When are we supposed to stop fighting?

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

The only thing tacky here is using that comparison in a thread about a video game story, sheesh.

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Point being, you're basically saying because the Ancients reacted realistically to a traumatic situation they deserved to be traumatized further by being ripped into fourteen pieces and murdered slowly by mortality. Nah fam. That ain't it. Nor do we deserve to die in order to have all of our soul fragments shoved back together. Both the Ascians and Venat are wrong, both are guilty. Sooner both sides can admit that, sooner the debates stop. Not all of the Ancients became Ascians, and the innocent bystanders did not deserve nor should they have been Sundered.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Point being, you're basically saying because the Ancients reacted realistically to a traumatic situation they deserved to be traumatized further by being ripped into fourteen pieces and murdered slowly by mortality. Nah fam. That ain't it. Nor do we deserve to die in order to have all of our soul fragments shoved back together. Both the Ascians and Venat are wrong, both are guilty. Sooner both sides can admit that, sooner the debates stop.

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I don't think anyone "deserved" anything and I appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. But sure, whatever. Both sides were "wrong" and Venat was a very bad lady for doing a sundering, shame on her. Satisfied?

Can we please have more interesting discusions that don't involve comparisons to women being assaulted now? Maybe even discussions about the original topics of threads.

Well, that was a tangent.

Anyways, on topic, the answer is simply that fighting is fun and Zenos was right, I seek out adversity because it brings me great enjoyment. There is no end to it because for the fighting to end would mean me putting the game behind me, which I do not wish to do.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

We're not looking at it the same way. That's been abundantly clear for weeks. It is the same game. The difference between us is that I am willing to extend my perception to its fullest. You are not..

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Vryreus, I really don't think you can make this claim. You only espouse one interpretation of Venat's actions, that what she did destroyed and ruined things. You do not acknowledge the possibility that her actions brought about something essential that was missing. You can't fault someone for their viewpoint and look down your nose at them that they don't have your depth of perception when you don't show it yourself.

Well, this is going to be some sorta backread. Whooo boy.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

you don't show it yourself.

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I see why you might think that, but I'm not one of the people just rallying behind what's already explicit in the game. I.E. In plain sight. I'm also not condescending to anyone. I believe most people on this forum have just as much and more to their perception than I do. But I also know that they aren't making use of it.

But even if I were, I've been looked down on plenty here. In order for your riff on me to have any meaning, the people you think I'm looking down on would have had to have not looked down on me for the past month and more. There are many responses to my past posts that I did not bother to respond to, because there was no way to do so without giving into anger.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Point being, you're basically saying because the Ancients reacted realistically to a traumatic situation they deserved to be traumatized further by being ripped into fourteen pieces and murdered slowly by mortality. Nah fam. That ain't it. Nor do we deserve to die in order to have all of our soul fragments shoved back together. Both the Ascians and Venat are wrong, both are guilty. Sooner both sides can admit that, sooner the debates stop. Not all of the Ancients became Ascians, and the innocent bystanders did not deserve nor should they have been Sundered.

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Here's the thing, though, which is actually related to the topic at hand: the Ancients reacted so horrifically poorly not just 'because of trauma', but because to them it was unprecedented trauma. They'd spent so long completely without any kind of suffering that when it inevitably came (as it inevitably does, no matter what), they had absolutely no experience in how to deal with anything like it, and so no framework in how to make a good decision.

The second sacrifice was tragic and completely understandable, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake made by people who just didn't have the life experience required to do things right.

And us? We learn from that, and try to avoid making the same mistakes. Because that's how life is: we experience suffering, be it first or second hand, and try to not fall in the same holes.

..... Anyways, on topic.

we do stop fighting. or at least physically. Every time we pick up a fishing poll or a smithing hammer the fight temporarily stops and we enjoy the peace and happiness weve been striving for.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

How easy it must be to think that our difference of opinion is rooted in my “limited perception.” We are both seeing the same things Vyrerus, accept that.

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Confounding and difficult, actually. I did not say that your perception is limited, only that you choose to limit it. Perhaps, choose to express a limited portion of it would be a better way to put it. It's confounding, because I know most everyone here is bright. Some more than me. I know we have different eyes and hearts, so the story makes us feel different things. Different things catch our differing eyes first, too.

But I don't think anyone has bad vision, in terms of looking at the story. I do think you, and others, do not care to look beyond what pleases you with regards to characters and their stories. I don't understand why or how.

I don't focus on the rosy parts of the story when I post, because the story already focused on them. Hoping I wouldn't think too hard about all of it. Sometimes, I wish I ruminated less over it, but that's not me.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Confounding and difficult, actually. I did not say that your perception is limited, only that you choose to limit it. Perhaps, choose to express a limited portion of it would be a better way to put it. It's confounding, because I know most everyone here is bright. Some more than me. I know we have different eyes and hearts, so the story makes us feel different things. Different things catch our differing eyes first, too.

But I don't think anyone has bad vision, in terms of looking at the story. I do think you, and others, do not care to look beyond what pleases you with regards to characters and their stories. I don't understand why or how.

I don't focus on the rosy parts of the story when I post, because the story already focused on them. Hoping I wouldn't think too hard about all of it. Sometimes, I wish I ruminated less over it, but that's not me.

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Why did you start "bad faith argument" Thread if you also post posts like this?

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Why did you start "bad faith argument" Thread if you also post posts like this?

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Because he was accused of them.

I should know; I was the one that said it.

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Why did you start "bad faith argument" Thread if you also post posts like this?

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Why did everyone who read that thread expect me to be an exemplar for them, without analyzing themselves? The onus is not entirely on me to make hospitable posts 24/7 and somehow change the forum, especially when I've been insulted too. I think it took only a week for someone to try to leverage my creation of that thread against me in an argument, because I responded in kind to someone who put me down. You can believe I'm a hypocrite or double minded or whatever you want, but just because I espoused the desire for the forum to be better doesn't mean I'll sit and take insults, insinuated or otherwise. It also doesn't mean that I'm perfect. Part of the reason that I created that thread, was that people from the forum who communicate with me outside of the forum told me I wasn't considered a problem poster. I wanted to see if it was true, and I also wanted to see what people thought constituted bad faith.

In the end, I didn't learn very much, other than there's a lot of old grudges in this sub forum. There's almost no introspective posters here. Most people here believe they aren't part of the problem, and do little in the way of offering solutions to stop arguments/derailment. I try and I fail. I'm sure I'm a laughingstock. But I am earnest, and I am open.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Here's the thing, though, which is actually related to the topic at hand: the Ancients reacted so horrifically poorly not just 'because of trauma', but because to them it was unprecedented trauma. They'd spent so long completely without any kind of suffering that when it inevitably came (as it inevitably does, no matter what), they had absolutely no experience in how to deal with anything like it, and so no framework in how to make a good decision.

The second sacrifice was tragic and completely understandable, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake made by people who just didn't have the life experience required to do things right.

And us? We learn from that, and try to avoid making the same mistakes. Because that's how life is: we experience suffering, be it first or second hand, and try to not fall in the same holes.

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We know just from playing through the game that the Ancients were quite well acquainted with suffering. We also know that they were actually even quicker to learn from their mistakes than the sundered a lot of the time. Like the sundered, they too had their own battles to fight. Also like the sundered, many of these battles weren't of a physical nature. Their fighting probably would never have stopped either.

That aside, how do you figure the second set of sacrifices was a mistake? The planet was quite literally no longer capable of supporting life. Were it not for the second sacrifice to Zodiark, it would've remained a barren wasteland all but devoid of life. In time, even the remaining Ancients (of which the game leads us to believe were only the Amaurotines, all others beyond it having apparently already died) would've succumbed to the near-literal hellscape the environment had become. More than merely fixing the world, it was through the second set of sacrifices that new life was sown upon it.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We know just from playing through the game that the Ancients were quite well acquainted with suffering. We also know that they were actually even quicker to learn from their mistakes than the sundered a lot of the time. Like the sundered, they too had their own battles to fight. Also like the sundered, many of these battles weren't of a physical nature. Their fighting probably would never have stopped either.

That aside, how do you figure the second set of sacrifices was a mistake? The planet was quite literally no longer capable of supporting life. Were it not for the second sacrifice to Zodiark, it would've remained a barren wasteland all but devoid of life. In time, even the remaining Ancients (of which the game leads us to believe were only the Amaurotines, all others beyond it having apparently already died) would've succumbed to the near-literal hellscape the environment had become. More than merely fixing the world, it was through the second set of sacrifices that new life was sown upon it.

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I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

..... Anyways, on topic.

we do stop fighting. or at least physically. Every time we pick up a fishing poll or a smithing hammer the fight temporarily stops and we enjoy the peace and happiness weve been striving for.

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I don't know, man. The WoL trying to catch some of those legendary fish is a harder battle than most of the Primals or other world-ending threats. Maybe fighting is the real vacation.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

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Do we? The entire Elpis flower sequence starting with its introduction and random shining during early parts of EW MSQ, is a set up that pays off when Hermis comments that it doesn't shine much different colors here or anywhere on Etherys. This gives us information that Ancients while not emotionless just don't experience much strong or varied emotions. This is also reinforced with Emmet's comments that he just can't understand the sadness Hermis feels. It was "pang of sadness" as he put it, then you carry on. Sure there where suffering individuals, but general culture was telling them how they should or should not feel in different situations (this was known from ShB Amaurot shades).

The main attribute of Ancient society is Mask. Rather on the nose metaphor for society that hides their true feelings all the time, is it not?

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Do we? The entire Elpis flower sequence starting with its introduction and random shining during early parts of EW MSQ, is a set up that pays off when Hermis comments that it doesn't shine much different colors here or anywhere on Etherys. This gives us information that Ancients while not emotionless just don't experience much strong or varied emotions. This is also reinforced with Emmet's comments that he just can't understand the sadness Hermis feels. It was "pang of sadness" as he put it, then you carry on. Sure there where suffering individuals, but general culture was telling them how they should or should not feel in different situations (this was known from ShB Amaurot shades).

The main attribute of Ancient society is Mask. Rather on the nose metaphor for society that hides their true feelings all the time, is it not?

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Yes we do, you just answered it yourself. There were suffering people. We see this if you do the side quests in Elpis or even Pandaemonium with Lahabrea and Erich. Suffering was not some foreign concept. We see people who have the same qualms as Hermes however they’re able to work past it. Considering the sadness we’ve seen Elidibus exhibit, or anger that Emet does, there isn’t much that supports them as being devoid of most emotion. If anything they’re just better at keeping it in check than sundered races are.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes we do, you just answered it yourself. There were suffering people. We see this if you do the side quests in Elpis or even Pandaemonium with Lahabrea and Erich. Suffering was not some foreign concept. We see people who have the same qualms as Hermes however they’re able to work past it. Considering the sadness we’ve seen Elidibus exhibit, or anger that Emet does, there isn’t much that supports them as being devoid of most emotion. If anything they’re just better at keeping it in check than sundered races are.

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I rather specifically mentioned them to not be emotionless, did I not? My point is not the lack of emotions but intensity of them. Coming up to clinically depressed person and telling him you know how it feels you also feel sad once in a while is bit delusional (and arsholish but thats not here nor there). The Ancient suffering is incomparable to Despair, for once they did experience it it broke them. (Case in point Emet in Elpis and Emet in ShB).

I do not discount Ancient capacity to feel. Rather their use of Creation magic afforded them so much comfort that anything more than minor inconveniences are uncommon. One could argue that Convocation grade Ancients are more emotionally resilient due to stress of their position. And they where significantly more resilient during Final Days also. But rank and file? Not so much.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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In fairness, you've done a respectable job of sticking to the topic, which relates to suffering and resilience. Frustrations were high because the anti-Venat thinktank came in to take out their narcissistic aggression on forum posters, but they'll get bored soon enough.

In any case, I think what you're describing about 'heroes' pervades our own history as well. Great discoveries are often chalked up to one legendary influential individual, when human achievements are almost universally a collaborative effort. More often than not, what we remember is not the individual themselves and their actual struggles, but a mythic retelling of those events that they could never hope to live up to. But it's the unsung trials that are the most important ones. History may never remember your personal struggles or growth, but that's not to say that it wasn't important at the time.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Frustrations were high because the anti-Venat thinktank came in to take out their narcissistic aggression on forum posters, but they'll get bored soon enough.

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I think that comments such as this are incredibly disingenuous. That you seem to believe that there's some hive mind conspiracy against Venat is very telling. Especially when nobody is obligated to like her or approve of her actions.

I'd be much more inclined to attribute 'narcissistic aggression' to the very same posters who are so obsessed with defending their fictional 'benevolent mother' figure that they resort to horrific and bizarre claims that if someone dislikes Venat, it is due to sexism.

This, of course, is not even accounting for the simple fact that many of the same posters now crying foul about Venat being criticised spent much of their time around these parts consistently criticising the characters that they themselves happened to dislike.

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

I rather specifically mentioned them to not be emotionless, did I not? My point is not the lack of emotions but intensity of them. Coming up to clinically depressed person and telling him you know how it feels you also feel sad once in a while is bit delusional (and arsholish but thats not here nor there). The Ancient suffering is incomparable to Despair, for once they did experience it it broke them. (Case in point Emet in Elpis and Emet in ShB).

I do not discount Ancient capacity to feel. Rather their use of Creation magic afforded them so much comfort that anything more than minor inconveniences are uncommon. One could argue that Convocation grade Ancients are more emotionally resilient due to stress of their position. And they where significantly more resilient during Final Days also. But rank and file? Not so much.

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While they did have comfort, we're shown time and time again that comfort does not buy happiness. Look at Erich with Pandemonium for example. He's clearly suffering, clearly in grief over his mother and the distancing from his father. It's very akin to how normal everyday people feel in situations like that,and while this is speculation, we will most likely learn that Lahabrea too is grieving for his wife. We see the despair break anyone it touches. Look at Thavnair and Garlemald for example. Even Fordola could hardly escape it. This is a bit away from my overall point though. I was merely giving my thoughts because another poster claimed they spent so long without any kind of suffering when we know factually this isnt the case.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In fairness, you've done a respectable job of sticking to the topic, which relates to suffering and resilience. Frustrations were high because the anti-Venat thinktank came in to take out their narcissistic aggression on forum posters, but they'll get bored soon enough.

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I'd really rather we not namecall or insinuate things. It's childish and detrimental to the goal of the forums.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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No, my comment is honest. But I'm truly glad that you in particular showed up to own up to it.

You're absolutely entitled to express whatever comments and opinions that you wish. Society, in turn, is entitled to judge you for them. Outside of that, there's really nothing else to be said about your comments that's still relevant to this thread. Good day.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

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The phrase “to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had” comes to mind. Clearly many were of the mind that suffering was not a thing.

https://i.imgur.com/D9CRdnB.jpg

What suffering existed was minor, and limited to a handful of people.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

But I don't think anyone has bad vision, in terms of looking at the story. I do think you, and others, do not care to look beyond what pleases you with regards to characters and their stories. I don't understand why or how.

I don't focus on the rosy parts of the story when I post, because the story already focused on them. Hoping I wouldn't think too hard about all of it. Sometimes, I wish I ruminated less over it, but that's not me.

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I ruminate a great deal on the less happy parts of the story, the moral quandaries and the issues at play. All the paths to me end in the same conclusion, an opinion clearly not shared by all.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Why did everyone who read that thread expect me to be an exemplar for them, without analyzing themselves? The onus is not entirely on me to make hospitable posts 24/7 and somehow change the forum, especially when I've been insulted too. I think it took only a week for someone to try to leverage my creation of that thread against me in an argument, because I responded in kind to someone who put me down. You can believe I'm a hypocrite or double minded or whatever you want, but just because I espoused the desire for the forum to be better doesn't mean I'll sit and take insults, insinuated or otherwise. It also doesn't mean that I'm perfect. Part of the reason that I created that thread, was that people from the forum who communicate with me outside of the forum told me I wasn't considered a problem poster. I wanted to see if it was true, and I also wanted to see what people thought constituted bad faith.

In the end, I didn't learn very much, other than there's a lot of old grudges in this sub forum. There's almost no introspective posters here. Most people here believe they aren't part of the problem, and do little in the way of offering solutions to stop arguments/derailment. I try and I fail. I'm sure I'm a laughingstock. But I am earnest, and I am open.

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It appears that some amount of apologies is in order. My point was that creation of bad faith thread indicated desire for more fruitful and civil discussion. While quoted post contains nearly exclusively condescension towards other poster. This causes dissonance to me. Nevertheless it is unfair to pile the overall forums bad dynamis on you. The snarling roars of Blasphemies affect as all and sometimes we ourself are the snarling beasts. Thankfully in our case transformations are not final.

To answer the both points of this of discussions and Op of the thread. The Fighting never ends. Not while we live. In game lore death is merely setback due to lifestream. So until heat death of the Universe. And even then it's on assumptions that Ea are correct and it's is the end and after it happens nothing else WILL. Perhaps its Hope speaking but it seemed to me that once they got their result they stopped research of further happenings and put all their efforts into attempt to find the way to prevent it. Perhaps there is nothing to prevent. The universe will end. The next will begin :P.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

No, my comment is honest. But I'm truly glad that you in particular showed up to own up to it.

You're absolutely entitled to express whatever comments and opinions that you wish. Society, in turn, is entitled to judge you for them. Outside of that, there's really nothing else to be said about your comments that's still relevant to this thread. Good day.

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I rather suspect that whatever it is you are implying about me is rooted in misconceptions and stretches to reach a particular conclusion. Feel free to provide some evidence - especially since contrary to your post, there is nothing to 'own up to'.

I also think it's utterly bizarre to proclaim that society would judge someone for their likes and dislikes in a fictional setting. As if those likes or dislikes would even be considered 'right' or 'wrong' by any reasonable measure. It's fiction. It doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The phrase “to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had” comes to mind. Clearly many were of the mind that suffering was not a thing.

https://i.imgur.com/D9CRdnB.jpg

What suffering existed was minor, and limited to a handful of people.



I ruminate a great deal on the less happy parts of the story, the moral quandaries and the issues at play. All the paths to me end in the same conclusion, an opinion clearly not shared by all.

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People keep repeating that line, but we need to actually use context for it. Compared to the mass suffering and horrible circumstances they were facing, their world before it occurred truly was a perfect paradise compared to what they had experienced. It’s subjective as to how each player will take it but that’s how i’ve taken it since i first read it. It goes along with the whole, you never really cherish something until it’s gone, kind of along the lines of that. It’s a comparison.I really don’t think you can jump to a conclusion that the suffering was minor. Especially given the side quests. We also don’t even know about the other societies so to say that and jump to that conclusion is a bit much.

Something to note about the elpis flowers btw, is that they cant easily be affected by aetheric density from what we're told. Its not really to do with them not having a range of emotions.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

????

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I can see that you're frustrated with a lot of things. That's unfortunate. I'm simply telling you unambiguously that your comments about Venat aren't relevant to this particular discussion and are derailing the conversation in this thread. Hope that clarifies things for you. If not, you have my regards and best wishes, from an extreme distance.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

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I think that the term that you're looking for is resilience. Remember that the reference point here is our own lives. You're being told by the story that the hardship that you, as an average human being, experience on a daily basis is apparently the equivalent of playing on extreme difficulty to the Ancients. I don't know about you, but it sounds like they could do with a bit more resilience.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I can see that you're frustrated with a lot of things. That's unfortunate. I'm simply telling you unambiguously that your comments about Venat aren't relevant to this particular discussion and are derailing the conversation in this thread. Hope that clarifies things for you. If not, you have my regards and best wishes, from an extreme distance.

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I rather suspect that you know very little about me in actuality and I would humbly suggest that you avoid making such assumptions. I'm sure many around these parts are well acquainted with the concept of 'concern trolling', however, so I don't doubt that they'll be able to see what is really going on here.

As for Venat? Well, Venat is very relevant to the thread's premise given that the character in question is the reason why so many individual characters and factions within the game's story are subjected to various events.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I can see that you're frustrated with a lot of things. That's unfortunate. I'm simply telling you unambiguously that your comments about Venat aren't relevant to this particular discussion and are derailing the conversation in this thread. Hope that clarifies things for you. If not, you have my regards and best wishes, from an extreme distance.

I think that the term that you're looking for is resilience. Remember that the reference point here is our own lives. You're being told by the story that the hardship that you, as an average human being, experience on a daily basis is apparently the equivalent of playing on extreme difficulty to the Ancients. I don't know about you, but it sounds like they could do with a bit more resilience.

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I don’t see how they could do with a bit more resilience. Considering that they survived the final days i’d say they’re pretty resilient enough. They relied on their own people to do so, whereas we needed to rely on the ancients for help.

I mean, you could argue that we're the same set of souls as the Ancients so it's all the same, but resilience isn't merely an inherited property of a person. It's shaped by your experiences. Were the Ancients made stronger by the Final Days? Undoubtedly so.

I don't think that receiving help and support from others makes you less resilient. If anything, having a robust system of social supports makes you even more so.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I mean, you could argue that we're the same set of souls as the Ancients so it's all the same, but resilience isn't merely an inherited property of a person. It's shaped by your experiences. Were the Ancients made stronger by the Final Days? Undoubtedly so.

I don't think that receiving help and support from others makes you less resilient. If anything, having a robust system of social supports makes you even more so.

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It’s up to subjective tastes i suppose, but for me personally, i see that if you need to rely on higher up people to assist you in things, that shows you’re less resilient than they may be, especially in this situation, as if it weren’t for them we wouldn’t have succeeded in the first place whereas on the other hand they seemed to have been well off without us.

The Ancients aren't 'superior' to humanity, though. That was just their own system of biases talking. I'm sure that when we learn more about Dynamis, we'll see the exact opposite viewpoint expressed. 'The Amaurotians? Those aether dense fools couldn't manipulate dynamis if their lives depended on it! Caretakers of the planet? Ha!'

You can only say that our success was dependent on them insofar as they were in our past, and we in their future.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The Ancients aren't 'superior' to humanity, though. That was just their own system of biases talking. I'm sure that when we learn more about Dynamis, we'll see the exact opposite viewpoint expressed. 'The Amaurotians? Those aether dense fools couldn't manipulate dynamis if their lives depended on it! Caretakers of the planet? Ha!'

You can only say that our success was dependent on them insofar as they were in our past, and we in their future.

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They could manipulate dynamis though, but i’m not going to derail the thread any more than it already has been to try to disprove headcanon. To each his own i suppose.I’ll just say i can say that our success was solely dependent on them not only for this expansion but even in the past expansions as well considering we even needed Emet’s help numerous times. It’s subjective but personally i find them fairly superior. Longer life span,immunity to illness, less prone to violence etc etc.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s up to subjective tastes i suppose, but for me personally, i see that if you need to rely on higher up people to assist you in things, that shows you’re less resilient than they may be, especially in this situation, as if it weren’t for them we wouldn’t have succeeded in the first place whereas on the other hand they seemed to have been well off without us.

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The planet was laid to waste by one of their own creations, and the in-fighting afterwards led to their extinction. That doesn't exactly seem well off to me.

Neither Meteion, nor the final days, nor the sacrifices, nor the sundering, were the fault of the sundered. They did all that on their own.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The planet was laid to waste by one of their own creations, and the in-fighting afterwards led to their extinction. That doesn't exactly seem well off to me.

Neither Meteion, nor the final days, nor the sacrifices, nor the sundering, were the fault of the sundered. They did all that on their own.

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They lived whats presumed to be thousands of years without any problems. Actually, it seems to be that sundering involvement led to their extinction considering all the time shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They lived whats presumed to be thousands of years without any problems. Actually, it seems to be that sundering involvement led to their extinction considering all the time shenanigans.

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They really made up for lost time with Meteion.

Jesus, it's not that hard. Endwalker's main theme is just the philosophy and pitfalls of nihilism 101.

There is suffering, period. The ancients only stayed it off for a time by turning a blind eye to the suffering of the races they created (and destroyed) for their own personal comfort. And sure, that's one way of doing things, until someone like Hermes comes along who sympathises with those "lesser creature's" lives. We also met Venat, who clearly wasn't really on board with the whole "retire and die" thing either. As leader of the convocation, of course someone like Emet would be the pinnacle of believers in the ancient's philosophy as lordly shepherds of the star who's only purpose is to prolong and improve it. But it's clear that's not the case for every ancient. Certainly, it's clear that as part of their mission, they put themselves at the top of the priority list for comfort.

The story quite explicitly spells out that there is no grand higher purpose everyone can aspire to that will solve all suffering. Emet-selch and the convocation might be very happy in their mission as shepherds of the star, but obviously others were not. That's the issue. Hermes wasn't at all fulfilled by the task, and neither was Venat, really. And the convocation's goal wasn't any more inherently noble or less self-centred than any other goal one might have. Even Zenos, though to many people who've grown up with the moral philosophy of the modern era, his goal might seem incredibly immoral, he still succeeds at finding a purpose and following it through, for good or ill of anyone else.

The point is that's all we can do. It's great to aspire to your own moral compass, and I'm sure many of the people around you will be happy if that compass is in line with their own. But at the end of the day, if trying to follow someone else's philosophy does not fulfil you, then you have to find another purpose - one that will be just as inherently valid, even if people oppose you, even if you ultimately fail.

Striving for something without purpose, however, and without knowing why you're doing what you're doing and without believing in something that ultimately you can't prove is more right than anything else, will only lead to despair.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

They really made up for lost time with Meteion.

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Not sure what your point is here at all lol. In the end it was Venat that brought them to extinction. Not necessarily Meteion.

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Originally Posted by Beytran70

I don't know, man. The WoL trying to catch some of those legendary fish is a harder battle than most of the Primals or other world-ending threats. Maybe fighting is the real vacation.

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true lol. that lvl 50 shark was harder than any minstrels ballad in the game. by lvl 90 we're basically posidon reincarnated.

If Zenos wanted to me to take his challenge seriously, he could have joined me outside of Ala Mhigo trying to get Sculptors and Stethacanthus and then moving onto Ealad Skaan.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Not sure what your point is here at all lol. In the end it was Venat that brought them to extinction. Not necessarily Meteion.

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You seem to want to pat them on the back for going thousands of years without a major disaster (that we know of,) but given the ridiculous scale of the disaster they did cause, I'm not sure they deserve it.

And yes, Venat did wipe the Ancients out, as a result of Hermes trying to wipe the Ancients out, so I'm not sure how you've arrived at the conclusion that they'd be fine. First disaster in thousands of years by your estimation, and they totally blew it.