As a Non-Native English Speaker This Game is the Most Hellish Game I Have Ever Played

My take on this:
1) you don't need to understand every single word in a sentence to understand what is being said. That's basically the first thing that you have to accept when you learn a new language. Even in my mother tongue there are plenty of words I don't know.
2) Urianger's way of speaking is mostly a joke at this point. It's just as funny as Mikoto using her scientific lingo that nobody understands in the Ivalice/Bozja questline.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

This is all Koji Fox, whom is known to be a big showoff. He cares more about letting anyone know just HOW MUCH English he knows than offering a smooth and understandable experience for the player.

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Originally Posted by ValyrianBlood

I have to google soo many words bc they DO use many that have a far more common synonym. First thing that comes to my mind is 5.3 where G'raha speaks of halcyon days. Dude just say happy?

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I agree that accessibility and language barriers are an important consideration for any product, but at the same time, that can stray too far into anti-intellectualism. No one should be shamed out of using a perfectly valid word they know, for fear of offending others who might not know that word. Imagine telling somebody "You shouldn't say that word, because I don't know it." See how ridiculous that is? This is classic Karen behaviour. It's not their fault that they know something you don't. In the same way you can fail a combat encounter, perhaps you can fail a vocabulary encounter. And that's okay! It's not a problem! You have an opportunity to learn from it, and gain experience. Finding out what you don't know is one of the most important things you can do for yourself.

Koji Fox has a specialized skill set in English, and I applaud him for wanting to make full use of his tool kit. He isn't just some random guy who localizes a finished Japanese script and then hijacks it to suit his selfish agenda. He is inseparable from the creative development of the game, as yeast is from bread. He's a ground-level trooper. Did you not see him on stage at Fan Fest, struggling to hold back his emotions as he live-translated Soken's cancer confession? Do you really think he regards all this as just some ego trip?

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Urianger speaks very formally, but his choice of vocab is not difficult at all.

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Difficult? Not really. Unusual though and understandable that someone not versed with the pop-culture idea of ye-olde-english would find confusing. He's supposed to be speaking unnecessarily verbosely while using a non-contemporary lexicon. That's all.
This being obvious when his lines are examined through the lens of another language (likely the source material) are similarly portrayed.

Complaining that he should be simplified and made more understandable is missing the entire point of how he's written though.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I agree that accessibility and language barriers are an important consideration for any product, but at the same time, that can stray too far into anti-intellectualism.

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First: I don't see how making things simple to understand can be called "anti-intellectualism". I don't know why npc dialogue in a videogame should be the place where you go to seek "intellectuality".

Second: If straying too far into that direction is bad then going too far into the opposite direction is bad too, and this style of localization does exactly that. Where you need a deeper understanding of the language and still keep scratching your head at every turn. This isn't just a sprinkle here and there for flavor. The entire game is a maze of ye olde English, pirate talk, etc. Your focus should be in understanding the story and not get too distracted by the quirks of the language.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

It's not their fault that they know something you don't. In the same way you can fail a combat encounter, perhaps you can fail a vocabulary encounter. And that's okay! It's not a problem! You have an opportunity to learn from it, and gain experience. Finding out what you don't know is one of the most important things you can do for yourself.

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I'M TRYING TO PLAY A GAME FFS, NOT TO BE AN ENGLISH MAJOR. Why should the language in the game be a "test", COMPARABLE TO COMBAT?

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

Do you really think he regards all this as just some ego trip?

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The ammount of screen/stage time he gets does reinforce for me the big ego he has and how much he wants to be in everything and be a visible face and do things people will recognize him for. Remember what I said about "invisibility" being a desirable trait in localization? Yeah he goes the total opposite way. I don't mean to say that he shouldn't be recognized for his work. What I say is you shouldn't recognize him in the work. Subtle difference in semantics, but a world of difference in the meaning.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I'M TRYING TO PLAY A GAME FFS, NOT TO BE AN ENGLISH MAJOR. Why should the language in the game be a "test", COMPARABLE TO COMBAT?

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I mean, the combat's not really a test in anything less than Extreme either. (And even that depends on which Extreme.)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I mean, the combat's not really a test in anything less than Extreme either. (And even that depends on which Extreme.)

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...49/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Sicno

This is all Koji Fox, whom is known to be a big showoff. He cares more about letting anyone know just HOW MUCH English he knows than offering a smooth and understandable experience for the player. He LOVES to show you that obscure word he learned yesterday. All those references to pop culture and whatnot on the names of fates and quests? Again, he wants you to know just HOW MUCH he knows. He also wants you to know that HE INVENTED THE DRAGON LANGUAGE so that gives him almighty power to alter the script of the game from what the scenario writers intended to accomodate his own vision (hello, Midgardsormr). He's the one who originally put a super spoiler on the English title for clearing the patch 3.5 main story because he wants you to know HOW CLEVER he is for making a connection to Coils of Bahamut.

They have explained in the past that localization isn't a direct translation and certain things are modified to account for cultural differences. I understand that, I truly do. But what they do in this game goes in really weird directions that don't adhere to those principles. Localization should be as "invisible" as possible. It's not the place for expressing your own knowledge or "creativity". It's just so the players can understand and enjoy the game. If things make sense and the intent of the original writers are understood and it all feels natural then you're doing a good job. But here things are often unintelligible and you can tell there's a heavy hand influencing things.

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You're a funny one! I'm dying over here!

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

It took me a while to get used to type of English used in this game. I believe Final Fantasy 12 and Tactics also make a lot of use of this type of English if i am remembering correctly.

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No wonder I feel at home then.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I'M TRYING TO PLAY A GAME FFS, NOT TO BE AN ENGLISH MAJOR. Why should the language in the game be a "test", COMPARABLE TO COMBAT?

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Apropos of nothing, I now kind of what want Endwalker to introduce a 'debate' mechanic for scholars once we get to Sharlayan. Linguistic combat!

(...yeah I should get some sleep.)

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Difficult? Not really. Unusual though and understandable that someone not versed with the pop-culture idea of ye-olde-english would find confusing.

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While I don't know enough to say if he's speaking it right or not, he's doing it a lot better than the average person whom thinketh thou just sticketh superfluous endings on thy wordeths. (And now my brain hurteth from writing that.)

But yeah. There are times where I don't think it sounds quite right, but at least he uses thou/thy/thee and verb endings correctly (I do, thou dost, it doth) and being able to sift through those is half the battle. And he's gotten better over time.

If nothing else, you can justify that he's apparently picked it up entirely from reading too many old books and not talking to people enough, in which case he might not have a full grasp of the grammar himself.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Second: If straying too far into that direction is bad then going too far into the opposite direction is bad too, and this style of localization does exactly that. Where you need a deeper understanding of the language and still keep scratching your head at every turn. [...] Your focus should be in understanding the story and not get too distracted by the quirks of the language..

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Having a deeper understanding is what stops you from scratching your head in the first place. To me, the wording can be odd but not enough to stumble on.

I think I was looking up more things in the dictionary earlier in in the game, but for me that's honestly appealing. It's interesting to come across new words or to come across them used in an unfamiliar way and learn another application for them.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

This is all Koji Fox, whom is known to be a big showoff. He cares more about letting anyone know just HOW MUCH English he knows than offering a smooth and understandable experience for the player. He LOVES to show you that obscure word he learned yesterday. All those references to pop culture and whatnot on the names of fates and quests? Again, he wants you to know just HOW MUCH he knows. He also wants you to know that HE INVENTED THE DRAGON LANGUAGE so that gives him almighty power to alter the script of the game from what the scenario writers intended to accomodate his own vision (hello, Midgardsormr). He's the one who originally put a super spoiler on the English title for clearing the patch 3.5 main story because he wants you to know HOW CLEVER he is for making a connection to Coils of Bahamut.

They have explained in the past that localization isn't a direct translation and certain things are modified to account for cultural differences. I understand that, I truly do. But what they do in this game goes in really weird directions that don't adhere to those principles. Localization should be as "invisible" as possible. It's not the place for expressing your own knowledge or "creativity". It's just so the players can understand and enjoy the game. If things make sense and the intent of the original writers are understood and it all feels natural then you're doing a good job. But here things are often unintelligible and you can tell there's a heavy hand influencing things.

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Some real bitterness you got going on there.

You ever heard of 'immersion' and 'flavouring'? The characters speak the way that they do because the setting doesn't take place in god damn 1995 Chicago. Characters like Jacke and generally rogue guild/Limsa folks use 'thieves' cant' because it makes sense, they're pirates, outlaws. Generally characters speak in more archaic english because such makes sense in the games setting. It's about, again, immersion and flavouring, I absolutely love that characters don't use contemporary English because the setting is not modern day.

Yes, it being fantasy does not mean they have to use archaic/Shakespearean english, I'll give you that, but neither does it mean that they can't.

Ultimately it comes down to this:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...047986/800.gif

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

Some real bitterness you got going on there.

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Dunno what you mean. I'm a ray of sunshine. Reflected from the blade of a guillotine. :)

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

You ever heard of 'immersion' and 'flavouring'?

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Yeah, I also know if you put too much chile in your tacos you're bound to have a bad time (not from personal experience, mind you).

You know a thing that can break your "immersion"? Stopping to re-read a sentence multiple times before moving on. Having hiccups in your story and having it harder to swallow than it needs to be.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Dunno what you mean. I'm a ray of sunshine. Reflected from the blade of a guillotine. :)



Yeah, I also know if you put too much chile in your tacos you're bound to have a bad time (not from personal experience, mind you).

You know a thing that can break your "immersion"? Stopping to re-read a sentence multiple times before moving on. Having hiccups in your story and having it harder to swallow than it needs to be.

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Please don't put chile into your tacos. Chile is a great country and doesn't deserve to be cannibalized for any sort of mexican food.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Chile is a great country

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Come live down here for a few years and we'll see if you still say the same XD

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

Some real bitterness you got going on there.

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they're bitter because they disagree with a localisation quirk? ...what?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Sounds like you're getting the proper Urianger experience.

Even the other scions shake their heads and make.. "wut?" faces when he talks. He is supposed to be frustratingly arcane and verbose.

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Very true but people do not tend to complain when SE translates the text for dragon speak in the same way. I don't understand why there is this double standard of tolerating to the point of awe when dragons do it but Urianger is considered to be an insufferable pain lol.

I enjoy the diversity in voice over and in text and languages, whenever I can get it in the storyline, its great!

I'm from germany and never had issues with the "olde english" that is used in this game.
In fact I like it.

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Originally Posted by MStowastiqVahlshdeh

Very true but people do not tend to complain when SE translates the text for dragon speak in the same way. I don't understand why there is this double standard of tolerating to the point of awe when dragons do it but Urianger is considered to be an insufferable pain lol.

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Probably because those who can't stand the pseudo-Shakespearian English don't get far enough in the game to talk with any dragons.

I'm a non-native English speaker and this game is one of the most heavenly games I have ever played.

The translation team made Urianger's personality a little different. It didn't stop me from enjoying the game, it's meant to frustrate the reader in terms of understanding what he wants to say.

I’m fairly fluent in English mainly thanks to this game. The “ye old” people talk about helped me improve a lot.
I can now (almost) understand everything Urianger says.

I agree, the English used is not easy. But I say, take it as an opportunity to become more fluent!

Aside from high school basics, I’m self taught. So the advice I can give you is to play with a dictionary (or google translate if you’d prefer, but a dictionary is still better).

I know it sounds annoying and tedious but that’s how I got better. As soon as I tumbled on a word I didn’t know, I’d look for it, and learn every possible way and context this word could be used. I did it repeatedly until I learnt it.

Takes time, but in the end it’s rewarding.

Now it’s up to you whether you want use this method or not. There’s probably better ways, but that’s what worked for me.

:)

Urianger doesn't bother me, but my eyes glaze over whenever I encounter pirate talk. I have a BA in literature, though, so Shakespeare is fine and hillbilly Cpt. Jack Sparrow offends my eyes.

To each their own.

As someone who holds a bachelor's of English, the wording used in the game is not really hard or difficult to understand. Y'all acting like it's reading middle English out here.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

they're bitter because they disagree with a localisation quirk? ...what?

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There's a difference between "I disagree with Koji Fox" and "Koji Fox is a big insufferable show-off, know-it-all, who knows more than I do and I can't stand it".

You get me?

Where you can easily say essential they are making them say quintessential

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quintessential
[ˌkwin(t)əˈsen(t)SHəl]
ADJECTIVE
representing the most perfect or typical example of a quality or class.

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vs

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essential
[əˈsen(t)SHəl]
ADJECTIVE
absolutely necessary; extremely important.

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Those two words have VASTLY different meanings.

A quintessential element is not always essential.

Drinking game: Read through the thread from the first page, and every time someone posts the definitions of "essential" vs "quintessential", take a shot.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Drinking game: Read through the thread from the first page, and every time someone posts the definitions of "essential" vs "quintessential", take a shot.

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I would but I don't want to die of liver failure or alcohol poisoning =P

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I'm from germany and never had issues with the "olde english" that is used in this game.
In fact I like it.

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Think you could do a favour for me?
Could you drop into german language and get some screenshots of Urianger's Dialog using the cutscene book, and maybe include a translation from the german? Is he trying for old germanic or something?

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Think you could do a favour for me?
Could you drop into german language and get some screenshots of Urianger's Dialog using the cutscene book, and maybe include a translation from the german? Is he trying for old germanic or something?

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gimme a few minutes, I'll add an imgur album to my post with some screens

edit: I've watched like 10ish cutscenes with him in it now, from arr up to shb and he talks like anybody else, maybe slightly more formal, but nothing old germanic or archaic words

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

I saw a little more than 'disagree with a localisation quirk', you should read their Koji Fox rant again, if you still can't see the sheer bitterness they have towards the man.. I don't know what to tell you.

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it just reads to me as if it's coming from someone who doesn't like the liberties koji takes when 'translating' it for the english language and of someone who doesn't like his presence during the fanfests and stuff and while I do find his antics cute, I know several people who have no strong feelings towards koji's translations or singing who'd tell you the same, that they find him annoying, cringe or whatever at the events

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

they're bitter because they disagree with a localisation quirk? ...what?

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I saw a little more than 'disagree with a localisation quirk', you should read their Koji Fox rant again, if you still can't see the sheer bitterness they have towards the man.. I don't know what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by Harlot

But isn't this odd don't you think. I wanna play a game, if i wanted to study english with looking at the words i don't know the meaning of and try to learn them i would have just do that. Like i said i would have study english. And isn't it odd to say that in order to understand some of the words you need some what basic knowledge of Shakespeare. Last time i checked mmorpg didn't require knowledge of old, or Shakespeare english.

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You're asking them to dumb down the game into Facebook English because you want to play an English game but not put in the effort to properly learn the language.

How would you like it if I came to you then told you that whatever language you speak should be rewritten so I could understand it.

SE dont translate their game they do a thoughtful localisation, they take time on it, not just cater to the least literate.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

You're asking them to dumb down the game into Facebook English because you want to play an English game but not put in the effort to properly learn the language.

How would you like it if I came to you then told you that whatever language you speak should be rewritten so I could understand it.

SE dont translate their game they do a thoughtful localisation, they take time on it, not just cater to the least literate.

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I wouldn't call it thoughtful localisation tho. From JP into German maybe. But from JP into English it's just Koji Fox bombarding the game with weird accents and jokes for the NA audience. Somewhere in a interview he even said that he told the devs back then to lighten the stuff up in english for the western players cause they like that more. <shrugs>

Edit: Also this leads to some lore issues since people don't know what the original said and what was translated 1:1

What's interesting is that the way Urianger speaks is very close to modern English (Early modern English). Next in difficulty is Middle English (Chaucer's Canterbury Tales), and then finally Old English (Beowulf). Thus, understanding it shouldn't even be difficult for modern English speakers, especially since Shakespeare is still required reading, I hope, in modern US high schools.

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Originally Posted by Lanadra

you should read their Koji Fox rant again

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Maybe you should go read it again, and this time actually read my reasoning and not just focus on me criticising him, but on why I'm doing so. It's not because I woke up one day and said "oh, today I decided to throw a nonsensical tantrum at him just because I have nothing better to do!"

My big gripe is: this is a videogame, it's a creative work. Artists pour their ideas, their flavor and style on it. But while there are many places for expressing such creativity localization is NOT one and that's why I say it should be as "invisible" as possible. You shouldn't be thinking why things are localized in a certain way. You should just be enjoying the game. Usually the less you have to think about it the better job the localization team did. It shouldn't add nor take away things from the game unless necessary for making it understandable or relatable in a different culture.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

in modern US high schools

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And everybody else be damned.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

And everybody else be damned.

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Ever been to a modern US high school? They're pretty damned too.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Maybe you should go read it again, and this time actually read my reasoning and not just focus on me criticising him, but on why I'm doing so. It's not because I woke up one day and said "oh, today I decided to throw a nonsensical tantrum at him just because I have nothing better to do!"

My big gripe is: this is a videogame, it's a creative work. Artists pour their ideas, their flavor and style on it. But while there are many places for expressing such creativity localization is NOT one and that's why I say it should be as "invisible" as possible. You shouldn't be thinking why things are localized in a certain way. You should just be enjoying the game. Usually the less you have to think about it the better job the localization team did. It shouldn't add nor take away things from the game unless necessary for making it understandable or relatable in a different culture.

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Koji Fox is a part of that artistic team you're going on about, and has been since the beginning. The English version isn't a localization of the Japanese version like the old FF translations of Ted Woolsey, both are developed simultaneously. Everything that goes into the English version is agreed upon by the writing team.

Thanks to Koji, I know the etymology of the nautical term "Port."

Thank you, Koji. I think.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Maybe you should go read it again, and this time actually read my reasoning and not just focus on me criticising him, but on why I'm doing so. It's not because I woke up one day and said "oh, today I decided to throw a nonsensical tantrum at him just because I have nothing better to do!"

My big gripe is: this is a videogame, it's a creative work. Artists pour their ideas, their flavor and style on it. But while there are many places for expressing such creativity localization is NOT one and that's why I say it should be as "invisible" as possible. You shouldn't be thinking why things are localized in a certain way. You should just be enjoying the game. Usually the less you have to think about it the better job the localization team did. It shouldn't add nor take away things from the game unless necessary for making it understandable or relatable in a different culture.

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Koji Fox is the co-lead world and lore writer. He doesn't just head the localization. A lot of the lore and writing he provides is made by him and even localized into Japanese.

Also, your idea that localization should be "invisible" is not universally accepted. Cut-and-paste translations of games are just awkward. If past translators didn't take liberties, then we'd still have "Tina" instead of "Terra", Kefka would be considered a "laughing idiot" character like he was in Japan, and we'd have "phantom beasts" instead of "espers". And that's just one translator's work in one game. Translation can give more to the game. For example, the interesting descriptions of the diadem materials in the English version vs "this is a skybuilder material" in Japanese. You may have your own opinions, but you're outnumbered in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Steelbreaker25

Everything that goes into the English version is agreed upon by the writing team.

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And that's why he has been reprimanded multiple times for changing things without prior consultation? Like Haurchefaunt's personality.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

then we'd still have "Tina" instead of "Terra", Kefka would be considered a "laughing idiot" character like he was in Japan, and we'd have "phantom beasts" instead of "espers".

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And have a Midgardsormr that's just testing us instead of being malicious. Oh wait... https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ersus_english/

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

You may have your own opinions, but you're outnumbered in this thread.

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And that matters how? Can you not do any thinking of your own and need to feel vindicated by internet points?

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Originally Posted by Sicno

And have a Midgardsormr that's just testing us instead of being malicious. Oh wait... https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ersus_english/





And that matters how? Can you not do any thinking of your own and need to feel vindicated by internet points?

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Can you grasp those straws any harder?