeons are as close to solo/duoable as they've ever been.
For extremes: Permadeath isn't what causes this derptastic community to wipe over and over again. Shiva EX doesn't have permadeath, and I've nearly run out an instance timer teaching newbies. It's because they don't listen. They ignore mechanics. They say "eh just heal through the vulnerability stacks", because that's a preferable solution over learning anything. FFXIV doesn't encourage players to learn fights or their kits at all. It isn't punishing enough.

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Originally Posted by Voross

Aren't at least some of those changes only so they can add the dungeons/trials to trust/adventurer runs later on? Would be an issue if you had to wipe after an npc fell off the edge because he couldn't be rezzed.

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More than likely, yes, and I think the issue is some people didn't think they would need to change the regular dungeons to do it. But roulette is roulette. I always anticipated they would need to change the base dungeon because there's only one version of it. Even with Explorer Mode, it's the same dungeon at the end with no mobs I believe, which is why people can't go back to earlier parts in dungeons that change in some manner for things like specific weather or lighting.

We're not asking for Dark Souls levels of difficulty (at least no sane person is). We're not asking for Sastasha to suddenly be as hard as P4S or Ifrit to suddenly go into his UWU phase at level 20.

We're asking for mechanics to be respected.
We're asking for solo content to better teach you a basic rotation so you get a better understanding of your job mechanics.
We're asking for content to respect our intelligence.

That's all

I mean it makes sense that they are making everything easier now atleast they are being consistent, the game gives you the wrong idea in arr thinking its gonna be a proper mmo but nope, slow easy wow clone that can feel like its own thing ONLY when you do high end content.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's easy to be against these changes when you probably never risk queueing the content.

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What do you mean "risk queuing" it? It's not like you're going to break a leg or something. Plus I can assure you, many of us have queued this content, sometimes many, many times.

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Originally Posted by Juun

To those complaining when was the last time you sat down and went to do these duties?

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yesterday night

This is a problem with many MMOs.

They start off jank but loveable, get polished to their peak state, and then continue to get polished until they are a hollow shell of what was compelling to the original playerbase. Like I said, the permadeath stuff I don't really care about, but seeing them strip iconic mechanics entirely out of fights to accommodate a tacked on single-player mode is just depressing.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

This is a problem with many MMOs.

They start off jank but loveable, get polished to their peak state, and then continue to get polished until they are a hollow shell of what was compelling to the original playerbase. The permadeath stuff I don't really care about, but seeing them strip iconic mechanics entirely out of fights to accommodate a tacked on single-player mode is just depressing.

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https://static1.thegamerimages.com/w...w=2000&dpr=1.5

Maybe this is what awaits us.

Come to think of it, they did speak of "perfecting" FF14 in one of the SHB fan fest interviews. :p