yoshi what are you doing to steel cyclone ):?

reading your post again you missed the point of my post entirely !!

PLD should take much less damage than any class !

War shouldnt be able to tank and do damage and hold emnity and heal

Simples :)

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Originally Posted by Sasagawa

reading your post again you missed the point of my post entirely !!

PLD should take much less damage than any class !

War shouldnt be able to tank and do damage and hold emnity and heal

Simples :)

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yeah I read that wrong sorry about that. but I disagree with PLD > WAR IMO should be PLD = WAR in tanking abilities but that they do it differently.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

yeah I read that wrong sorry about that. but I disagree with PLD > WAR IMO should be PLD = WAR in tanking abilities but that they do it differently.

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If that's the case then WAR should = PLD in offensive abilities.

It should be able to do both well, but not the best at either, whether it's at the same time or alternating (with opposing stances, Berserk/Defender). The alternating method being slightly better at each independently than the former.

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Originally Posted by Vaymathias

If that's the case then WAR should = PLD in offensive abilities.

It should be able to do both well, but not the best at either, whether it's at the same time or alternating (with opposing stances, Berserk/Defender). The alternating method being slightly better at each independently than the former.

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but its not the best at dps just better then PLD while PLD is better at healing than a WAR yet not the best at healing compared to WHM. See what I'm getting at. Earlier I mentioned PLDs secondary needs boosting IMO, as well as their Def, HP, and mana pool. I'm not against SC nerf it needs it, what I'm against is the linear opinion that PLD should be the best tank and that there should only be one good tank, and the miss spread of information in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

but its not the best at dps just better then PLD while PLD is better at healing than a WAR yet not the best at healing compared to WHM. See what I'm getting at. Earlier I mentioned PLDs secondary needs boosting IMO, as well as their Def, HP, and mana pool. I'm not against SC nerf it needs it, what I'm against is the linear opinion that PLD should be the best tank and that there should only be one good tank, and the miss spread of information in this thread.

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The healing is mostly only there to improve their tanking abilities, and I only say mostly because not everyone is going to use it the way commonly used.

But, best tank, which it should be, doesn't take into account the reduced life of the enemy that is caused by WAR. It's the trade off, there will be cases that you need a pure tank, but there will also be cases where you can be a little more lax in the tanking area to add offense to make everything go more effectively.

Making PLD's healing better only goes to make it a job that can do two roles but not as effectively as a single role, and considering how they're already designing content for the min-maxers it's likely going to be needed.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

yeah I read that wrong sorry about that. but I disagree with PLD > WAR IMO should be PLD = WAR in tanking abilities but that they do it differently.

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I disagree with the notion that PLD = WAR. They are different roles with different purposes.
Warrior, as the name suggests comes across as an aggressive type of role that can both deal damage and handle damage in crowds.
Paladin on the other hand has a pure sole purpose of defending, i think that's given, considering his rubbish damage.

Paladin should theoretically defend better and take less damage, otherwise it really doesn't serve it's purpose, and this is the current issue with Paladin at the moment, hence the little demand for it. Raising his mp pool can alleviate the issue some but his attributes need to be fixed up. His defense should be increased, and so should his HP and MP pool, perhaps his abilities too. Then the Pld and War can be on equal grounds. Paladin defends and survives better, however War defends well and has the added advantage that he damages well too.

On the other hand, i think War needs to be closely examined to other DD's to keep other DD roles balanced too and have them not just significantly stronger but more unique. We'll know it's balanced when the day comes and people have less bias and demand for War in a pt.

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Originally Posted by Vaymathias

The healing is mostly only there to improve their tanking abilities, and I only say mostly because not everyone is going to use it the way commonly used.

But, best tank, which it should be, doesn't take into account the reduced life of the enemy that is caused by WAR. It's the trade off, there will be cases that you need a pure tank, but there will also be cases where you can be a little more lax in the tanking area to add offense to make everything go more effectively.

Making PLD's healing better only goes to make it a job that can do two roles but not as effectively as a single role, and considering how they're already designing content for the min-maxers it's likely going to be needed.

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then we will have to agree to disagree on best tank. (I also dont think WAR should be best either I think they should both be equal choices where one provides more damage and the other takes less). I would also like to see PLD take up a secondary less effective role with healing as well, seems to fit the role of how tanking works in this game giving both a secondary also seems to fit the general lore of warrior and paladin in other games/stories as well.

i'll be rolling on the floor laughing, when WAR gets nerfed to a point that it gets less useful, and PLD doesn't get pushed enough to make up for the loss.
if u ask me, they should leave WAR alone and just add higher def/enmity/hp/block rate to PLD and maybe some way to refresh MP during active mode.

it's not WAR that is too strong, it's just SE failing to actually understand how a real tank class/job should work.

Why are so many people against nerfing a class? I don't really get it! Warrior is OP. What don't you people get about it? This is coming from a Warrior. It's not nerfing to fix another class, Warrior is OP in itself. If a Warrior can solo itself all the way to the sipahi turban coffer area and solo the boss, there is something slightly wrong don't you people think?

I love how everyone is just like, buff up Paladin and leave Warrior alone. Let's just keep buffing up all classes ya know, till the point when they all are too powerful... The devs know what they are doing. Quit complaining and DEAL WITH IT.

Take away provoke, and leave WAR as is. YesPLZ

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Why are so many people against nerfing a class? I don't really get it! Warrior is OP. What don't you people get about it? This is coming from a Warrior. It's not nerfing to fix another class, Warrior is OP in itself. If a Warrior can solo itself all the way to the sipahi turban coffer area and solo the boss, there is something slightly wrong don't you people think?

I love how everyone is just like, buff up Paladin and leave Warrior alone. Let's just keep buffing up all classes ya know, till the point when they all are too powerful... The devs know what they are doing. Quit complaining and DEAL WITH IT.

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your naturally right, these complaints usually come from war happy people who are enjoying the OP ride. When it gets nerfed, these same people will hop on the next OP bandwagon. It's a mindset. Main thing is SE keeps fixing these holes. and we're here to make it clear.

So bring it on SE =P

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Originally Posted by Gennosuke

your naturally right, these complaints usually come from war happy people who are enjoying the OP ride. When it gets nerfed, these same people will hop on the next OP bandwagon. It's a mindset. Main thing is SE keeps fixing these holes. and we're here to make it clear.

So bring it on SE =P

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I know people are entitled to their own opinions... but a lot of opinions in here are just dumb lol.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I know people are entitled to their own opinions... but a lot of opinions in here are just dumb lol.

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I love WAR and agree SC is OP and needs a longer CD

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I know people are entitled to their own opinions... but a lot of opinions in here are just dumb lol.

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Tbh, it was quite bad before, i felt compelled to lvl mrd to 50 and i did, just to be able to participate in content more easily, as much as i hated playing a class i didn't enjoy (ironically tho, i hardly played it at 50, simply coz i don't enjoy it as much), ended up in the mage role which also isn't so much my style. Balance is obviously a serious issue.

Granted though, with the recent class/job patch and improvements to other melee jobs, things have improved now which is great to see, though still not quite there, i think SE is moving in the right direction. So hopefully we'll keep moving towards a more balanced set of jobs.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Why are so many people against nerfing a class? I don't really get it! Warrior is OP. What don't you people get about it? This is coming from a Warrior. It's not nerfing to fix another class, Warrior is OP in itself. If a Warrior can solo itself all the way to the sipahi turban coffer area and solo the boss, there is something slightly wrong don't you people think?

I love how everyone is just like, buff up Paladin and leave Warrior alone. Let's just keep buffing up all classes ya know, till the point when they all are too powerful... The devs know what they are doing. Quit complaining and DEAL WITH IT.

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How can you be so sure it's OP when your only valid point of reference is PLD? Is PLD the "balanced baseline" that any other tanking jobs should be at and if so, why?

You write much but you have no argument.

Besides, Steel Cyclone is only one WAR tool in tanking. It's a good one but hardly a decisive one. It's most potent application is in tanking multiple weak mobs, not in fighting one boss monster. I fail to see how nerfing SC will do anything to shift preferences in tank choices.

Yes, WAR can solo coffers with ease unmatched by any other job, but that's only because coffers happen to be the content that is most aligned with WARs strength (many trash mobs). WAR can do that because that's what the job was designed to do, it's not an oversight.

I think boosting PLD secondary role significantly is a great idea. Imagine if you could keep healing great amount of damage throughout a long fight? It would allow you to run with less WHMs or let the WHMs focus on nuking a lot more.

Are you serious about only tanking ONE boss? Collussion, Antagonize, Provoke, Vengeanence. ALL tanking skills. This is coming from a Warrior and I know how easy it is to single boss tank a mob. If you read it, they are nerfing Collussion as well. On top of that, they are ALSO buffing their DD abilities for Whirlwind and also buffing the effect of Beserk. I mean come on people.

When you think about it like this...

Warrior. Can single/multiple tank with ease AND sucessfully DD at the same
Paladin. Can single/multiple tank with ease AND that's it.

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Originally Posted by Sasagawa

Darkillumina

I have to disagree as the developers said WAR at the min can DD, Hold Emnity, and Tank effectively and also through the crazy critical hits from SC and Rampage it can also heal effectively. With the right gear WARs can do close to 20k damage in a boss fight compared to 4-8k PLDs can do (I know some may be able to push that). All in all even if the PLD does 10k damage in a fight against say misers mistress you can bet the WAR while tanking more effectively through taking less damage due to parry and rampage heals (which are slightly op at the min) will be doing 15k damage. THis is all speculation based on values I hear shouted to me from parsers. fact is WAR does around 5-10k more damage than any PLD while being a btter tank. That my friend is OP and is getting nerfed for good reason tanking ability should go

PLD>WAR>MNK=DRG

DD ability should go MNK=DRG>WAR>>>>>>>>>>>PLD

Right now PLD struggles to compare in shear tanking ability !. now im not saying PLD should be the only tank but I am holding a big shield and I should TAKE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS DAMAGE and in return for holding a heavy shield that protects me I do significantly less damage as well.

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I agree with this, again part of the problem is that WAR is designed to draw enmity with damage which the formula's calculate as being superior to almost anything else. PLD is designed to tank and heal but since they can't output damage as well they can't hold hate as well.

I want this to be fixed, the issue I have is most of the idiots who don't do the research assume that Steel Cyclone is the reason why WAR is a superior tank to PLD. No it's not, the real reason is that the enmity formula's are all messed up and put more priority on damage.

I also have no issue with PLD being a great tank. Having more than one option is great but it needs to be balanced in a way in which one isn't ostracized in place of the other.

Good Post.

DeadRiser you are one of the misinformed ones I'm talking about. Your replies are full of stupid.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Are you serious about only tanking ONE boss?

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You may want to read my post again.

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Originally Posted by Squiggles

pld sucked in XI, should continue the legacy here

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Good call. It was only the most used tank in the game, but good call.

Definitely sucked.

Most people who are okay with war getting nerfed are people who haven't played the job.
War's DD against a single target is slow and awful.

Just because PLD sucks balls it doesn't mean we should nerf war.

Its like... war is great against multiple enemies. That's their thing. People are raging because... it works. Nothing else.
PLD is still going to be a pile of crap even after they nerf WAR.

This is not a solution. Its a straw man move.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Most people who are okay with war getting nerfed are people who haven't played the job.
War's DD against a single target is slow and awful.

Just because PLD sucks balls it doesn't mean we should nerf war.

Its like... war is great against multiple enemies. That's their thing. People are raging because... it works. Nothing else.
PLD is still going to be a pile of crap even after they nerf WAR.

This is not a solution. Its a straw man move.

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I find it hard to believe that any WAR doesn't consider SC being a bit OP with a 30 second cooldown and I play WAR as my main

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Originally Posted by Squiggles

i know its getting toned down, but how exactly? i need to know details, please :confused:

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my bet is a 1min30sec cooldown and slightly weaker w/ a improved dmg whirlwind like they already stated.

will def suck for people that used wars to aoe spam ant queen to death in 2 mins but idc now lol im quitting until 2.0

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Originally Posted by Demoleon

Steel Cyclone isn't necessarily the issue IMO. Sure it could definitely use a higher cooldown, but I think WARs most needed nerf is Rampage. Get rid of Rampage and just have Defender/Beserk.

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the correct answer was posted on page4.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Most people who are okay with war getting nerfed are people who haven't played the job.
War's DD against a single target is slow and awful.

Just because PLD sucks balls it doesn't mean we should nerf war.

Its like... war is great against multiple enemies. That's their thing. People are raging because... it works. Nothing else.
PLD is still going to be a pile of crap even after they nerf WAR.

This is not a solution. Its a straw man move.

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You can't be serious lol. I play Warrior just as much as I play White Mage. It needs a nerf. It's single target damage is not horrible. You have THREE different chain combos to go through. And DID you NOT notice the part where they are buffing whirlwind damage and beserk effect? They are making it a better single target DD obviously, but you are too thick in the head to see that >.>

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Originally Posted by Krausus

I find it hard to believe that any WAR doesn't consider SC being a bit OP with a 30 second cooldown and I play WAR as my main

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We don't see BLM getting a nerf because they can sleepga -> huge damage -> sleepga -> huge damage

SC is awesome. Thats no reason why it should be nerfed.
The job is well balanced and pretty well rounded. I enjoy it very much and makes for a reliable tank. It works.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

You can't be serious lol. I play Warrior just as much as I play White Mage. It needs a nerf. It's single target damage is not horrible. You have THREE different chain combos to go through. And DID you NOT notice the part where they are buffing whirlwind damage and beserk effect? They are making it a better single target DD obviously, but you are too thick in the head to see that >.>

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It seems to me you are too short sighted and "thick in the head" to realize that whirlwind combos with path of the storm only when the second one is done from behind the target; why would I use that when tanking? Whirlwind means squat for tanking when I can do a 3 WS combo for less TP against a 3000 single WS (lets keep in mind that when tanking you can't even combo it)... are you even thinking?

The adjustment on berserk would need to be huge to put warrior on par with the other DD jobs, and that's unlikely.

SC will be adjusted so that tanking won't be that good. And our damage won't be that good either. Warrior will be a jack of all trades and master of none. And because of the duality of berserker this "jack of all trades" will only be able to do one trade at a time. You either tank or you DD.

Unlike red mage on XI it won't have a special ability (such as refresh) that will make it desirable to invite into a party.
Unless you are desperate.

MRD has been Tank-desirable over GLA since the enmity rebalance of 1.18. That is a lot of new content between then and now in which causes paladin to be the black sheep of tanks.

They arent turning MRD into the new black sheep, they are merely trying to get party balance closer to their original intent.

How about less QQing and more "Let's see what it actually looks like once live", eh?"

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Why are so many people against nerfing a class? I don't really get it! Warrior is OP. What don't you people get about it? This is coming from a Warrior. It's not nerfing to fix another class, Warrior is OP in itself. If a Warrior can solo itself all the way to the sipahi turban coffer area and solo the boss, there is something slightly wrong don't you people think?

I love how everyone is just like, buff up Paladin and leave Warrior alone. Let's just keep buffing up all classes ya know, till the point when they all are too powerful... The devs know what they are doing. Quit complaining and DEAL WITH IT.

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If the Devs know what they were doing do you think we would be in this spot? Really?

At this rate all its going to accomplish is putting one class on the sidelines and then what? Another buff and another nerf?

Also, quit complaining and deal with it? Seriously? Why are paladins complaining? Why don't you tell that to them?
I think you're being quite unfair.

I just noticed on a side note, my avatar and world is gone. ; ;

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

How about less QQing and more "Let's see what it actually looks like once live", eh?"

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Shouldn't that go both ways? Yes, dandy, lets close the forums down.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Shouldn't that go both ways? Yes, dandy, lets close the forums down.

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The flaw in your logic is we've had 10 months to see what the enmity reset did after it went live, and even Yoshi admits there is a problem.

There will always be something else to fix. "Perfect" is a myth.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The flaw in your logic is we've had 10 months to see what the enmity reset did after it went live, and even Yoshi admits there is a problem.

There will always be something else to fix. "Perfect" is a myth.

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The only reason yoshi says there's a problem is because of all the PLDs QQing. Instead of buffing PLD properly, as they should, they are nerfing WAR.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

The only reason yoshi says there's a problem is because of all the PLDs QQing. Instead of buffing PLD properly, as they should, they are nerfing WAR.

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They are not nerfing war. You don't give more than what you take and call it a "Nerf" They might increase the cast time but get damage bonus from some where else. A nerf would have been them making war a shit job.

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Originally Posted by Firon

They are not nerfing war. You don't give more than what you take and call it a "Nerf" They might increase the cast time but get damage bonus from some where else. A nerf would have been them making war a shit job.

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1- Whirlwind is 3k TP.
2- Its done from behind to combo.
3- Berserker gives defense down.
^^^^ This makes the adjustments irrelevant from a tanking standpoint.

4- The frontal combo for SC is the most used combo for a WAR. One of the focus points to grab hate and restore HP.

WAR is taking a huge blow with these modifications..,. unless they
-reduce whirlwind's TP cost (against a single enemy for a war to get 3k tp takes a considerable ammount of time),
-enhance its damage,
-MAYBE change from where it needs to be done and
-make the attack up def down on berserk grossly high then it is a nerf.

And it will leave war as the low acc, slow DPS DD and the hard to heal tank (not sure how will grabbing hate will play out after the fix, so I'll abstain from commenting).

The sad part is that pld is so shitty war is likely to still be the best choice when doing ifrit, garuda or moogle...

Um... of course you can use whirlwind combo while tanking.
I solo stuff (even oversized stuff like efts and drakes) all the time and have no issues landing combos from the side and rear.
Turn off target lock, run between his legs, combo, and run back to the front.
Really, its not that difficult. And not a good reason to fear "Warrior is becoming irrelevant".

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Um... of course you can use whirlwind combo while tanking.
I solo stuff (even oversized stuff like efts and drakes) all the time and have no issues landing combos from the side and rear.
Turn off target lock, run between his legs, combo, and run back to the front.
Really, its not that difficult. And not a good reason to fear "Warrior is becoming irrelevant".

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Conical attacks. Party not getting hit.

I'm not talking about mobs that don't last enough to matter.

All I can say is STFU and take it. You can't change their mind. You must suck at Warrior then if you can't do good DD. Just want everything handed to you.

BOO HOO

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

All I can say is STFU and take it. You can't change their mind. You must suck at Warrior then if you can't do good DD. Just want everything handed to you.

BOO HOO

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Apparently you can. Otherwise we wouldn't be where we are.

Also, you are a moron. I'm saying this with the same ground that entitles you to speak about my ability as warrior without even being in the same server.

they probably gonna shrink the aoe area and gimp enmity like they did with mrd when they needed to fix gla.

To me the real issue is that both have fairly close armor ratings and War gets 3 damage mitigation tools (one of which is constant- Rampage) and Pld gets 2 (neither of which are constant. Add to that the immense damage output difference of both classes and you have War trumping Pld through game mechanics. My solution doesn't involve nerfing but making more sense out of the secondary classes they both have access to.

PLD = PUG + GLD + CNJ

WAR = PUG + MRD + LNC

War can still tank through damage while Pld tanks through damage mitigation. The only real requirement is to free up Taunt so all classes have access to it. War gains access to 2 vokes Keen Flurry and Blood for Blood (which they can nullify with Bloodbath and they have the extra HP for) and Feint. Pld gains access to Feather Foot and Second Wind (would take stress off casting interruptions and their MP pool issues they might have).

As it stands, to me anyway, the secondary classes make no sense. You have a War who has never used a shield having access to a class that always uses a shield and a PLD who has access to MRD parry abilities when they can't parry? Just a thought, but I think the above mentioned beats gimping out skills.

lol i have no problem with this changes balance. Let's see how this new change comes...